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On April 04 2012 23:54 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 23:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers! From what someone previously posted, the real Protoss player just did a build order loss (phoenixes) against the arrogant Terran who tried out Protoss (going mass stalker) -___- Plus, if you're at the diamond or master level, regardless of your race, you have the mechanics to use blink or basic micro anyway. PvP really is that bad. For anyone who disputes this claim, I'd like to refer you to something Huk once said about going into foreign tournaments. He said (paraphrasing) - about the worst thing you can run into in the lower levels is a mid-high masters level protoss. PvP is the type of matchup where sometimes the better player just loses anyway. Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers!
PS - emila(P) v DPB(T) showmatch gogogo What's going on here is that you're commenting on playing protoss from seeing the other side of 1/3 of the protoss experience. I'd love watching the expression on your faces when you guys try a-moving charge zealots against zerg. That would make my day. In all honesty, 90% of the thought process suggesting that any race is unfair or super easy is in your head. The other 10% may be indicative of a very small problem for a very short period of time, but nothing more. Don't believe me? Think protoss is super duper easy? Go play it. You'll find the same thing that Artosis did when he switched a long time ago - switching to protoss isn't going to give you easy wins. A long time ago, I switched to terran because I thought it was the easy a-move race. After playng it a few months, I found that I could get to the same league I was in while playing protoss, but I couldn't get higher without getting stomped.
Actually, Artosis switched to Protoss because he knew he could mechanically handle the race without having to practise at all. Turns out he can, and he is a decent low-mid masters Protoss player. Artosis knew that he would not be able to handle zerg playing once every few weeks, but his ultra defensive turtly Protoss style which requires less mechanics more brain is perfectly suited to him. He once played a PvT on 2 gates for 15 minutes, floating thousands of resources. Didn't matter, because all he had to do was make high tech units and upgrades.
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On April 04 2012 23:54 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 23:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers! From what someone previously posted, the real Protoss player just did a build order loss (phoenixes) against the arrogant Terran who tried out Protoss (going mass stalker) -___- Plus, if you're at the diamond or master level, regardless of your race, you have the mechanics to use blink or basic micro anyway. PvP really is that bad. For anyone who disputes this claim, I'd like to refer you to something Huk once said about going into foreign tournaments. He said (paraphrasing) - about the worst thing you can run into in the lower levels is a mid-high masters level protoss. PvP is the type of matchup where sometimes the better player just loses anyway. Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers!
PS - emila(P) v DPB(T) showmatch gogogo What's going on here is that you're commenting on playing protoss from seeing the other side of 1/3 of the protoss experience. I'd love watching the expression on your faces when you guys try a-moving charge zealots against zerg. That would make my day. In all honesty, 90% of the thought process suggesting that any race is unfair or super easy is in your head. The other 10% may be indicative of a very small problem for a very short period of time, but nothing more. Don't believe me? Think protoss is super duper easy? Go play it. You'll find the same thing that Artosis did when he switched a long time ago - switching to protoss isn't going to give you easy wins.
The thing is I do play it, though I admit not as much as terran. And yes I lose as P also, but I feel it is way more forgiving and unit control is so much easier to me. I think people take A-move too literally, all races have situations where they can a move and win, i just feel like Z and P have more A-move potential than Terran any day, theres just too many units against Terran that can decimate your army in an instance. Try a moving against P or Z as Terran, I'd love watching the expression on your face when you see the majority of your army killed to banelings or storms... and then I'd love to see your face when you are trying to macro but the opponent is remaxed. Everyone will defend their race ofcourse and everyone will have their opinions, when people are winning they will think everything if ok and when they lose their has to be something wrong. I just find it odd that Z complain about P and T also complains about P...in my opinion T takes the most skill to play and that will never change 
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On April 04 2012 14:54 PSiggy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 14:18 xHPx_sc2 wrote:On April 04 2012 12:17 Twistacles wrote:On April 04 2012 11:51 xHPx_sc2 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Go play Protoss then and we'll see how well you do. I could make the same argument about Terran, but then I remembered that I'm not a balance-whiner, so I decided not to. If you played protoss (hint: for more than 1 game) you'd think the same about Terran. *derp* such an easy op race, anybody can a-move bio and throw emp's all over their screen, I queued once as terran, 3raxed (had no idea what i was doing) and won, watch this replay, it's proof that terran is easy just because I could execute a build order win all-in *derp*. How about stop whining about how much better you'd do as Protoss and actually commit to the switch? Play Protoss until the next season as an experiment and we'll see if you can maintain your 1,1k rating. Anyone can. If he has mechanics as terran to be 1.1k, he has mechanics to be at least at the same rating with P. I've met so many Ts that occasionally offrace P and do better... heck, look at DDE, KawaiRice, fenix Err... Neither of those 3 plays Protoss at pro-level afaik... but hey all 3 play Terran at pro level. So by your logic, Terran is easier  I'll use your logic and base my argument on nonsense, here goes: If you're any rating as Protoss, you can get that rating but higher if you switch to Terran. I will now randomly name Protoss players who's offraced for fun as Terran: MC. SaSe. They are both better than DDE, KawaiiRice and Fenix. Which says absolutely nothing, but I just decided to mention it just like you did. Enough of dumb-terran-logic, on to some actual facts. Byun used to play Protoss from beta until the first 3 seasons of GSL. Never even qualified for code A. Then he switched to Terran and instantly from season 4 qualified for code A, on the first try. Got 2nd place in code A, lost 3-4 in the finals (to another Terran, obviously) and got into code S on his first try of code A. Quit acting as if Terran would be harder than Protoss, studder stepping bio and derping limitless EMPs all over the Protoss army with your 15ghosts isn't hard. Protoss players actually have to micro rather than "amove move amove move". But you wouldn't know because you're Terran. (hint: I'm not being 100% serious about this paragraph, just copying the Terran-logic again of judging the difficulty of a certain race by.. looking at it rather than playing it.) It feels sort of pointless arguing race-difficulty in a forumthread that is completely made for Terran-Circlejerking... But I'm just saying, going "hey, that race that I don't play is really easy. I know because... when I look at other people play it, it looks easy... 'n stuff" makes you look really dumb. Well, there are posts in this thread where Terran players (mostly masters as far as I noticed) try to play protoss and claim it to be easier while they can achieve more with the race. That was just reaction to your "Quit acting as if Terran would be harder than Protoss, studder stepping bio and derping limitless EMPs all over the Protoss army with your 15ghosts isn't hard". Seriously, try throwing down 15 EMPs :-) By the time you throw down the 15th, your army would be probably dead cause you didn't kite from chargelots :-) But who am I to judge, right? OK, here is what thorzain said: " I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me!". His comment can be found here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=270769 . Seriously, stop saying the things are not difficult when you have never obviously tried!
Good job missing
(hint: I'm not being 100% serious about this paragraph, just copying the Terran-logic again of judging the difficulty of a certain race by.. looking at it rather than playing it.)
Next time, attempt to read what you reply to.
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Guys, T v P was always meant to be played with an opener, or, aka "rushes" "one base allins" "cheese". The problem, early on in sc2's life ALL one base openers (warp gate rushes, stim nerfs, proxy ANYTHING nerfs, 1/1/1 was nerfed via observer and immortal buffs etc etc etc) were nerfed into oblivion because people were expanding way too fast. Now we have a metagame where people play "macro games" (or in other words, games where people play passively and sit on their ass doing nothing) and this has lead to serious imbalances, especially in t v p.
If you haven't noticed, Blizzard has been patching t v p late game directly over the past many months. As an example, the stuff people complain about vs protoss right now are all stuff that was never intended to be as strong as it is (like chargelot archon). I guess what I'm saying is, yes, t v p is massively broken in the late game and that was clearly intended. Either deal with it, or just wait for HotS and hope that players figure the game out quicker.
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On April 04 2012 15:53 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 11:51 xHPx_sc2 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Go play Protoss then and we'll see how well you do. I could make the same argument about Terran, but then I remembered that I'm not a balance-whiner, so I decided not to. If you played protoss (hint: for more than 1 game) you'd think the same about Terran. *derp* such an easy op race, anybody can a-move bio and throw emp's all over their screen, I queued once as terran, 3raxed (had no idea what i was doing) and won, watch this replay, it's proof that terran is easy just because I could execute a build order win all-in *derp*. How about stop whining about how much better you'd do as Protoss and actually commit to the switch? Play Protoss until the next season as an experiment and we'll see if you can maintain your 1,1k rating. Wishful thinking from someone in denial with a hurt ego. He queued as Protoss, a race he doesn't even play, and he easily beat the Protoss player who beat his main-race. Denial won't make you feel better forever, unfortunately. To quote another master league who tried Protoss: Show nested quote +1 season ago I "tested the waters" with Protoss to see if the race was as easy as some had claimed.
I put in about 30 games in obs and I took my battle with Protoss to another account. I was able to reach top 8 master with very few games and even had a few GM wins while offracing. I concluded that although Protoss was indeed much easier to play than Terran and I could probably have more success with Protoss, I felt that Protoss was much less fun than Terran.
With that said, I decided to remain with Terran because I enjoy a challenge even if it makes me angry at times, and I refuse like most Terran players that have stayed with the race, not to take the easy way out and play Protoss. Incoming last minute excuses and whine.
Not sure if trolling or extremely dumb xd Anyways, I did the same thing with terran Guess Terran is easier than Protoss now.
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On April 05 2012 00:16 xHPx_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 15:53 DemigodcelpH wrote:On April 04 2012 11:51 xHPx_sc2 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Go play Protoss then and we'll see how well you do. I could make the same argument about Terran, but then I remembered that I'm not a balance-whiner, so I decided not to. If you played protoss (hint: for more than 1 game) you'd think the same about Terran. *derp* such an easy op race, anybody can a-move bio and throw emp's all over their screen, I queued once as terran, 3raxed (had no idea what i was doing) and won, watch this replay, it's proof that terran is easy just because I could execute a build order win all-in *derp*. How about stop whining about how much better you'd do as Protoss and actually commit to the switch? Play Protoss until the next season as an experiment and we'll see if you can maintain your 1,1k rating. Wishful thinking from someone in denial with a hurt ego. He queued as Protoss, a race he doesn't even play, and he easily beat the Protoss player who beat his main-race. Denial won't make you feel better forever, unfortunately. To quote another master league who tried Protoss: 1 season ago I "tested the waters" with Protoss to see if the race was as easy as some had claimed.
I put in about 30 games in obs and I took my battle with Protoss to another account. I was able to reach top 8 master with very few games and even had a few GM wins while offracing. I concluded that although Protoss was indeed much easier to play than Terran and I could probably have more success with Protoss, I felt that Protoss was much less fun than Terran.
With that said, I decided to remain with Terran because I enjoy a challenge even if it makes me angry at times, and I refuse like most Terran players that have stayed with the race, not to take the easy way out and play Protoss. Incoming last minute excuses and whine. Not sure if trolling or extremely dumb xd Anyways, I did the same thing with terran Guess Terran is easier than Protoss now.
Post your replays please...I want to take some notes! thx 
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On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers!
PS - emila(P) v DPB(T) showmatch gogogo
Pally on WoW Terran in sc2 ;D Somebody really has a thing for the easiest race/class!
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On April 05 2012 00:23 xHPx_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers!
PS - emila(P) v DPB(T) showmatch gogogo Pally on WoW Terran in sc2 ;D Somebody really has a thing for the easiest race/class!
Yup, but if I picked Protoss I wouldn't even have to touch my keyboard and mouse till masters... so Terran not easy enough 
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On April 05 2012 00:20 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 00:16 xHPx_sc2 wrote:On April 04 2012 15:53 DemigodcelpH wrote:On April 04 2012 11:51 xHPx_sc2 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Go play Protoss then and we'll see how well you do. I could make the same argument about Terran, but then I remembered that I'm not a balance-whiner, so I decided not to. If you played protoss (hint: for more than 1 game) you'd think the same about Terran. *derp* such an easy op race, anybody can a-move bio and throw emp's all over their screen, I queued once as terran, 3raxed (had no idea what i was doing) and won, watch this replay, it's proof that terran is easy just because I could execute a build order win all-in *derp*. How about stop whining about how much better you'd do as Protoss and actually commit to the switch? Play Protoss until the next season as an experiment and we'll see if you can maintain your 1,1k rating. Wishful thinking from someone in denial with a hurt ego. He queued as Protoss, a race he doesn't even play, and he easily beat the Protoss player who beat his main-race. Denial won't make you feel better forever, unfortunately. To quote another master league who tried Protoss: 1 season ago I "tested the waters" with Protoss to see if the race was as easy as some had claimed.
I put in about 30 games in obs and I took my battle with Protoss to another account. I was able to reach top 8 master with very few games and even had a few GM wins while offracing. I concluded that although Protoss was indeed much easier to play than Terran and I could probably have more success with Protoss, I felt that Protoss was much less fun than Terran.
With that said, I decided to remain with Terran because I enjoy a challenge even if it makes me angry at times, and I refuse like most Terran players that have stayed with the race, not to take the easy way out and play Protoss. Incoming last minute excuses and whine. Not sure if trolling or extremely dumb xd Anyways, I did the same thing with terran Guess Terran is easier than Protoss now. Post your replays please...I want to take some notes! thx
U know virussatiini? I never play Terran. Yet I beat him in TvT so fucking ez as my offrace. Terran is just rediciulously easy.
http://drop.sc/153589
Am I the hero of you terran's days now? =) Owait no. This logic is no longer valid now, right? Seeing as it isn't fair to make fun of how horribly easy Terran is
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1. Who the hell is virussatiini? You mean eSaharaSatiini?
2. I can't see anyone even close to being called Satiini in this replay
3. Mirror matchups are very luck based. Show me beating some high level Protoss or Zerg, then your argument will be valid.
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On April 05 2012 00:23 xHPx_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers!
PS - emila(P) v DPB(T) showmatch gogogo Pally on WoW Terran in sc2 ;D Somebody really has a thing for the easiest race/class!
How the hell is Terran the easiest race?
Edit: Oh, he got banned. When I replied to him he wasn´t nuked.
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On April 05 2012 00:39 Zeetox wrote:
1. Who the hell is virussatiini? You mean eSaharaSatiini?
2. I can't see anyone even close to being called Satiini in this replay
3. Mirror matchups are very luck based. Show me beating some high level Protoss or Zerg, then your argument will be valid.
Read the string of quotes if you are going to comment. That whole conversation started from someone saying the mirror of what he said, so he is making a point of how faulty that was...
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On April 05 2012 00:49 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 00:39 Zeetox wrote:
1. Who the hell is virussatiini? You mean eSaharaSatiini?
2. I can't see anyone even close to being called Satiini in this replay
3. Mirror matchups are very luck based. Show me beating some high level Protoss or Zerg, then your argument will be valid. Read the string of quotes if you are going to comment. That whole conversation started from someone saying the mirror of what he said, so he is making a point of how faulty that was...
Regardless, he claimed he beat a "pro", which I don't even see on the replay... but if he did it would be a feat, but I don't think this is the case. I would find it easier to believe if he won PvT.
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On April 05 2012 00:01 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 23:13 Superneenja wrote:On April 04 2012 21:55 Plansix wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. You won a PvP, the rock paper scissors match up, and the proves Protoss is easy? Great, I won some games as terran during a rage fit too, is I guess both races are super easy. Post your replays I would love to see you beat a Protoss. Terran is my main and I'm telling you you can easily get to Masters by all inning protoss. You'll say this is unfair, but look at PvZ. It's stupid for protoss to even attempt a 'macro game' vs zerg. 1/1/1, 2 rax into reactor starport, and thor/banshee/marine. These 3 all ins are stupidly strong for the little effort required to pull them off. There's really reason to say toss have it easy, when their early game vs Terran is just as hard as our late game vs them.
I agree 100 % with the last line. I feel this is the general problem with sc2 TvP. The matchup might be statistically balanced when it comes to winrates, but those statistics hide the real problem with TvP which is that both races are imbalanced(or at the very least favored) at certain points in the game.
I play both terran and protoss at roughly the same level(high diamond/low masters). Most of my wins in TvP comes from either defending an allin from the toss, or doing some kind of all-in my self. I feel lost whenever the game goes to the late game, and unless my mechanics are a lot better than my opponent's i usually end up losing.
Now on the other hand when i play PvT i feel like i just have to take it to the late game without taking too much damage and i'll probably win. I lose quite a lot of PvT because i fail at defending a push from the terran. I feel very fragile as protoss in the early game, and it definitely feels like the terran has to do less to win with a 1-1-1 / 2rax / thor-banshee-marine than I have to win by defending it.
In short:
Early game:
Terran easy - Protoss hard
Late game
Terran hard - Protoss easy
^ of course this is quite simplified. But that is generally my experience. I feel like both races require even amounts of skill in general, it just depends on how early/late in the game it is.
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It's sad i meet a terran every 100th game ;d, which makes it a really weird match up since I havent practiced it ( high master )
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On April 05 2012 00:58 MentalGNT wrote:
In short:
Early game:
Terran easy - Protoss hard
Late game
Terran hard - Protoss easy
^ of course this is quite simplified. But that is generally my experience. I feel like both races require even amounts of skill in general, it just depends on how early/late in the game it is.
Yes, but...
On April 05 2012 00:15 Neurosis wrote:
Now we have a metagame where people play "macro games" (or in other words, games where people play passively and sit on their ass doing nothing) and this has lead to serious imbalances, especially in t v p.
I fall into that metagame "late game only!" category REALLY bad. So I guess if we just started cheesing/all inning more, TvP would be more balanced. lol, I'm sure the Protoss players are gonna LOVE that :p
I performed my first 1/1/1 build a week ago, and I did it in an obs game just to see if it really was as good as most Protoss players say it is. I won, but it didn't feel easy by any means. But... I guess I just need to work on it more, lol. I think this next week is gonna be full of my doing 1/1/1...
Maybe that's my same issue in TvZ? I should just stop trying to be a boss macro player and just do all-ins every game. Maybe Terran won't feel so hard after all! :p Too bad I have a conscience and I just don't think I can do that.
But maybe it'll get me out of diamond and into masters. I've been in Diamond for a year, I guess it's about time to switch into 1-base mode and take some names! I can either a.) switch to protoss or zerg and I'll get masters in no time (as soon as I update my list of the basic builds), or b.) just stay terran and all-in!
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On April 05 2012 00:10 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 23:54 Treehead wrote:On April 04 2012 23:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers! From what someone previously posted, the real Protoss player just did a build order loss (phoenixes) against the arrogant Terran who tried out Protoss (going mass stalker) -___- Plus, if you're at the diamond or master level, regardless of your race, you have the mechanics to use blink or basic micro anyway. PvP really is that bad. For anyone who disputes this claim, I'd like to refer you to something Huk once said about going into foreign tournaments. He said (paraphrasing) - about the worst thing you can run into in the lower levels is a mid-high masters level protoss. PvP is the type of matchup where sometimes the better player just loses anyway. On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers!
PS - emila(P) v DPB(T) showmatch gogogo What's going on here is that you're commenting on playing protoss from seeing the other side of 1/3 of the protoss experience. I'd love watching the expression on your faces when you guys try a-moving charge zealots against zerg. That would make my day. In all honesty, 90% of the thought process suggesting that any race is unfair or super easy is in your head. The other 10% may be indicative of a very small problem for a very short period of time, but nothing more. Don't believe me? Think protoss is super duper easy? Go play it. You'll find the same thing that Artosis did when he switched a long time ago - switching to protoss isn't going to give you easy wins. The thing is I do play it, though I admit not as much as terran. And yes I lose as P also, but I feel it is way more forgiving and unit control is so much easier to me. I think people take A-move too literally, all races have situations where they can a move and win, i just feel like Z and P have more A-move potential than Terran any day, theres just too many units against Terran that can decimate your army in an instance. Try a moving against P or Z as Terran, I'd love watching the expression on your face when you see the majority of your army killed to banelings or storms... and then I'd love to see your face when you are trying to macro but the opponent is remaxed. Everyone will defend their race ofcourse and everyone will have their opinions, when people are winning they will think everything if ok and when they lose their has to be something wrong. I just find it odd that Z complain about P and T also complains about P...in my opinion T takes the most skill to play and that will never change
If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this.
On April 05 2012 00:07 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 23:54 Treehead wrote:On April 04 2012 23:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers! From what someone previously posted, the real Protoss player just did a build order loss (phoenixes) against the arrogant Terran who tried out Protoss (going mass stalker) -___- Plus, if you're at the diamond or master level, regardless of your race, you have the mechanics to use blink or basic micro anyway. PvP really is that bad. For anyone who disputes this claim, I'd like to refer you to something Huk once said about going into foreign tournaments. He said (paraphrasing) - about the worst thing you can run into in the lower levels is a mid-high masters level protoss. PvP is the type of matchup where sometimes the better player just loses anyway. On April 04 2012 23:33 Superneenja wrote:
I think what's happening is that we are hurting protoss player egos. They have been thinking that they are playing at a certain skill level, but in comparison it just doesn't fit, to me anyway. In all honesty, if I played protoss I would feel my pride was on the line if people said my race was easy, which may be the case or not, but my opinion is it is easier.(felt like when I played pally in WoW)
I agree that PvP is a coin flip and that one game won't really matter, but come on, the opponent was a master's player it's his main race and should be playing PvPing hell of a lot more and shouldn't be losing against someone off racing.
I think someone needs to just switch from T to P and win the GSL and then we will have believers!
PS - emila(P) v DPB(T) showmatch gogogo What's going on here is that you're commenting on playing protoss from seeing the other side of 1/3 of the protoss experience. I'd love watching the expression on your faces when you guys try a-moving charge zealots against zerg. That would make my day. In all honesty, 90% of the thought process suggesting that any race is unfair or super easy is in your head. The other 10% may be indicative of a very small problem for a very short period of time, but nothing more. Don't believe me? Think protoss is super duper easy? Go play it. You'll find the same thing that Artosis did when he switched a long time ago - switching to protoss isn't going to give you easy wins. A long time ago, I switched to terran because I thought it was the easy a-move race. After playng it a few months, I found that I could get to the same league I was in while playing protoss, but I couldn't get higher without getting stomped. Actually, Artosis switched to Protoss because he knew he could mechanically handle the race without having to practise at all. Turns out he can, and he is a decent low-mid masters Protoss player. Artosis knew that he would not be able to handle zerg playing once every few weeks, but his ultra defensive turtly Protoss style which requires less mechanics more brain is perfectly suited to him. He once played a PvT on 2 gates for 15 minutes, floating thousands of resources. Didn't matter, because all he had to do was make high tech units and upgrades.
Artosis as a decent mid-low masters protoss would be meaningful if he hadn't also been trying to qualify for the GSL at one point as zerg, and if he hadn't been playing competitive SC most of his life. I would love to see the game you are referring to, as I'd love to believe that a person could get away with building 4 food of units every 40 seconds for about 11 minutes and still be safe. Doing the math, this means he only had a little less than 70 food in army at the 15 minute mark. If this happened, it means that the terran must have lost a ton of units to well placed FFs again and again and again. At that point, it seems like we're discussing something on the order of whether rallying marines 1 at a time to the protoss base should be capable of taking out a P on 2 gates, which doesn't even seem worth talking about.
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On April 05 2012 00:58 MentalGNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 00:01 xrapture wrote:On April 04 2012 23:13 Superneenja wrote:On April 04 2012 21:55 Plansix wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. You won a PvP, the rock paper scissors match up, and the proves Protoss is easy? Great, I won some games as terran during a rage fit too, is I guess both races are super easy. Post your replays I would love to see you beat a Protoss. Terran is my main and I'm telling you you can easily get to Masters by all inning protoss. You'll say this is unfair, but look at PvZ. It's stupid for protoss to even attempt a 'macro game' vs zerg. 1/1/1, 2 rax into reactor starport, and thor/banshee/marine. These 3 all ins are stupidly strong for the little effort required to pull them off. There's really reason to say toss have it easy, when their early game vs Terran is just as hard as our late game vs them. I agree 100 % with the last line. I feel this is the general problem with sc2 TvP. The matchup might be statistically balanced when it comes to winrates, but those statistics hide the real problem with TvP which is that both races are imbalanced(or at the very least favored) at certain points in the game. I play both terran and protoss at roughly the same level(high diamond/low masters). Most of my wins in TvP comes from either defending an allin from the toss, or doing some kind of all-in my self. I feel lost whenever the game goes to the late game, and unless my mechanics are a lot better than my opponent's i usually end up losing. Now on the other hand when i play PvT i feel like i just have to take it to the late game without taking too much damage and i'll probably win. I lose quite a lot of PvT because i fail at defending a push from the terran. I feel very fragile as protoss in the early game, and it definitely feels like the terran has to do less to win with a 1-1-1 / 2rax / thor-banshee-marine than I have to win by defending it. In short: Early game: Terran easy - Protoss hard Late game Terran hard - Protoss easy ^ of course this is quite simplified. But that is generally my experience. I feel like both races require even amounts of skill in general, it just depends on how early/late in the game it is.
I feel like most protoss will die early game if they try to be too greedy. I think the main thing to defend early on is to buy yourself time...I see a lot of protoss just fall back and think they can defend in their natural or something which is not going to happen. Pick off marine as he moves out, if he put his mauraders in front, try to cut off his reinforcements... because lets say its a 2 rax, he has to do significant dmg or he will be behind. If he is successful more than likely he will try to expand behind the push, but if he barely does dmg he has to choose whether he expands or all ins in which case P will most likely win either way. I wont say I can stop 1/1/1 or 2rax(especially proxy 2 rax) everytime, but I have done it in the past with higher than avg success rate in plat/diamond.
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On April 05 2012 01:27 Treehead wrote:
Artosis as a decent mid-low masters protoss would be meaningful if he hadn't also been trying to qualify for the GSL at one point as zerg, and if he hadn't been playing competitive SC2 most of his life.
Keep in mind though, he spends probably 50% of his attention commentating his own game to his audience as he plays :D That should be another challenge in GSL off the record. "Explain your build in perfect detail while you beat some Master's scrub." That might as hard as the chopstick handicap :p I think if he seriously laddered to win that he would make it to GM in no time. I could be wrong, though.
Maybe being a pro terran player in bw doesn't automatically make you a GM protoss player in sc2?
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On April 05 2012 01:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 01:27 Treehead wrote:
Artosis as a decent mid-low masters protoss would be meaningful if he hadn't also been trying to qualify for the GSL at one point as zerg, and if he hadn't been playing competitive SC2 most of his life. Keep in mind though, he spends probably 50% of his attention commentating his own game to his audience as he plays :D That should be another challenge in GSL off the record. "Explain your build in perfect detail while you beat some Master's scrub." That might as hard as the chopstick handicap :p I think if he seriously laddered to win that he would make it to GM in no time. I could be wrong, though. Maybe being a pro terran player in bw doesn't automatically make you a GM protoss player in sc2?
No, he wouldn't make GM by playing seriously. And when he streams he is playing seriously. He doesn't talk during games, he talks during the replays after the games are played.
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EPT
