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On February 21 2012 17:49 Murlox wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:40 Bagi wrote:On February 21 2012 17:33 VashTS wrote:On February 21 2012 17:20 Bagi wrote:
Ghosts used to be that unit for terran in the lategame, now it has to be the marine again. This has me laughing so hard! xD I know, marine imba right? Hilarious. It just gets kinda problematic when your marines deal 3 damage to ultras and get fungaled so damn easily when they try to reach broodlords. Yet its the only general purpose unit terran has in the lategame now. Maybe the answer lies in mech instead, we'll see. A mixture of Ravens, vikings, thors and marines is indeed pretty awesome (and way less micro intensive than ghosts) versus late game air Zerg.
i hear a mixture of queens, corruptors, ultralisks, banelings, roaches, broodlords, hydralisk, crackling and infestors is pretty good against raven, viking, thor and marine though.
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Zerg is easily the most cry-baby and braindead race in the game. This nerf makes no sense. Somehow people think that once zergs get broodlords that they should instantly win and this is justified.
User was warned for this post
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On February 21 2012 20:37 Luppy1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 20:35 thezanursic wrote:On February 21 2012 17:17 Fortii wrote:On February 21 2012 17:10 decaf wrote:
The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM. one unit to counter them all. exactly there is the problem. ghost is supposed to be an "anti spellcaster unit" and thats what he is with emp and snipe vs psionic. plus nuke harrass (dont underestimate it) edit: if u think tvz winrate will drop take a look at HSM-raven vs broodlord immobility. and dont talk about ultras please, they are hilarious. Does Zerg have respond to what Terran is doing? No Does Terran have to? Yes Zerg doesn't need to look out for Terrans composition lategame. But, they need to do it all game till late game. Terran early game is just a build execution with hardly any reaction needed.
that's only because of the well established metagame.
zerg have the "how to perfectly counter every terran build cost efficiently" handbook. therefore terran have to develop a new pressure build every couple of months when the old one gets figured out.
zerg never have to redevelop new strategies... they just go broodlord or ultra/infestor. there is only one page in the "how to perfectly counter broodlord or ultra/infestor cost efficiently" handbook, and it tells you to get ghosts.
the only reactionary transitioning on the path to broodlord/infestor (comically the same path in ZvP as well) is whether you can delay banelings or roach to get your faster tier2.
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Iam so happy to see that Pro Terrans have the same problems as me.Iam Platin EU and have a w/l ratio of: TvT 90/10 TvZ50/50 and against Protoss only 10/90.I try every single game to be better but this 2 base a click race is so freakin hard that the only way to beat this race is a 1-1-1 or any kind of all in.When now the Ghost nerf comes(i use him every game) my ratio against zerg will fall and fall in TvZ.
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NA Server down? Is this it?
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On February 21 2012 21:38 Uncultured wrote:
NA Server down? Is this it?
Yuppers
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On February 21 2012 21:38 Uncultured wrote:
NA Server down? Is this it?
Brace yourselves! The patch is coming.
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On February 21 2012 21:04 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 20:37 Luppy1 wrote:On February 21 2012 20:35 thezanursic wrote:On February 21 2012 17:17 Fortii wrote:On February 21 2012 17:10 decaf wrote:
The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM. one unit to counter them all. exactly there is the problem. ghost is supposed to be an "anti spellcaster unit" and thats what he is with emp and snipe vs psionic. plus nuke harrass (dont underestimate it) edit: if u think tvz winrate will drop take a look at HSM-raven vs broodlord immobility. and dont talk about ultras please, they are hilarious. Does Zerg have respond to what Terran is doing? No Does Terran have to? Yes Zerg doesn't need to look out for Terrans composition lategame. But, they need to do it all game till late game. Terran early game is just a build execution with hardly any reaction needed. that's only because of the well established metagame. zerg have the "how to perfectly counter every terran build cost efficiently" handbook. therefore terran have to develop a new pressure build every couple of months when the old one gets figured out. zerg never have to redevelop new strategies... they just go broodlord or ultra/infestor. there is only one page in the "how to perfectly counter broodlord or ultra/infestor cost efficiently" handbook, and it tells you to get ghosts. the only reactionary transitioning on the path to broodlord/infestor (comically the same path in ZvP as well) is whether you can delay banelings or roach to get your faster tier2.
Maybe if Zerg had more varied units other strats would be viable. We have fewest units of the 3 races.. Hydra gets mown down like roadkill in ZvT... so that leaves us with tier 2.. muta / infestor and when teching to 3.. broodlord / ultra. we can't tech into anything else. When you only have 4 later tech units and one unit counters 3 of them.. something needs to be fixed.
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i agree this change should be done the first time i played terran and built a ghost i looked at the stats and thought to myself if you can mass these up to a stupid number it would be very hard to deal with. I play random though so please dont call me an anti terran! 
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Why does it seem like both Zerg and Protoss get at least 1 MU where they KNOW if they can get that 200/200 army they get to steam roll their opponent?
Whereas the way things are going, Terran will be all-ining both Zerg and Protoss to not let them get to a 200/200 army.
Guys, really.... THIS IS NOT BALANCE!
Zerg have all-in builds which are available to them. So does Protoss (They have just as many, if not more all-ins then what a Terran has). But you know what, fair enough sounds normal for all races to have their different types of all-ins. But why does it feel as though Blizzard is shoving Terran into a corner right now? Soon, there will be no such thing as a Terran aiming to get a sturdy 200/200 army and having a snowballs chance of taking out the game. Do they not want people to play the race?
If so, they are doing a great job at that.
To be quite honest, in the grand scheme of things I don't give a shit what Blizzard nerfs and buffs. As long as Terran has viable options to utilise early, mid and late game. Both Zerg and Protoss have these options, why should Terran not be allowed the same?
In regards to the Pheonix buff. Really? Seems like the P v Z MU might get just as easy for Protoss players as it is currently for the P v T MU.
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On February 21 2012 21:46 Gingerninja wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 21:04 shizna wrote:On February 21 2012 20:37 Luppy1 wrote:On February 21 2012 20:35 thezanursic wrote:On February 21 2012 17:17 Fortii wrote:On February 21 2012 17:10 decaf wrote:
The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM. one unit to counter them all. exactly there is the problem. ghost is supposed to be an "anti spellcaster unit" and thats what he is with emp and snipe vs psionic. plus nuke harrass (dont underestimate it) edit: if u think tvz winrate will drop take a look at HSM-raven vs broodlord immobility. and dont talk about ultras please, they are hilarious. Does Zerg have respond to what Terran is doing? No Does Terran have to? Yes Zerg doesn't need to look out for Terrans composition lategame. But, they need to do it all game till late game. Terran early game is just a build execution with hardly any reaction needed. that's only because of the well established metagame. zerg have the "how to perfectly counter every terran build cost efficiently" handbook. therefore terran have to develop a new pressure build every couple of months when the old one gets figured out. zerg never have to redevelop new strategies... they just go broodlord or ultra/infestor. there is only one page in the "how to perfectly counter broodlord or ultra/infestor cost efficiently" handbook, and it tells you to get ghosts. the only reactionary transitioning on the path to broodlord/infestor (comically the same path in ZvP as well) is whether you can delay banelings or roach to get your faster tier2. Maybe if Zerg had more varied units other strats would be viable. We have fewest units of the 3 races.. Hydra gets mown down like roadkill in ZvT... so that leaves us with tier 2.. muta / infestor and when teching to 3.. broodlord / ultra. we can't tech into anything else. When you only have 4 later tech units and one unit counters 3 of them.. something needs to be fixed.
hmm... ling, bane, infestor / ling, bane, muta / ling, bane, roach are all decent against bionic compositions unless you're on a choke map like shakuras.
the reason zerg don't have a choice is because tier3 is too good. it's dumb for a zerg to NOT go tier3.
imo tier3 is meant to be a risk. but zerg establishes such an easy economic lead thanks to mobility and map control that tier3 is not a risk at all. this is fundamentally broken.
zerg basically rushes out tier3 tech and the appropriate counter is for terran to quickly tech to tier3 as well? that's just BS. the only way this favours terran is if zerg makes huge mistake or terran outplays the zerg and therefore deals enough damage to gimp the zerg economy.
imo after snipe nerf, if both players play perfectly like robots then zerg wins 100% of the time. that's the brutality of nerfing the only viable counter to an OP composition.
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On February 21 2012 22:31 shizna wrote:
imo tier3 is meant to be a risk. but zerg establishes such an easy economic lead thanks to mobility and map control that tier3 is not a risk at all. this is fundamentally broken.
zerg basically rushes out tier3 tech and the appropriate counter is for terran to quickly tech to tier3 as well? that's just BS. the only way this favours terran is if zerg makes huge mistake or terran outplays the zerg and therefore deals enough damage to gimp the zerg economy.
Wrong, Zerg has no siege units before t3, which means that it is damn near impossible to attack a fortified position before BL's / Ultras.
PFs? Can't really kill them before BL / Ultras.
Supply Depot wall, supported by bunkers and 2-3 siege tanks? Can't attack before t3.
Before Broodlords the longest range unit that Zerg has is the Hydra, with range 6. As we all know hydras are shit in ZvT. That leaves Roaches, range 4. If Terran or Protoss manage to secure an advantage in the early / midgame they can just go kill their opponent. If zerg gets ahead in the early / midgame the only option is to take more bases, get further ahead economically, and get t3 out before he can go kill the other guy.
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On February 21 2012 21:40 ceaRshaf wrote:Brace yourselves! The patch is coming.
I can't...I CANT .. WAIT.. ANY LONGER.
Any news on when patch coming to KR?
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On February 21 2012 22:31 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 21:46 Gingerninja wrote:On February 21 2012 21:04 shizna wrote:On February 21 2012 20:37 Luppy1 wrote:On February 21 2012 20:35 thezanursic wrote:On February 21 2012 17:17 Fortii wrote:On February 21 2012 17:10 decaf wrote:
The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM. one unit to counter them all. exactly there is the problem. ghost is supposed to be an "anti spellcaster unit" and thats what he is with emp and snipe vs psionic. plus nuke harrass (dont underestimate it) edit: if u think tvz winrate will drop take a look at HSM-raven vs broodlord immobility. and dont talk about ultras please, they are hilarious. Does Zerg have respond to what Terran is doing? No Does Terran have to? Yes Zerg doesn't need to look out for Terrans composition lategame. But, they need to do it all game till late game. Terran early game is just a build execution with hardly any reaction needed. that's only because of the well established metagame. zerg have the "how to perfectly counter every terran build cost efficiently" handbook. therefore terran have to develop a new pressure build every couple of months when the old one gets figured out. zerg never have to redevelop new strategies... they just go broodlord or ultra/infestor. there is only one page in the "how to perfectly counter broodlord or ultra/infestor cost efficiently" handbook, and it tells you to get ghosts. the only reactionary transitioning on the path to broodlord/infestor (comically the same path in ZvP as well) is whether you can delay banelings or roach to get your faster tier2. Maybe if Zerg had more varied units other strats would be viable. We have fewest units of the 3 races.. Hydra gets mown down like roadkill in ZvT... so that leaves us with tier 2.. muta / infestor and when teching to 3.. broodlord / ultra. we can't tech into anything else. When you only have 4 later tech units and one unit counters 3 of them.. something needs to be fixed. hmm... ling, bane, infestor / ling, bane, muta / ling, bane, roach are all decent against bionic compositions unless you're on a choke map like shakuras. the reason zerg don't have a choice is because tier3 is too good. it's dumb for a zerg to NOT go tier3. imo tier3 is meant to be a risk. but zerg establishes such an easy economic lead thanks to mobility and map control that tier3 is not a risk at all. this is fundamentally broken. zerg basically rushes out tier3 tech and the appropriate counter is for terran to quickly tech to tier3 as well? that's just BS. the only way this favours terran is if zerg makes huge mistake or terran outplays the zerg and therefore deals enough damage to gimp the zerg economy. imo after snipe nerf, if both players play perfectly like robots then zerg wins 100% of the time. that's the brutality of nerfing the only viable counter to an OP composition.
He (gingerninja)neglects to mention how zerglings counter most terran t3. They destroy ghosts and thors like they were nothing. How is down teching to t1 as balanced as t3 terran handling t3 zerg with ghosts?. He's mad that ghosts beat ultra/bl/infestor. But thats only if u a)Have enough energy to snipe and emp everything, usually you don't and B) Assuming you have the micro to marine split, target with tanks,AND emp/snipe to a zergs a-move.
While were on the subject, broodlords do the same amount of t3-t3 damage and then some. They beat every t3 terran unit, including ghosts if they lack enough energy (which the will now for sure) to snipe it to death. And dont say bc's because all you have to do is wait to convert ur corrupters into bl's after the corruptors decimate a bc army.
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On February 21 2012 22:49 Klystron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 22:31 shizna wrote:
imo tier3 is meant to be a risk. but zerg establishes such an easy economic lead thanks to mobility and map control that tier3 is not a risk at all. this is fundamentally broken.
zerg basically rushes out tier3 tech and the appropriate counter is for terran to quickly tech to tier3 as well? that's just BS. the only way this favours terran is if zerg makes huge mistake or terran outplays the zerg and therefore deals enough damage to gimp the zerg economy.
Wrong, Zerg has no siege units before t3, which means that it is damn near impossible to attack a fortified position before BL's / Ultras. PFs? Can't really kill them before BL / Ultras. Supply Depot wall, supported by bunkers and 2-3 siege tanks? Can't attack before t3. Before Broodlords the longest range unit that Zerg has is the Hydra, with range 6. As we all know hydras are shit in ZvT. That leaves Roaches, range 4. If Terran or Protoss manage to secure an advantage in the early / midgame they can just go kill their opponent. If zerg gets ahead in the early / midgame the only option is to take more bases, get further ahead economically, and get t3 out before he can go kill the other guy.
Must say... infestors are far more versatile than what you seem to have noticed.
Just give this a try, burrow infestors, roaches or wahtever, you'll be surprised how many T players dont have detection until they know burrow is on the field given how heavily we rely on Scans because we prefer medivac proudction over producing a single raven, and turrets usually are placed to fend off mutas.
You are facing a turtle terran? use the energy from infestors and launch infested marines on his defenses, force him to either unsiege or deal some heavy friendly fire. Lots of high level Z players use infeted terrans as a buffer when pushing with no tier 3 units into a sige line.
I think you are wrong. what leenock showed most of the Z players was that he could set up an economy and go and kill any other player with simple strats like baneling bust. As a Terran player i know this, if i dont wall off all of my bases im asking to get overrunned by zerlings or beign forced to stay on my base while the Z player secures an advantage.
Tier 3 from Z is by far the best out there. You might notice this by watching how T and P deal with them either mass ghost with snipe and emp, or some sort of archontoilet thing, everything as close to imba as it gets.
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On February 21 2012 20:47 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:49 Murlox wrote:On February 21 2012 17:40 Bagi wrote:On February 21 2012 17:33 VashTS wrote:On February 21 2012 17:20 Bagi wrote:
Ghosts used to be that unit for terran in the lategame, now it has to be the marine again. This has me laughing so hard! xD I know, marine imba right? Hilarious. It just gets kinda problematic when your marines deal 3 damage to ultras and get fungaled so damn easily when they try to reach broodlords. Yet its the only general purpose unit terran has in the lategame now. Maybe the answer lies in mech instead, we'll see. A mixture of Ravens, vikings, thors and marines is indeed pretty awesome (and way less micro intensive than ghosts) versus late game air Zerg. i hear a mixture of queens, corruptors, ultralisks, banelings, roaches, broodlords, hydralisk, crackling and infestors is pretty good against raven, viking, thor and marine though.
Lol of course a mix of every zerg unit (seriously you only left out the muta) is good against a terran composition of 4 different units.
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On February 21 2012 22:49 Klystron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 22:31 shizna wrote:
imo tier3 is meant to be a risk. but zerg establishes such an easy economic lead thanks to mobility and map control that tier3 is not a risk at all. this is fundamentally broken.
zerg basically rushes out tier3 tech and the appropriate counter is for terran to quickly tech to tier3 as well? that's just BS. the only way this favours terran is if zerg makes huge mistake or terran outplays the zerg and therefore deals enough damage to gimp the zerg economy.
Wrong, Zerg has no siege units before t3, which means that it is damn near impossible to attack a fortified position before BL's / Ultras. PFs? Can't really kill them before BL / Ultras. Supply Depot wall, supported by bunkers and 2-3 siege tanks? Can't attack before t3. Before Broodlords the longest range unit that Zerg has is the Hydra, with range 6. As we all know hydras are shit in ZvT. That leaves Roaches, range 4. If Terran or Protoss manage to secure an advantage in the early / midgame they can just go kill their opponent. If zerg gets ahead in the early / midgame the only option is to take more bases, get further ahead economically, and get t3 out before he can go kill the other guy.
1. why do you attack a fortified position? don't let him get a fortified position that chokes you out and it's gravy.
2. don't let the terran get PF up... if you delay his 3rd long enough he has to turn that idle command centre into an orbital. or use your economic lead to pull his army out of position and nuke it down with banelings.
3. why do you need to attack before t3? think about it for a second. what do you hope to achieve by attacking a terran's siege line? "i have an extra base and therefore want an a-move win!"
a concept that almost no zerg seems to understand is that you don't need to directly attack when you're up on bases. maybe your tier3 is so ez that you expect to just a-move and win... i don't know.
what the hell is the point in attacking a fortified position when you have 5-6 bases and the terran is stuck on his 3-4 fortified bases? use the economic lead to spam nydus or drop instead of suiciding all units into the dumb choke with PF and 2344 tanks.
zerg can easily burrow at 3rd to delay. harrass terran main to delay. threaten counter attack to delay. if terran is turtling, massing ghosts and waiting for max upgrades, then make half a dozen nydus canals and simultaneous nydus worms.
but no, it's not needed because ultra/brood are braindead a-move and accomplish the same for zilch micro.
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Whoa... What's with all the balance whine and "your race is easier than mine" arguments. Just stop whining and play the damn game. It's so frustrating to just see everyone argue over what race is "easiest to play". You picked your race because you found it the fun race to play. So what changed? If you find it fun, you'll keep playing it. If you don't. You switch to a race that is fun for you, or you quit the game.
Make a choice, because all this balance whine gets REALLY tiring. Grow up.
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On February 21 2012 21:52 fiveohfive wrote:
Why does it seem like both Zerg and Protoss get at least 1 MU where they KNOW if they can get that 200/200 army they get to steam roll their opponent?
Whereas the way things are going, Terran will be all-ining both Zerg and Protoss to not let them get to a 200/200 army.
Guys, really.... THIS IS NOT BALANCE!
Zerg have all-in builds which are available to them. So does Protoss (They have just as many, if not more all-ins then what a Terran has). But you know what, fair enough sounds normal for all races to have their different types of all-ins. But why does it feel as though Blizzard is shoving Terran into a corner right now? Soon, there will be no such thing as a Terran aiming to get a sturdy 200/200 army and having a snowballs chance of taking out the game. Do they not want people to play the race?
If so, they are doing a great job at that.
To be quite honest, in the grand scheme of things I don't give a shit what Blizzard nerfs and buffs. As long as Terran has viable options to utilise early, mid and late game. Both Zerg and Protoss have these options, why should Terran not be allowed the same?
In regards to the Pheonix buff. Really? Seems like the P v Z MU might get just as easy for Protoss players as it is currently for the P v T MU.
Lol you act like blizz removed ghosts, vikings, ravens, thors, and the multitude of other amazing units terran has.
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Still not patching??
I WANT TO SEE PATCH NOTES!
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EPT
