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If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this.
Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation.
Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! 
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On April 05 2012 01:50 Gosi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 01:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:On April 05 2012 01:27 Treehead wrote:
Artosis as a decent mid-low masters protoss would be meaningful if he hadn't also been trying to qualify for the GSL at one point as zerg, and if he hadn't been playing competitive SC2 most of his life. Keep in mind though, he spends probably 50% of his attention commentating his own game to his audience as he plays :D That should be another challenge in GSL off the record. "Explain your build in perfect detail while you beat some Master's scrub." That might as hard as the chopstick handicap :p I think if he seriously laddered to win that he would make it to GM in no time. I could be wrong, though. Maybe being a pro terran player in bw doesn't automatically make you a GM protoss player in sc2? No, he wouldn't make GM by playing seriously. And when he streams he is playing seriously. He doesn't talk during games, he talks during the replays after the games are played.
Sorry, he must have changed his streaming habits since I last watched. He used to talk during his games all the time, and he would ban people from chat when they would tell him that he was bad because he floated minerals/gas, saying "The only reason that's happening is because I can't focus on playing when I'm explaining the game to you."
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On April 05 2012 01:39 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 00:58 MentalGNT wrote:On April 05 2012 00:01 xrapture wrote:On April 04 2012 23:13 Superneenja wrote:On April 04 2012 21:55 Plansix wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. You won a PvP, the rock paper scissors match up, and the proves Protoss is easy? Great, I won some games as terran during a rage fit too, is I guess both races are super easy. Post your replays I would love to see you beat a Protoss. Terran is my main and I'm telling you you can easily get to Masters by all inning protoss. You'll say this is unfair, but look at PvZ. It's stupid for protoss to even attempt a 'macro game' vs zerg. 1/1/1, 2 rax into reactor starport, and thor/banshee/marine. These 3 all ins are stupidly strong for the little effort required to pull them off. There's really reason to say toss have it easy, when their early game vs Terran is just as hard as our late game vs them. I agree 100 % with the last line. I feel this is the general problem with sc2 TvP. The matchup might be statistically balanced when it comes to winrates, but those statistics hide the real problem with TvP which is that both races are imbalanced(or at the very least favored) at certain points in the game. I play both terran and protoss at roughly the same level(high diamond/low masters). Most of my wins in TvP comes from either defending an allin from the toss, or doing some kind of all-in my self. I feel lost whenever the game goes to the late game, and unless my mechanics are a lot better than my opponent's i usually end up losing. Now on the other hand when i play PvT i feel like i just have to take it to the late game without taking too much damage and i'll probably win. I lose quite a lot of PvT because i fail at defending a push from the terran. I feel very fragile as protoss in the early game, and it definitely feels like the terran has to do less to win with a 1-1-1 / 2rax / thor-banshee-marine than I have to win by defending it. In short: Early game: Terran easy - Protoss hard Late game Terran hard - Protoss easy ^ of course this is quite simplified. But that is generally my experience. I feel like both races require even amounts of skill in general, it just depends on how early/late in the game it is. I feel like most protoss will die early game if they try to be too greedy. I think the main thing to defend early on is to buy yourself time...I see a lot of protoss just fall back and think they can defend in their natural or something which is not going to happen. Pick off marine as he moves out, if he put his mauraders in front, try to cut off his reinforcements... because lets say its a 2 rax, he has to do significant dmg or he will be behind. If he is successful more than likely he will try to expand behind the push, but if he barely does dmg he has to choose whether he expands or all ins in which case P will most likely win either way. I wont say I can stop 1/1/1 or 2rax(especially proxy 2 rax) everytime, but I have done it in the past with higher than avg success rate in plat/diamond.
While true, early game agression is the fear of every protoss and all of my early loses come from the same thing: making an incorrect read of my opponent. It is the same as being to greedy, but I lose equally to early expansions I mistook for agression. Most protoss do not blindly go 1 gate FE unless they are really confident with their micro. Even if I scout no gas for a terran, there is things to fear from them, like a proxy rax or some SCV nonsense. We all have set processes for gathering information, depending on the map, from the stalker poke to zealot-probe runby. And even then those tricks cannot get you perfect information. In I feel that a terrans best bet against a protoss in the early game is to keep them guessing as long as possible. The more they know, the more corners they can cut, like a late observer.
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On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me!
Ghosts can
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On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can
Nice, very informative. It is clear that you put as much effort into this post as the person you are responding to did. I am glad you took the time and effort to clear that up and I am sure it will be a big help in his next TvZ.
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On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can
Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings.
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On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings.
I think Ghosts are pretty amazing, since they move at a reasonable speed, can be upgraded start with enough mana to EMP and can be upgraded to cloak. The templar needs to be upgraded to just storm, which is good. But the grass is always greener.
Also for single colossi to take down 8 times its cost in marines, it would need to kill 48 marines or 24 marauders. I don't think a single colossi can kill 50 supply worth of units on its best day. I also think you would be hard pressed to kill 30 food with a single storm.
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Where did all the terrans go? Simple, to this thread where they whine and that is causing the 1v1 ladder to be terranless because all the terrans are posting here instead of queuing.
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On April 05 2012 02:47 phodacbiet wrote:
Where did all the terrans go? Simple, to this thread where they whine and that is causing the 1v1 ladder to be terranless because all the terrans are posting here instead of queuing.
No no, Terran players (or used to be terrans) are queuing, but with Protoss/Zerg. 
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On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings.
If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal.
And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post.
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On April 05 2012 02:59 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal. And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post.
If you think Ghosts change the game big time in TVP, then you have clearly never played Terran vs a half decent protoss. EMP is basically a non event vs zealot heavy armies. You see pro terrans win games nowadays not because of EMP, but with perfect positioning pre-fight. I've lost many games where I blankted emped their army and lost anyways to mass zealot, zealots with 100 HP are easily enough to crush your army.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings.
Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units.
The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position.
More or less works like this:
Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech.
Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage.
Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing.
The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two.
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On April 05 2012 03:05 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 02:59 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal. And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post. If you think Ghosts change the game big time in TVP, then you have clearly never played Terran vs a half decent protoss. EMP is basically a non event vs zealot heavy armies. You see pro terrans win games nowadays not because of EMP, but with perfect positioning pre-fight. I've lost many games where I blankted emped their army and lost anyways to mass zealot, zealots with 100 HP are easily enough to crush your army.
I see... so that is why pros make a lot of them even though they are expensive. And i'm pretty sure you suck playing terran based on the bolded comment
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On April 05 2012 03:09 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:05 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 02:59 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal. And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post. If you think Ghosts change the game big time in TVP, then you have clearly never played Terran vs a half decent protoss. EMP is basically a non event vs zealot heavy armies. You see pro terrans win games nowadays not because of EMP, but with perfect positioning pre-fight. I've lost many games where I blankted emped their army and lost anyways to mass zealot, zealots with 100 HP are easily enough to crush your army. I see... so that is why pros make a lot of them even though they are expensive. And i'm pretty sure you suck playing terran based on the bolded comment
Actually they make them to snipe/emp the high templar. Sure the EMPs do some damage vs zealot heavy armies, but ghosts do more damage to zealots than marines do just with their attack I believe, also another reason to make them. The point I'm trying to make is that EMP does not win you fights. If your not in a sick concave, if you miss 1 HT with your EMP, if you dont spread and kite properly, EMP is not gonna help you, your gonna be screwed anyways. Don't believe? Go try it.
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On April 05 2012 03:11 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:09 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:05 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 02:59 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal. And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post. If you think Ghosts change the game big time in TVP, then you have clearly never played Terran vs a half decent protoss. EMP is basically a non event vs zealot heavy armies. You see pro terrans win games nowadays not because of EMP, but with perfect positioning pre-fight. I've lost many games where I blankted emped their army and lost anyways to mass zealot, zealots with 100 HP are easily enough to crush your army. I see... so that is why pros make a lot of them even though they are expensive. And i'm pretty sure you suck playing terran based on the bolded comment Actually they make them to snipe/emp the high templar. Sure the EMPs do some damage vs zealot heavy armies, but ghosts do more damage to zealots than marines do just with their attack I believe, also another reason to make them. The point I'm trying to make is that EMP does not win you fights. If your not in a sick concave, if you miss 1 HT with your EMP, if you dont spread and kite properly, EMP is not gonna help you, your gonna be screwed anyways. Don't believe? Go try it.
Exactly. No one is gonna argue that EMP doesn't help, but it doesn't win the battle for you. Only perfect positioning followed by MKP worthy micro can do that for you. Unless, of course, the protoss hides a templar behind the terran army, so as they micro back they, uh... just... explode into showers of blood.
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On April 05 2012 03:11 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:09 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:05 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 02:59 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal. And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post. If you think Ghosts change the game big time in TVP, then you have clearly never played Terran vs a half decent protoss. EMP is basically a non event vs zealot heavy armies. You see pro terrans win games nowadays not because of EMP, but with perfect positioning pre-fight. I've lost many games where I blankted emped their army and lost anyways to mass zealot, zealots with 100 HP are easily enough to crush your army. I see... so that is why pros make a lot of them even though they are expensive. And i'm pretty sure you suck playing terran based on the bolded comment Actually they make them to snipe/emp the high templar. Sure the EMPs do some damage vs zealot heavy armies, but ghosts do more damage to zealots than marines do just with their attack I believe, also another reason to make them. The point I'm trying to make is that EMP does not win you fights. If your not in a sick concave, if you miss 1 HT with your EMP, if you dont spread and kite properly, EMP is not gonna help you, your gonna be screwed anyways. Don't believe? Go try it.
I believe you. I've played terran enough to know that. Im not saying Ghosts will win you the fight. Im saying they are game changers. If the toss relies on HTs and they are sniped, no AoE (which protoss really needs). Why is it hard to beat 1-1-1 for toss? Because toss needs AoE and it is not available when 1-1-1 starts pushing. Archons and zealots are weakened drastically by EMP (especially archons).
Also, I can say the same for any race in you statement. If zealots attacks in the wrong location, if you let chargelots get way farther than your army due to stim kiting, if you miss your storms, if HT got sniped/EMPed, heck, you wont even be able to fire a storm to save you.
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On April 05 2012 03:06 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units. The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position. More or less works like this: Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing. The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two.
I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition.
Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs).
I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish.
So sad.
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On April 05 2012 03:22 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:11 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:09 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:05 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 02:59 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal. And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post. If you think Ghosts change the game big time in TVP, then you have clearly never played Terran vs a half decent protoss. EMP is basically a non event vs zealot heavy armies. You see pro terrans win games nowadays not because of EMP, but with perfect positioning pre-fight. I've lost many games where I blankted emped their army and lost anyways to mass zealot, zealots with 100 HP are easily enough to crush your army. I see... so that is why pros make a lot of them even though they are expensive. And i'm pretty sure you suck playing terran based on the bolded comment Actually they make them to snipe/emp the high templar. Sure the EMPs do some damage vs zealot heavy armies, but ghosts do more damage to zealots than marines do just with their attack I believe, also another reason to make them. The point I'm trying to make is that EMP does not win you fights. If your not in a sick concave, if you miss 1 HT with your EMP, if you dont spread and kite properly, EMP is not gonna help you, your gonna be screwed anyways. Don't believe? Go try it. I believe you. I've played terran enough to know that. Im not saying Ghosts will win you the fight. Im saying they are game changers. If the toss relies on HTs and they are sniped, no AoE (which protoss really needs). Why is it hard to beat 1-1-1 for toss? Because toss needs AoE and it is not available when 1-1-1 starts pushing. Archons and zealots are weakened drastically by EMP (especially archons). Also, I can say the same for any race in you statement. If zealots attacks in the wrong location, if you let chargelots get way farther than your army due to stim kiting, if you miss your storms, if HT got sniped/EMPed, heck, you wont even be able to fire a storm to save you.
Well the situation you describe is the ideal, unfortunately it does not work this way. If your zealots get kited away, if you whiff your storms, if you attack into a concave, you can still win the fight, assuming maxed vs maxed and even upgrades. It shouldnt be this way, but it is. As for zealots, EMP is negligible vs them compared to what it does vs most toss units. Even archons, 1 EMP does a lot less than people think. People still assume EMP hard counters archons, but after the 100 shield and radius nerfs its actually mediocre vs archons, unless you want to emp the same few units 3 times and waste a bunch of energy.
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Has anyone else noticed that TLO's results have gotten way better ever since he switched back to Zerg? Maybe zerg fits him better, Idk, but you can't deny that he has been getting way better results as Z than he was with terran. Would be interesting to see other foreign terrans switch over to other races and see how they do, but I don't think many will try it.
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I'm guessing they all went protoss considering thats all I've been playing this season in silver/gold. haha  But my fav matches always has to be ZvT so It makes me sad I don't see as many.
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EPT
