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On March 16 2012 10:30 Fishriot wrote:
I'm not trying to troll here, but I'm sure it will come off as one so whatevs.
I think most terran thought they were "good", or at the the very least making progress at SC2 with their terribly over powered race. After the race was brought in line with the other two, they got frustrated that they were all of a sudden required to have some mechanical skill and game knowledge into order to win any of their games, and decided to quit instead of putting in the effort to learn the game. This doesn't come as much of a surprise to me, as they were used to the satisfaction of winning without having to buckle down and actually improve themselves.
Just my 2cents.
Although this sounds like trolling a good bit I would agree to this. Atleast it could be a reason. Because honestly Terran is Still very strong as you can see with the amount of Terran pros compared to other pros e.g. in the GSL.
I think the problem simply is, that Terran has the feeling of getting nerfed all the time and not seeing it is necessary to nerf 'em.
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Nah, Terran is just the hardest race to play with the highest skill cap.
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On March 18 2012 04:57 ZenithM wrote:
...
Remember, ghosts are one of the most cost/supply efficient unit in the game (the most, probably).
fun fact: if you count 1 gas = 1 mineral (and I know many disagree that this is the case, but my point does not need these exact numbers to be true), ghosts are one of 3 units which are the most expensive by supply in the entire game, they cost 150 resources per supply (if 1 resource = 1gas = 1 mineral), the only other units to do so is:
raven, baneling 150 resource/supply
then broodlord at 137 resources/supply
after that its void ray at 133 resources/supply
then its something like 10 different units all tied at 125 resource/supply (including DT, archon, infestor)
battlecruiser, carrier (after buying 4 additional interceptors) 116
mothership, carrier (without buying additional interceptors) 100
...
drone, SCV, probe, zealot, marine, zergling, hellion, roach are all 50 resources/supply and are tied at dead last
the above list is not complete, just a few noteworthy examples.
so I would say that the supply efficiency of ghosts come from the fact that very much money is concentrated into a small amount of supply, when this small amount of supply gets large (by mass production), very few armies can match its actual resource value, and thus must be weaker for balance sake (ignoring the existence of counters and unittype vs unittype efficiency).
edit: I had the carrier numbers wrong, fixed now
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On March 18 2012 06:01 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 05:04 sushichef wrote:
That's true, but I'd wager than 90% of the issue with TvP for casual players is 3-3 zealots + mass warpgates. Protoss just does not die then, whereas you often do because of one mistake.
A simple solution would be to change shields/HP ratio on zealots: it would make chronoed armor upgrades less effective, it would make ghosts stronger, and it wouldn't affect PvZ much. Or just remove autocast charge
This wouldn't help much. Today many protoss usually waste their charge on the first thing they see and this is something terrans can use to their advantage. I've seen this in many gsl matches where the terran tries bait charge with a single unit/ building.
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On March 18 2012 05:04 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 04:52 Type|NarutO wrote:
I might argue that if Terran receives buffs that make the game easier will completely fuck balance and shift it in Terrans favor. I mean I feel very sorry for lower level players and I know how frustrating TvP can be, yet you cannot buff a race based on the lower - level. Imagine how much EASIER would a buff make Terran for high-level then.. if you were already able to pull victories vs Protoss.
Not saying Protoss cannot win or Terran is imbalanced, just saying you have to be careful what to buff..
That's true, but I'd wager than 90% of the issue with TvP for casual players is 3-3 zealots + mass warpgates. Protoss just does not die then, whereas you often do because of one mistake. A simple solution would be to change shields/HP ratio on zealots: it would make chronoed armor upgrades less effective, it would make ghosts stronger, and it wouldn't affect PvZ much. Or remove thors energy bar to let terrans experiment a bit. No effect on TvZ with this change.
90% of the issues for casual players is that they try to play like pros (aggressive with low Tier compositions) but can't make it work, while they could just go Mech and roll most maxed protoss armies, because their opponents are not good enough to do all the multipronged harass and techswitches needed to deal with a meching Terran.
And blizzard did remove the energy bars. The outcome was that Terrans combined Marines (which dealt with most things) with Thors (which dealt with most things; especially with the ones that dealt with marines) and got compositions that were not intended to work with the original unit setup, so they added the energy again.
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this thread is aids, a bunch of plat-diamond players arguing with pros on their thoughts on the game. Naruto is actually trying to respond with such low level players even though they pretty much ignore everything o_O
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On March 18 2012 06:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 05:04 sushichef wrote:On March 18 2012 04:52 Type|NarutO wrote:
I might argue that if Terran receives buffs that make the game easier will completely fuck balance and shift it in Terrans favor. I mean I feel very sorry for lower level players and I know how frustrating TvP can be, yet you cannot buff a race based on the lower - level. Imagine how much EASIER would a buff make Terran for high-level then.. if you were already able to pull victories vs Protoss.
Not saying Protoss cannot win or Terran is imbalanced, just saying you have to be careful what to buff..
That's true, but I'd wager than 90% of the issue with TvP for casual players is 3-3 zealots + mass warpgates. Protoss just does not die then, whereas you often do because of one mistake. A simple solution would be to change shields/HP ratio on zealots: it would make chronoed armor upgrades less effective, it would make ghosts stronger, and it wouldn't affect PvZ much. Or remove thors energy bar to let terrans experiment a bit. No effect on TvZ with this change. 90% of the issues for casual players is that they try to play like pros (aggressive with low Tier compositions) but can't make it work, while they could just go Mech and roll most maxed protoss armies, because their opponents are not good enough to do all the multipronged harass and techswitches needed to deal with a meching Terran. And blizzard did remove the energy bars. The outcome was that Terrans combined Marines (which dealt with most things) with Thors (which dealt with most things; especially with the ones that dealt with marines) and got compositions that were not intended to work with the original unit setup, so they added the energy again.
As P you dont have to harass a meching terran if anything the terran has to get alot of probes kill through harass with hellions or something or he will loose.
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On March 18 2012 06:13 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 04:57 ZenithM wrote:
...
Remember, ghosts are one of the most cost/supply efficient unit in the game (the most, probably).
fun fact: if you count 1 gas = 1 mineral (and I know many disagree that this is the case, but my point does not need these exact numbers to be true), ghosts are one of 3 units which are the most expensive by supply in the entire game, they cost 150 resources per supply (if 1 resource = 1gas = 1 mineral), the only other units to do so is: raven, baneling 150 resource/supply then broodlord at 137 resources/supply after that its void ray at 133 resources/supply then its something like 10 different units all tied at 125 resource/supply (including DT, archon, infestor) battlecruiser, carrier (after buying 4 additional interceptors) 116 mothership, carrier (without buying additional interceptors) 100 ... drone, SCV, probe, zealot, marine, zergling, hellion, roach are all 50 resources/supply and are tied at dead last the above list is not complete, just a few noteworthy examples. so I would say that the supply efficiency of ghosts come from the fact that very much money is concentrated into a small amount of supply, when this small amount of supply gets large (by mass production), very few armies can match its actual resource value, and thus must be weaker for balance sake (ignoring the existence of counters and unittype vs unittype efficiency). edit: I had the carrier numbers wrong, fixed now
fun fact, what you said is totally true, and therefore means that "sit back and just try to defend while you get as many ghosts as possible, because your maxed army will be extremly strong" is a great strategy in a lot of cases.
True before the patch ghosts were that much more potent (mostly vs zerg), but mass ghosts is still pretty good, because it is simply more supplyefficient then the usual marinebased stuff and therefore building ghosts deals directly with the problem that your maxed bio army is somewhat weak in some scenarios.
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On March 18 2012 06:27 Killcani wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 06:21 Big J wrote:On March 18 2012 05:04 sushichef wrote:On March 18 2012 04:52 Type|NarutO wrote:
I might argue that if Terran receives buffs that make the game easier will completely fuck balance and shift it in Terrans favor. I mean I feel very sorry for lower level players and I know how frustrating TvP can be, yet you cannot buff a race based on the lower - level. Imagine how much EASIER would a buff make Terran for high-level then.. if you were already able to pull victories vs Protoss.
Not saying Protoss cannot win or Terran is imbalanced, just saying you have to be careful what to buff..
That's true, but I'd wager than 90% of the issue with TvP for casual players is 3-3 zealots + mass warpgates. Protoss just does not die then, whereas you often do because of one mistake. A simple solution would be to change shields/HP ratio on zealots: it would make chronoed armor upgrades less effective, it would make ghosts stronger, and it wouldn't affect PvZ much. Or remove thors energy bar to let terrans experiment a bit. No effect on TvZ with this change. 90% of the issues for casual players is that they try to play like pros (aggressive with low Tier compositions) but can't make it work, while they could just go Mech and roll most maxed protoss armies, because their opponents are not good enough to do all the multipronged harass and techswitches needed to deal with a meching Terran. And blizzard did remove the energy bars. The outcome was that Terrans combined Marines (which dealt with most things) with Thors (which dealt with most things; especially with the ones that dealt with marines) and got compositions that were not intended to work with the original unit setup, so they added the energy again. As P you dont have to harass a meching terran if anything the terran has to get alot of probes kill through harass with hellions or something or he will loose.
That's simply not true. Of course you should play active with your banshees and hellions, but a proper Terran Mech composition beats pretty much every Protoss composition in a head on fight, which allows the Terran to turtle to 200/200, so all the harass before is pretty much only there to keep a protoss honest, not to do actual "huge" damage.
The real mech problems start against people who are good with blink stalkers, who warp in all around the map while exanding, who mix in air switches and harass and who manage to delay Terrans 200/200 army.
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On March 18 2012 06:21 Big J wrote:
90% of the issues for casual players is that they try to play like pros (aggressive with low Tier compositions) but can't make it work, while they could just go Mech and roll most maxed protoss armies, because their opponents are not good enough to do all the multipronged harass and techswitches needed to deal with a meching Terran.
And blizzard did remove the energy bars. The outcome was that Terrans combined Marines (which dealt with most things) with Thors (which dealt with most things; especially with the ones that dealt with marines) and got compositions that were not intended to work with the original unit setup, so they added the energy again.
Mech is much harder to play than bio in TvP - you have to open safely, you need to do economy damage, and it takes way way more skill to get the right composition and position your stuff properly than to blink into a main to take out all production or to chrono out immortals.
Energy bars were added back after one series of games between MC and Thorzain pretty much. I'd rather they were gone and that thors get a nerf than have a completely useless unit outside of some weird early timing attacks.
Thors do not deal with stuff that kills marines (HTs, colossi, archons) and get roflstomped by immortal, chargelot, colossus.
On March 18 2012 06:25 biology]major wrote:
this thread is aids, a bunch of plat-diamond players arguing with pros on their thoughts on the game. Naruto is actually trying to respond with such low level players even though they pretty much ignore everything o_O
Guess you didn't see the part of the thread where Beastyqt agrees about TvP and cites Korean pros he's talked to?
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On March 18 2012 06:25 biology]major wrote:
this thread is aids, a bunch of plat-diamond players arguing with pros on their thoughts on the game. Naruto is actually trying to respond with such low level players even though they pretty much ignore everything o_O
Did you even read Beastyqt's post?.. -.-;;
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On March 18 2012 06:34 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 06:21 Big J wrote:
90% of the issues for casual players is that they try to play like pros (aggressive with low Tier compositions) but can't make it work, while they could just go Mech and roll most maxed protoss armies, because their opponents are not good enough to do all the multipronged harass and techswitches needed to deal with a meching Terran.
And blizzard did remove the energy bars. The outcome was that Terrans combined Marines (which dealt with most things) with Thors (which dealt with most things; especially with the ones that dealt with marines) and got compositions that were not intended to work with the original unit setup, so they added the energy again. Mech is much harder to play than bio in TvP - you have to open safely, you need to do economy damage, and it takes way way more skill to get the right composition and position your stuff properly than to blink into a main to take out all production or to chrono out immortals. Energy bars were added back after one series of games between MC and Thorzain pretty much. I'd rather they were gone and that thors get a nerf than have a completely useless unit outside of some weird early timing attacks.
Wait wait wait... after 70 sites of Terran whine how P and Z can sit back and only have to position themselves correctly and only punish people who get greedy with supermobile units (like zerglings, mutalisks, warpins, stalkers - as meching player with banshees and hellions) and how this is so supereasy and all that stuff, a Terran wants to tell me that it is generally harder to play such a style (Mech)?
To be fair, I'm staying by my opinion: both things are hard and sooner or later you have to learn both regardless of the race and style you play. Still, I am amazed by this outburst of honestness 
And Strike Canons were used like that before the MC vs Thorzain game by some players, that game was pretty much just the one that made it famous (foreigner beating GSL champion with Thors)
Edit after reading your edit:
On March 18 2012 06:34 sushichef wrote:
Thors do not deal with stuff that kills marines (HTs, colossi, archons) and get roflstomped by immortal, chargelot, colossus.
Thors with the buffed strike canon version actually dealt with Colossi and Archons and Immortals, which was the reason those were used. One strike canon per tech unit, leads to 1 stunned (=useless) and dead unit while your Thor survives.
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On March 18 2012 06:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 06:27 Killcani wrote:On March 18 2012 06:21 Big J wrote:On March 18 2012 05:04 sushichef wrote:On March 18 2012 04:52 Type|NarutO wrote:
I might argue that if Terran receives buffs that make the game easier will completely fuck balance and shift it in Terrans favor. I mean I feel very sorry for lower level players and I know how frustrating TvP can be, yet you cannot buff a race based on the lower - level. Imagine how much EASIER would a buff make Terran for high-level then.. if you were already able to pull victories vs Protoss.
Not saying Protoss cannot win or Terran is imbalanced, just saying you have to be careful what to buff..
That's true, but I'd wager than 90% of the issue with TvP for casual players is 3-3 zealots + mass warpgates. Protoss just does not die then, whereas you often do because of one mistake. A simple solution would be to change shields/HP ratio on zealots: it would make chronoed armor upgrades less effective, it would make ghosts stronger, and it wouldn't affect PvZ much. Or remove thors energy bar to let terrans experiment a bit. No effect on TvZ with this change. 90% of the issues for casual players is that they try to play like pros (aggressive with low Tier compositions) but can't make it work, while they could just go Mech and roll most maxed protoss armies, because their opponents are not good enough to do all the multipronged harass and techswitches needed to deal with a meching Terran. And blizzard did remove the energy bars. The outcome was that Terrans combined Marines (which dealt with most things) with Thors (which dealt with most things; especially with the ones that dealt with marines) and got compositions that were not intended to work with the original unit setup, so they added the energy again. As P you dont have to harass a meching terran if anything the terran has to get alot of probes kill through harass with hellions or something or he will loose. That's simply not true. Of course you should play active with your banshees and hellions, but a proper Terran Mech composition beats pretty much every Protoss composition in a head on fight, which allows the Terran to turtle to 200/200, so all the harass before is pretty much only there to keep a protoss honest, not to do actual "huge" damage. The real mech problems start against people who are good with blink stalkers, who warp in all around the map while exanding, who mix in air switches and harass and who manage to delay Terrans 200/200 army.
Huh? even if you manage to get 200/200 with mech which takes ALONG freaking time the protoss will just sac his 200supply when terran leaves his base and remax 100times faster. I just can't see terran mech being effective as it is right now, you'd have to wastly outplay or get a lucky hellion runby/drop to win.
+ with the blueflame nerf 3-3 zealots are waaaay too cost effective vs mech.
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On March 18 2012 06:42 Big J wrote:Wait wait wait... after 70 sites of Terran whine how P and Z can sit back and only have to position themselves correctly and only punish people who get greedy with supermobile units (like zerglings, mutalisks, warpins, stalkers - as meching player with banshees and hellions) and how this is so supereasy and all that stuff, a Terran wants to tell me that it is generally harder to play such a style (Mech)? To be fair, I'm staying by my opinion: both things are hard and sooner or later you have to learn both regardless of the race and style you play. Still, I am amazed by this outburst of honestness And Strike Canons were used like that before the MC vs Thorzain game by some players, that game was pretty much just the one that made it famous (foreigner beating GSL champion with Thors)
I play mech in TvT and TvZ, it's viable all the way from gold (once you learn how to open basically) to pro level.
Mech works in TvT because once you have 5+ tanks it's hard for bio to attack you head on, and you can protect yourself from drops with turrets.
Mech works in TvZ because zerg units are weak and die to tanks and again, you can protect yourself from drops with turrets.
Protoss have blink to not give a crap about turrets. They have charge to close the distance. They have immortals - a specialised anti tank unit. They have phoenixes to lift tanks and voidrays to murder thors. They have dropships that have speed upgrade. They can reinforce instantly anywhere, and they can build up a bank and throw waves of strong (unlike zerg) units at you. And they have a number of allins that make opening mech very difficult (oh you go 1-1-1 expo? protoss get greedy and it'll take EmpireHappy's banshee micro for your economy to catch up)
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On March 18 2012 06:42 Killcani wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 06:34 Big J wrote:On March 18 2012 06:27 Killcani wrote:On March 18 2012 06:21 Big J wrote:On March 18 2012 05:04 sushichef wrote:On March 18 2012 04:52 Type|NarutO wrote:
I might argue that if Terran receives buffs that make the game easier will completely fuck balance and shift it in Terrans favor. I mean I feel very sorry for lower level players and I know how frustrating TvP can be, yet you cannot buff a race based on the lower - level. Imagine how much EASIER would a buff make Terran for high-level then.. if you were already able to pull victories vs Protoss.
Not saying Protoss cannot win or Terran is imbalanced, just saying you have to be careful what to buff..
That's true, but I'd wager than 90% of the issue with TvP for casual players is 3-3 zealots + mass warpgates. Protoss just does not die then, whereas you often do because of one mistake. A simple solution would be to change shields/HP ratio on zealots: it would make chronoed armor upgrades less effective, it would make ghosts stronger, and it wouldn't affect PvZ much. Or remove thors energy bar to let terrans experiment a bit. No effect on TvZ with this change. 90% of the issues for casual players is that they try to play like pros (aggressive with low Tier compositions) but can't make it work, while they could just go Mech and roll most maxed protoss armies, because their opponents are not good enough to do all the multipronged harass and techswitches needed to deal with a meching Terran. And blizzard did remove the energy bars. The outcome was that Terrans combined Marines (which dealt with most things) with Thors (which dealt with most things; especially with the ones that dealt with marines) and got compositions that were not intended to work with the original unit setup, so they added the energy again. As P you dont have to harass a meching terran if anything the terran has to get alot of probes kill through harass with hellions or something or he will loose. That's simply not true. Of course you should play active with your banshees and hellions, but a proper Terran Mech composition beats pretty much every Protoss composition in a head on fight, which allows the Terran to turtle to 200/200, so all the harass before is pretty much only there to keep a protoss honest, not to do actual "huge" damage. The real mech problems start against people who are good with blink stalkers, who warp in all around the map while exanding, who mix in air switches and harass and who manage to delay Terrans 200/200 army. Huh? even if you manage to get 200/200 with mech which takes ALONG freaking time the protoss will just sac his 200supply when terran leaves his base and remax 100times faster. I just can't see terran mech being effective as it is right now, you'd have to wastly outplay or get a lucky hellion runby/drop to win. + with the blueflame nerf 3-3 zealots are waaaay too cost effective vs mech.
On March 18 2012 06:48 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 06:42 Big J wrote:Wait wait wait... after 70 sites of Terran whine how P and Z can sit back and only have to position themselves correctly and only punish people who get greedy with supermobile units (like zerglings, mutalisks, warpins, stalkers - as meching player with banshees and hellions) and how this is so supereasy and all that stuff, a Terran wants to tell me that it is generally harder to play such a style (Mech)? To be fair, I'm staying by my opinion: both things are hard and sooner or later you have to learn both regardless of the race and style you play. Still, I am amazed by this outburst of honestness And Strike Canons were used like that before the MC vs Thorzain game by some players, that game was pretty much just the one that made it famous (foreigner beating GSL champion with Thors) I play mech in TvT and TvZ, it's viable all the way from gold (once you learn how to open basically) to pro level. Mech works in TvT because once you have 5+ tanks it's hard for bio to attack you head on, and you can protect yourself from drops with turrets. Mech works in TvZ because zerg units are weak and die to tanks and again, you can protect yourself from drops with turrets. Protoss have blink to not give a crap about turrets. They have charge to close the distance. They have immortals - a specialised anti tank unit. They have phoenixes to lift tanks and voidrays to murder thors. They have dropships that have speed upgrade. They can reinforce instantly anywhere, and they can build up a bank and throw waves of strong (unlike zerg) units at you.
I really don't want to argue this with you, as you clearly have never tried it. But if you actually want some real opinions on Mech vP, what it's problems are (and maybe how to overcome them; at least below GM), there are several threads on Mech and Skymech vs Protoss made by Master+ players in the strategy section.
Not to mention that 3-3 zealots are a joke against kiting hellions. That one charge absolutly doesn't make up for the fact, how fast they melt to the least supplyefficient (supercostefficient) vs Zealot unit in the Mech arsenal.
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On March 18 2012 06:51 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 06:42 Killcani wrote:On March 18 2012 06:34 Big J wrote:On March 18 2012 06:27 Killcani wrote:On March 18 2012 06:21 Big J wrote:On March 18 2012 05:04 sushichef wrote:On March 18 2012 04:52 Type|NarutO wrote:
I might argue that if Terran receives buffs that make the game easier will completely fuck balance and shift it in Terrans favor. I mean I feel very sorry for lower level players and I know how frustrating TvP can be, yet you cannot buff a race based on the lower - level. Imagine how much EASIER would a buff make Terran for high-level then.. if you were already able to pull victories vs Protoss.
Not saying Protoss cannot win or Terran is imbalanced, just saying you have to be careful what to buff..
That's true, but I'd wager than 90% of the issue with TvP for casual players is 3-3 zealots + mass warpgates. Protoss just does not die then, whereas you often do because of one mistake. A simple solution would be to change shields/HP ratio on zealots: it would make chronoed armor upgrades less effective, it would make ghosts stronger, and it wouldn't affect PvZ much. Or remove thors energy bar to let terrans experiment a bit. No effect on TvZ with this change. 90% of the issues for casual players is that they try to play like pros (aggressive with low Tier compositions) but can't make it work, while they could just go Mech and roll most maxed protoss armies, because their opponents are not good enough to do all the multipronged harass and techswitches needed to deal with a meching Terran. And blizzard did remove the energy bars. The outcome was that Terrans combined Marines (which dealt with most things) with Thors (which dealt with most things; especially with the ones that dealt with marines) and got compositions that were not intended to work with the original unit setup, so they added the energy again. As P you dont have to harass a meching terran if anything the terran has to get alot of probes kill through harass with hellions or something or he will loose. That's simply not true. Of course you should play active with your banshees and hellions, but a proper Terran Mech composition beats pretty much every Protoss composition in a head on fight, which allows the Terran to turtle to 200/200, so all the harass before is pretty much only there to keep a protoss honest, not to do actual "huge" damage. The real mech problems start against people who are good with blink stalkers, who warp in all around the map while exanding, who mix in air switches and harass and who manage to delay Terrans 200/200 army. Huh? even if you manage to get 200/200 with mech which takes ALONG freaking time the protoss will just sac his 200supply when terran leaves his base and remax 100times faster. I just can't see terran mech being effective as it is right now, you'd have to wastly outplay or get a lucky hellion runby/drop to win. + with the blueflame nerf 3-3 zealots are waaaay too cost effective vs mech. Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 06:48 sushichef wrote:On March 18 2012 06:42 Big J wrote:Wait wait wait... after 70 sites of Terran whine how P and Z can sit back and only have to position themselves correctly and only punish people who get greedy with supermobile units (like zerglings, mutalisks, warpins, stalkers - as meching player with banshees and hellions) and how this is so supereasy and all that stuff, a Terran wants to tell me that it is generally harder to play such a style (Mech)? To be fair, I'm staying by my opinion: both things are hard and sooner or later you have to learn both regardless of the race and style you play. Still, I am amazed by this outburst of honestness And Strike Canons were used like that before the MC vs Thorzain game by some players, that game was pretty much just the one that made it famous (foreigner beating GSL champion with Thors) I play mech in TvT and TvZ, it's viable all the way from gold (once you learn how to open basically) to pro level. Mech works in TvT because once you have 5+ tanks it's hard for bio to attack you head on, and you can protect yourself from drops with turrets. Mech works in TvZ because zerg units are weak and die to tanks and again, you can protect yourself from drops with turrets. Protoss have blink to not give a crap about turrets. They have charge to close the distance. They have immortals - a specialised anti tank unit. They have phoenixes to lift tanks and voidrays to murder thors. They have dropships that have speed upgrade. They can reinforce instantly anywhere, and they can build up a bank and throw waves of strong (unlike zerg) units at you. I really don't want to argue this with you, as you clearly have never tried it. But if you actually want some real opinions on Mech vP, what it's problems are (and maybe how to overcome them; at least below GM), there are several threads on Mech and Skymech vs Protoss made by Master+ players in the strategy section. Not to mention that 3-3 zealots are a joke against kiting hellions. That one charge absolutly doesn't make up for the fact, how fast they melt to the least supplyefficient (supercostefficient) vs Zealot unit in the Mech arsenal.
its true 3-3 zealots die if u kite ur hellions across the map but that doesnt matter does it? cuz the zealots don't need to kill the hellions only the tanks/thors and after they're gone hellions are useless. And they dont "melt" very fast if u have a decent spread.
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On March 18 2012 06:51 Big J wrote:
I really don't want to argue this with you, as you clearly have never tried it. But if you actually want some real opinions on Mech vP, what it's problems are (and maybe how to overcome them; at least below GM), there are several threads on Mech and Skymech vs Protoss made by Master+ players in the strategy section.
Not to mention that 3-3 zealots are a joke against kiting hellions. That one charge absolutly doesn't make up for the fact, how fast they melt to the least supplyefficient (supercostefficient) vs Zealot unit in the Mech arsenal.
I actually have, many a time, and I won some of those games. I don't doubt there are people that can reliably take games doing mech TvP (like Lyyna in that mech thread) but I know from having tried it myself how difficult it is. Certainly more difficult than throwing down cannons to shut down banshees and hellions, building up a bank, and then owning your main with blink and stopping your inevitable allin with warpins and chronoed robo units.
EDIT: If you kite with hellions, chargelots will get to your tanks. And if you don't - 3-3 colossi will make quick work of your hellions (you cannot be on par in upgrades). How can you not know that if you play mech TvP? And once your tanks are gone, 20 chargelots will want a word with whatever reinforcements you can muster in 30 seconds.
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Terran is strong on 1 & 2 base play. We become weaker at 3-4 base / 12-15 minute mark.
YES, without larva / warp-in we cannot resupply as fast. The reality it unless you are ahead by a lot this means you cannot push across larger maps. It just can't work.
YES, bio is very fragile against protoss AoE. This makes aggression hard because splitting / micro must be done very fast. On defense however Bio can be pre-split. + Bunkers + Simcity makes things easier.
It seems like after 15 Min of so, Terran should just stop attacking...Drops & harass are still good, but keep your main force in a stationary defensive position with Bunkers/Turrets/PF/Etc.
Of course this gives Protoss freedom on the map - however Terran has good harass, hard to say how this would play out.
Also how do we eventually win? Maybe transition into a super-high tech 150-170 food army. Like OC->mule transition for more army supply room, then go into BCruiser, Raven, Banshee shenanigans? Or some sort of Super 10k gas death-ball?
If you could keep Protoss from getting too much advantage while running free on the map, and had a good super-army to transition into, it could work. I don't know if this is possible though.
Or spider mines
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On March 17 2012 17:49 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:There are couple of problems with terran race. Terran is just harder to play and yes this is coming from terran and I have beaten top EU players with offraces before so I know/did play other races - which makes casual players not wanting to invest more time into game than protoss or zerg. I wanted to make one thing clear, so often I see "terran got mules doesnt matter how many workers you kill". Every time something like this happends zerg or protoss sacrifice their tech in order to do so, 6g allin kills 20scvs or baneling bust kills 20 scvs but T still wins 5min after? Imagine if terran did 5 rax allin vs protoss with marines and protoss gets 3 colossus out and terran got only marines, but killed 20 probes, terran is still going to die just like terran kills zerg or protoss after losing scvs with medivac/stim or/and with tanks. Mules are NEEDED to keep up with zerg/toss early game because we dont have chrono boost or larva, after 10min you use mules for scans so people talking about mules being OP are just completely clueless about game. Are mules IMBA late game with 10 scvs and 50 orbitals? yes, is remaxing 200/200 in two warpins or zerg 200/200 in 20sec IMBA? yes. I'd always trade mules for warpin or larva late game. Making mistake as terran after 20min will cost you the game, there is no question about it 4-5 base vs 4-5 base and you mess up and lose 100 army supply and he got 150 left? you will die due to terran not being able to make units fast enough like Z and P can. This is frustrating for pros but for casual players as well and this thread isnt about GM/GSL level only its for all levels of play. TvZ requires a lot of apm from both sides, but what is problem again for lower league players is that terran is hard to micro, lets say bronze league TvZ, zerg makes 50 banelings and terran got 3-5 tanks and mass marine 1) he wont split 2) he wont split siege tanks (sieged) and all zerg needs is to a-move in order to win, because a-moving with ling and bling is a lot harder than spliting marines and doing siege in good position/on time. Players who dont want to invest time into game will rather play zerg or protoss instead terran, who wouldnt? TvP is just not balanced in late game, I talked to Slayers terrans and I will quote them "protoss 3-3 terran die" and "protoss T_T". What is the problem in TvP? Zealots have too much hp and are too cost effective units which makes them broken in late game along with warpin. One missmicro from T and you will die. Another problem is terran not having T3 units and having to fight with T1 and T2 whole game, Thors and BC's (if we count them as T3) are a joke and the ghost nerf screwed TvP even more than TvZ because you cant snipe zealots anymore which helped A LOT before. If you watch GSL you would know that every terran is allining protoss and those who dont die in hilarious fashion. All of this makes people not wanting to play terran. What us terrans want? and im pretty sure I talk for everyone who plays terran now. We dont want our race easier or boost our marines or marauders, we want viable T3 and if in order to win we need to split marines vs banelings, why does protoss needs to a-move for zealots? Why is there smart AI (or how you call it) that make them auto-surround terran bio? Make protoss have hotkey to use charge every 10sec and if they a-move zealots get stuck one behind another till you micro them just like with ranged units when you a-move the first one to get in range will shoot and those behind will run around, please do same for melee units. We want other races micro to be harder and more rewarding just like terran units are like now, just like blink stalkers or mutas are. My games this season on high GM are: 123 TvP 40.32% 106 TvZ 34.75% 76 TvT 24.91% There is no doubt more and more people keep quiting playing terran and this isnt whine post, this just just a FACT post and stats support what everyone one of us is saying. TLDR: 1) terran requires too much time invested in order to win games, 2) mules are comeback unit only if you sacrificed tech to kill scvs, 3) terran has no T3 units, 4) give other races more micro options and more micro rewarding units. extra: I will always play terran because I have self respect
Great post. Thanks for the insight. Wish Naruto had read it , including the comments from slayers. If these terrans can't go mass ghosts, then how can he think that a diamond/master terran can? Just like Beasty said, if toss is making mistake after mistake you will win, but if you do a single mistake you are dead. It's a matter of numbers, sure you'll win some TvP, but your overall winrate lategame will still be around 20%.
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On March 18 2012 06:25 biology]major wrote:
this thread is aids, a bunch of plat-diamond players arguing with pros on their thoughts on the game. Naruto is actually trying to respond with such low level players even though they pretty much ignore everything o_O
Yeah, it really shows how much merit their arguments hold. Naruto practices with ReaL, who took 4th place at the recent IEM. So clearly he is playing against a high quality protoss He explains exactly where his things most terrans go wrong against late game protoss over and over, but they just discard any advice and continue to whine about how it is impossible for them to win. It makes me wonder why this thread is allowed to exist. If I lose my next 15 games to late game zerg, can I make one about protoss being unable to win against zerg at my skill level?
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EPT
