EPTWhere did all of the terrans go? - Page 70
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
On March 17 2012 23:35 sushichef wrote: BF got nerfed after one MLG where Slayers terrans rolled through zergs with hellion marine elevator builds. The amount of tears from zerg players was ridiculous and no one wanted to wait a bit and "figure it out" (simcity is the answer - BF rushes had been very common in TvT prior to that and that's how you stopped them). There's a trend - any time terrans come up with a strong build the outcry from toss and zerg players is enough for something to be nerfed in the next patch (blueflame, thor energy bar, immortal range upgrade etc), whereas now that terrans are struggling with late game in general and not a specific build, there's a choir of zergs and protosses telling us to "figure it out". Yes, im sure simcity would save zergs from blue helion drops. Same as i guess mass reaper builds were fine and it wasnt totally stupid shit (you had to make roaches to survive em, but when you made roaches there was a marouder follow up and since you had to invest in roaches there was no way for mutas to have sufficient number). I guess proxy racks before supply depot change were fine too?! I understand that late game TvZ and TvP can be frustrating, but crying about nerfs that happened when certain, lets face it, abusive builds became too popular wont get you any sympathy. Is it harder to win as terran now? I dont think anyone have any doubts about that, but you guys need to understand that for hella lot of time Terran was just blantly strongest race. (and i dont mean that it deserve to be weak couse it was strong before, it just means that you have to play better than how you played earlier or your rank/win ratio will drop). | ||
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SKYFISH_
Bulgaria990 Posts
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Nibbler89
884 Posts
On March 17 2012 23:57 Narw wrote: Yes, im sure simcity would save zergs from blue helion drops. Same as i guess mass reaper builds were fine and it wasnt totally stupid shit (you had to make roaches to survive em, but when you made roaches there was a marouder follow up and since you had to invest in roaches there was no way for mutas to have sufficient number). I guess proxy racks before supply depot change were fine too?! I understand that late game TvZ and TvP can be frustrating, but crying about nerfs that happened when certain, lets face it, abusive builds became too popular wont get you any sympathy. Is it harder to win as terran now? I dont think anyone have any doubts about that, but you guys need to understand that for hella lot of time Terran was just blantly strongest race. (and i dont mean that it deserve to be weak couse it was strong before, it just means that you have to play better than how you played earlier or your rank/win ratio will drop). Imagine if every player had done the stop f1 click minimap worker split trick during that MLG / simcity appropriately(and yes it's enough). Still think it would be considered abusive / nerfed? I guess with your logic if terran never split up their units fungal / storm / banelings should be nerfed and z and p have to play better to win instead of terran having to play better. You realize unless you kill enough hellions that it's 2 not 3 the damage will be pretty much exactly the same right, the amount of damage hellions do depends so much more on the player than even something as massive as BF nerf. So many players during that MLG just lined up their drones, of course you lose if you do that it happens to terrans too, but these days you rarely see non protoss players line up their drones like that anymore because they have gotten used to defending it. I personally didn't mind the change because it did make the game slightly less volatile at the time(by now I think even without nerf people would have figured it out and would have much better hellion defense), just your argument made no sense. Btw nerf banelings in ZvZ they are abusive takes only 2 to kill drones and if you clump up drones its even worse than BF hellion!(I believe it's zenio btw who does stop f1 splits even in zvz to avoid bane hits and it works amazingly). The funny thing is even though i'm being sarcastic it actually is true that it probably limits/makes zvz more volatile than bf did for tvz since pretty often you see all ins / short games in zvz. Ofc if your arguement is if terran is struggling with something they should just get better but when z or p struggles blizz should nerf terran or buff their race I guess that speaks to how complacent some people have gotten with blizzard's balancing act(they think that's how the game should be balanced, wow arena style) and exactly why people don't like playing terran. | ||
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sushichef
Scotland48 Posts
On March 17 2012 23:57 Narw wrote: Yes, im sure simcity would save zergs from blue helion drops. Same as i guess mass reaper builds were fine and it wasnt totally stupid shit (you had to make roaches to survive em, but when you made roaches there was a marouder follow up and since you had to invest in roaches there was no way for mutas to have sufficient number). I guess proxy racks before supply depot change were fine too?! I understand that late game TvZ and TvP can be frustrating, but crying about nerfs that happened when certain, lets face it, abusive builds became too popular wont get you any sympathy. Is it harder to win as terran now? I dont think anyone have any doubts about that, but you guys need to understand that for hella lot of time Terran was just blantly strongest race. (and i dont mean that it deserve to be weak couse it was strong before, it just means that you have to play better than how you played earlier or your rank/win ratio will drop). Yes, simcity is not 100%-proof but it makes BF drops much less effective. 5-rax reaper was ridiculous -- but look what happened with the reaper for an example of Blizzard being too heavy-handed: no rax before depot, build time increase on rax and reapers, HP decrease, factory requirement for nitro pack. Coupled with bigger maps reapers are virtually useless now outside of a couple of very specific situations. Thors got their energy bar re-added when Thorzain destroyed MC in TSL I think -- one series of games + inordinate amount of QQ from toss players made thors useless in TvP. 1-1-1 was way too strong for a long time but just as people started figuring it out Blizzard buffs protoss across the board. Again, people that say "take time to figure it out, we dealt with <SOME BUILD>" -- terrans are not struggling with a particular build, but with late game in general in both TvP and TvZ. It took a patch for the majority of toss players to start using warp prisms (even though WhiteRa and Sase had used them successfully prior to that), another patch to start doing double forge (even though Nony/Tyler had figured out how strong it was a long time before the patch). Remember the outcry when HT amulet upgrade was removed? -- how one couldn't see how imba it was is baffling. If anyone should try "figuring out" things before asking for Blizzard to intervene it's the majority of protoss players. | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
On March 18 2012 00:08 SKYFISH_ wrote: really, still using the "you dont deserve your ladder rank because you got it by abusing IMBA builds" argument 6+ months after blizzard has patched them? Yes, im gonna use that argument as long as it is valid. Terran WAS by far the strongest race with biggest ammount of cheesy all ins/maps benefiting em. This changed as time passed, ofc you have to play better now then before. If you cant accept you dont deserve spot you are at currently then bad luck for you. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Into Code S, apparently. | ||
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Bjoernzor
Sweden159 Posts
On March 17 2012 23:50 Type|NarutO wrote: Why are so few Terrans using mass ghosts in the very late game I'm curious. Please explain why you personally don't use them as much? After the snipe nerf it makes no sense to make ghosts for anything but EMP | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On March 18 2012 00:52 Bjoernzor wrote: After the snipe nerf it makes no sense to make ghosts for anything but EMP What is your reasoning behind it? Because I'm saying it is blatantly wrong what you state. I can win every 200/200 fight against Protoss with a massive amount of my army still standing and pushing forward negating warpins from 15-20 gateways. Ghosts have more DPS than marines (1 Ghost vs 1 Marine obviously) and a 3-3 ghost deals nearly as much damage per shot as he would via snipe. EMP is instant damage and nullifies archons and templars and vikings with +3 attack deal with colossi insanely fast. Take all of this with the fact that you can cloak them + snipe the observer with vikings or the ghost itself, you end up with an invisible force that Protoss can only deal with due to AoE. If you seperate ghosts from your bio army so you don't suffer colossus AoE you can nullify all the area of effect damage from Protoss. Work on your micro and the engagements and you can win every fight. I had games vs Protoss with 15000/8000 and I won, because they could not win a single engagement, hell they couldn't even come close to TRADE with me. Ghosts costs a lot of money, but ressources were never the problem of the most Terrans here, more the fact that they lose a big fight and die with 7000/4000 or something along those lines banked because they cannot produce as fast. So... the way to get into 20-30 ghosts with 3-3 is not easy, but its certainly possible. The control is not easy, but certainly possible. Give it a try before writing it off. | ||
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SKYFISH_
Bulgaria990 Posts
On March 18 2012 00:40 Narw wrote: Yes, im gonna use that argument as long as it is valid. Terran WAS by far the strongest race with biggest ammount of cheesy all ins/maps benefiting em. This changed as time passed, ofc you have to play better now then before. If you cant accept you dont deserve spot you are at currently then bad luck for you. You do realize, I hope, that ladder seasons are two months long now and terrans are no longer in granddadymaster league because they 5rax reper'd one year ago? | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On March 18 2012 01:34 SKYFISH_ wrote: You do realize, I hope, that ladder seasons are two months long now and terrans are no longer in granddadymaster league because they 5rax reper'd one year ago? Hilarious :D | ||
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willoc
Canada1530 Posts
On March 18 2012 01:22 Type|NarutO wrote: Ghosts have more DPS than marines (1 Ghost vs 1 Marine obviously) and a 3-3 ghost deals nearly as much damage per shot as he would via snipe. EMP is instant damage and nullifies archons and templars and vikings with +3 attack deal with colossi insanely fast. I play Terran and find this thread amusing. However, I then stumbled on your delicious argument. I am starting to think I will build ghosts instead of marines because I never noticed they did more dps! Hold up... I think I am deducing more awesome strategies from that.. why build Zerglings when Ultralisks do more dps? *facepalm* I've been doing it all wrong! | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On March 18 2012 02:07 willoc wrote: I play Terran and find this thread amusing. However, I then stumbled on your delicious argument. I am starting to think I will build ghosts instead of marines because I never noticed they did more dps! Hold up... I think I am deducing more awesome strategies from that.. why build Zerglings when Ultralisks do more dps? *facepalm* I've been doing it all wrong! Please explain your point, as I did explain mine. Ressources were never the problem for Terrans in lategame. What level do you play on, because I don't want to sound arrogant but I'm pretty sure I can savely assume I play higher level than you do. Happy goes for mass Ghost as well and beat MaNa yesterday, one of the very best EU PvT players. But you can act all cocky and without any respect as much as you want. I actually try to help and instead of blatantly bashing the match up or crying I'm trying to improve on whatever I can. | ||
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XiGua
Sweden3085 Posts
On March 18 2012 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote: Please explain your point, as I did explain mine. Ressources were never the problem for Terrans in lategame. What level do you play on, because I don't want to sound arrogant but I'm pretty sure I can savely assume I play higher level than you do. Happy goes for mass Ghost as well and beat MaNa yesterday, one of the very best EU PvT players. But you can act all cocky and without any respect as much as you want. I actually try to help and instead of blatantly bashing the match up or crying I'm trying to improve on whatever I can. What is "mass" ghost? | ||
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Nibbler89
884 Posts
On March 18 2012 01:22 Type|NarutO wrote: What is your reasoning behind it? Because I'm saying it is blatantly wrong what you state. I can win every 200/200 fight against Protoss with a massive amount of my army still standing and pushing forward negating warpins from 15-20 gateways. Ghosts have more DPS than marines (1 Ghost vs 1 Marine obviously) and a 3-3 ghost deals nearly as much damage per shot as he would via snipe. EMP is instant damage and nullifies archons and templars and vikings with +3 attack deal with colossi insanely fast. Take all of this with the fact that you can cloak them + snipe the observer with vikings or the ghost itself, you end up with an invisible force that Protoss can only deal with due to AoE. If you seperate ghosts from your bio army so you don't suffer colossus AoE you can nullify all the area of effect damage from Protoss. Work on your micro and the engagements and you can win every fight. I had games vs Protoss with 15000/8000 and I won, because they could not win a single engagement, hell they couldn't even come close to TRADE with me. Ghosts costs a lot of money, but ressources were never the problem of the most Terrans here, more the fact that they lose a big fight and die with 7000/4000 or something along those lines banked because they cannot produce as fast. So... the way to get into 20-30 ghosts with 3-3 is not easy, but its certainly possible. The control is not easy, but certainly possible. Give it a try before writing it off. Main problem with mass ghost style imo is that although most protoss don't use it, they still have that unit called a warp prism. Ghosts are slow, they can't stim and still need support, on a lot of maps terran can't force an engagement if protoss just decides to turtle their fourth or third, with warp prism harass they can stress terran enough that eventually either: a) their main army engagement won't be favorable, b) their units are split too much, giving protoss map control letting them expand / get econ advantage. Keep in mind that terran has to micro on both fronts whereas zealots you can just warp in and forget, terran doesn't have things like photon cannons to protect their main so they have to send an appropriate number of units back and stutter kite, if there are multiple warp ins / harass it gets even harder and if protoss a moves your main army when you are trying to deal with the harass and you aren't ready be prepared to get wiped. I know it's a lot to expect protoss to do 1/4 the drops terran do in tvz late game with a unit that's faster, and sturdier(terran has no feedback or blink stalker so speed warp prism should never die) than a medivac as well as costing only minerals, I mean after all, pvt is much more apm intense on the protoss than TvZ is for terran(trollface) but eventually that day will come. I do however agree that in current metagame though it seems like you either play like polt who goes for relatively constant aggression with a more heavy emphasis on marine marauder or play like thorzain who is more monotonous and work on building up your ghost count. It is a very strong strategy and obviously warp prism harass isnt auto gg for it, I just think it's one of the main weaknesses that we haven't even seen be utilized much by protoss because... well they don't have to yet. Not trying to shit on your help btw, I was just pointing what I think to be a weakness, and obviously there are ways to deal with it. (sensor tower + viking positioning) but I think it does make that style much harder to play. | ||
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Sein
United States1811 Posts
On March 18 2012 01:22 Type|NarutO wrote: What is your reasoning behind it? Because I'm saying it is blatantly wrong what you state. I can win every 200/200 fight against Protoss with a massive amount of my army still standing and pushing forward negating warpins from 15-20 gateways. Ghosts have more DPS than marines (1 Ghost vs 1 Marine obviously) and a 3-3 ghost deals nearly as much damage per shot as he would via snipe. EMP is instant damage and nullifies archons and templars and vikings with +3 attack deal with colossi insanely fast. Take all of this with the fact that you can cloak them + snipe the observer with vikings or the ghost itself, you end up with an invisible force that Protoss can only deal with due to AoE. If you seperate ghosts from your bio army so you don't suffer colossus AoE you can nullify all the area of effect damage from Protoss. Work on your micro and the engagements and you can win every fight. I had games vs Protoss with 15000/8000 and I won, because they could not win a single engagement, hell they couldn't even come close to TRADE with me. Ghosts costs a lot of money, but ressources were never the problem of the most Terrans here, more the fact that they lose a big fight and die with 7000/4000 or something along those lines banked because they cannot produce as fast. So... the way to get into 20-30 ghosts with 3-3 is not easy, but its certainly possible. The control is not easy, but certainly possible. Give it a try before writing it off. I believe a single unstimmed marine has higher DPS than a single ghost for any unit that isn't light? Please correct me if that's wrong... Ghosts also take up 2 supply and can't retreat because they are slow. | ||
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AnalThermometer
Vatican City State334 Posts
On March 18 2012 02:07 willoc wrote: I play Terran and find this thread amusing. However, I then stumbled on your delicious argument. I am starting to think I will build ghosts instead of marines because I never noticed they did more dps! Hold up... I think I am deducing more awesome strategies from that.. why build Zerglings when Ultralisks do more dps? *facepalm* I've been doing it all wrong! You should probably try it first. There is almost nothing you can do as a Protoss vs mass Ghost and some Vikings, funnily enough the first time I camer across it was a Protoss offracing as T. It's like Zealot/Templar/Colossus ball which can cloak and annihilate air too. You can never, ever attack the Terran as your observers will fall to the vikings immidiately and all the Ghosts will cloak. The only way to win is to stop Terran getting there. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
20+ On March 18 2012 02:26 Nibbler89 wrote: Main problem with mass ghost style imo is that although most protoss don't use it, they still have that unit called a warp prism. Ghosts are slow, they can't stim and still need support, on a lot of maps terran can't force an engagement if protoss just decides to turtle their fourth or third, with warp prism harass they can stress terran enough that eventually either: a) their main army engagement won't be favorable, b) their units are split too much, giving protoss map control letting them expand / get econ advantage. Keep in mind that terran has to micro on both fronts whereas zealots you can just warp in and forget, terran doesn't have things like photon cannons to protect their main so they have to send an appropriate number of units back and stutter kite, if there are multiple warp ins / harass it gets even harder and if protoss a moves your main army when you are trying to deal with the harass and you aren't ready be prepared to get wiped. I know it's a lot to expect protoss to do 1/4 the drops terran do in tvz late game with a unit that's faster, and sturdier(terran has no feedback or blink stalker so speed warp prism should never die) than a medivac as well as costing only minerals, I mean after all, pvt is much more apm intense on the protoss than TvZ is for terran(trollface) but eventually that day will come. I do however agree that in current metagame though it seems like you either play like polt who goes for relatively constant aggression with a more heavy emphasis on marine marauder or play like thorzain who is more monotonous and work on building up your ghost count. It is a very strong strategy and obviously warp prism harass isnt auto gg for it, I just think it's one of the main weaknesses that we haven't even seen be utilized much by protoss because... well they don't have to yet. Not trying to shit on your help btw, I was just pointing what I think to be a weakness, and obviously there are ways to deal with it. (sensor tower + viking positioning) but I think it does make that style much harder to play. I think sensor towers and turret walls or the mobility of vikings should be used the deal with those problems. You are very corect that a lot of ghosts are far less mobile than the usual bio, but I think you need to sacrifice a bit of mobility for power there. Also yes, sometimes I end up sitting there and the Protoss does the same, whoever attacks or is not well positioned does lose. If he turtles and you cannot kill their observer and/or he has cannons its very hard, but its all doable. I think one of the main problems is that a lot of Terrans or even the majority is not willing to put themselves into those late game situations where they actually can practice it. Most try to end the game early and even though they might be the better player, if you try to finish off the Protoss but you cannot do so you will end up sacrificing economy or throw minerals at him and if you end up in lategame then, you will lose. If you set up defenses early and macro well, you can build on that scary army , because most Protoss as you said play either a very defensive style and usually don't engage Terran even though they sometimes have superior armies (thats how much Terran is in their head)... so you can be good. Its a tricky match up, but writing it off as unwinnable doesn't do good to any Terran. On March 18 2012 02:40 Sein wrote: I believe a single unstimmed marine has higher DPS than a single ghost for any unit that isn't light? Please correct me if that's wrong... Ghosts also take up 2 supply and can't retreat because they are slow. This is correct. Yet the Protoss army mainly consists of either light units (zealots) or high-shield units like the archon or even colossi. Ghosts deal insanely high amounts of damage to light and can EMP all of the shields which could be instant 2000-3000 damage depending on the composition. Pair that with the fact that 1 single ghost, even though 2 supply also nearly doubles the health of a marine.. you get an insanely good unit (mix). I also believe that 2x55 HP is not as good as 1x 100 hp, because the Protoss AoE if it hits will make short work of marines, but it won't make short work off ghosts. Especially considering you have 45hp after stim. | ||
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willoc
Canada1530 Posts
On March 18 2012 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote: Please explain your point, as I did explain mine. Ressources were never the problem for Terrans in lategame. What level do you play on, because I don't want to sound arrogant but I'm pretty sure I can savely assume I play higher level than you do. Happy goes for mass Ghost as well and beat MaNa yesterday, one of the very best EU PvT players. But you can act all cocky and without any respect as much as you want. I actually try to help and instead of blatantly bashing the match up or crying I'm trying to improve on whatever I can. Maybe I'll try to put it this way: exactly where were you going when comparing ghosts with marines the way you did? You might be a good SC2 player (I am Diamond btw) but that doesn't mean your arguments are at the same level. In fact, I think your logic is massively flawed. | ||
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NoctemSC
United States771 Posts
On March 18 2012 00:46 awesomoecalypse wrote: Where did all the terrans go? Into Code S, apparently. Comparing 10 Terrans to the other 150k Terrans is a poor example my friend. | ||
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