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On February 21 2012 17:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:17 Fortii wrote:On February 21 2012 17:10 decaf wrote:
The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM. one unit to counter them all. exactly there is the problem. ghost is supposed to be an "anti spellcaster unit" and thats what he is with emp and snipe vs psionic. plus nuke harrass (dont underestimate it) edit: if u think tvz winrate will drop take a look at HSM-raven vs broodlord immobility. and dont talk about ultras please, they are hilarious. The infestor counters everything terran has..bio, air, mech you name it and it does AOE damage .....AND you can't even run away while your units are dying. Talk about a bullshit spell. I can't believe zerg players have the nerve to complain about snipe when the have the most OP spellcaster in the game.
yeah, fungal pawns mass thors so hard, you are right.
terran has emp and snipe vs spellcaster, complains about spellcaster being op.
you cant explain that.
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On February 21 2012 17:33 VashTS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:20 Bagi wrote:
Ghosts used to be that unit for terran in the lategame, now it has to be the marine again. This has me laughing so hard! xD
I know, marine imba right? Hilarious.
It just gets kinda problematic when your marines deal 3 damage to ultras and get fungaled so damn easily when they try to reach broodlords. Yet its the only general purpose unit terran has in the lategame now. Maybe the answer lies in mech instead, we'll see.
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On February 21 2012 17:38 Fortii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:On February 21 2012 17:17 Fortii wrote:On February 21 2012 17:10 decaf wrote:
The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM. one unit to counter them all. exactly there is the problem. ghost is supposed to be an "anti spellcaster unit" and thats what he is with emp and snipe vs psionic. plus nuke harrass (dont underestimate it) edit: if u think tvz winrate will drop take a look at HSM-raven vs broodlord immobility. and dont talk about ultras please, they are hilarious. The infestor counters everything terran has..bio, air, mech you name it and it does AOE damage .....AND you can't even run away while your units are dying. Talk about a bullshit spell. I can't believe zerg players have the nerve to complain about snipe when the have the most OP spellcaster in the game. yeah, fungal pawns mass thors so hard, you are right. terran has emp and snipe vs spellcaster, complains about spellcaster being op. you cant explain that.
No they'll just NP the thors and finish off the rest with broodlords. That's the beauty of infestors, they do it all I tell ya.
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im sad you ignored most of my post. good day, sir.
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On February 21 2012 17:40 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:33 VashTS wrote:On February 21 2012 17:20 Bagi wrote:
Ghosts used to be that unit for terran in the lategame, now it has to be the marine again. This has me laughing so hard! xD I know, marine imba right? Hilarious. It just gets kinda problematic when your marines deal 3 damage to ultras and get fungaled so damn easily when they try to reach broodlords. Yet its the only general purpose unit terran has in the lategame now. Maybe the answer lies in mech instead, we'll see.
A mixture of Ravens, vikings, thors and marines is indeed pretty awesome (and way less micro intensive than ghosts) versus late game air Zerg.
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On February 21 2012 16:51 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 16:45 thezanursic wrote:On February 21 2012 15:52 IdrA wrote:On February 21 2012 15:38 nvrs wrote:On February 21 2012 14:27 IdrA wrote:On February 21 2012 14:02 tokicheese wrote:On February 21 2012 13:31 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 21 2012 13:14 Arkless wrote:On February 21 2012 11:55 kofman wrote:
Fuck blizzard. They don't give a shit about us Terrans, nerfing us every single chance they get. Every single successive season, Terran has been getting the short end of the stick, whether it is with bigger, Zerg-favored maps or stupid nerfs. Seriously, I'm done with this shit. Yea, I'm raging cause i'm on a huge losing streak, but still, fuck you blizzard.
User was warned for this post Even though he was warned, I agree with him fully. Ghosts and tanks have been molested into the ground. And the matchup is not only not T favored, but OP for zerg. Infestor muta broodlord????? none of it gets touched yet we get a snipe nerf? Cmon........Starting to think this has to do with a hots release date coming soon and wanting to have ppl jump on the zerg bandwagon coz this is rediculous. If you can't see the problem with muta/bl/infestor, yet you think snipe is a problem???? This just doesn't make sense in my brain. When I first saw the patch preview on the side bar I was like " Yes!!! Finally they are gonna do something about this bullshit muta/infestor/bl combo. Only to open the link and see mule and snipe nerf, at that moment my brain just turned off. there could be a coincidence between terran nerfs and terran having higher winrates on the highest level of play? i know it normalized in the last few months but most nerfs were needed. Stats show terran only winning 30% of their games late game TvZ at some tourney and then they nerf our late game option with no PTR? Really mind boggling Add onto this the new changes in HOTS Ultra Death charge makes that tech switch even more painful... That grab unit spell will just destroy terran with pulling tanks... Idk if terran doesnt get some love soon im switching to zerg with HOTS. Zero ladder games as Zerg and it is just as strong as my terran with 3000+ 1v1 games played all in masters top 20... I did love Terran played it all beta and yes it needed some nerfs but blizz is just neutering terran same reason that every patch blizzards nerfed terran and then terran winrates shot right back up to where they were before after a couple weeks. terran players keep finding new crutches that allow them to win without being all that good. mid game timings are so powerful and easy to win with up to a certain level that you have a ton of terrans who just 2 base allin every game and win the majority, but if they get past that they have no idea what to do and try to fight broodlord infestor with marine tank. I see, so its a loose loose situation for Terran eh Greg? But i guess you are trolling as always so there is no point in arguing, i mean its pretty obvious that Terran are having a really hard time vs P cause their late game is crap (comperatively) and we all know it and Protosses have become so much better at defending early pushes. Also TvZ lategame was looking balanced with ghosts, at least that's what the past few months tournament results were telling but lets ignore all these, Terran is OP! I am betting though that at some point they will have to do something about Terran's lategame hopefulness we were talking about tvz. tvp late game does seem very protoss favored and t might need help in that matchup. but terran incompetence accounts for that late game tvz win %. watch good terrans, ones who have games that end up in the late game without failing a timing attack, who know how to defend properly, who abuse broodlord infestor mobility with mass drops, who use nukes to harass and prevent big attacks, who scan z and make proper counter unit compositions. top tier t's have no problem going toe to toe with top tier z's late game, if the zergs manage to survive to that point. I agree, but nerfing snipe is still retarded. So is watching ultra/bl die in about 5 seconds.
so is watching 10 marines die to two banelings. i guess we could do this all day long.
its not like every terran has 10 ghost just handy to snipe an entrire broodlord fleet and the micro to even pull it off.
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Any patch notes anywhere? I would like to see what else they're bringing with 1.4.3
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On February 21 2012 17:49 Murlox wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:40 Bagi wrote:On February 21 2012 17:33 VashTS wrote:On February 21 2012 17:20 Bagi wrote:
Ghosts used to be that unit for terran in the lategame, now it has to be the marine again. This has me laughing so hard! xD I know, marine imba right? Hilarious. It just gets kinda problematic when your marines deal 3 damage to ultras and get fungaled so damn easily when they try to reach broodlords. Yet its the only general purpose unit terran has in the lategame now. Maybe the answer lies in mech instead, we'll see. A mixture of Ravens, vikings, thors and marines is indeed pretty awesome (and way less micro intensive than ghosts) versus late game air Zerg.
I would still rather go ghosts instead of ravens, at least if he has a lot of infestors. That unit comp owns pure air but can't really deal with good fungals. Thors are definitely something we might see more of, simply because they trade quite well with ultras and are useful in air battles too.
I'm not sure what will come out of this, but its interesting times for terrans.
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Personally, I don't think we'll see the proliferation of Ravens like some zergs suggest. It's just too time and cost inefficient, especially as a transition. What we are going to see are ghosts transitioning sniping bl/ultra to mainly infestors and then afterwards, spend their remaining energy on bl/ultra.
I, again, still cannot understand why Blizz would want to nerf Terran's weakest stage of the game and not their strongest.
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The Terran high win rates came from allins or timing attacks early to mid game . Late game win rates have been abysmal for ages .
So instead of balancing out early-mid game with nerfs and late game with buffs , blizzard is dealing with this not as a balancer but as a developer imo .
As far as i understood they want terran designed for constant agression and timing pushes . Otherwise the whole balancing process of the race would be different .
On a side note , Vikings are not good units . They have good range and frontloaded damage so they are good at sort of hit and runs against slow air , but they have ZERO staying power . Same thing with the raven, ZERO staying power coupled with limited utility . This is why skyterran will not be a good transition .
Terran may win with some gimmicky strategies here and there , but overall i feel as if with each passing patch Terran is losing solid macro play options .
my 2c
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On February 21 2012 18:07 LRObot wrote:
Personally, I don't think we'll see the proliferation of Ravens like some zergs suggest. It's just too time and cost inefficient, especially as a transition. What we are going to see are ghosts transitioning sniping bl/ultra to mainly infestors and then afterwards, spend their remaining energy on bl/ultra.
I, again, still cannot understand why Blizz would want to nerf Terran's weakest stage of the game and not their strongest.
I doubt terrans would start to sink their APM into sniping bl/ultras to spend ghosts remaining energy and I don't think most people would make more than 4 ghost for sniping/EMP infestors either, since you are going to need much more supply in other units that could actually do something against zerg T3 units.
I do believe blizzard is just being retards with these changes. This is not even the worst change they have done (anyone remember when they buffed mothership instead of carriers? lol).
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On February 21 2012 17:46 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:38 Fortii wrote:On February 21 2012 17:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:On February 21 2012 17:17 Fortii wrote:On February 21 2012 17:10 decaf wrote:
The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM. one unit to counter them all. exactly there is the problem. ghost is supposed to be an "anti spellcaster unit" and thats what he is with emp and snipe vs psionic. plus nuke harrass (dont underestimate it) edit: if u think tvz winrate will drop take a look at HSM-raven vs broodlord immobility. and dont talk about ultras please, they are hilarious. The infestor counters everything terran has..bio, air, mech you name it and it does AOE damage .....AND you can't even run away while your units are dying. Talk about a bullshit spell. I can't believe zerg players have the nerve to complain about snipe when the have the most OP spellcaster in the game. yeah, fungal pawns mass thors so hard, you are right. terran has emp and snipe vs spellcaster, complains about spellcaster being op. you cant explain that. No they'll just NP the thors and finish off the rest with broodlords. That's the beauty of infestors, they do it all I tell ya.
Dude you DO know that Snipe outranges NP by 3 or 4 range? If you cannot save your thors from a NP with such a range advantage, then you got outplayed and deserve to lose. Ghost counters infestors pretty strongly
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Ghosts are too expensive to be an anti caster unit only . TBH they are only that expensive because they start off with EMP . If say EMP was an upgrade then you can make ghosts cheaper niche anti caster all you want.... hmmm, i maybe onto something here 
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With the T1-3 marine terrans should be fine throughout the entire game. It's such an incredible versatile unit at low costs. I'm a terran player myself btw 
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On February 21 2012 17:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:
The infestor counters everything terran has..bio, air, mech you name it and it does AOE damage .....AND you can't even run away while your units are dying. Talk about a bullshit spell. I can't believe zerg players have the nerve to complain about snipe when the have the most OP spellcaster in the game.
Infestors were nerfed, remember? Neural parasite lost 3 range and fungal grow damage was reduced by 25%. At the time, this very forum was filled with zerg complaining that infestors were now useless, and it was terrible because it was the only cost-effective unit in the zerg army, and the only light that allowed them to see in the darkness of the protoss deathball was flickering away, and wtf was Blizzard thinking.
Turns out it was perfectly fine.
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u call making NP totally useless "perfectly fine"?
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On February 21 2012 17:17 Fortii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:10 decaf wrote:
The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM. one unit to counter them all. exactly there is the problem. ghost is supposed to be an "anti spellcaster unit" and thats what he is with emp and snipe vs psionic. plus nuke harrass (dont underestimate it) edit: if u think tvz winrate will drop take a look at HSM-raven vs broodlord immobility. and dont talk about ultras please, they are hilarious.
Does Zerg have respond to what Terran is doing?
No
Does Terran have to?
Yes
Zerg doesn't need to look out for Terrans composition lategame.
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On February 21 2012 20:35 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:17 Fortii wrote:On February 21 2012 17:10 decaf wrote:
The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM. one unit to counter them all. exactly there is the problem. ghost is supposed to be an "anti spellcaster unit" and thats what he is with emp and snipe vs psionic. plus nuke harrass (dont underestimate it) edit: if u think tvz winrate will drop take a look at HSM-raven vs broodlord immobility. and dont talk about ultras please, they are hilarious. Does Zerg have respond to what Terran is doing? No Does Terran have to? Yes Zerg doesn't need to look out for Terrans composition lategame.
But, they need to do it all game till late game. Terran early game is just a build execution with hardly any reaction needed.
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yeah....
don't emp and snipe overlap? why make snipe EXCLUSIVELY counter like 4 units and suck ass against everything else, and lol at people saying ultras aren't real units..it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that they fucking rape when the terran has 50 supply tied up in useless units after a fight that i barely win anyways...
ravens? heat seeking missile? LOL stop trolling please..so they shoot off their abysmally terribly 125 energy feather pillows and then....?????? float around cheerleading from their windows? throwing a turret down that does absolutely nothing to tier 3 zerg? using PDD that doesnt affect broodlings anymore? detecting invisible zerglings?
even zergs overwhelmingly agree that the matchup goes something like this; survive gimmicky harass by terran, make drones tech, survive one/two base midgame push/all in, make it to broodlord/infestor and laugh as the terran just slowly dies. then MAYBE the terran gets out enough viking to kill corroputer and brood while getting chain fungaled and microing against a fucking 1a zergball, and they just make ling/bling/ultra and i have all my supply in like 1-0/2-0 vikings..and now there is no unit i can work torward just like zerg work torward their tier 3; terrans tier 3, since you can get it so quickly, can't be buffed! or maybe thor/BC all in with repair becomes too strong, but ghost wasn't suppose you could do like that, one base ghost all ins would just be stupid and bad against standard play, and cannot easily be abused in this manner, but they don't understand...
for all the zergs; you always said well if the terran lets zerg take the entire map and get out their comp brood/infestor/corrupter then they deserve to lose..ok..if you let the terran mass 40 ghost (that are STILL just a decent fungal and a move away from dying) you deserve to lose?
all races should be equally difficult to play, zerg is so derp man
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that actually made me laugh, tank you
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EPT
