|
Don't stop. Bump this thread. SC2 would be better off without whiners (whiners = Terran = baby)! Bump this thread!
I'm sure decent Terrans don't post at this thread.
FU Terran whiner players! FU! and not the race! the whiner players! FU lol! whooo that was quite refreshing
C'mon other Z and P, you know you wanna do it! Let's all give a big FU to terran whiners. whooo!!!
Maybe they should be the swarm since the Terran players are like a plague (plague of whiners that is)
|
On April 06 2012 01:58 Naphal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:53 Plansix wrote: The only solution for this is for the game to be made easier so they do not need to improve. the other solution would be to make protoss harder, i must say i really like that approach more.
Protoss is already statistically the worst race in the game, without Zerg far behind.
Making the race harder just so diamond-level Protosses do worse is kind of... not an ideal situation. In my humble opinion.
|
On April 06 2012 01:58 Naphal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:53 Plansix wrote: The only solution for this is for the game to be made easier so they do not need to improve. the other solution would be to make protoss harder, i must say i really like that approach more.
Pretty much the same argument. Make the game harder for my opponent. It would be like a protoss asking for stim to not work on marines and maruaders at the same time, because we have to tab through our units to use our abilities. Its not fair terran can use an ability on two seperate unit types with a single button press. Or medivac shouldn't auto heal and auto target. Or remove auto repair.
But we are not asking for that.
|
On April 06 2012 01:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 06 2012 01:18 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:17 OmegaKnetus wrote:On April 06 2012 01:03 dani` wrote:Even though this is mainly low level Terrans crying, I just want to share some actual statistics (TLPD winrates March, just out): International + Korea (TvP: 54.9% in favor of Terran) Korea Only (TvP: 61.2% in favor of Terran) Now I realize these 54.9% and 61.2% numbers are going to be dismissed incredibly quickly with the usual argument 'Korean Terrans just have sick control', but I wanted to put the stats out here nevertheless Take a look at the tvz graphs... Look at koreans t v z. The place where "good" terrans are. Now whine again? I don't think anyone here is disputing that Terrans have been doing the best at the highest levels of play for nearly the entire history of the game. In both TvZ and TvP. The Terrans here have been very careful to dodge those claims and ignore the highest levels of play, and instead only focus on lower league performance. Interpret that however you want. It may be relevant or it may not. The Game is Imbalanced for Me argument. It is a great argument, because it is almost impossible to argue against because it says "I cannot win at my current skill level because of the requirements of my race. The skills I used to get to this level are no longer sufficent to win. Other people can win, but they are more skilled than me." The only solution for this is for the game to be made easier so they do not need to improve. We are back to this now?Isn't that exactly what came out of this thread? There's a reason people play 5 protoss, 4 zergs and 1 terran every 10 games in the ladder(you can always watch streams like orb's to prove this, vP/vZ all day long since he started streaming), for some mysterious reason (not gonna dive into that, waste of time), terran seems to be harder to play at lower levels, but it's a established thing you know.
|
On April 06 2012 02:01 pOnarreT wrote: Don't stop. Bump this thread. SC2 would be better off without whiners (whiners = Terran = baby)! Bump this thread!
I'm sure decent Terrans don't post at this thread.
FU Terran whiner players! FU! and not the race! the whiner players! FU lol! whooo that was quite refreshing
C'mon other Z and P, you know you wanna do it! Let's all give a big FU to terran whiners. whooo!!!
Maybe they should be the swarm since the Terran players are like a plague (plague of whiners that is)
LOL
|
On April 06 2012 01:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:52 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:50 Noocta wrote:On April 06 2012 01:47 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:44 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:43 SeventhPride wrote: Weird how this thread has went from "Zerg imba!" To "Protoss imba!" Its always been mostly about TvP though :/ This thread was created after the snipe nerf though, but I don't mind. Its entertaining at least, ahhaha, watching protoss and terran having a go at each other. I wonder if we have all forgotten we are actually humans. (And no, I am not saying we are all terrans.) I strictly believe this thread is still here because it prevent the whiners to go somewhere else. Like some kind of catalyst you know. It's because they are not courageous enough. Terran are only for the courageous ones. It is true, there are some truely brave terrans in this thread, who have said they have skills fighting protoss and are able to beat them in open combat at all parts of the game. These terrans have the courage of Russian Dancing Bears. Do I look like one of them?=)
|
On April 06 2012 02:03 R!! wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:53 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 06 2012 01:18 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:17 OmegaKnetus wrote:On April 06 2012 01:03 dani` wrote:Even though this is mainly low level Terrans crying, I just want to share some actual statistics (TLPD winrates March, just out): International + Korea (TvP: 54.9% in favor of Terran) Korea Only (TvP: 61.2% in favor of Terran) Now I realize these 54.9% and 61.2% numbers are going to be dismissed incredibly quickly with the usual argument 'Korean Terrans just have sick control', but I wanted to put the stats out here nevertheless Take a look at the tvz graphs... Look at koreans t v z. The place where "good" terrans are. Now whine again? I don't think anyone here is disputing that Terrans have been doing the best at the highest levels of play for nearly the entire history of the game. In both TvZ and TvP. The Terrans here have been very careful to dodge those claims and ignore the highest levels of play, and instead only focus on lower league performance. Interpret that however you want. It may be relevant or it may not. The Game is Imbalanced for Me argument. It is a great argument, because it is almost impossible to argue against because it says "I cannot win at my current skill level because of the requirements of my race. The skills I used to get to this level are no longer sufficent to win. Other people can win, but they are more skilled than me." The only solution for this is for the game to be made easier so they do not need to improve. We are back to this now?Isn't that exactly what came out of this thread? There's a reason people play 5 protoss, 4 zergs and 1 terran every 10 games in the ladder(you can always watch streams like orb's to prove this, vP/vZ all day long since he started streaming), for some mysterious reason (not gonna dive into that, waste of time), terran seems to be harder to play at lower levels, but it's a established thing you know. I don't know where you have been playing, but I have been facing a lot of terrans today
|
On April 06 2012 01:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:53 Superneenja wrote: I don't think the arguments most of us are making can be easily made into a statistic. Even if we do the whole T and P switch races and play 100 games blah blah blah, people will find something to nullify the argument.
But just for giggles I have another account that I randomed with season 3 or 4, so now I will dedicate that to my protoss account, it was mid diamond before and I have to play a placement match. To make this experiment somewhat valid what steps should i take, stay in diamond or tank and start from bronze? and any other suggestions.(I'm thinking stay in Diamond/Plat) Play both Terran and Protoss in the same league (because obviously Protoss will be easier to use at a lower league) and after you play a lot of matches with both races, post your win percentages
Ok cool, I'll just say I got to diamond faster on that account just playing Z/P already... I want to say in 1/3 the games.
But hoping to start sometime tomorrow or this weekend.
|
On April 06 2012 02:04 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:54 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 01:52 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:50 Noocta wrote:On April 06 2012 01:47 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:44 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:43 SeventhPride wrote: Weird how this thread has went from "Zerg imba!" To "Protoss imba!" Its always been mostly about TvP though :/ This thread was created after the snipe nerf though, but I don't mind. Its entertaining at least, ahhaha, watching protoss and terran having a go at each other. I wonder if we have all forgotten we are actually humans. (And no, I am not saying we are all terrans.) I strictly believe this thread is still here because it prevent the whiners to go somewhere else. Like some kind of catalyst you know. It's because they are not courageous enough. Terran are only for the courageous ones. It is true, there are some truely brave terrans in this thread, who have said they have skills fighting protoss and are able to beat them in open combat at all parts of the game. These terrans have the courage of Russian Dancing Bears. Do I look like one of them?=)
Of course, after all, you know that the only way to beat a protoss is to be better than them at all parts of the game. Also, known that you may have lost the game 10 minutes before it ended helps a lot when reviewing your play. And microing marines like Dancing Bears.
|
On April 06 2012 01:58 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 06 2012 01:50 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:44 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 01:15 Superneenja wrote:Actually this thread was started to see where all the terrans have gone, because people have seen a fairly dramatic decrease in the terran population on ladder. And I think an idea came about that the terrans were becoming frustrated at the MUs and were either quitting or switching races. I myself quit around end of season 3 after reaching top 5 diamond, and have recently picked up playing again. I think what we all really want is that everyone is on a equal footing meaning you have to do as much as I have to do to keep things even, but this is just not the case and I doubt it will ever be. It's saddening...but ya right now I want to get back in form and shut some protoss up The whole having to play with skills of a higher league to beat a certain race in the same league as you is the frustrating part. Think of it this way lets say 2 people were going to perfect T and P play, who has more things to perfect? And out of those things each has to perfect which of things is harder to learn. A lot of us understand having a fustrating match up, but the issues people have in this thread are nothing new to SC2. PvZ has similar issues. Stephano developed a style of play where he maxes on roaches in 12 minutes and SMASHES a protoss third base, which is followed by a loss. Maxes on a single unit that is slightly upgraded to roll over a protoss attempting to expand. Currently there are a lot of people talking about how to stop it. So many, it has created a 52 page thread as shown below: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894I am not going to say that a zerg that can pull off maxing in 12 minutes is not talented, because that is a feat. But stopping 140 supply of roaches(the zerg gets 60 drones) at the 12 minute mark for a protoss is ROUGH. I could say it is harder than controlling the 200 roach blob, or a least is seems that way. . But I am not telling all zergs they are scrubs or saying that protoss is so much harder than zerg. That is just not true and I am not going gripe about how we are not on equal footing. I watch this thread to see if a solution is found, because I cannot beat that build with my current skills. Protoss have provided pointers to those who posted replays. Those pointers and tips have been responded to with more griping, balance whining and grief. The funny thing is, players can actually prevent the stephano build by not going forge/nexus first. But of course, they will then state zergs have it easier if they do that. Kinda retarded how they just want a build that automatically give them an advantage It's pretty much established that FFE is the current best opening in PvZ >.> Going gateway first really isn't popular and you have to have some really ridiculous trick up your sleeve. After your FFE, you can get your econ and upgrades going and try a whole bunch of different harrassment options. If you go gateway first in hopes that you can shut down a mass roach opening, the Zerg doesn't even have to go mass roaches (they obviously have map control for the first 5 minutes of the game with their first few lings, so they have the watchtowers and know when your expansion is going down... plus they can scout your base with an overlord). What you just state just proved my point, everyone thinks its the best opening yet they whine that zerg can get 3 bases easily. if you want to prevent zerg from getting 3 bases, go gate way first and pressure. Learn from the terrans, they pressure us and prevent us from getting our 3rd up quickly. And by forcing lings you can actually decrease our economy. And again, learn from the terrans, they have long learned that pressuring a zerg to make even 8 lings is enough to damage our economy. And btw, doing 5 zealot push would actually force more then 20 lings. Which is equivalent to more then 10 drones Edit: and before you argue that protoss is sacrificing 500 minerals, at least know, that you can still make probes from your nexus, while WE are spending larvae on zerglings. And we won't have enough for more drones.
While I like your ideas in theory, it's unfortunately the case that TvZ and TvP aren't identical match-ups (especially with the openings). Opening 2rax is completely standard, because marines are cheap and quick to produce. Protoss can't open 2gate and throw ranged zealots in a bunker to do harrassment while expanding and throwing down a cybernetics core and getting gas.
The +1 is what makes zealots really really good against zerglings, plus without the early forge, we could die pretty easily to runbys or early all-ins. And I'd rather have a Zerg opponent on 3 bases and myself on 2... then him on 2 and me only on 1. Besides, even if I deny the third base from going down at proper expansion, they can drop a macro hatch if they want to go all-in. I still think FFE is the best route to go, and all the Protoss pros clearly do too.
|
On April 06 2012 01:58 Naphal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:53 Plansix wrote: The only solution for this is for the game to be made easier so they do not need to improve. the other solution would be to make protoss harder, i must say i really like that approach more. Wouldn't mind that. In fact, it might make me switch back to Protoss, which I was since the beta when suddenly I decided I didn't want to play the race considered the easiest anymore. Plus MKP's awesome, lawl, so I'm T now.
|
On April 06 2012 02:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:58 Naphal wrote:On April 06 2012 01:53 Plansix wrote: The only solution for this is for the game to be made easier so they do not need to improve. the other solution would be to make protoss harder, i must say i really like that approach more. Protoss is already statistically the worst race in the game, without Zerg far behind. Making the race harder just so diamond-level Protosses do worse is kind of... not an ideal situation. In my humble opinion.
i think pro-protoss would welcome the possibility to do more during fights.
On April 06 2012 02:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:58 Naphal wrote:On April 06 2012 01:53 Plansix wrote: The only solution for this is for the game to be made easier so they do not need to improve. the other solution would be to make protoss harder, i must say i really like that approach more. Pretty much the same argument. Make the game harder for my opponent. It would be like a protoss asking for stim to not work on marines and maruaders at the same time, because we have to tab through our units to use our abilities. Its not fair terran can use an ability on two seperate unit types with a single button press. Or medivac shouldn't auto heal and auto target. Or remove auto repair. But we are not asking for that.
it really is the exact opposite, but you seem to be quite against raising the skill ceiling for protoss, i guess that is a tell in itself.
|
On April 06 2012 02:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:58 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 06 2012 01:50 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:44 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 01:15 Superneenja wrote:Actually this thread was started to see where all the terrans have gone, because people have seen a fairly dramatic decrease in the terran population on ladder. And I think an idea came about that the terrans were becoming frustrated at the MUs and were either quitting or switching races. I myself quit around end of season 3 after reaching top 5 diamond, and have recently picked up playing again. I think what we all really want is that everyone is on a equal footing meaning you have to do as much as I have to do to keep things even, but this is just not the case and I doubt it will ever be. It's saddening...but ya right now I want to get back in form and shut some protoss up The whole having to play with skills of a higher league to beat a certain race in the same league as you is the frustrating part. Think of it this way lets say 2 people were going to perfect T and P play, who has more things to perfect? And out of those things each has to perfect which of things is harder to learn. A lot of us understand having a fustrating match up, but the issues people have in this thread are nothing new to SC2. PvZ has similar issues. Stephano developed a style of play where he maxes on roaches in 12 minutes and SMASHES a protoss third base, which is followed by a loss. Maxes on a single unit that is slightly upgraded to roll over a protoss attempting to expand. Currently there are a lot of people talking about how to stop it. So many, it has created a 52 page thread as shown below: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894I am not going to say that a zerg that can pull off maxing in 12 minutes is not talented, because that is a feat. But stopping 140 supply of roaches(the zerg gets 60 drones) at the 12 minute mark for a protoss is ROUGH. I could say it is harder than controlling the 200 roach blob, or a least is seems that way. . But I am not telling all zergs they are scrubs or saying that protoss is so much harder than zerg. That is just not true and I am not going gripe about how we are not on equal footing. I watch this thread to see if a solution is found, because I cannot beat that build with my current skills. Protoss have provided pointers to those who posted replays. Those pointers and tips have been responded to with more griping, balance whining and grief. The funny thing is, players can actually prevent the stephano build by not going forge/nexus first. But of course, they will then state zergs have it easier if they do that. Kinda retarded how they just want a build that automatically give them an advantage It's pretty much established that FFE is the current best opening in PvZ >.> Going gateway first really isn't popular and you have to have some really ridiculous trick up your sleeve. After your FFE, you can get your econ and upgrades going and try a whole bunch of different harrassment options. If you go gateway first in hopes that you can shut down a mass roach opening, the Zerg doesn't even have to go mass roaches (they obviously have map control for the first 5 minutes of the game with their first few lings, so they have the watchtowers and know when your expansion is going down... plus they can scout your base with an overlord). What you just state just proved my point, everyone thinks its the best opening yet they whine that zerg can get 3 bases easily. if you want to prevent zerg from getting 3 bases, go gate way first and pressure. Learn from the terrans, they pressure us and prevent us from getting our 3rd up quickly. And by forcing lings you can actually decrease our economy. And again, learn from the terrans, they have long learned that pressuring a zerg to make even 8 lings is enough to damage our economy. And btw, doing 5 zealot push would actually force more then 20 lings. Which is equivalent to more then 10 drones Edit: and before you argue that protoss is sacrificing 500 minerals, at least know, that you can still make probes from your nexus, while WE are spending larvae on zerglings. And we won't have enough for more drones. While I like your ideas in theory, it's unfortunately the case that TvZ and TvP aren't identical match-ups (especially with the openings). Opening 2rax is completely standard, because marines are cheap and quick to produce. Protoss can't open 2gate and throw ranged zealots in a bunker to do harrassment while expanding and throwing down a cybernetics core and getting gas. The +1 is what makes zealots really really good against zerglings, plus without the early forge, we could die pretty easily to runbys or early all-ins. And I'd rather have a Zerg opponent on 3 bases and myself on 2... then him on 2 and me only on 1. Besides, even if I deny the third base from going down at proper expansion, they can drop a macro hatch if they want to go all-in. I still think FFE is the best route to go, and all the Protoss pros clearly do too. Its not theory, dude I am being 100% non sarcastic with you, protoss players don't know how hurtful it is for a zerg to give up drones for lings. Look at genius play style, he opens gate/expand/ stargate. Its so safe and allows him to have tech choices AND forces the zerg to spend on spores. I will repeat, gateway openings are gonna be popular again, look at the recent gsl, some are already opening gate way first.
Edit: I don't even know why am I explaining things to you. Damn
|
On April 06 2012 02:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 02:04 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:54 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 01:52 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:50 Noocta wrote:On April 06 2012 01:47 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:44 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:43 SeventhPride wrote: Weird how this thread has went from "Zerg imba!" To "Protoss imba!" Its always been mostly about TvP though :/ This thread was created after the snipe nerf though, but I don't mind. Its entertaining at least, ahhaha, watching protoss and terran having a go at each other. I wonder if we have all forgotten we are actually humans. (And no, I am not saying we are all terrans.) I strictly believe this thread is still here because it prevent the whiners to go somewhere else. Like some kind of catalyst you know. It's because they are not courageous enough. Terran are only for the courageous ones. It is true, there are some truely brave terrans in this thread, who have said they have skills fighting protoss and are able to beat them in open combat at all parts of the game. These terrans have the courage of Russian Dancing Bears. Do I look like one of them?=) Of course, after all, you know that the only way to beat a protoss is to be better than them at all parts of the game. Also, known that you may have lost the game 10 minutes before it ended helps a lot when reviewing your play. And microing marines like Dancing Bears. Sorry I am an idiot I know no other way to win other than playing better than my opponent hahaha
|
On April 06 2012 02:14 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 02:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 06 2012 01:58 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 06 2012 01:50 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:44 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 01:15 Superneenja wrote:Actually this thread was started to see where all the terrans have gone, because people have seen a fairly dramatic decrease in the terran population on ladder. And I think an idea came about that the terrans were becoming frustrated at the MUs and were either quitting or switching races. I myself quit around end of season 3 after reaching top 5 diamond, and have recently picked up playing again. I think what we all really want is that everyone is on a equal footing meaning you have to do as much as I have to do to keep things even, but this is just not the case and I doubt it will ever be. It's saddening...but ya right now I want to get back in form and shut some protoss up The whole having to play with skills of a higher league to beat a certain race in the same league as you is the frustrating part. Think of it this way lets say 2 people were going to perfect T and P play, who has more things to perfect? And out of those things each has to perfect which of things is harder to learn. A lot of us understand having a fustrating match up, but the issues people have in this thread are nothing new to SC2. PvZ has similar issues. Stephano developed a style of play where he maxes on roaches in 12 minutes and SMASHES a protoss third base, which is followed by a loss. Maxes on a single unit that is slightly upgraded to roll over a protoss attempting to expand. Currently there are a lot of people talking about how to stop it. So many, it has created a 52 page thread as shown below: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894I am not going to say that a zerg that can pull off maxing in 12 minutes is not talented, because that is a feat. But stopping 140 supply of roaches(the zerg gets 60 drones) at the 12 minute mark for a protoss is ROUGH. I could say it is harder than controlling the 200 roach blob, or a least is seems that way. . But I am not telling all zergs they are scrubs or saying that protoss is so much harder than zerg. That is just not true and I am not going gripe about how we are not on equal footing. I watch this thread to see if a solution is found, because I cannot beat that build with my current skills. Protoss have provided pointers to those who posted replays. Those pointers and tips have been responded to with more griping, balance whining and grief. The funny thing is, players can actually prevent the stephano build by not going forge/nexus first. But of course, they will then state zergs have it easier if they do that. Kinda retarded how they just want a build that automatically give them an advantage It's pretty much established that FFE is the current best opening in PvZ >.> Going gateway first really isn't popular and you have to have some really ridiculous trick up your sleeve. After your FFE, you can get your econ and upgrades going and try a whole bunch of different harrassment options. If you go gateway first in hopes that you can shut down a mass roach opening, the Zerg doesn't even have to go mass roaches (they obviously have map control for the first 5 minutes of the game with their first few lings, so they have the watchtowers and know when your expansion is going down... plus they can scout your base with an overlord). What you just state just proved my point, everyone thinks its the best opening yet they whine that zerg can get 3 bases easily. if you want to prevent zerg from getting 3 bases, go gate way first and pressure. Learn from the terrans, they pressure us and prevent us from getting our 3rd up quickly. And by forcing lings you can actually decrease our economy. And again, learn from the terrans, they have long learned that pressuring a zerg to make even 8 lings is enough to damage our economy. And btw, doing 5 zealot push would actually force more then 20 lings. Which is equivalent to more then 10 drones Edit: and before you argue that protoss is sacrificing 500 minerals, at least know, that you can still make probes from your nexus, while WE are spending larvae on zerglings. And we won't have enough for more drones. While I like your ideas in theory, it's unfortunately the case that TvZ and TvP aren't identical match-ups (especially with the openings). Opening 2rax is completely standard, because marines are cheap and quick to produce. Protoss can't open 2gate and throw ranged zealots in a bunker to do harrassment while expanding and throwing down a cybernetics core and getting gas. The +1 is what makes zealots really really good against zerglings, plus without the early forge, we could die pretty easily to runbys or early all-ins. And I'd rather have a Zerg opponent on 3 bases and myself on 2... then him on 2 and me only on 1. Besides, even if I deny the third base from going down at proper expansion, they can drop a macro hatch if they want to go all-in. I still think FFE is the best route to go, and all the Protoss pros clearly do too. Its not theory, dude I am being 100% non sarcastic with you, protoss players don't know how hurtful it is for a zerg to give up drones for lings. Look at genius play style, he opens gate/expand/ stargate. Its so safe and allows him to have tech choices AND forces the zerg to spend on spores. I will repeat, gateway openings are gonna be popular again, look at the recent gsl, some are already opening gate way first.
All right, well I'll have to try opening that way a few times then to get a feel for it I don't suppose there's any harm in trying out a new strategy.
(By the way, I didn't think you were being sarcastic; I just felt like your idea was unrealistic.)
If you happen to have a solid replay or two of a high-level PvZ where the Protoss opens gateway first into expansion to some decent success (for the reasons you explained), I would greatly appreciate it if you posted it ^^
|
On April 06 2012 02:14 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 02:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 06 2012 01:58 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 06 2012 01:50 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:44 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 01:15 Superneenja wrote:Actually this thread was started to see where all the terrans have gone, because people have seen a fairly dramatic decrease in the terran population on ladder. And I think an idea came about that the terrans were becoming frustrated at the MUs and were either quitting or switching races. I myself quit around end of season 3 after reaching top 5 diamond, and have recently picked up playing again. I think what we all really want is that everyone is on a equal footing meaning you have to do as much as I have to do to keep things even, but this is just not the case and I doubt it will ever be. It's saddening...but ya right now I want to get back in form and shut some protoss up The whole having to play with skills of a higher league to beat a certain race in the same league as you is the frustrating part. Think of it this way lets say 2 people were going to perfect T and P play, who has more things to perfect? And out of those things each has to perfect which of things is harder to learn. A lot of us understand having a fustrating match up, but the issues people have in this thread are nothing new to SC2. PvZ has similar issues. Stephano developed a style of play where he maxes on roaches in 12 minutes and SMASHES a protoss third base, which is followed by a loss. Maxes on a single unit that is slightly upgraded to roll over a protoss attempting to expand. Currently there are a lot of people talking about how to stop it. So many, it has created a 52 page thread as shown below: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894I am not going to say that a zerg that can pull off maxing in 12 minutes is not talented, because that is a feat. But stopping 140 supply of roaches(the zerg gets 60 drones) at the 12 minute mark for a protoss is ROUGH. I could say it is harder than controlling the 200 roach blob, or a least is seems that way. . But I am not telling all zergs they are scrubs or saying that protoss is so much harder than zerg. That is just not true and I am not going gripe about how we are not on equal footing. I watch this thread to see if a solution is found, because I cannot beat that build with my current skills. Protoss have provided pointers to those who posted replays. Those pointers and tips have been responded to with more griping, balance whining and grief. The funny thing is, players can actually prevent the stephano build by not going forge/nexus first. But of course, they will then state zergs have it easier if they do that. Kinda retarded how they just want a build that automatically give them an advantage It's pretty much established that FFE is the current best opening in PvZ >.> Going gateway first really isn't popular and you have to have some really ridiculous trick up your sleeve. After your FFE, you can get your econ and upgrades going and try a whole bunch of different harrassment options. If you go gateway first in hopes that you can shut down a mass roach opening, the Zerg doesn't even have to go mass roaches (they obviously have map control for the first 5 minutes of the game with their first few lings, so they have the watchtowers and know when your expansion is going down... plus they can scout your base with an overlord). What you just state just proved my point, everyone thinks its the best opening yet they whine that zerg can get 3 bases easily. if you want to prevent zerg from getting 3 bases, go gate way first and pressure. Learn from the terrans, they pressure us and prevent us from getting our 3rd up quickly. And by forcing lings you can actually decrease our economy. And again, learn from the terrans, they have long learned that pressuring a zerg to make even 8 lings is enough to damage our economy. And btw, doing 5 zealot push would actually force more then 20 lings. Which is equivalent to more then 10 drones Edit: and before you argue that protoss is sacrificing 500 minerals, at least know, that you can still make probes from your nexus, while WE are spending larvae on zerglings. And we won't have enough for more drones. While I like your ideas in theory, it's unfortunately the case that TvZ and TvP aren't identical match-ups (especially with the openings). Opening 2rax is completely standard, because marines are cheap and quick to produce. Protoss can't open 2gate and throw ranged zealots in a bunker to do harrassment while expanding and throwing down a cybernetics core and getting gas. The +1 is what makes zealots really really good against zerglings, plus without the early forge, we could die pretty easily to runbys or early all-ins. And I'd rather have a Zerg opponent on 3 bases and myself on 2... then him on 2 and me only on 1. Besides, even if I deny the third base from going down at proper expansion, they can drop a macro hatch if they want to go all-in. I still think FFE is the best route to go, and all the Protoss pros clearly do too. Its not theory, dude I am being 100% non sarcastic with you, protoss players don't know how hurtful it is for a zerg to give up drones for lings. Look at genius play style, he opens gate/expand/ stargate. Its so safe and allows him to have tech choices AND forces the zerg to spend on spores. I will repeat, gateway openings are gonna be popular again, look at the recent gsl, some are already opening gate way first.
It is totally map dependant. The GSL is not a great place for standard builds either, since they prepare for specific opponents for weeks at a time. A player may not go FFE because he knows that his opponent scouts late on a specific map or does not get a queen until a specific time. Also, FFE allows for more scouting options than gateway expands, IMO.
Not saything that gateway builds are bad, but I would rather had the option of an early 4 gases than only 2. I think it is more stable for the ladder if the map allows it.
But back to the thread.
|
On April 06 2012 02:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 02:14 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 02:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 06 2012 01:58 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 06 2012 01:50 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:44 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 01:15 Superneenja wrote:Actually this thread was started to see where all the terrans have gone, because people have seen a fairly dramatic decrease in the terran population on ladder. And I think an idea came about that the terrans were becoming frustrated at the MUs and were either quitting or switching races. I myself quit around end of season 3 after reaching top 5 diamond, and have recently picked up playing again. I think what we all really want is that everyone is on a equal footing meaning you have to do as much as I have to do to keep things even, but this is just not the case and I doubt it will ever be. It's saddening...but ya right now I want to get back in form and shut some protoss up The whole having to play with skills of a higher league to beat a certain race in the same league as you is the frustrating part. Think of it this way lets say 2 people were going to perfect T and P play, who has more things to perfect? And out of those things each has to perfect which of things is harder to learn. A lot of us understand having a fustrating match up, but the issues people have in this thread are nothing new to SC2. PvZ has similar issues. Stephano developed a style of play where he maxes on roaches in 12 minutes and SMASHES a protoss third base, which is followed by a loss. Maxes on a single unit that is slightly upgraded to roll over a protoss attempting to expand. Currently there are a lot of people talking about how to stop it. So many, it has created a 52 page thread as shown below: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894I am not going to say that a zerg that can pull off maxing in 12 minutes is not talented, because that is a feat. But stopping 140 supply of roaches(the zerg gets 60 drones) at the 12 minute mark for a protoss is ROUGH. I could say it is harder than controlling the 200 roach blob, or a least is seems that way. . But I am not telling all zergs they are scrubs or saying that protoss is so much harder than zerg. That is just not true and I am not going gripe about how we are not on equal footing. I watch this thread to see if a solution is found, because I cannot beat that build with my current skills. Protoss have provided pointers to those who posted replays. Those pointers and tips have been responded to with more griping, balance whining and grief. The funny thing is, players can actually prevent the stephano build by not going forge/nexus first. But of course, they will then state zergs have it easier if they do that. Kinda retarded how they just want a build that automatically give them an advantage It's pretty much established that FFE is the current best opening in PvZ >.> Going gateway first really isn't popular and you have to have some really ridiculous trick up your sleeve. After your FFE, you can get your econ and upgrades going and try a whole bunch of different harrassment options. If you go gateway first in hopes that you can shut down a mass roach opening, the Zerg doesn't even have to go mass roaches (they obviously have map control for the first 5 minutes of the game with their first few lings, so they have the watchtowers and know when your expansion is going down... plus they can scout your base with an overlord). What you just state just proved my point, everyone thinks its the best opening yet they whine that zerg can get 3 bases easily. if you want to prevent zerg from getting 3 bases, go gate way first and pressure. Learn from the terrans, they pressure us and prevent us from getting our 3rd up quickly. And by forcing lings you can actually decrease our economy. And again, learn from the terrans, they have long learned that pressuring a zerg to make even 8 lings is enough to damage our economy. And btw, doing 5 zealot push would actually force more then 20 lings. Which is equivalent to more then 10 drones Edit: and before you argue that protoss is sacrificing 500 minerals, at least know, that you can still make probes from your nexus, while WE are spending larvae on zerglings. And we won't have enough for more drones. While I like your ideas in theory, it's unfortunately the case that TvZ and TvP aren't identical match-ups (especially with the openings). Opening 2rax is completely standard, because marines are cheap and quick to produce. Protoss can't open 2gate and throw ranged zealots in a bunker to do harrassment while expanding and throwing down a cybernetics core and getting gas. The +1 is what makes zealots really really good against zerglings, plus without the early forge, we could die pretty easily to runbys or early all-ins. And I'd rather have a Zerg opponent on 3 bases and myself on 2... then him on 2 and me only on 1. Besides, even if I deny the third base from going down at proper expansion, they can drop a macro hatch if they want to go all-in. I still think FFE is the best route to go, and all the Protoss pros clearly do too. Its not theory, dude I am being 100% non sarcastic with you, protoss players don't know how hurtful it is for a zerg to give up drones for lings. Look at genius play style, he opens gate/expand/ stargate. Its so safe and allows him to have tech choices AND forces the zerg to spend on spores. I will repeat, gateway openings are gonna be popular again, look at the recent gsl, some are already opening gate way first. All right, well I'll have to try opening that way a few times then to get a feel for it I don't suppose there's any harm in trying out a new strategy. (By the way, I didn't think you were being sarcastic; I just felt like your idea was unrealistic.) If you happen to have a solid replay or two of a high-level PvZ where the Protoss opens gateway first into expansion to some decent success (for the reasons you explained), I would greatly appreciate it if you posted it ^^ Watch genius games on gsl. I think you can watch all his first games for free. He basically opens gate way first. Though he does go forge sometimes. He mixes them up but he has success with both of them.
|
dezi
Germany1536 Posts
On April 05 2012 21:18 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 20:59 dezi wrote:On April 05 2012 20:37 Big J wrote:On April 05 2012 20:25 dezi wrote:On April 05 2012 13:40 sirpsychosexy wrote: The reason Terrans have disappeared is it is harder to play at the low to mid levels than any other race. It is that simple. As a terran your success in the big battles, a lot of times depends on your micro. Average players aren't super good at microing, so as a result the race that has to micro the most to win a batlle, will probably win less often.
It really is that unbelivably simple, lets look at the things terran has to do versus toss to do okay in a mid-late game battle: First off terran has to make sure they have the right composition to engage the army. You have to get the proper amount of vikings and ghosts that is appropriate to their collossus, and high temp count. You don't do this, you already lost the fight. Once you engage (or before if you can), emping or sniping the High temps is a huge priority. In the event that you cannot get all the high temps, you then have to dodge storms, not only your bio, but the vikings too. In addition you should be focus firing the vikings to kill collosus 1 at a time, having them all hit different one's won't be very beneficial. Meanwhile make sure you are kiting the charglots and not letting them get a good surround, this alone is daunting for someone in the lower-mid levels. And still while kiting the zealots, try to maintain a spread from the collosses splash if they don't die immediately from the vikings.
For protoss they do have to do a few things. You should probably try to find an advantageous area to engage in (same goes for terran), and then while you are attacking throw storms on top of the army, and try not to clump up your high temps too much for the emps. And that's about it.
If the terran gets too clumped up or the zealots get in a good position, you will probably lose the fight. If you take 1 bad storm, you will probably lose the fight. It really is this simple. Asking a platinum or dimaond level player to do all these things and not take a couple bad storms is too much. Storm just absolutely decimates your army, just fucking crushes it. No player on this level will consistently be able to emp every high templar before each fight.
The ease of the things toss has to do and the difficulty of the things terran has to do is staggering. Placing a storm on the army is incredibly easy. Dodging storms, kiting zealots, and emping the temps is not easy. Even pros take huge storm damage all the time. A fricken platnium-diamond player is just going to eat them alive half the time. The consequences of a toss getting all the high temps emp'd is nowhere near the consequence of a terran taking bad storms, if you get emp'd you still have an okay chance.
Now if the battle is over and you arent completely dead, the toss can probably warp in 30-40 supply almost instantly so get ready for that. To best deal with this, you have to make sure you start producing your units during the battle as you are losing units, and hope they come out in time. Another drawback for lower level terran players is having to constantly be making production using many of your scv's and also having to add techlabs/reactors and what not. This isn't so bad for gold players and beyond, it really isn't very difficult, but for the lowest of players, it is alot more to ask then simply throwing down 10 gateways with a probe.
TvZ isn't quite as bad as TvP, I personally think it is almost balanced, but I will write a few things that make it difficult for your average terran. As a terran you do have to be able to split against banelings and what not, which can be a big turnoff for players looking into terran. And as a similair situation with storm you have to emp or snipe the infestors and spread from the fungals. And once the broodlords are out, your only real option is mass vikings, you can try marines, but again it is alot to ask for a platinum or diamond player to get under the broodlords without getting owned by fungals. And if you do get the vikings out and he doesnt crush you because you weren't prepared, the zerg can tech switch to ultras and make half your army useless. I think the matchup was well balanced before the ghost nerf.
And in both these matchups you again have the scenario where zerg and toss can resupply super fast and tech switch very fast as well, while terran cannot. This alone drives away people who want to play terran.
These are my feelings on why people are driven away from terran. The top tier players have great success with Terran because they can do all these things, they can split, emp, kite, spread, keep up with production, etc, the skill cap is higher, the best most skilled player, would probably do best with terran, but for players with low apm who are just average, races like protoss would be so much more appealing, and that is what we are seeing. This pretty much sums it up for me. Was stucked in high Dia due to my TvP for a long time until i switched to Sky Terran (this is way easier to pull off and often just works due to the surprise advantage). Now in mid Master i got some trouble in TvZ with maps getting bigger and bigger leading to more Lategame fights (which are quite hard when the Z is good - Ghost nerf also made it harder). so what's your problem exactly? you found a good strategy that works for you on your level - or do you assume that even with skyterran you are held back way too much? and in TvZ you have trouble against good players... well that's why they are good isn't it? That's what i like about TL. You write down sth. and people make sth. completly different out of it. What i just was saying is that i know i don't have the APM to pull of all the stuff described at once to do well in TvP lategame. I personally just feel like it's more micro intensive to play bio in a lategame vs a P than it's for a P to play vs the T. I cannot pull this off but luckly there're some other strats i can you that work well at least for me, that aren't that micro intensive and that allow me to actually keep up with the P i consider to be on my level of play. In top Dia Z often just struggeled vs 2 Rax, light Hellion pressure into 3/4 Tank contain. With the nerfs to Rax buildtime and the maps getting bigger i need to adapt a bit more because it's quite hard to really punish a Z for going Hatch first now (again: at my level of play (read: Multitasking)). My real problem in TvZ is the lategame - for me it's a bit to hard (on those more open maps) to survive vs the endgame composition of a Z with BLs, Corrupters, Infestors and especially the switch after (i think it's harder for Ts at my level to play on those bigger, more open maps vs Z - read: engagements). The post you quoted gave a list why the writer thinks Terran is harder on certain levels and does so by explicitly describing problems Terran faces vs Protoss. You say "This pretty much sums it up for me." and in the next sentence you write that you don't even play that style he describes. So I'm a bit confused how you can say this sums it up for you, if you don't have those problems to begin with. No, i used the standard bio style for TvP but just wasn't able to handle all the stuff needed to keep up with the P during lategame engagements. That's why i switched to Sky Terran in this matchup because i (personally) find it to hard to fight a P headon with bio as T in the later stages of the game.
|
On April 06 2012 02:01 pOnarreT wrote: Don't stop. Bump this thread. SC2 would be better off without whiners (whiners = Terran = baby)! Bump this thread!
I'm sure decent Terrans don't post at this thread.
FU Terran whiner players! FU! and not the race! the whiner players! FU lol! whooo that was quite refreshing
C'mon other Z and P, you know you wanna do it! Let's all give a big FU to terran whiners. whooo!!!
Maybe they should be the swarm since the Terran players are like a plague (plague of whiners that is)
Because Z and P NEVER EVER whined EVER. It's those stupid terrans that do all the whining. Every P and Z just waited patiently on blizz to fix the game and didn't say anything anywhere.
Fuck you.
|
On April 06 2012 02:47 Greenei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 02:01 pOnarreT wrote: Don't stop. Bump this thread. SC2 would be better off without whiners (whiners = Terran = baby)! Bump this thread!
I'm sure decent Terrans don't post at this thread.
FU Terran whiner players! FU! and not the race! the whiner players! FU lol! whooo that was quite refreshing
C'mon other Z and P, you know you wanna do it! Let's all give a big FU to terran whiners. whooo!!!
Maybe they should be the swarm since the Terran players are like a plague (plague of whiners that is) Because Z and P NEVER EVER whined EVER. It's those stupid terrans that do all the whining. Every P and Z just waited patiently on blizz to fix the game and didn't say anything anywhere. Fuck you. Whoa man, real manner right there. That's not courageous at all. No, that's bad courageous Terrans must be courageous! and not BM! Where is your pride?
|
|
|
|