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On April 05 2012 03:33 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:22 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:11 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:09 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:05 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 02:59 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me!  Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal. And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post. If you think Ghosts change the game big time in TVP, then you have clearly never played Terran vs a half decent protoss. EMP is basically a non event vs zealot heavy armies. You see pro terrans win games nowadays not because of EMP, but with perfect positioning pre-fight. I've lost many games where I blankted emped their army and lost anyways to mass zealot, zealots with 100 HP are easily enough to crush your army. I see... so that is why pros make a lot of them even though they are expensive. And i'm pretty sure you suck playing terran based on the bolded comment Actually they make them to snipe/emp the high templar. Sure the EMPs do some damage vs zealot heavy armies, but ghosts do more damage to zealots than marines do just with their attack I believe, also another reason to make them. The point I'm trying to make is that EMP does not win you fights. If your not in a sick concave, if you miss 1 HT with your EMP, if you dont spread and kite properly, EMP is not gonna help you, your gonna be screwed anyways. Don't believe? Go try it. I believe you. I've played terran enough to know that. Im not saying Ghosts will win you the fight. Im saying they are game changers. If the toss relies on HTs and they are sniped, no AoE (which protoss really needs). Why is it hard to beat 1-1-1 for toss? Because toss needs AoE and it is not available when 1-1-1 starts pushing. Archons and zealots are weakened drastically by EMP (especially archons). Also, I can say the same for any race in you statement. If zealots attacks in the wrong location, if you let chargelots get way farther than your army due to stim kiting, if you miss your storms, if HT got sniped/EMPed, heck, you wont even be able to fire a storm to save you. Well the situation you describe is the ideal, unfortunately it does not work this way. If your zealots get kited away, if you whiff your storms, if you attack into a concave, you can still win the fight, assuming maxed vs maxed and even upgrades. It shouldnt be this way, but it is. As for zealots, EMP is negligible vs them compared to what it does vs most toss units. Even archons, 1 EMP does a lot less than people think. People still assume EMP hard counters archons, but after the 100 shield and radius nerfs its actually mediocre vs archons, unless you want to emp the same few units 3 times and waste a bunch of energy.
Well if you stand in the storm, then it will destoy you. There's no reason to take all the damage from the storm. And HTs are so slow, if you are stim kiting, HTs won't even have the range to hit the MM with the storm. And you should be kiting due to chargelots. Most of the time, chargelots get stormed.
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On April 05 2012 03:37 IMoperator wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that TLO's results have gotten way better ever since he switched back to Zerg? Maybe zerg fits him better, Idk, but you can't deny that he has been getting way better results as Z than he was with terran. Would be interesting to see other foreign terrans switch over to other races and see how they do, but I don't think many will try it.
Nope; His results have become better since he made a thread about getting rid of his beard and training harder (for Korea) and trying to achieve beard points. Since then he has switched from his "creative" styles into very standard builds, just with a slight note of differentness - pretty cool stuff!
That was after he switched to zerg.
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On April 05 2012 03:42 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:33 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:22 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:11 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:09 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:05 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 02:59 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:[quote] Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal. And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post. If you think Ghosts change the game big time in TVP, then you have clearly never played Terran vs a half decent protoss. EMP is basically a non event vs zealot heavy armies. You see pro terrans win games nowadays not because of EMP, but with perfect positioning pre-fight. I've lost many games where I blankted emped their army and lost anyways to mass zealot, zealots with 100 HP are easily enough to crush your army. I see... so that is why pros make a lot of them even though they are expensive. And i'm pretty sure you suck playing terran based on the bolded comment Actually they make them to snipe/emp the high templar. Sure the EMPs do some damage vs zealot heavy armies, but ghosts do more damage to zealots than marines do just with their attack I believe, also another reason to make them. The point I'm trying to make is that EMP does not win you fights. If your not in a sick concave, if you miss 1 HT with your EMP, if you dont spread and kite properly, EMP is not gonna help you, your gonna be screwed anyways. Don't believe? Go try it. I believe you. I've played terran enough to know that. Im not saying Ghosts will win you the fight. Im saying they are game changers. If the toss relies on HTs and they are sniped, no AoE (which protoss really needs). Why is it hard to beat 1-1-1 for toss? Because toss needs AoE and it is not available when 1-1-1 starts pushing. Archons and zealots are weakened drastically by EMP (especially archons). Also, I can say the same for any race in you statement. If zealots attacks in the wrong location, if you let chargelots get way farther than your army due to stim kiting, if you miss your storms, if HT got sniped/EMPed, heck, you wont even be able to fire a storm to save you. Well the situation you describe is the ideal, unfortunately it does not work this way. If your zealots get kited away, if you whiff your storms, if you attack into a concave, you can still win the fight, assuming maxed vs maxed and even upgrades. It shouldnt be this way, but it is. As for zealots, EMP is negligible vs them compared to what it does vs most toss units. Even archons, 1 EMP does a lot less than people think. People still assume EMP hard counters archons, but after the 100 shield and radius nerfs its actually mediocre vs archons, unless you want to emp the same few units 3 times and waste a bunch of energy. Well if you stand in the storm, then it will destoy you. There's no reason to take all the damage from the storm. And HTs are so slow, if you are stim kiting, HTs won't even have the range to hit the MM with the storm. And you should be kiting due to chargelots. Most of the time, chargelots get stormed.
I wish the mods started punishing ignorance in this thread. I don't even know what to do with this line of reasoning, because I don't see how it fits the thread itself. We're asking about why terrans disappeared. The locus of the phenomena is restricted to plat to mid-master. And now there's someone arguing that HT are bad? Let's forget about the argument itself, how is it relevant? Can you trace it back to the original question? (Not whatever you felt like was wrong on the internet.) If you cannot, perhaps you shouldn't post.
This post has little to do with the posted quote itself, but rather the general decline in the quality of posts in this thread.
It's also sad to see EmiliA banned for posting a replay here. While I didn't think it was a terribly good example because people call his build an all-in, it was still more of a contribution to the thread than the average post currently.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 05 2012 03:26 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:06 Whitewing wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units. The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position. More or less works like this: Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing. The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two. I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition. Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs). I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish. So sad.
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
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On April 05 2012 03:59 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:42 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:33 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:22 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:11 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:09 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:05 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 02:59 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:
[quote]
Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal. And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post. If you think Ghosts change the game big time in TVP, then you have clearly never played Terran vs a half decent protoss. EMP is basically a non event vs zealot heavy armies. You see pro terrans win games nowadays not because of EMP, but with perfect positioning pre-fight. I've lost many games where I blankted emped their army and lost anyways to mass zealot, zealots with 100 HP are easily enough to crush your army. I see... so that is why pros make a lot of them even though they are expensive. And i'm pretty sure you suck playing terran based on the bolded comment Actually they make them to snipe/emp the high templar. Sure the EMPs do some damage vs zealot heavy armies, but ghosts do more damage to zealots than marines do just with their attack I believe, also another reason to make them. The point I'm trying to make is that EMP does not win you fights. If your not in a sick concave, if you miss 1 HT with your EMP, if you dont spread and kite properly, EMP is not gonna help you, your gonna be screwed anyways. Don't believe? Go try it. I believe you. I've played terran enough to know that. Im not saying Ghosts will win you the fight. Im saying they are game changers. If the toss relies on HTs and they are sniped, no AoE (which protoss really needs). Why is it hard to beat 1-1-1 for toss? Because toss needs AoE and it is not available when 1-1-1 starts pushing. Archons and zealots are weakened drastically by EMP (especially archons). Also, I can say the same for any race in you statement. If zealots attacks in the wrong location, if you let chargelots get way farther than your army due to stim kiting, if you miss your storms, if HT got sniped/EMPed, heck, you wont even be able to fire a storm to save you. Well the situation you describe is the ideal, unfortunately it does not work this way. If your zealots get kited away, if you whiff your storms, if you attack into a concave, you can still win the fight, assuming maxed vs maxed and even upgrades. It shouldnt be this way, but it is. As for zealots, EMP is negligible vs them compared to what it does vs most toss units. Even archons, 1 EMP does a lot less than people think. People still assume EMP hard counters archons, but after the 100 shield and radius nerfs its actually mediocre vs archons, unless you want to emp the same few units 3 times and waste a bunch of energy. Well if you stand in the storm, then it will destoy you. There's no reason to take all the damage from the storm. And HTs are so slow, if you are stim kiting, HTs won't even have the range to hit the MM with the storm. And you should be kiting due to chargelots. Most of the time, chargelots get stormed. I wish the mods started punishing ignorance in this thread. I don't even know what to do with this line of reasoning, because I don't see how it fits the thread itself. We're asking about why terrans disappeared. The locus of the phenomena is restricted to plat to mid-master. And now there's someone arguing that HT are bad? Let's forget about the argument itself, how is it relevant? Can you trace it back to the original question? (Not whatever you felt like was wrong on the internet.) If you cannot, perhaps you shouldn't post. This post has little to do with the posted quote itself, but rather the general decline in the quality of posts in this thread. It's also sad to see EmiliA banned for posting a replay here. While I didn't think it was a terribly good example because people call his build an all-in, it was still more of a contribution to the thread than the average post currently.
That's simply not true. The Terran rates on the GM ladders across all regions have fallen in the past few months. I have data if you're gonna question it.
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On April 05 2012 04:10 celeryman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:59 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 05 2012 03:42 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:33 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:22 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:11 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:09 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:05 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 02:59 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:
[quote]
Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal. And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post. If you think Ghosts change the game big time in TVP, then you have clearly never played Terran vs a half decent protoss. EMP is basically a non event vs zealot heavy armies. You see pro terrans win games nowadays not because of EMP, but with perfect positioning pre-fight. I've lost many games where I blankted emped their army and lost anyways to mass zealot, zealots with 100 HP are easily enough to crush your army. I see... so that is why pros make a lot of them even though they are expensive. And i'm pretty sure you suck playing terran based on the bolded comment Actually they make them to snipe/emp the high templar. Sure the EMPs do some damage vs zealot heavy armies, but ghosts do more damage to zealots than marines do just with their attack I believe, also another reason to make them. The point I'm trying to make is that EMP does not win you fights. If your not in a sick concave, if you miss 1 HT with your EMP, if you dont spread and kite properly, EMP is not gonna help you, your gonna be screwed anyways. Don't believe? Go try it. I believe you. I've played terran enough to know that. Im not saying Ghosts will win you the fight. Im saying they are game changers. If the toss relies on HTs and they are sniped, no AoE (which protoss really needs). Why is it hard to beat 1-1-1 for toss? Because toss needs AoE and it is not available when 1-1-1 starts pushing. Archons and zealots are weakened drastically by EMP (especially archons). Also, I can say the same for any race in you statement. If zealots attacks in the wrong location, if you let chargelots get way farther than your army due to stim kiting, if you miss your storms, if HT got sniped/EMPed, heck, you wont even be able to fire a storm to save you. Well the situation you describe is the ideal, unfortunately it does not work this way. If your zealots get kited away, if you whiff your storms, if you attack into a concave, you can still win the fight, assuming maxed vs maxed and even upgrades. It shouldnt be this way, but it is. As for zealots, EMP is negligible vs them compared to what it does vs most toss units. Even archons, 1 EMP does a lot less than people think. People still assume EMP hard counters archons, but after the 100 shield and radius nerfs its actually mediocre vs archons, unless you want to emp the same few units 3 times and waste a bunch of energy. Well if you stand in the storm, then it will destoy you. There's no reason to take all the damage from the storm. And HTs are so slow, if you are stim kiting, HTs won't even have the range to hit the MM with the storm. And you should be kiting due to chargelots. Most of the time, chargelots get stormed. I wish the mods started punishing ignorance in this thread. I don't even know what to do with this line of reasoning, because I don't see how it fits the thread itself. We're asking about why terrans disappeared. The locus of the phenomena is restricted to plat to mid-master. And now there's someone arguing that HT are bad? Let's forget about the argument itself, how is it relevant? Can you trace it back to the original question? (Not whatever you felt like was wrong on the internet.) If you cannot, perhaps you shouldn't post. This post has little to do with the posted quote itself, but rather the general decline in the quality of posts in this thread. It's also sad to see EmiliA banned for posting a replay here. While I didn't think it was a terribly good example because people call his build an all-in, it was still more of a contribution to the thread than the average post currently. That's simply not true. The Terran rates on the GM ladders across all regions have fallen in the past few months. I have data if you're gonna question it.
I confess my own ignorance as the basis of my claim it stops at mid-master, I just had not seen any good data for a claim about higher levels of play (tournament results in Korea are still Terran heavy). But please provide the data, I would like to understand this issue better with the help of more data.
Edit. It seems I have embarrassingly just argued that ignorance should be punished and then confessed my own ignorance.
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On April 05 2012 04:10 celeryman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:59 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 05 2012 03:42 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:33 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:22 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:11 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:09 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:05 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 02:59 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:
[quote]
Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal. And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post. If you think Ghosts change the game big time in TVP, then you have clearly never played Terran vs a half decent protoss. EMP is basically a non event vs zealot heavy armies. You see pro terrans win games nowadays not because of EMP, but with perfect positioning pre-fight. I've lost many games where I blankted emped their army and lost anyways to mass zealot, zealots with 100 HP are easily enough to crush your army. I see... so that is why pros make a lot of them even though they are expensive. And i'm pretty sure you suck playing terran based on the bolded comment Actually they make them to snipe/emp the high templar. Sure the EMPs do some damage vs zealot heavy armies, but ghosts do more damage to zealots than marines do just with their attack I believe, also another reason to make them. The point I'm trying to make is that EMP does not win you fights. If your not in a sick concave, if you miss 1 HT with your EMP, if you dont spread and kite properly, EMP is not gonna help you, your gonna be screwed anyways. Don't believe? Go try it. I believe you. I've played terran enough to know that. Im not saying Ghosts will win you the fight. Im saying they are game changers. If the toss relies on HTs and they are sniped, no AoE (which protoss really needs). Why is it hard to beat 1-1-1 for toss? Because toss needs AoE and it is not available when 1-1-1 starts pushing. Archons and zealots are weakened drastically by EMP (especially archons). Also, I can say the same for any race in you statement. If zealots attacks in the wrong location, if you let chargelots get way farther than your army due to stim kiting, if you miss your storms, if HT got sniped/EMPed, heck, you wont even be able to fire a storm to save you. Well the situation you describe is the ideal, unfortunately it does not work this way. If your zealots get kited away, if you whiff your storms, if you attack into a concave, you can still win the fight, assuming maxed vs maxed and even upgrades. It shouldnt be this way, but it is. As for zealots, EMP is negligible vs them compared to what it does vs most toss units. Even archons, 1 EMP does a lot less than people think. People still assume EMP hard counters archons, but after the 100 shield and radius nerfs its actually mediocre vs archons, unless you want to emp the same few units 3 times and waste a bunch of energy. Well if you stand in the storm, then it will destoy you. There's no reason to take all the damage from the storm. And HTs are so slow, if you are stim kiting, HTs won't even have the range to hit the MM with the storm. And you should be kiting due to chargelots. Most of the time, chargelots get stormed. I wish the mods started punishing ignorance in this thread. I don't even know what to do with this line of reasoning, because I don't see how it fits the thread itself. We're asking about why terrans disappeared. The locus of the phenomena is restricted to plat to mid-master. And now there's someone arguing that HT are bad? Let's forget about the argument itself, how is it relevant? Can you trace it back to the original question? (Not whatever you felt like was wrong on the internet.) If you cannot, perhaps you shouldn't post. This post has little to do with the posted quote itself, but rather the general decline in the quality of posts in this thread. It's also sad to see EmiliA banned for posting a replay here. While I didn't think it was a terribly good example because people call his build an all-in, it was still more of a contribution to the thread than the average post currently. That's simply not true. The Terran rates on the GM ladders across all regions have fallen in the past few months. I have data if you're gonna question it.
GM is the worst example you could use, if you are going to. It is only 200 players and the system favors who gets in first, rather than who is doing well over the season. There are other examples of terrans population decreasing in diamond and plat, but they are not world ending.
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On April 05 2012 03:59 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:42 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:33 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:22 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:11 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:09 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:05 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 02:59 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:
[quote]
Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal. And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post. If you think Ghosts change the game big time in TVP, then you have clearly never played Terran vs a half decent protoss. EMP is basically a non event vs zealot heavy armies. You see pro terrans win games nowadays not because of EMP, but with perfect positioning pre-fight. I've lost many games where I blankted emped their army and lost anyways to mass zealot, zealots with 100 HP are easily enough to crush your army. I see... so that is why pros make a lot of them even though they are expensive. And i'm pretty sure you suck playing terran based on the bolded comment Actually they make them to snipe/emp the high templar. Sure the EMPs do some damage vs zealot heavy armies, but ghosts do more damage to zealots than marines do just with their attack I believe, also another reason to make them. The point I'm trying to make is that EMP does not win you fights. If your not in a sick concave, if you miss 1 HT with your EMP, if you dont spread and kite properly, EMP is not gonna help you, your gonna be screwed anyways. Don't believe? Go try it. I believe you. I've played terran enough to know that. Im not saying Ghosts will win you the fight. Im saying they are game changers. If the toss relies on HTs and they are sniped, no AoE (which protoss really needs). Why is it hard to beat 1-1-1 for toss? Because toss needs AoE and it is not available when 1-1-1 starts pushing. Archons and zealots are weakened drastically by EMP (especially archons). Also, I can say the same for any race in you statement. If zealots attacks in the wrong location, if you let chargelots get way farther than your army due to stim kiting, if you miss your storms, if HT got sniped/EMPed, heck, you wont even be able to fire a storm to save you. Well the situation you describe is the ideal, unfortunately it does not work this way. If your zealots get kited away, if you whiff your storms, if you attack into a concave, you can still win the fight, assuming maxed vs maxed and even upgrades. It shouldnt be this way, but it is. As for zealots, EMP is negligible vs them compared to what it does vs most toss units. Even archons, 1 EMP does a lot less than people think. People still assume EMP hard counters archons, but after the 100 shield and radius nerfs its actually mediocre vs archons, unless you want to emp the same few units 3 times and waste a bunch of energy. Well if you stand in the storm, then it will destoy you. There's no reason to take all the damage from the storm. And HTs are so slow, if you are stim kiting, HTs won't even have the range to hit the MM with the storm. And you should be kiting due to chargelots. Most of the time, chargelots get stormed. I wish the mods started punishing ignorance in this thread. I don't even know what to do with this line of reasoning, because I don't see how it fits the thread itself. We're asking about why terrans disappeared. The locus of the phenomena is restricted to plat to mid-master. And now there's someone arguing that HT are bad? Let's forget about the argument itself, how is it relevant? Can you trace it back to the original question? (Not whatever you felt like was wrong on the internet.) If you cannot, perhaps you shouldn't post. This post has little to do with the posted quote itself, but rather the general decline in the quality of posts in this thread. It's also sad to see EmiliA banned for posting a replay here. While I didn't think it was a terribly good example because people call his build an all-in, it was still more of a contribution to the thread than the average post currently.
If you want to punish ignorance it should be a two way street. There's lots and lots of arguments flying around here both ways that are pretty far out there.
Also EmilA crossed the line, plain and simple. Alot of his posts have been full of exaggerations and borderline whine. Just because you agree with him doesn't mean he shouldn't get a ban for the way he writes and acts on this topic. Also he more or less BMs his opponent in the replay of him winning a lucky PvP.
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On April 05 2012 04:23 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:59 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 05 2012 03:42 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:33 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:22 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:11 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 03:09 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 03:05 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 02:59 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:
[quote]
Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. If you're saying that Ghosts doesn't change the game big time in TvP, then you are in denial. Every Protoss fears Ghosts and for a good reason. Correctly placed EMPs then MM stim obliterates Protoss armies. And if they are relying in HT, EMP, cloak/snipe takes care of the problem. If he transitions to colossus and you weren't prepared for it, that's your fault for not scouting when there's a scan available at your disposal. And doesn't outright die? Gateway compositions totally melt to stimmed MM after EMP. You can't outrun them either 'cause of stim. Had many games lost even though I had HTs due to EMP and snipe. Not saying Ghosts are overpowered but they ARE a game changer which was my answer to a previous question in an earlier post. If you think Ghosts change the game big time in TVP, then you have clearly never played Terran vs a half decent protoss. EMP is basically a non event vs zealot heavy armies. You see pro terrans win games nowadays not because of EMP, but with perfect positioning pre-fight. I've lost many games where I blankted emped their army and lost anyways to mass zealot, zealots with 100 HP are easily enough to crush your army. I see... so that is why pros make a lot of them even though they are expensive. And i'm pretty sure you suck playing terran based on the bolded comment Actually they make them to snipe/emp the high templar. Sure the EMPs do some damage vs zealot heavy armies, but ghosts do more damage to zealots than marines do just with their attack I believe, also another reason to make them. The point I'm trying to make is that EMP does not win you fights. If your not in a sick concave, if you miss 1 HT with your EMP, if you dont spread and kite properly, EMP is not gonna help you, your gonna be screwed anyways. Don't believe? Go try it. I believe you. I've played terran enough to know that. Im not saying Ghosts will win you the fight. Im saying they are game changers. If the toss relies on HTs and they are sniped, no AoE (which protoss really needs). Why is it hard to beat 1-1-1 for toss? Because toss needs AoE and it is not available when 1-1-1 starts pushing. Archons and zealots are weakened drastically by EMP (especially archons). Also, I can say the same for any race in you statement. If zealots attacks in the wrong location, if you let chargelots get way farther than your army due to stim kiting, if you miss your storms, if HT got sniped/EMPed, heck, you wont even be able to fire a storm to save you. Well the situation you describe is the ideal, unfortunately it does not work this way. If your zealots get kited away, if you whiff your storms, if you attack into a concave, you can still win the fight, assuming maxed vs maxed and even upgrades. It shouldnt be this way, but it is. As for zealots, EMP is negligible vs them compared to what it does vs most toss units. Even archons, 1 EMP does a lot less than people think. People still assume EMP hard counters archons, but after the 100 shield and radius nerfs its actually mediocre vs archons, unless you want to emp the same few units 3 times and waste a bunch of energy. Well if you stand in the storm, then it will destoy you. There's no reason to take all the damage from the storm. And HTs are so slow, if you are stim kiting, HTs won't even have the range to hit the MM with the storm. And you should be kiting due to chargelots. Most of the time, chargelots get stormed. I wish the mods started punishing ignorance in this thread. I don't even know what to do with this line of reasoning, because I don't see how it fits the thread itself. We're asking about why terrans disappeared. The locus of the phenomena is restricted to plat to mid-master. And now there's someone arguing that HT are bad? Let's forget about the argument itself, how is it relevant? Can you trace it back to the original question? (Not whatever you felt like was wrong on the internet.) If you cannot, perhaps you shouldn't post. This post has little to do with the posted quote itself, but rather the general decline in the quality of posts in this thread. It's also sad to see EmiliA banned for posting a replay here. While I didn't think it was a terribly good example because people call his build an all-in, it was still more of a contribution to the thread than the average post currently. If you want to punish ignorance it should be a two way street. There's lots and lots of arguments flying around here both ways that are pretty far out there. Also EmilA crossed the line, plain and simple. Alot of his posts have been full of exaggerations and borderline whine. Just because you agree with him doesn't mean he shouldn't get a ban for the way he writes and acts on this topic. Also he more or less BMs his opponent in the replay of him winning a lucky PvP.
I agree with you on EmiliAs ban being unquestionable. I actually think the arguments are more out there than they used to be. Perhaps I'm the geriatric in this thread.
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On April 05 2012 04:08 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:26 Superneenja wrote:On April 05 2012 03:06 Whitewing wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units. The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position. More or less works like this: Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing. The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two. I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition. Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs). I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish. So sad. Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up. And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
I doubt you can call it a counter if you have to do it to keep up...but i think regardless terran will always be 1 upgrade down, possibly 2 if constant chronoboost is used. Not only that, you must not know how much you have to invest to keep up with upgrades all the while being vulnerable to aggressive because of the investment. Also, double forge affects so many units its not even funny, tech switching or throwing some gimmicky play mid/late game for toss is so easy while their upgrades apply to almost every unit. Terrans cant really tech switch... well we can but we would be sitting ducks, but then also have to invest in upgrading those units to scale with your 3/3? that sounds like fun to me.
Also about your argument on T armies annihilating Protoss armies, you didn't include medivacs in there, because without them really you wont have a chance... so my conclusion is IF the Terran has a bio army upgraded with stim, concussion, combat shield and also have medivacs it will annihilate a gateway army? Are you considering HTs, DTs, Archons as gateway units? because if you are not, this engagement is closer than you think... i mean what protoss would stick to sentries, stalker and chargelots only, the natural evolution of protoss composition whichever tech tree they go seems to own Terran. We have basically 2 paths, bio or mech, and mech is a joke.
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Watching his TvP replay as someone who doesn't really play anymore i can spot a bunch of stuff that's been mentioned by Naruto time and time again. Yet EmilA just doesn't want to admit it and even says he is better than his opponent in the end of the TvP. With that kind of mindset i'm not suprised that it's frustrating to play.
The protoss had about equal Blizzard APM in the engagements so that whole argument flies out the window, at least for that specific opponent.
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On April 05 2012 04:08 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:26 Superneenja wrote:On April 05 2012 03:06 Whitewing wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units. The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position. More or less works like this: Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing. The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two. I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition. Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs). I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish. So sad. Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up. And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
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All this thread is now is terran players being upset and confused and protoss players informing them that protoss players are just "better players" all round, that's why they all excel at tvp, rofl.
Edit: it's prob time to put this thread out of its misery
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On April 05 2012 04:46 Fission wrote:
All this thread is now is terran players being upset and confused and protoss players informing them that protoss players are just "better players" all round, that's why they all excel at tvp, rofl.
Maybe i've totally misread the last 50 pages but i'm pretty sure i've seen none of what you're describing.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 05 2012 04:42 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:08 Whitewing wrote:On April 05 2012 03:26 Superneenja wrote:On April 05 2012 03:06 Whitewing wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units. The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position. More or less works like this: Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing. The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two. I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition. Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs). I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish. So sad. Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up. And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies. Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Except that it doesn't work that way at all, terran can hold out quite well with a good defensive position and good micro, how do you think high level terrans win against toss in korea? Having a 2 upgrade lead is not an automatic win for toss, but having a 4 upgrade lead probably is.
You deal with double forge by going double engineering bay and playing carefully so that toss can't exploit it.
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On April 05 2012 04:42 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:08 Whitewing wrote:On April 05 2012 03:26 Superneenja wrote:On April 05 2012 03:06 Whitewing wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units. The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position. More or less works like this: Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing. The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two. I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition. Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs). I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish. So sad. Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up. And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies. Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Out of curiosity, could you please post five of your own games where you just decide to do the old "2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that" strategy in PvT?
As a Protoss player, I would like to copy your build orders, as I don't find the PvT match-up that straightforward.
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On April 05 2012 05:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:42 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 04:08 Whitewing wrote:On April 05 2012 03:26 Superneenja wrote:On April 05 2012 03:06 Whitewing wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units. The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position. More or less works like this: Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing. The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two. I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition. Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs). I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish. So sad. Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up. And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies. Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that. Out of curiosity, could you please post five of your own games where you just decide to do the old "2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that" strategy in PvT? As a Protoss player, I would like to copy your build orders, as I don't find the PvT match-up that straightforward.
Same, I need these build orders that allow me to get up to 2/2 uncontested and then can A-move across the map. They sound really effective.
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On April 05 2012 05:21 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:42 Raambo11 wrote:On April 05 2012 04:08 Whitewing wrote:On April 05 2012 03:26 Superneenja wrote:On April 05 2012 03:06 Whitewing wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units. The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position. More or less works like this: Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing. The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two. I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition. Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs). I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish. So sad. Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up. And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies. Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that. Except that it doesn't work that way at all, terran can hold out quite well with a good defensive position and good micro, how do you think high level terrans win against toss in korea? Having a 2 upgrade lead is not an automatic win for toss, but having a 4 upgrade lead probably is. You deal with double forge by going double engineering bay and playing carefully so that toss can't exploit it.
How do all the Terrans deal with it in korea? Well, either they don't, or they are MKP or have MKP like micro, which I will admit makes it possible to hold off protoss when down in upgrades. Otherwise, don't even bother. I remember a couple games I played recently where I was down like 1/1 from 2/2, I positioned myself in a bottleneck vs basically a pure zealot army and got crushed, it wasn't even close. IMO if you are losing while ahead in upgrades as P your unit composition is wayyyyy off.
Edit: You don't need a build order, and you stay uncontested but that shoudnt be an issue. Most TVP wins come from the midgame where they do a predictable drop in main poke in front. Once you learn to split your units up its pretty easy to stop, and from their your free to chrono 2/2.
Finally, look, its all handy dandy arguing over this point, but the issue remains that you can be ahead in upgrades even if the terran upgrades perfectly alongside you, and there is nothing he can do about it. This is an issue and needs to be addressed, and I would love to hear an argument about why it shouldn't
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My friend got an account into grand masters from proxy 2 gate. Against every race.
On April 05 2012 04:08 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:26 Superneenja wrote:On April 05 2012 03:06 Whitewing wrote:On April 05 2012 02:33 EmilA wrote:On April 05 2012 02:02 pOnarreT wrote:On April 05 2012 01:56 Superneenja wrote:If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this. Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation. Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me! Ghosts can Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings. Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units. The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position. More or less works like this: Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing. The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two. I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition. Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs). I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish. So sad. Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up. And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
I hear of this ability called chrono boost, I'm not sure if you've heard of it
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On April 05 2012 04:42 karpo wrote:
Watching his TvP replay as someone who doesn't really play anymore i can spot a bunch of stuff that's been mentioned by Naruto time and time again. Yet EmilA just doesn't want to admit it and even says he is better than his opponent in the end of the TvP. With that kind of mindset i'm not suprised that it's frustrating to play.
The protoss had about equal Blizzard APM in the engagements so that whole argument flies out the window, at least for that specific opponent.
Blizz APM is meaningless. It essentially counts how many times you click your mouse button. You'll realize that spamming your move commands shoots your APM way up. If you want an accurate measure of APM you need to check through SC2gears.
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EPT
