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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
PDD also renders Corruptors completely useless, which would actually let Vikings defend themselves against the Corruptors, letting you combat the Broodlords. Then there's the thing that HSM one-shots Infestors and Infestors are too slow to run from one when it's launched. However as we all know and have heard multiple times, Ravens suck and no Terran player should ever make them. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Fun fun... | ||
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
On February 21 2012 23:46 Bagi wrote: So patch is coming, and we don't even know how much the phoenix upgrade costs? Fun fun... Actually blizzard only released "planned most major changes". And sayd that they are changing them if the feel like community is against them enough. We dont know anything. | ||
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Turnus
United States86 Posts
On February 21 2012 23:44 Shikyo wrote: Hate to say this but Ravens are actually pretty good against Broodlords. Most Zergs don't split them(As they don't split them even in ZvP and die to Vacuum, why would they split in ZvT?) so the HSM's should be able to deal some decent damage. Autoturrets also last forever and basically act like free bunkers with a marine inside them. PDD also renders Corruptors completely useless, which would actually let Vikings defend themselves against the Corruptors, letting you combat the Broodlords. Then there's the thing that HSM one-shots Infestors and Infestors are too slow to run from one when it's launched. However as we all know and have heard multiple times, Ravens suck and no Terran player should ever make them. Every race at some point in this game's development finds itself forced to experiment. All the races under-utilize units or spells that may or may not be extremely useful in certain situations. As a Protoss player, I can assuredly tell you Ravens are scary. HSM against broods? Sounds good to me. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On February 21 2012 23:52 Turnus wrote: Every race at some point in this game's development finds itself forced to experiment. All the races under-utilize units or spells that may or may not be extremely useful in certain situations. As a Protoss player, I can assuredly tell you Ravens are scary. HSM against broods? Sounds good to me. Remember when blizzard wanted to make zerg experiment infestor more ? They buffed them so people use them. I don't like the other way to dit it, aka : nerf everything else than the thing you want players to use. =( | ||
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joeschmo
United States167 Posts
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
On February 21 2012 23:54 joeschmo wrote: If Ravens become standard, we're certain Brood Lords will be seperated or "split" to mitigate damage taken. And when they're spread it's alot easier to pick them off with vikings, since your infestors can't cover everything. It's just a matter of good positioning from both players, and that's how it should be. Unit and army control is a skill. | ||
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CyDe
United States1010 Posts
On February 21 2012 23:26 shizna wrote: 1. why do you attack a fortified position? don't let him get a fortified position that chokes you out and it's gravy. 2. don't let the terran get PF up... if you delay his 3rd long enough he has to turn that idle command centre into an orbital. or use your economic lead to pull his army out of position and nuke it down with banelings. 3. why do you need to attack before t3? think about it for a second. what do you hope to achieve by attacking a terran's siege line? "i have an extra base and therefore want an a-move win!" a concept that almost no zerg seems to understand is that you don't need to directly attack when you're up on bases. maybe your tier3 is so ez that you expect to just a-move and win... i don't know. what the hell is the point in attacking a fortified position when you have 5-6 bases and the terran is stuck on his 3-4 fortified bases? use the economic lead to spam nydus or drop instead of suiciding all units into the dumb choke with PF and 2344 tanks. zerg can easily burrow at 3rd to delay. harrass terran main to delay. threaten counter attack to delay. if terran is turtling, massing ghosts and waiting for max upgrades, then make half a dozen nydus canals and simultaneous nydus worms. but no, it's not needed because ultra/brood are braindead a-move and accomplish the same for zilch micro. You know, this is actually an interesting point. Now that you point it out, I've realized that virtually all T3 is very lacking in micro intensity. Broodlords/ Battlecruisers/ Carriers are just too damn slow to do any really impressive micro; all you really have to do with those is predict which one is about to die and move it back. Collusus are stutter-step-able, I guess, and Thors have to be focused depending on whether you want to attack air or ground, and ultras are the ultimate a-move unit (part of the reason their skill ceiling sucks and they, in turn, suck), but really, in a huge battle, who the hell is microing the T3? It's always the lower tier units being microed against the tier three. I guess what my point is, the counters to T3 always required micro. Always. And by nerfing the ghost into oblivion, the skill... ground is raised. If you want to beat Zerg T3 as terran, you must micro against the T3 more than before, and then kill the entire army. Which is a much bigger nerf than it would originally appear. I mean, really what I think should happen is ALL T3 units should be rethought to raise skill ceiling. It would make viable counters to them dependent on both players, not just on the specific tech one player decides to choose. Then again, I am a lowly gold player, what would I know?  | ||
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Liight
Iceland103 Posts
Everyone shocked. Why... ? its the most common thing in the universe. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On February 21 2012 23:59 CyDe wrote: You know, this is actually an interesting point. Now that you point it out, I've realized that virtually all T3 is very lacking in micro intensity. Broodlords/ Battlecruisers/ Carriers are just too damn slow to do any really impressive micro; all you really have to do with those is predict which one is about to die and move it back. Collusus are stutter-step-able, I guess, and Thors have to be focused depending on whether you want to attack air or ground, and ultras are the ultimate a-move unit (part of the reason their skill ceiling sucks and they, in turn, suck), but really, in a huge battle, who the hell is microing the T3? It's always the lower tier units being microed against the tier three. I guess what my point is, the counters to T3 always required micro. Always. And by nerfing the ghost into oblivion, the skill... ground is raised. If you want to beat Zerg T3 as terran, you must micro against the T3 more than before, and then kill the entire army. Which is a much bigger nerf than it would originally appear. I mean, really what I think should happen is ALL T3 units should be rethought to raise skill ceiling. It would make viable counters to them dependent on both players, not just on the specific tech one player decides to choose. Then again, I am a lowly gold player, what would I know? Colossus can't really stutter step. If you move them before the beam animation finishes, it doesn't deal damage. So there's like a few milliseconds between beams when they can move and not lose damage. Carriers used to have attack-while retreating micro, but that's gone too now. Most of the micro you see today is not necessarily micro *of* the power units, but micro of support units like sentries and infestors to set up the power units. I don't necessarily think that's bad design though. | ||
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HuKPOWA
United States1604 Posts
*SARCASM* | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
On February 21 2012 23:44 Shikyo wrote: Hate to say this but Ravens are actually pretty good against Broodlords. Most Zergs don't split them(As they don't split them even in ZvP and die to Vacuum, why would they split in ZvT?) so the HSM's should be able to deal some decent damage. Autoturrets also last forever and basically act like free bunkers with a marine inside them. PDD also renders Corruptors completely useless, which would actually let Vikings defend themselves against the Corruptors, letting you combat the Broodlords. Then there's the thing that HSM one-shots Infestors and Infestors are too slow to run from one when it's launched. However as we all know and have heard multiple times, Ravens suck and no Terran player should ever make them. point about PDD is fair enough... but HSM is 6 range versus 9 range fungal... plus infestors on creep run the same speed as HSM. ergo if you're getting hit by HSM then you're failing. also - what happens when you have ravens and zerg switches to ultralisk? that's a GG. vikings and ghosts are nowhere near as expensive and are far more timely than ravens. when a ghost (40 seconds to make) pops out you can immediately deal 45 x 3 damage. when a raven (60 seconds to make) pops out you can't even drop a PDD for 60 seconds yet... and it takes 2 minutes to be ready for a single 100 damage inferior range seeker missile. in TvZ raven sucks compared to ghosts... that's an inarguable fact. now.... if HSM was 75 energy so raven could be built and instantly have HSM ready - then it would be good out of the blocks. but the implication that terran can make now-ravens specifically to counter a broodlord/infestor army is retarded. | ||
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CyDe
United States1010 Posts
On February 22 2012 00:09 Treehead wrote: Colossus can't really stutter step. If you move them before the beam animation finishes, it doesn't deal damage. So there's like a few milliseconds between beams when they can move and not lose damage. Carriers used to have attack-while retreating micro, but that's gone too now. Most of the micro you see today is not necessarily micro *of* the power units, but micro of support units like sentries and infestors to set up the power units. I don't necessarily think that's bad design though. Yeah that is what I am saying. T3 is rarely microed. I mean, it works alright, I guess, but wouldn't it be so much more interesting to see intense late game micro with Battlecruisers? It would be so impressive if done properly, and could make StarCraft 2 comparable to StarCraft 1 in terms in viewing intensity. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43734 Posts
Sigh. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Now Protoss players have figured out things that work against the current terran and zerg metagame. Suddenly, TvPs end up in lategame situations that Ts have never seen before because their MMM was always strong enough to just 1a through at some point in the early/midgame. I say the matchups are gonna become a lot more even now. It's not like protoss are playing perfectly well engineered games either, they're cutting corners to get advantages (--> Parting's Nexus - Gate - Core - Nexus) because the straight up PvT of the past is a lost matchup for protoss. PvZ might be toss favored atm, but that's solely because of the archon toilet imo. Then again, if it didn't exist, there'd be no stopping a late game zerg army. I think lategame PvZ might need some work but overall I feel like once players get used to the fresh metagame, things will be a lot more balanced than ever before. | ||
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LRObot
United States153 Posts
On February 21 2012 19:28 Mehukannu wrote: I doubt terrans would start to sink their APM into sniping bl/ultras to spend ghosts remaining energy and I don't think most people would make more than 4 ghost for sniping/EMP infestors either, since you are going to need much more supply in other units that could actually do something against zerg T3 units. They'll make less ghosts, but their first priority is Infestor hunting. If and when that is successful, they spend whatever leftover snipes as additional DPS for brood/ultra. Those additional units at the immediate moment will probably be vikings. I just can't see T making more than 2-3 ravens when encountering that stage of the game. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On February 22 2012 00:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: Really TvP has been such a one sided onslaught for such a long time that it wasn't even funny anymore. No terran had to practice TvP because they almost couldn't lose the MU unless they screwed up super hard, especially in GSL. Now Protoss players have figured out things that work against the current terran and zerg metagame. Suddenly, TvPs end up in lategame situations that Ts have never seen before because their MMM was always strong enough to just 1a through at some point in the early/midgame. I say the matchups are gonna become a lot more even now. It's not like protoss are playing perfectly well engineered games either, they're cutting corners to get advantages (--> Parting's Nexus - Gate - Core - Nexus) because the straight up PvT of the past is a lost matchup for protoss. PvZ might be toss favored atm, but that's solely because of the archon toilet imo. Then again, if it didn't exist, there'd be no stopping a late game zerg army. I think lategame PvZ might need some work but overall I feel like once players get used to the fresh metagame, things will be a lot more balanced than ever before. Wasn't Protoss figuring the game out as much as it was patches. Warp prisms got buffed and most importantly ghosts got nerfed. EMP radius decrease and taking out 100 energy instead of all energy on spellcaster units is a pretty significant nerf. | ||
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CyDe
United States1010 Posts
On February 22 2012 00:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: Really TvP has been such a one sided onslaught for such a long time that it wasn't even funny anymore. No terran had to practice TvP because they almost couldn't lose the MU unless they screwed up super hard, especially in GSL. Now Protoss players have figured out things that work against the current terran and zerg metagame. Suddenly, TvPs end up in lategame situations that Ts have never seen before because their MMM was always strong enough to just 1a through at some point in the early/midgame. I say the matchups are gonna become a lot more even now. It's not like protoss are playing perfectly well engineered games either, they're cutting corners to get advantages (--> Parting's Nexus - Gate - Core - Nexus) because the straight up PvT of the past is a lost matchup for protoss. PvZ might be toss favored atm, but that's solely because of the archon toilet imo. Then again, if it didn't exist, there'd be no stopping a late game zerg army. I think lategame PvZ might need some work but overall I feel like once players get used to the fresh metagame, things will be a lot more balanced than ever before. What. I hope you just completely mistyped that entire paragraph. Come on, man. PvT has always been terran favored? Always? If I recall correctly, the four gate was pretty freaking ridiculous for quite a while there, and as soon collosodes are out, this precious MMM you speak of is completely nullified. Then it is a situation of whether or not the Protoss screws up, not the other way round. Protoss has a much easier time getting into an intense macro game, especially if chronoboost is used effectively. I will admit there are several very overpowered timing attacks for terran to hit protoss with, which I abuse with glee, but mid late game the "favorage" shifts quickly to the Protoss side. Oh, and I don't play Zerg, but to say that the ONLY reason that PvZ is Protoss favored is because of the archon toilet is simply ignorant. Seriously. | ||
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Afterstar
67 Posts
Everytime there are significant unit changes,there is PTR to test things,so what gives this time? | ||
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