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On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._.
That second replay is one of the funniest things I've seen in awhile, thanks for the laugh.
Terran brotherhood.
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On April 04 2012 11:51 xHPx_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Go play Protoss then and we'll see how well you do. I could make the same argument about Terran, but then I remembered that I'm not a balance-whiner, so I decided not to. If you played protoss (hint: for more than 1 game) you'd think the same about Terran. *derp* such an easy op race, anybody can a-move bio and throw emp's all over their screen, I queued once as terran, 3raxed (had no idea what i was doing) and won, watch this replay, it's proof that terran is easy just because I could execute a build order win all-in *derp*. How about stop whining about how much better you'd do as Protoss and actually commit to the switch? Play Protoss until the next season as an experiment and we'll see if you can maintain your 1,1k rating.
Wishful thinking from someone in denial with a hurt ego. 
He queued as Protoss, a race he doesn't even play, and he easily beat the Protoss player who beat his main-race. Denial won't make you feel better forever, unfortunately. To quote another master league who tried Protoss:
1 season ago I "tested the waters" with Protoss to see if the race was as easy as some had claimed.
I put in about 30 games in obs and I took my battle with Protoss to another account. I was able to reach top 8 master with very few games and even had a few GM wins while offracing. I concluded that although Protoss was indeed much easier to play than Terran and I could probably have more success with Protoss, I felt that Protoss was much less fun than Terran.
With that said, I decided to remain with Terran because I enjoy a challenge even if it makes me angry at times, and I refuse like most Terran players that have stayed with the race, not to take the easy way out and play Protoss.
Incoming last minute excuses and whine.
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On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._.
Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win.
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The truth is that the Protoss is more forgiving than Terran as the length of the game grows.
And with current maps and metagame this is just too much for too many terran players. Anybody up to mid/high master play this game for fun, not for living, and will not dedicate 12+ hours/day to overcome the bad design of a race which doesn't have viable T3 and is forced to rely on glass canons all game long.
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On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._.
You sir, are my hero for the day! Thank you for the laugh.
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On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win.
This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays:
Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P.
TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.)
PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build.
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On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build.
I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens.
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On April 04 2012 07:02 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:27 Superneenja wrote:We also have to remember that P and Z will get new units too and will change the whole dynamic of the encounter... Now whats that "scorpion get over here" new unit that Z is getting? Oh and Ultralisk charge?... doesn't sound OP at all to me /sarcasm And notice how Toss is getting enhancements only in air, cause ground is pretty solid right now, minus the whole TvP thing  Assuming the units blizzard presented before are the ones we actually get (and I don't think they will be, but I have no better assumption to work off of so bear with me), Protoss is getting the Tempest, which will have little to no impact in PvT at all, the Oracle which is just a bad version of a harass unit that can literally do nothing else, and The replicator which has the potential to be simultaneously the best and worst unit in existence. The replicator particularly worries me, the others won't change the matchup much at all. The replicator worries me because it will drastically weaken the power of terran tech vs. Protoss and further encourage bio. Why? Because it turns into a fully upgraded copy of whatever unit the protoss wants, the cost being that it is expensive on minerals and gas as well as supply (200/200 with 4 supply). How would you like to fight protoss with cloaked banshees or with ravens? Well, if you make a single one of those units, you're giving Protoss the ability to use those against you, even if you don't research cloak. Make a siege tank? Protoss can build tanks now! Thankfully, I don't think blizzard is ACTUALLY this stupid.
Here is what worries me... a late game toss stashes a few replicants over his expos on a high ground. He puts an observer over your ball and has vision. As soon as he sees your tanks, he morphs into tanks. You won't be able to advance on a protoss.
Or what about a Raven against mass marauder? Just morph, put a PDD down and chargelots will sweep the floor.
Stupidest decision I have seen up until now. Maybe not the morphing itself, but the unlimited range??? C'mon...
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On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._.
You won a PvP, the rock paper scissors match up, and the proves Protoss is easy? Great, I won some games as terran during a rage fit too, is I guess both races are super easy.
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On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens.
You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right?
The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur.
Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-'
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On April 04 2012 15:22 Tsubbi wrote:
what is this? a 200 page terran whine thread after ONE month of being at 45% winrate in one matchup
where did all the terrans go? busy winning tournaments as usual is my guess
Didn't read the thread. The thread does not discuss TLPD ie. tournament results at all.
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On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-'
I do realize PvP and ZvZ are (way) more rock-paper-scissors then TvT. But you gotta admit the situation was at least fun.
Anyway, even if he faced a PvT and eventually won when he queued as P, you (and many others) would still say it doesn't prove anything yadda, yadda, yadda.
The point is: nothing will ever prove anything to you (about the TvP issue). You are not in this thread to discuss or to have your mind changed in any way. You are here to deny.
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On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-'
Oh, now you're claiming that Protoss is underpowered versus terran and zerg? And you call others balance-whiners?
There's a saying around here about seeing the straw in the eyes of others and not seeing the beam in yours.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On April 04 2012 22:30 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' I do realize PvP and ZvZ are (way) more rock-paper-scissors then TvT. But you gotta admit the situation was at least fun. Anyway, even if he faced a PvT and eventually won when he queued as P, you (and many others) would still say it doesn't prove anything yadda, yadda, yadda. The point is: nothing will ever prove anything to you (about the TvP issue). You are not in this thread to discuss or to have your mind changed in any way. You are here to deny.
I don't think it's fair to tell someone that he's unable to change his mind out of hand like that. Perhaps DPB's threshold of evidence for changing his position hasn't been reached. Maybe he has a certain idea and he is here to educate others about it so they can make a more informed decision. It's not all about "deny" or "have your mind changed" as the two options. This is a complex multifaceted debate.
On April 04 2012 22:31 Kakaru2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' Oh, now you're claiming that Protoss is underpowered versus terran and zerg? And you call others balance-whiners? There's a saying around here about seeing the straw in the eyes of others and not seeing the beam in yours.
That is not how I read his final sentence. I read it as "if you are a terran player off-racing as P, you'll find PvP easy to win because it is coinflippy, but PvZ and PvT are more complex matchups."
I believe you were a little overeager to jump on his quote in that regard. Take a moment and don't assume your conversational partners are whiners.
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On April 04 2012 22:32 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:30 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' I do realize PvP and ZvZ are (way) more rock-paper-scissors then TvT. But you gotta admit the situation was at least fun. Anyway, even if he faced a PvT and eventually won when he queued as P, you (and many others) would still say it doesn't prove anything yadda, yadda, yadda. The point is: nothing will ever prove anything to you (about the TvP issue). You are not in this thread to discuss or to have your mind changed in any way. You are here to deny. I don't think it's fair to tell someone that he's unable to change his mind out of hand like that. Perhaps DPB's threshold of evidence for changing his position hasn't been reached. Maybe he has a certain idea and he is here to educate others about it so they can make a more informed decision. It's not all about "deny" or "have your mind changed" as the two options. This is a complex multifaceted debate.
I don't think you have been following his posts in this thread. And I said "have your mind changed in any way" which means even the slightest change would mean something. Following his posts, I have never ever seen any post ever made change his mind about the issue being discussed even slightly. Every post is replied with the same answer: "This doesn't prove anything". My only question now is: what could ever even slightly change your mind about it? (I know proof is a strong word).
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On April 04 2012 22:31 Kakaru2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' Oh, now you're claiming that Protoss is underpowered versus terran and zerg? And you call others balance-whiners? There's a saying around here about seeing the straw in the eyes of others and not seeing the beam in yours.
That's not what that says at all. To be able to make claims about a race, you have to be knowledgeable regarding all three match-ups, not just the one mirror match-up that's notoriously rock, paper, scissors. To win a PvP and then claim that *anybody* can play Protoss is utterly ridiculous, because that says nothing about how PvZ or PvT play out.
Your straws are only good for grasping. There's a saying around here about reading comprehension skills.
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On April 04 2012 22:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:31 Kakaru2 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' Oh, now you're claiming that Protoss is underpowered versus terran and zerg? And you call others balance-whiners? There's a saying around here about seeing the straw in the eyes of others and not seeing the beam in yours. That's not what that says at all. To be able to make claims about a race, you have to be knowledgeable regarding all three match-ups, not just the one mirror match-up that's notoriously rock, paper, scissors. To win a PvP and then claim that *anybody* can play Protoss is utterly ridiculous, because that says nothing about how PvZ or PvT play out. Your straws are only good for grasping. There's a saying around here about reading comprehension skills.
And all that is based off of one game. When did we ever take one game as evidence of anything?
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On April 04 2012 22:39 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:32 Blazinghand wrote:On April 04 2012 22:30 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' I do realize PvP and ZvZ are (way) more rock-paper-scissors then TvT. But you gotta admit the situation was at least fun. Anyway, even if he faced a PvT and eventually won when he queued as P, you (and many others) would still say it doesn't prove anything yadda, yadda, yadda. The point is: nothing will ever prove anything to you (about the TvP issue). You are not in this thread to discuss or to have your mind changed in any way. You are here to deny. I don't think it's fair to tell someone that he's unable to change his mind out of hand like that. Perhaps DPB's threshold of evidence for changing his position hasn't been reached. Maybe he has a certain idea and he is here to educate others about it so they can make a more informed decision. It's not all about "deny" or "have your mind changed" as the two options. This is a complex multifaceted debate. I don't think you have been following his posts in this thread. And I said "have your mind changed in any way" which means even the slightest change would mean something. Following his posts, I have never ever seen any post ever made change his mind about the issue being discussed even slightly. Every post is replied with the same answer: "This doesn't prove anything". My only question now is: what could ever even slightly change your mind about it? (I know proof is a strong word).
That may be your question now, but you did not lead it off that way. Had your originial post been:
"It seems that you have quite a high standard of proof. What, if anything would it take to convince you?"
This wolud be reasonable. I think this is a reasonable question. This is not what you posted. You informed him of what he thinks rather than in good faith asking for it. Allow me to demonstrate what you should do here.
@DarkPlasmaBall, you've presented several strong arguments and do not seem to be swayed easily. It seems that you have quite a high standard of proof. What, if anything would it take to convince you of my position?
The second problem is that I think DPB is still reasonable even if he replies to me is that "currently I can't think of anything that would convince me of your position, but I am here to argue my case and present it before the readers"
EVEN if he makes that reply, that's still reasonable! He could jsut be here to present his opinion to balance out the terran-heavy thread. THATS TOTALLY REASONABLE.
that being said, I will wait to see waht he says. I will not place words in his mouth as you have.
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On April 04 2012 22:30 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' I do realize PvP and ZvZ are (way) more rock-paper-scissors then TvT. But you gotta admit the situation was at least fun. Anyway, even if he faced a PvT and eventually won when he queued as P, you (and many others) would still say it doesn't prove anything yadda, yadda, yadda. The point is: nothing will ever prove anything to you (about the TvP issue). You are not in this thread to discuss or to have your mind changed in any way. You are here to deny.
Deny what? You were only furthering a balance-whiner's irrational argument that winning one PvP means that playing Protoss is incredibly easy for anyone who plays Terran. And I was simply pointing out how that's not necessarily the case. It's a ridiculous, emotionally-charged non sequitur. I was denying his argument (with evidence), sure. And I'll continue to do so if another bullshit claim is made. Because that's how open discussions work. Sorry if an element of reality popped in to burst your anti-Protoss bubble, but every post that I've made in this thread has *not* been "lulz Terrans just l2p". They've been far more constructive, they tend to carry an element of truth, and they at least pose questions.
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On April 04 2012 22:49 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:39 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 22:32 Blazinghand wrote:On April 04 2012 22:30 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 04 2012 21:49 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 21:36 antiRW wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 petro1987 wrote:On April 04 2012 10:42 EmilA wrote:I am so fucking tired of playing this race. Just now I had my biggest ragefit ever from losing to a protoss player. I was 1100 masters EU earlier tonight, now I'm barely over 1000, mass TvPs. Heres me playing TvP on ladder, losing because I don't know why: http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3299&l=da_DKHere's me after having my ragefit from losing that game. I ragequeue as protoss (ANY IDIOT CAN PLAY THIS RACE RIGHT), I get the same P player once more AND I WIN WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT I AM DOING http://www.sc2replays.dk/?show=replays_show&replay_id=3300&l=da_DKGah I am so sad right now, I am so tempted dropping this race. It's absolutely a race exclusively for top tier players, for anyone playing this game casually you get 10x the reward from playing as P ._. Dude that was awesome. Losing TvP with your main? Np, just off-race in their mirror and beat them without even knowing wth you're doing. So much win. This kind of arguments proves absolutely nothing about TvP balance, of course. But I was curious, so I looked at the replays: Basically: Not sure what makes you think that you are "absurdly better" than the P. TvP: It was a pretty even game for the longest time. He went quite greedy with fast storm tech and a quick third. You barely didn't manage to punish him for that. He then reaped the economic benefit of his way earlier third and made a well-timed transition into colossi to hold your push with ghosts. Basically, he played a fast tech/good eco game with borderline thin defense, got away with it and managed to win from there with a superior lategame army and some advantageous engagements (e.g. his stalkers and storms kill your vikings while your bio stands in the fire of four colossi in the final engagement; but he was admittedly ahead before that already.) PvP: You clearly know at least somewhat what you are doing with a three gate blink stalker build, even though it might not be the most efficient version. But more importantly your enemy goes phoenix - to which blink stalker is a good counter (welcome to the hell that is PvP rock/paper/scissors...) - and tries to expand. Same theme as in the first game: Greedy tech and expand with a borderline thin defense. Only this time you punish it with a very aggressive build. I know it doesn't prove anything balance. It was just a fun situation where he happened to off-race and beat the guy that just beat him. You should try it yourself, when you lose to a Terran, try to queue as Terran and see what happens. You realize that TvT and PvP are far different when it comes to mirror match-ups, right? The chance of a non-Protoss (or non-Zerg) player winning a PvP or ZvZ is much higher, because ZvZ and PvP are far more coin flippy and often come down to a single, quick engagement. They're far more unforgiving and more like rocks, paper, scissors. On the other hand, TvT is a much slower, positional game (more like chess) where comebacks are much more likely to occur. Basically, this Terran balance-whiner just bragged that he won a coin-flip game (PvP), which is something even Protosses dislike about the match-up. It also has nothing to do with TvP, which makes it irrelevant. Most importantly, he should try playing PvT for a while before he continues to rage that anyone can play Protoss. Playing Protoss isn't just about winning PvPs. Try winning PvTs and PvZs -.-' I do realize PvP and ZvZ are (way) more rock-paper-scissors then TvT. But you gotta admit the situation was at least fun. Anyway, even if he faced a PvT and eventually won when he queued as P, you (and many others) would still say it doesn't prove anything yadda, yadda, yadda. The point is: nothing will ever prove anything to you (about the TvP issue). You are not in this thread to discuss or to have your mind changed in any way. You are here to deny. I don't think it's fair to tell someone that he's unable to change his mind out of hand like that. Perhaps DPB's threshold of evidence for changing his position hasn't been reached. Maybe he has a certain idea and he is here to educate others about it so they can make a more informed decision. It's not all about "deny" or "have your mind changed" as the two options. This is a complex multifaceted debate. I don't think you have been following his posts in this thread. And I said "have your mind changed in any way" which means even the slightest change would mean something. Following his posts, I have never ever seen any post ever made change his mind about the issue being discussed even slightly. Every post is replied with the same answer: "This doesn't prove anything". My only question now is: what could ever even slightly change your mind about it? (I know proof is a strong word). That may be your question now, but you did not lead it off that way. Had your originial post been: "It seems that you have quite a high standard of proof. What, if anything would it take to convince you?" This wolud be reasonable. I think this is a reasonable question. This is not what you posted. You informed him of what he thinks rather than in good faith asking for it. Allow me to demonstrate what you should do here. @DarkPlasmaBall, you've presented several strong arguments and do not seem to be swayed easily. It seems that you have quite a high standard of proof. What, if anything would it take to convince you of my position? The second problem is that I think DPB is still reasonable even if he replies to me is that "currently I can't think of anything that would convince me of your position, but I am here to argue my case and present it before the readers" EVEN if he makes that reply, that's still reasonable! He could jsut be here to present his opinion to balance out the terran-heavy thread. THATS TOTALLY REASONABLE. that being said, I will wait to see waht he says. I will not place words in his mouth as you have.
I'll put it in a simpler way. Given the history of his posts in this thread, I don't think he is here to have his mind changed in any way. That's why I made the question, If he actually is open minded about the issue, would what change his mind even in the slightest?
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EPT
