|
On March 17 2012 23:50 Type|NarutO wrote:
Why are so few Terrans using mass ghosts in the very late game I'm curious. Please explain why you personally don't use them as much?
I play at 1000 Points Master in Europe atm.
I try to go mass ghost lategame versus protoss. But i, most of the time, can't pull it off.
I am on equal bases with P , defensive Position PF at 4th.. he just runs in with max crushes me, remaxes in 20 second .. im dead
no way
gg
... you already have to have 30 ghosts, then a big part of my army is still alive after P runs in maxed, and he cant insta remax.
but in the process of getting what i want, i die.
|
noobs don't know that ghosts do more damage than every terran unit vs p (zeals melt instantly). They have the false perception that ghosts are simply a counter ht unit, when they are not. The idea is to slowly replace marauders out of your army completely with ghosts. Marauders suck, ghosts rock (all the people who qq don't understand this at all)
Basically listen to naruto and stop arguing with him, hes right and you are wrong
|
On March 18 2012 02:46 biology]major wrote:
noobs don't know that ghosts do more damage than every terran unit vs p (zeals melt instantly). They have the false perception that ghosts are simply a counter ht unit, when they are not. The idea is to slowly replace marauders out of your army completely with ghosts. Marauders suck, ghosts rock (all the people who qq don't understand this at all)
Basically listen to naruto and stop arguing with him, hes right and you are wrong
Collosus counters ghosts pretty well.
|
On March 18 2012 02:43 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 18 2012 02:07 willoc wrote:On March 18 2012 01:22 Type|NarutO wrote:
Ghosts have more DPS than marines (1 Ghost vs 1 Marine obviously) and a 3-3 ghost deals nearly as much damage per shot as he would via snipe. EMP is instant damage and nullifies archons and templars and vikings with +3 attack deal with colossi insanely fast.
I play Terran and find this thread amusing. However, I then stumbled on your delicious argument. I am starting to think I will build ghosts instead of marines because I never noticed they did more dps! Hold up... I think I am deducing more awesome strategies from that.. why build Zerglings when Ultralisks do more dps? *facepalm* I've been doing it all wrong! Please explain your point, as I did explain mine. Ressources were never the problem for Terrans in lategame. What level do you play on, because I don't want to sound arrogant but I'm pretty sure I can savely assume I play higher level than you do. Happy goes for mass Ghost as well and beat MaNa yesterday, one of the very best EU PvT players. But you can act all cocky and without any respect as much as you want. I actually try to help and instead of blatantly bashing the match up or crying I'm trying to improve on whatever I can. Maybe I'll try to put it this way: exactly where were you going when comparing ghosts with marines the way you did? You might be a good SC2 player (I am Diamond btw) but that doesn't mean your arguments are at the same level. In fact, I think your logic is massively flawed.
Yet you cannot name any point or you are simply not willing to explain what exactly is massively flawed. There is no flaw, there are different opinions. There are points in army compositions you can base your play on. Mass ghosts in the combination I named is one of the strongest hitting forces yet not as mobile... thats what you have to choose. Power over mobility? Or the other way around.
Obviously you can win with marine/marauder and a few ghosts, if you can control well, but most of us are not capable of doing so... but I'll wait, maybe you can get over yourself and explain why my logic is MASSIVELY flawed.
|
its very strange to see T's die with a shitton of gas banked, then complain that their lategame armies suck, but if told to build more pricey lategame tech, respond that its "too expensive". Ravens, particularly with HSM, are a good example. Same with mass Ghost/mass nuke style ala MVP's lategame.
|
On March 18 2012 02:48 OtoshimonoU wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:46 biology]major wrote:
noobs don't know that ghosts do more damage than every terran unit vs p (zeals melt instantly). They have the false perception that ghosts are simply a counter ht unit, when they are not. The idea is to slowly replace marauders out of your army completely with ghosts. Marauders suck, ghosts rock (all the people who qq don't understand this at all)
Basically listen to naruto and stop arguing with him, hes right and you are wrong Collosus counters ghosts pretty well.
16-18 +3 Vikings will make short work of even high colossi count, personally I think you are correct and I'm not saying it will be easy vs a high colossus count, yet the ghost/viking play can even work against that. Its about control and positioning once more there.
|
On March 18 2012 02:48 OtoshimonoU wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:46 biology]major wrote:
noobs don't know that ghosts do more damage than every terran unit vs p (zeals melt instantly). They have the false perception that ghosts are simply a counter ht unit, when they are not. The idea is to slowly replace marauders out of your army completely with ghosts. Marauders suck, ghosts rock (all the people who qq don't understand this at all)
Basically listen to naruto and stop arguing with him, hes right and you are wrong Collosus counters ghosts pretty well.
obviously you make vikings as needed. Ideal late game comp is simply 20+ ghosts ( as naruto said) , 3 vikings per colo, 4-6 meds, and rest marines. The reason for this is because even though you can win a fight vs protoss with a marauder ghost based army, its not nearly as efficient at cleaning up reinforcements from 20+ gates.
It's kinda like what qxc said "if you make marauders you die, and if you make marines and cant micro you die" lose/lose situation for noobs 
|
On March 18 2012 02:48 OtoshimonoU wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:46 biology]major wrote:
noobs don't know that ghosts do more damage than every terran unit vs p (zeals melt instantly). They have the false perception that ghosts are simply a counter ht unit, when they are not. The idea is to slowly replace marauders out of your army completely with ghosts. Marauders suck, ghosts rock (all the people who qq don't understand this at all)
Basically listen to naruto and stop arguing with him, hes right and you are wrong Collosus counters ghosts pretty well.
Vikings counter Collosi pretty well too.
Ghosts have pretty high health, they can stand a few collosi hits.
One thing that I believe Naruto didn't touch on was the scan trick.
When protoss moves out, you scan the army, snipe the observer with the vikings, pull vikings back, cloak Ghosts and go to town with EMPs. You then run in with the rest of your army. Cloaked Ghosts on hold command act as a mini-forcefield line against zealots, forcing them to run around to get to the MMM.
|
On March 18 2012 02:40 AnalThermometer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:07 willoc wrote:On March 18 2012 01:22 Type|NarutO wrote:
Ghosts have more DPS than marines (1 Ghost vs 1 Marine obviously) and a 3-3 ghost deals nearly as much damage per shot as he would via snipe. EMP is instant damage and nullifies archons and templars and vikings with +3 attack deal with colossi insanely fast.
I play Terran and find this thread amusing. However, I then stumbled on your delicious argument. I am starting to think I will build ghosts instead of marines because I never noticed they did more dps! Hold up... I think I am deducing more awesome strategies from that.. why build Zerglings when Ultralisks do more dps? *facepalm* I've been doing it all wrong! You should probably try it first. There is almost nothing you can do as a Protoss vs mass Ghost and some Vikings, funnily enough the first time I camer across it was a Protoss offracing as T. It's like Zealot/Templar/Colossus ball which can cloak and annihilate air too. You can never, ever attack the Terran as your observers will fall to the vikings immidiately and all the Ghosts will cloak. The only way to win is to stop Terran getting there.
It even gets more ridiculous when Terran adds on nukes and replaces their worker supply with BCs that come with +3 or even 3/3 thanks to viking upgrades. Like you, I also see this mostly from Protoss players offracing as Terran. I guess it's not surprising considering how good Protoss players are at playing in the lategame, but still it's funny how I fear Protoss offracing as Terran just as much as main race Terran players. Once there are 20+ ghosts, the EMP radius nerf doesn't even matter and it's just like playing 2 patches ago against 15+ ghosts.
|
Yeah some good points especially this "Most try to end the game early and even though they might be the better player, if you try to finish off the Protoss but you cannot do so you will end up sacrificing economy or throw minerals at him and if you end up in lategame then, you will lose.
If you set up defenses early and macro well, you can build on that scary army" though when it comes to my own play.
Although I feel polts style suits me better I think I may have to start experimenting more with the mass ghost way.
I agree it's definitely not unwinnable and especially considering how most protoss players play(like i said pretty much none of them ever use warp prisms other than shit like warp prism dt in early game) mass ghost seems like it'd make things easier on me.
Then again maybe if we get crying marine on front page and everyone just agrees its unwinnable maybe they will make our upgrades cheaper give thors +1 range remove energy bar,and give vikings +2 range and shoot while moving from fusion core. while at the same time reducing storm radius by 50% and hts now cost 300 minerals100 gas(more mineral heavy means its a buff right!?) 
Nukes imo are a pretty terrible investment that relies more on your opponent messing up. I don't understand why the terran is expected to be able to drop and nuke all over the place was well as having more difficult micro during the engagement but protoss can't be expected to consistently do warp prism harass when it takes so much more effort to deal with than to do, unlike terran drops vs p because terran actually has to micro vs zealots not the other way around as well as not having blink stalkers, feed back, storm, or warp in.
|
ghosts are immobile, cant stutter with them and stalkers own you before you can get out enough marauders you're already dead.
if your opponent is bad enough to lose all his observors good for you but any cloaked unit is unbeatable then.
|
It even gets more ridiculous when Terran adds on nukes and replaces their worker supply with BCs that come with +3 or even 3/3 thanks to viking upgrades.
Nukes really are a gamechanger. A Terran who really commits to a lot of ghosts and a lot of nukes, and who can multitask well enough to get the most out of them, is utterly terrifying.
|
On March 18 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:43 willoc wrote:On March 18 2012 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 18 2012 02:07 willoc wrote:On March 18 2012 01:22 Type|NarutO wrote:
Ghosts have more DPS than marines (1 Ghost vs 1 Marine obviously) and a 3-3 ghost deals nearly as much damage per shot as he would via snipe. EMP is instant damage and nullifies archons and templars and vikings with +3 attack deal with colossi insanely fast.
I play Terran and find this thread amusing. However, I then stumbled on your delicious argument. I am starting to think I will build ghosts instead of marines because I never noticed they did more dps! Hold up... I think I am deducing more awesome strategies from that.. why build Zerglings when Ultralisks do more dps? *facepalm* I've been doing it all wrong! Please explain your point, as I did explain mine. Ressources were never the problem for Terrans in lategame. What level do you play on, because I don't want to sound arrogant but I'm pretty sure I can savely assume I play higher level than you do. Happy goes for mass Ghost as well and beat MaNa yesterday, one of the very best EU PvT players. But you can act all cocky and without any respect as much as you want. I actually try to help and instead of blatantly bashing the match up or crying I'm trying to improve on whatever I can. Maybe I'll try to put it this way: exactly where were you going when comparing ghosts with marines the way you did? You might be a good SC2 player (I am Diamond btw) but that doesn't mean your arguments are at the same level. In fact, I think your logic is massively flawed. Yet you cannot name any point or you are simply not willing to explain what exactly is massively flawed. There is no flaw, there are different opinions. There are points in army compositions you can base your play on. Mass ghosts in the combination I named is one of the strongest hitting forces yet not as mobile... thats what you have to choose. Power over mobility? Or the other way around. Obviously you can win with marine/marauder and a few ghosts, if you can control well, but most of us are not capable of doing so... but I'll wait, maybe you can get over yourself and explain why my logic is MASSIVELY flawed.
I agree the TvP match-up is fine. I never said it wasn't. I agree with your end result. Some of the logic you used to get to your point makes no sense. Do you see what I am saying now?
Please don't start with personal e-peen attacks.
|
On March 18 2012 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
its very strange to see T's die with a shitton of gas banked, then complain that their lategame armies suck, but if told to build more pricey lategame tech, respond that its "too expensive". Ravens, particularly with HSM, are a good example. Same with mass Ghost/mass nuke style ala MVP's lategame.
I don't think most terrans respond it's too expensive they respond that their gas dumps aren't very good compared to protoss.
HT/archon are 3:1 gas to min ratio and both do aoe, collosus is 3:2 min gas ratio, aoe.
Terran has marine all mineral, marauder 4:1 mineral, ghosts 2:1 mineral, viking 2:1 mineral. Siege tanks end up hurting yourself more in tvp because of chargelots so you can't make those, thors are 3:2 but are slowest unit in the game and can be feedbacked also don't share upgrades, BC's can be feedbacked and have long build time, Raven range is too short and will just be feedbacked and adds even more ctrl groups / stress, it is also faster than your army and flies and clumps so it takes additional control. Protoss units are pretty big so the splash on HSM is pretty useless. TBH probably the main thing I'd experiment with is adding on tech lab starports to help remax faster by spending gas on banshees who have pretty good dps and min to gas ratio as well as benefiting from the air weapons. If I was gonna use ravens I'd only use them for PDD / detection.
|
On March 18 2012 02:54 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:40 AnalThermometer wrote:On March 18 2012 02:07 willoc wrote:On March 18 2012 01:22 Type|NarutO wrote:
Ghosts have more DPS than marines (1 Ghost vs 1 Marine obviously) and a 3-3 ghost deals nearly as much damage per shot as he would via snipe. EMP is instant damage and nullifies archons and templars and vikings with +3 attack deal with colossi insanely fast.
I play Terran and find this thread amusing. However, I then stumbled on your delicious argument. I am starting to think I will build ghosts instead of marines because I never noticed they did more dps! Hold up... I think I am deducing more awesome strategies from that.. why build Zerglings when Ultralisks do more dps? *facepalm* I've been doing it all wrong! You should probably try it first. There is almost nothing you can do as a Protoss vs mass Ghost and some Vikings, funnily enough the first time I camer across it was a Protoss offracing as T. It's like Zealot/Templar/Colossus ball which can cloak and annihilate air too. You can never, ever attack the Terran as your observers will fall to the vikings immidiately and all the Ghosts will cloak. The only way to win is to stop Terran getting there. It even gets more ridiculous when Terran adds on nukes and replaces their worker supply with BCs that come with +3 or even 3/3 thanks to viking upgrades. Like you, I also see this mostly from Protoss players offracing as Terran. I guess it's not surprising considering how good Protoss players are at playing in the lategame, but still it's funny how I fear Protoss offracing as Terran just as much as main race Terran players. Once there are 20+ ghosts, the EMP radius nerf doesn't even matter and it's just like playing 2 patches ago against 15+ ghosts.
You clearly have no idea how to play a Tvp. Mass ghosts, Bc's, +3 on vikings?. you must be on 5bases. how did you get there? right. you died before the fusion core was done.
I agree, BC is the awnser for Tvp late game, but you simply dont have the money or oportunity to do so. Hell, i play 99% macro games and i cant rebember last time i was banking mineral/gas vs protoss.
400mineral bc and 200mineral ghost is just to much, considering you also need MMMV.
|
I'm a plat terran in NA, and for what it's worth I think the current metagame is fairly balanced. TvZ, I play a defensive, macro oriented mech style into an air transition and try to starve the zerg out. It makes for a very fun, dynamic matchup. TvT is also fine. There's plenty of options: bio, sky terran, mech... all viable, makes for interesting games.
However, TvP feels rather lackluster in comparison. Yes there's many all-ins to choose from on both sides... whatever... cheese doesn't do it for me personally. In a relatively standard game you have one option: MMM/Viking/Ghost. Terran air gets raped by stalker/templar and mech units are hard countered by immortals, so bio with viking support is all that's left.
Granted, it OWNS the midgame. Timing attack as the protoss's third warps in + a drop somewhere is usually enough to win at my level. But when the protoss does survive into the late game, and begins transitioning into gateway units + archon/colossi/temp, bio begins to feel quite shabby in comparison. I really wish there was something to transition into at that point. Mass tank maybe.
The balance doesn't really bother me. It's more the lack of options or an effective late game army. As an Sc1 terran, I love the lategame, and I love having a more cost-efficient ground army (even if it means having to slow push across the map!)
|
On March 18 2012 03:34 Tsuki.eu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:54 iamke55 wrote:On March 18 2012 02:40 AnalThermometer wrote:On March 18 2012 02:07 willoc wrote:On March 18 2012 01:22 Type|NarutO wrote:
Ghosts have more DPS than marines (1 Ghost vs 1 Marine obviously) and a 3-3 ghost deals nearly as much damage per shot as he would via snipe. EMP is instant damage and nullifies archons and templars and vikings with +3 attack deal with colossi insanely fast.
I play Terran and find this thread amusing. However, I then stumbled on your delicious argument. I am starting to think I will build ghosts instead of marines because I never noticed they did more dps! Hold up... I think I am deducing more awesome strategies from that.. why build Zerglings when Ultralisks do more dps? *facepalm* I've been doing it all wrong! You should probably try it first. There is almost nothing you can do as a Protoss vs mass Ghost and some Vikings, funnily enough the first time I camer across it was a Protoss offracing as T. It's like Zealot/Templar/Colossus ball which can cloak and annihilate air too. You can never, ever attack the Terran as your observers will fall to the vikings immidiately and all the Ghosts will cloak. The only way to win is to stop Terran getting there. It even gets more ridiculous when Terran adds on nukes and replaces their worker supply with BCs that come with +3 or even 3/3 thanks to viking upgrades. Like you, I also see this mostly from Protoss players offracing as Terran. I guess it's not surprising considering how good Protoss players are at playing in the lategame, but still it's funny how I fear Protoss offracing as Terran just as much as main race Terran players. Once there are 20+ ghosts, the EMP radius nerf doesn't even matter and it's just like playing 2 patches ago against 15+ ghosts. You clearly have no idea how to play a Tvp. Mass ghosts, Bc's, +3 on vikings?. you must be on 5bases. how did you get there? right. you died before the fusion core was done. I agree, BC is the awnser for Tvp late game, but you simply dont have the money or oportunity to do so. Hell, i play 99% macro games and i cant rebember last time i was banking mineral/gas vs protoss. 400mineral bc and 200mineral ghost is just to much, considering you also need MMMV.
i love when protoss players tell us to build battlecruiser, as if you could ever really do that and it's not like they can get feedbacked. I find it ridiculous how protoss players suggest things they clearly don't understand. If you don't play terran then it's best to just shut up and talk about your own race, rather than a race you clearly don't understand at all. It's not just that they don't understand the race, it almost seems like they don't understand the matchup as a whole. BCs are utter crap in TvP, there is absolutely nothing about BCs that makes them scarry, once you banked enough money to actually build BCs, the protoss has 20 gates and can just reinforce with whatever units he needs to kill them.
This is just herp derp by some people who don't know what they are talking about.
And mass nukes, really? Nukes are "nice" but they are not a gamechanger, never ever will a nuke connect with the opponent's army unless they are absolutely awful. And ghosts+nukes+ BCs, where do you get that money from? That's just ridiculous. Some people must seriously think that ghosts are alot cheaper than they actually are and that nukes are for free, which they by the way aren't.
|
On March 17 2012 23:50 Type|NarutO wrote:
Why are so few Terrans using mass ghosts in the very late game I'm curious. Please explain why you personally don't use them as much?
Would you be able to post a replay of you using this strat effectively? Because as it is now, no one really knows what you're on about. It's all nice and good to throw around hypothetical s. But many of us would mass 15-20 ghosts as it was before the nerf and still get pooped on. So...
|
It really pains me to see some silly stuff that some high tier terrans say sometimes, not only it hurts the overall cohesion amongst terran players and discredits some valid points and concerns but also make me wonder how did they actualy managed to get to that level.
This reminds me actualy of that korean player that said in 2011 that he thinks that there are terran players in Code S that dont deserve to be there and were only carried by their race and then next season he himself dropped to Code A.
Yeah, all those silly terrans having problems with TvP dont know about ghosts, obviously you just have to make 200/200 ghosts and win.
Mass ghosts is a solution for those protosses that have shit control and just make mass zealots and archons, however a protoss that isnt lazy will, after seeing an increase in ghost numbers, cut zealots , HT and archons, add more stalkers and colossus, proceed to come ahead in the engage and then when the terran starts thinking about adding marauders (thus making the standard MMMG setup) the protoss just warps in 30 zealots and a-moves.
And stop saying even more stupid shit like "Hey you snipe the observer" or "hey you use the ghosts cloaked to block other units" like if its something viable to do every game especialy for ppl under masters and if like ghosts have infinite energy.
|
On March 18 2012 02:52 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:48 OtoshimonoU wrote:On March 18 2012 02:46 biology]major wrote:
noobs don't know that ghosts do more damage than every terran unit vs p (zeals melt instantly). They have the false perception that ghosts are simply a counter ht unit, when they are not. The idea is to slowly replace marauders out of your army completely with ghosts. Marauders suck, ghosts rock (all the people who qq don't understand this at all)
Basically listen to naruto and stop arguing with him, hes right and you are wrong Collosus counters ghosts pretty well. obviously you make vikings as needed. Ideal late game comp is simply 20+ ghosts ( as naruto said) , 3 vikings per colo, 4-6 meds, and rest marines. The reason for this is because even though you can win a fight vs protoss with a marauder ghost based army, its not nearly as efficient at cleaning up reinforcements from 20+ gates. It's kinda like what qxc said "if you make marauders you die, and if you make marines and cant micro you die" lose/lose situation for noobs
Ideal comp for MMMGV is actually 12 full energy ghosts (20 if not full energy), 16 vikings (or 3 per colossus if toss has <5 colossi), 1 marauder for every stalker, fill rest of your supply with marines. Mass ghost is not cost effective in the least it's better to spend your money on transitioning to bcs with defensive pfs. Mass 3/3 bc beats pretty much any standard protoss composition but is extremely difficult to transition into safely.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
