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On April 04 2012 21:16 Kakaru2 wrote:
The truth is that the Protoss is more forgiving than Terran as the length of the game grows.
And with current maps and metagame this is just too much for too many terran players. Anybody up to mid/high master play this game for fun, not for living, and will not dedicate 12+ hours/day to overcome the bad design of a race which doesn't have viable T3 and is forced to rely on glass canons all game long.
It's posts like this that make me lol the hardest.
You DO realize that one of the major problems with Terran since SC2 came out is the fact that they made their units far too beefy, right?
Don't get it twisted, I'm not asking for BW back, but you're really complaining about glass cannon design when bio wasn't even viable in TvP beyond the 5 min mark, there wasn't a single Terran unit that could fight the Dragoon head-on, instead they had to rely on spider mines and vultures (imagine hellions that did no splash and hit for 4) and siege tanks that were worthless unless sieged.
Terran is THE glass cannon race, that's by design. If that's not something you like, you shouldn't be playing them in the first place.
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On April 04 2012 22:49 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:39 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 22:32 Blazinghand wrote:On April 04 2012 22:30 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' I do realize PvP and ZvZ are (way) more rock-paper-scissors then TvT. But you gotta admit the situation was at least fun. Anyway, even if he faced a PvT and eventually won when he queued as P, you (and many others) would still say it doesn't prove anything yadda, yadda, yadda. The point is: nothing will ever prove anything to you (about the TvP issue). You are not in this thread to discuss or to have your mind changed in any way. You are here to deny. I don't think it's fair to tell someone that he's unable to change his mind out of hand like that. Perhaps DPB's threshold of evidence for changing his position hasn't been reached. Maybe he has a certain idea and he is here to educate others about it so they can make a more informed decision. It's not all about "deny" or "have your mind changed" as the two options. This is a complex multifaceted debate. I don't think you have been following his posts in this thread. And I said "have your mind changed in any way" which means even the slightest change would mean something. Following his posts, I have never ever seen any post ever made change his mind about the issue being discussed even slightly. Every post is replied with the same answer: "This doesn't prove anything". My only question now is: what could ever even slightly change your mind about it? (I know proof is a strong word). That may be your question now, but you did not lead it off that way. Had your originial post been: "It seems that you have quite a high standard of proof. What, if anything would it take to convince you?" This wolud be reasonable. I think this is a reasonable question. This is not what you posted. You informed him of what he thinks rather than in good faith asking for it. Allow me to demonstrate what you should do here. @DarkPlasmaBall, you've presented several strong arguments and do not seem to be swayed easily. It seems that you have quite a high standard of proof. What, if anything would it take to convince you of my position? The second problem is that I think DPB is still reasonable even if he replies to me is that "currently I can't think of anything that would convince me of your position, but I am here to argue my case and present it before the readers" EVEN if he makes that reply, that's still reasonable! He could jsut be here to present his opinion to balance out the terran-heavy thread. THATS TOTALLY REASONABLE. that being said, I will wait to see waht he says. I will not place words in his mouth as you have.
That really is a far more reasonable way to approach things. It always puzzles me why, when Person A refutes Argument X, Person B tends to say "Aha! So you don't believe Argument Y or Z either? How dare you!" What? Those were completely irrelevant...
I've made a few remarks on a few of the topics brought up in the thread (there have been countless topics, and I didn't stick comments everywhere, especially if I couldn't back them up), and I dislike when people generalize comments made about particular topics to opinions made about broad topics.
If someone wants to ask me a direct question or my opinion on a topic, by all means they can do so. And I'd be happy to respond with an answer. But it's annoying when people try to guess what an answer *would hypothetically be*, merely based on largely irrelevant statements I make that were just meant to highlight important comments (or refute flawed posts). ::shrugs::
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On April 04 2012 22:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:30 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' I do realize PvP and ZvZ are (way) more rock-paper-scissors then TvT. But you gotta admit the situation was at least fun. Anyway, even if he faced a PvT and eventually won when he queued as P, you (and many others) would still say it doesn't prove anything yadda, yadda, yadda. The point is: nothing will ever prove anything to you (about the TvP issue). You are not in this thread to discuss or to have your mind changed in any way. You are here to deny. Deny what? You were only furthering a balance-whiner's irrational argument that winning one PvP means that playing Protoss is incredibly easy for anyone who plays Terran. And I was simply pointing out how that's not necessarily the case. It's a ridiculous, emotionally-charged non sequitur. I was denying his argument (with evidence), sure. And I'll continue to do so if another bullshit claim is made. Because that's how open discussions work. Sorry if an element of reality popped in to burst your anti-Protoss bubble, but every post that I've made in this thread has *not* been "lulz Terrans just l2p". They've been far more constructive, they tend to carry an element of truth, and they at least pose questions.
Ok, so answer me: is there anything that would change your opinion in any way about the issue? If he shows a replay winning a PvT in his ladder session, would it change your mind? If nothing would, you might as well say: "It's not true that Terran is harder to play than Protoss, nothing you guys ever show to me will change that." and move along.
The truth is: there is no way to irrefutably proves you that Terran is harder to play than Protoss (at least none that I can think of). Anything can be "refuted" using the anodectal card or some reasoning.
Let's suppose a guy comes here and says: "Oh I was 500 points at masters in the season 5 with Terran and I switched to Protoss/Zerg and now I'm 700 points at masters". This can be "refuted" in so many ways: 1) You just happens to a better player with Protoss/Zerg, it suits better your playstyle. It doesn't prove anything 2) This is anedoctal evidence, you're just one player, it doesn't mean this would happen to everyone. It doesn't prove anything. 3) This season was just easier, you would probably be a 800 points at masters if playing Terran this season. It doesn't prove anything. There are many other arguments that can be made to "refute" his claim.
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On April 04 2012 21:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. You won a PvP, the rock paper scissors match up, and the proves Protoss is easy? Great, I won some games as terran during a rage fit too, is I guess both races are super easy.
Post your replays I would love to see you beat a Protoss.
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On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-'
I agree about PvP being a coin-flip game. However, PvT and PvZ are both much easier (for me, anyway) than TvP and TvZ. PvT is like my favorite match up - chargelot archon rolls anything terran throws at you in the mid game, and then you just tech to colo/storm with like 15 gates on 4 bases and it's over. Plus, upgrades are almost instant as soon as you decide to go double forge and chrono them out. Being behind a Protoss on upgrades is one of the most frustrating things in TvP.
I'm a high diamond Terran player, but I off race quite often, played random in the first few seasons in 1v1 and I still do in team games. I always played random in bw, as well, so maybe that's why transitioning is really easy for me. But it seems to me that Protoss has it really easy (mechanics-wise). Zerg too, I would gladly be a Zerg player or a Protoss player, except for the fact that their mirror matchups just... aren't fun. I feel for Zerg players/Protoss players right now, with a lack of Terran players online they must be getting a lot of mirror matchups, and frankly, that just sucks. TvT may be slow and too much like chess, but at least it still "feels" like a legit matchup where skill matters more than the initial build order.
If anything though, I'm not going to whine about Terran - Terran is, for me, the hardest. But I play it because of the feel of the race. I like to kite with bio, I like massing up giant mech armies, I think floating buildings and add-ons are cool. If anything, I'd just complain that Protoss and Zerg have terrible mirror matchups - if it wasn't like that, I WOULD switch races, cause I'm naturally better at (the mechanics of) both of them.
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On April 04 2012 23:07 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 22:30 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' I do realize PvP and ZvZ are (way) more rock-paper-scissors then TvT. But you gotta admit the situation was at least fun. Anyway, even if he faced a PvT and eventually won when he queued as P, you (and many others) would still say it doesn't prove anything yadda, yadda, yadda. The point is: nothing will ever prove anything to you (about the TvP issue). You are not in this thread to discuss or to have your mind changed in any way. You are here to deny. Deny what? You were only furthering a balance-whiner's irrational argument that winning one PvP means that playing Protoss is incredibly easy for anyone who plays Terran. And I was simply pointing out how that's not necessarily the case. It's a ridiculous, emotionally-charged non sequitur. I was denying his argument (with evidence), sure. And I'll continue to do so if another bullshit claim is made. Because that's how open discussions work. Sorry if an element of reality popped in to burst your anti-Protoss bubble, but every post that I've made in this thread has *not* been "lulz Terrans just l2p". They've been far more constructive, they tend to carry an element of truth, and they at least pose questions. Ok, so answer me: is there anything that would change your opinion in any way about the issue? If he shows a replay winning a PvT in his ladder session, would it change your mind? If nothing would, you might as well say: "It's not true that Terran is harder to play than Protoss, nothing you guys ever show to me will change that." and move along.
What is "the issue"? This is what I've seen so far:
EmilA balance whines and posts on TL. Says TvP is broken in favor of the Protoss. He plays Terran, loses to a Protoss player, then wins a PvP and arrogantly claims that (and I quote) "ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE" (meaning Protoss).
Then I step up and say that winning one PvP doesn't mean that you can claim knowledge of how to play the entire Protoss race properly. I mention how there are two other match-ups, PvZ and PvT, and how- in fact- PvT is actually the relevant match-up in all of this! After all, PvP is coin flippy and PvT (or TvP) is the match-up that he first claimed was broken.
So this is what would personally convince me that Protoss is easier to play than Terran and that TvP is broken in favor of the Protoss:
Take a large sample of current Terran players, across all leagues. Find their win percentages in TvP. Then have them switch to Protoss for a decent period of time (however long it takes them to learn PvT and play a significant number of games) and then find their win percentages at that same league level in PvT.
So if I played 200 TvPs at the diamond level with a 32% win record, and then I played 200 more PvTs at the diamond level with a 76% win record... and this same clear split in win records (perhaps not as drastic, but you get the idea) was relatively constant (or, at least, clearly biased in one direction) across the board of 500 or 1000 or so Terran/ Protoss players, then I'd be convinced.
Run a statistical analysis, etc. Why do I care so much about actual mathematical proof, as opposed to just hearing a little anecdotal evidence and jumping on the bandwagon? Probably because I'm a math guy, and I like data and facts as opposed to jumping to conclusions.
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On April 04 2012 22:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 22:31 Kakaru2 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' Oh, now you're claiming that Protoss is underpowered versus terran and zerg? And you call others balance-whiners? There's a saying around here about seeing the straw in the eyes of others and not seeing the beam in yours. That's not what that says at all. To be able to make claims about a race, you have to be knowledgeable regarding all three match-ups, not just the one mirror match-up that's notoriously rock, paper, scissors. To win a PvP and then claim that *anybody* can play Protoss is utterly ridiculous, because that says nothing about how PvZ or PvT play out. Your straws are only good for grasping. There's a saying around here about reading comprehension skills. And all that is based off of one game. When did we ever take one game as evidence of anything?
Since the very first starcraft 2 battle report.
On April 04 2012 23:02 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 21:16 Kakaru2 wrote:
The truth is that the Protoss is more forgiving than Terran as the length of the game grows.
And with current maps and metagame this is just too much for too many terran players. Anybody up to mid/high master play this game for fun, not for living, and will not dedicate 12+ hours/day to overcome the bad design of a race which doesn't have viable T3 and is forced to rely on glass canons all game long. Terran is THE glass cannon race, that's by design. If that's not something you like, you shouldn't be playing them in the first place.
I wouldn't say that terran is THE glass cannon race, I mean that is for zerg obviously with most of their units being quite weak, but terran can be a glass cannon by choice depending what unit composition you are doing. Bio obviously is a glass cannon composition, but mech on the other hand is very hardy, though mech has many weaknesses (immobility, slow to produce) that the hardy units don't really get to shine that much especially in TvP match up. On TvZ mech can work really well depending on the map, but can still work on maps where it isn't that great.
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On April 04 2012 23:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 23:07 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 22:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 22:30 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' I do realize PvP and ZvZ are (way) more rock-paper-scissors then TvT. But you gotta admit the situation was at least fun. Anyway, even if he faced a PvT and eventually won when he queued as P, you (and many others) would still say it doesn't prove anything yadda, yadda, yadda. The point is: nothing will ever prove anything to you (about the TvP issue). You are not in this thread to discuss or to have your mind changed in any way. You are here to deny. Deny what? You were only furthering a balance-whiner's irrational argument that winning one PvP means that playing Protoss is incredibly easy for anyone who plays Terran. And I was simply pointing out how that's not necessarily the case. It's a ridiculous, emotionally-charged non sequitur. I was denying his argument (with evidence), sure. And I'll continue to do so if another bullshit claim is made. Because that's how open discussions work. Sorry if an element of reality popped in to burst your anti-Protoss bubble, but every post that I've made in this thread has *not* been "lulz Terrans just l2p". They've been far more constructive, they tend to carry an element of truth, and they at least pose questions. Ok, so answer me: is there anything that would change your opinion in any way about the issue? If he shows a replay winning a PvT in his ladder session, would it change your mind? If nothing would, you might as well say: "It's not true that Terran is harder to play than Protoss, nothing you guys ever show to me will change that." and move along. What is "the issue"? This is what I've seen so far: EmilA balance whines and posts on TL. Says TvP is broken in favor of the Protoss. He plays Terran, loses to a Protoss player, then wins a PvP and arrogantly claims that (and I quote) "ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE" (meaning Protoss). Then I step up and say that winning one PvP doesn't mean that you can claim knowledge of how to play the entire Protoss race properly. I mention how there are two other match-ups, PvZ and PvT, and how- in fact- PvT is actually the relevant match-up in all of this! After all, PvP is coin flippy and PvT (or TvP) is the match-up that he first claimed was broken. So this is what would personally convince me that Protoss is easier to play than Terran and that TvP is broken in favor of the Protoss: Take a large sample of current Terran players, across all leagues. Find their win percentages in TvP. Then have them switch to Protoss for a decent period of time (however long it takes them to learn PvT and play a significant number of games) and then find their win percentages at that same league level in PvT. So if I played 200 TvPs at the diamond level with a 32% win record, and then I played 200 more PvTs at the diamond level with a 76% win record... and this same clear split in win records (perhaps not as drastic, but you get the idea) was relatively constant (or, at least, clearly biased in one direction) across the board of 500 or 1000 or so Terran/ Protoss players, then I'd be convinced. Run a statistical analysis, etc. Why do I care so much about actual mathematical proof, as opposed to just hearing a little anecdotal evidence and jumping on the bandwagon? Probably because I'm a math guy, and I like data and facts as opposed to jumping to conclusions.
Ok, I understand your point of view and I like your idea about the experiment. There must be someone to organize this kind of data and present it to us. If we had access to match history, we could find 500/1000 people that swicthed races from and to Terran and check their matchups statistics between seasons.
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I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers!
PS - emila(P) v DPB(T) showmatch gogogo
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On April 04 2012 23:31 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 23:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 23:07 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 22:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 22:30 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' I do realize PvP and ZvZ are (way) more rock-paper-scissors then TvT. But you gotta admit the situation was at least fun. Anyway, even if he faced a PvT and eventually won when he queued as P, you (and many others) would still say it doesn't prove anything yadda, yadda, yadda. The point is: nothing will ever prove anything to you (about the TvP issue). You are not in this thread to discuss or to have your mind changed in any way. You are here to deny. Deny what? You were only furthering a balance-whiner's irrational argument that winning one PvP means that playing Protoss is incredibly easy for anyone who plays Terran. And I was simply pointing out how that's not necessarily the case. It's a ridiculous, emotionally-charged non sequitur. I was denying his argument (with evidence), sure. And I'll continue to do so if another bullshit claim is made. Because that's how open discussions work. Sorry if an element of reality popped in to burst your anti-Protoss bubble, but every post that I've made in this thread has *not* been "lulz Terrans just l2p". They've been far more constructive, they tend to carry an element of truth, and they at least pose questions. Ok, so answer me: is there anything that would change your opinion in any way about the issue? If he shows a replay winning a PvT in his ladder session, would it change your mind? If nothing would, you might as well say: "It's not true that Terran is harder to play than Protoss, nothing you guys ever show to me will change that." and move along. What is "the issue"? This is what I've seen so far: EmilA balance whines and posts on TL. Says TvP is broken in favor of the Protoss. He plays Terran, loses to a Protoss player, then wins a PvP and arrogantly claims that (and I quote) "ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE" (meaning Protoss). Then I step up and say that winning one PvP doesn't mean that you can claim knowledge of how to play the entire Protoss race properly. I mention how there are two other match-ups, PvZ and PvT, and how- in fact- PvT is actually the relevant match-up in all of this! After all, PvP is coin flippy and PvT (or TvP) is the match-up that he first claimed was broken. So this is what would personally convince me that Protoss is easier to play than Terran and that TvP is broken in favor of the Protoss: Take a large sample of current Terran players, across all leagues. Find their win percentages in TvP. Then have them switch to Protoss for a decent period of time (however long it takes them to learn PvT and play a significant number of games) and then find their win percentages at that same league level in PvT. So if I played 200 TvPs at the diamond level with a 32% win record, and then I played 200 more PvTs at the diamond level with a 76% win record... and this same clear split in win records (perhaps not as drastic, but you get the idea) was relatively constant (or, at least, clearly biased in one direction) across the board of 500 or 1000 or so Terran/ Protoss players, then I'd be convinced. Run a statistical analysis, etc. Why do I care so much about actual mathematical proof, as opposed to just hearing a little anecdotal evidence and jumping on the bandwagon? Probably because I'm a math guy, and I like data and facts as opposed to jumping to conclusions. Ok, I understand your point of view and I like your idea about the experiment. There must be someone to organize this kind of data and present it to us. If we had access to match history, we could find 500/1000 people that swicthed races from and to Terran and check their matchups statistics between seasons.
And I think any "Race A is easier to play than Race B" claim could be defended with that same experiment using whatever two races are in question. That would personally convince me that there's a problem, anyway.
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On April 04 2012 09:00 YyapSsap wrote:
Im assuming they reverted back to the instant cast because Ts were splitting their way out of it I assume. They should bring back the projectile and adjust the speed of it (or make it deal more damage and slow the units instead). Would be way more exciting to watch (and play against) then the constant instant fungals..
Do EMPs get shot down by PDD? Just curious....
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On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers!
From what someone previously posted, the real Protoss player just did a build order loss (phoenixes) against the arrogant Terran who tried out Protoss (going mass stalker) -___- Plus, if you're at the diamond or master level, regardless of your race, you have the mechanics to use blink or basic micro anyway.
PvP really is that bad.
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Why is Darkplasmaball's opinion reguarded as if he's Dustin Browder?
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On April 04 2012 23:35 Blamajama wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 09:00 YyapSsap wrote:
Im assuming they reverted back to the instant cast because Ts were splitting their way out of it I assume. They should bring back the projectile and adjust the speed of it (or make it deal more damage and slow the units instead). Would be way more exciting to watch (and play against) then the constant instant fungals.. Do EMPs get shot down by PDD? Just curious....
 PDD doesn't shoot down EMPs. However you can watch from that link what it affects if you are interested.
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this thread really, really needs locking now. It's just getting silly.
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On April 04 2012 23:40 joeschmo wrote:
Why is Darkplasmaball's opinion reguarded as if he's Dustin Browder?
I'm his son, so I clearly have a lot of say in balancing the game.
+ Show Spoiler +Just kidding. But someone accused me of never accepting imbalanced or broken match-ups, so I explained what would convince me. I also have no idea what you're talking about.
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On April 04 2012 23:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers! From what someone previously posted, the real Protoss player just did a build order loss (phoenixes) against the arrogant Terran who tried out Protoss (going mass stalker) -___- Plus, if you're at the diamond or master level, regardless of your race, you have the mechanics to use blink or basic micro anyway. PvP really is that bad.
For anyone who disputes this claim, I'd like to refer you to something Huk once said about going into foreign tournaments. He said (paraphrasing) - about the worst thing you can run into in the lower levels is a mid-high masters level protoss. PvP is the type of matchup where sometimes the better player just loses anyway.
On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers!
PS - emila(P) v DPB(T) showmatch gogogo
What's going on here is that you're commenting on playing protoss from seeing the other side of 1/3 of the protoss experience. I'd love watching the expression on your faces when you guys try a-moving charge zealots against zerg. That would make my day. In all honesty, 90% of the thought process suggesting that any race is unfair or super easy is in your head. The other 10% may be indicative of a very small problem for a very short period of time, but nothing more.
Don't believe me? Think protoss is super duper easy? Go play it. You'll find the same thing that Artosis did when he switched a long time ago - switching to protoss isn't going to give you easy wins.
A long time ago, I switched to terran because I thought it was the easy a-move race. After playng it a few months, I found that I could get to the same league I was in while playing protoss, but I couldn't get higher without getting stomped.
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On April 04 2012 23:13 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 21:55 Plansix wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. You won a PvP, the rock paper scissors match up, and the proves Protoss is easy? Great, I won some games as terran during a rage fit too, is I guess both races are super easy. Post your replays I would love to see you beat a Protoss.
Terran is my main and I'm telling you you can easily get to Masters by all inning protoss. You'll say this is unfair, but look at PvZ. It's stupid for protoss to even attempt a 'macro game' vs zerg.
1/1/1, 2 rax into reactor starport, and thor/banshee/marine. These 3 all ins are stupidly strong for the little effort required to pull them off. There's really reason to say toss have it easy, when their early game vs Terran is just as hard as our late game vs them.
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this proposed experiment is way too difficult to perform and impossible in its premise to boot, i mean how to ensure that all switchers play protoss at the exact same level as they did with terran, and that over an extended period of time?
naturally you would have to do it in customgames, because you cannot let mirrormatchups or the zergrace influence this data, but then you would have to preselect a pool of opponents of similar skilllevels, and then you not only need the switchers, but also an equal amount of terrans that do not switch, congratulations, 2000 terrans less on ladder!
that apart from the fact that noone besides day9 or husky maybe could rally so many people, so if you are looking for a set of data of this size, you might as well give up or seriously put a lot of work into it.
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On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers!
PS - emila(P) v DPB(T) showmatch gogogo
I just noticed those Edits 
First of all, MC has claimed several times over that if he played as Terran he would have won the GSL far more times than he already has. Also, the skill ceiling is much higher as Terran than it is as Protoss, which is why Terran does so well in the GSL.
But you're missing the point of this thread. It's not to contest which race does the best at the highest level of play (although I don't think there's any dispute there >.>); this thread talks about the lower leagues and how Terrans believe they're required to do more than their Protoss and Zerg counterparts to keep up at, say, the platinum and diamond levels. That's the premise of this thread, and supposedly many Terrans are race-switching because they cannot do such things.
Also, I have no desire to play as Zerg or Terran. I play as Protoss because I played Protoss in BW and I like the units and the mechanics of the race in SC2 too. There are pros and cons of my race, and I take them in stride. Sometimes I'll play as Zerg or Terran in team games for fun, but obviously that's far different than learning the whole race on the 1v1 ladder. And I would never be so arrogant as to play one game as Terran, and brag about how easy Terran is if I happened to win it (although I don't think there are any coinflip TvX match-ups).
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