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Patch 1.4.3 21-27 February - Page 30

Forum Index > SC2 General
1362 CommentsPost a Reply
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Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
February 21 2012 14:44 GMT
#581
Hate to say this but Ravens are actually pretty good against Broodlords. Most Zergs don't split them(As they don't split them even in ZvP and die to Vacuum, why would they split in ZvT?) so the HSM's should be able to deal some decent damage. Autoturrets also last forever and basically act like free bunkers with a marine inside them.

PDD also renders Corruptors completely useless, which would actually let Vikings defend themselves against the Corruptors, letting you combat the Broodlords. Then there's the thing that HSM one-shots Infestors and Infestors are too slow to run from one when it's launched.


However as we all know and have heard multiple times, Ravens suck and no Terran player should ever make them.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
February 21 2012 14:46 GMT
#582
So patch is coming, and we don't even know how much the phoenix upgrade costs?

Fun fun...
Sea_Food
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Finland1612 Posts
February 21 2012 14:49 GMT
#583
On February 21 2012 23:46 Bagi wrote:
So patch is coming, and we don't even know how much the phoenix upgrade costs?

Fun fun...


Actually blizzard only released "planned most major changes". And sayd that they are changing them if the feel like community is against them enough.

We dont know anything.
Turnus
Profile Joined June 2007
United States86 Posts
February 21 2012 14:52 GMT
#584
On February 21 2012 23:44 Shikyo wrote:
Hate to say this but Ravens are actually pretty good against Broodlords. Most Zergs don't split them(As they don't split them even in ZvP and die to Vacuum, why would they split in ZvT?) so the HSM's should be able to deal some decent damage. Autoturrets also last forever and basically act like free bunkers with a marine inside them.

PDD also renders Corruptors completely useless, which would actually let Vikings defend themselves against the Corruptors, letting you combat the Broodlords. Then there's the thing that HSM one-shots Infestors and Infestors are too slow to run from one when it's launched.


However as we all know and have heard multiple times, Ravens suck and no Terran player should ever make them.


Every race at some point in this game's development finds itself forced to experiment. All the races under-utilize units or spells that may or may not be extremely useful in certain situations. As a Protoss player, I can assuredly tell you Ravens are scary. HSM against broods? Sounds good to me.
cui dono lepidum novum libellum
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
February 21 2012 14:53 GMT
#585
On February 21 2012 23:52 Turnus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 23:44 Shikyo wrote:
Hate to say this but Ravens are actually pretty good against Broodlords. Most Zergs don't split them(As they don't split them even in ZvP and die to Vacuum, why would they split in ZvT?) so the HSM's should be able to deal some decent damage. Autoturrets also last forever and basically act like free bunkers with a marine inside them.

PDD also renders Corruptors completely useless, which would actually let Vikings defend themselves against the Corruptors, letting you combat the Broodlords. Then there's the thing that HSM one-shots Infestors and Infestors are too slow to run from one when it's launched.


However as we all know and have heard multiple times, Ravens suck and no Terran player should ever make them.


Every race at some point in this game's development finds itself forced to experiment. All the races under-utilize units or spells that may or may not be extremely useful in certain situations. As a Protoss player, I can assuredly tell you Ravens are scary. HSM against broods? Sounds good to me.


Remember when blizzard wanted to make zerg experiment infestor more ?
They buffed them so people use them.

I don't like the other way to dit it, aka : nerf everything else than the thing you want players to use.

=(
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
joeschmo
Profile Joined January 2011
United States167 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-21 14:54:45
February 21 2012 14:54 GMT
#586
If Ravens become standard, we're certain Brood Lords will be seperated or "split" to mitigate damage taken.
shizna
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom803 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-21 14:57:42
February 21 2012 14:57 GMT
#587
im secretly hoping that seeker missile gets reduced to 75 energy.... mmmm.... then a raven can almost kill a broodlord! and terran lategame will actually be good!
Kyuki
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1867 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-21 14:58:34
February 21 2012 14:57 GMT
#588
On February 21 2012 23:54 joeschmo wrote:
If Ravens become standard, we're certain Brood Lords will be seperated or "split" to mitigate damage taken.


And when they're spread it's alot easier to pick them off with vikings, since your infestors can't cover everything. It's just a matter of good positioning from both players, and that's how it should be. Unit and army control is a skill.
Mada Mada Dane
CyDe
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1010 Posts
February 21 2012 14:59 GMT
#589
On February 21 2012 23:26 shizna wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 22:49 Klystron wrote:
On February 21 2012 22:31 shizna wrote:
imo tier3 is meant to be a risk. but zerg establishes such an easy economic lead thanks to mobility and map control that tier3 is not a risk at all. this is fundamentally broken.

zerg basically rushes out tier3 tech and the appropriate counter is for terran to quickly tech to tier3 as well? that's just BS. the only way this favours terran is if zerg makes huge mistake or terran outplays the zerg and therefore deals enough damage to gimp the zerg economy.


Wrong, Zerg has no siege units before t3, which means that it is damn near impossible to attack a fortified position before BL's / Ultras.

PFs? Can't really kill them before BL / Ultras.

Supply Depot wall, supported by bunkers and 2-3 siege tanks? Can't attack before t3.

Before Broodlords the longest range unit that Zerg has is the Hydra, with range 6. As we all know hydras are shit in ZvT. That leaves Roaches, range 4. If Terran or Protoss manage to secure an advantage in the early / midgame they can just go kill their opponent. If zerg gets ahead in the early / midgame the only option is to take more bases, get further ahead economically, and get t3 out before he can go kill the other guy.


1. why do you attack a fortified position? don't let him get a fortified position that chokes you out and it's gravy.

2. don't let the terran get PF up... if you delay his 3rd long enough he has to turn that idle command centre into an orbital. or use your economic lead to pull his army out of position and nuke it down with banelings.

3. why do you need to attack before t3? think about it for a second. what do you hope to achieve by attacking a terran's siege line? "i have an extra base and therefore want an a-move win!"


a concept that almost no zerg seems to understand is that you don't need to directly attack when you're up on bases. maybe your tier3 is so ez that you expect to just a-move and win... i don't know.

what the hell is the point in attacking a fortified position when you have 5-6 bases and the terran is stuck on his 3-4 fortified bases? use the economic lead to spam nydus or drop instead of suiciding all units into the dumb choke with PF and 2344 tanks.

zerg can easily burrow at 3rd to delay. harrass terran main to delay. threaten counter attack to delay. if terran is turtling, massing ghosts and waiting for max upgrades, then make half a dozen nydus canals and simultaneous nydus worms.

but no, it's not needed because ultra/brood are braindead a-move and accomplish the same for zilch micro.


You know, this is actually an interesting point. Now that you point it out, I've realized that virtually all T3 is very lacking in micro intensity. Broodlords/ Battlecruisers/ Carriers are just too damn slow to do any really impressive micro; all you really have to do with those is predict which one is about to die and move it back.

Collusus are stutter-step-able, I guess, and Thors have to be focused depending on whether you want to attack air or ground, and ultras are the ultimate a-move unit (part of the reason their skill ceiling sucks and they, in turn, suck), but really, in a huge battle, who the hell is microing the T3? It's always the lower tier units being microed against the tier three.

I guess what my point is, the counters to T3 always required micro. Always. And by nerfing the ghost into oblivion, the skill... ground is raised. If you want to beat Zerg T3 as terran, you must micro against the T3 more than before, and then kill the entire army. Which is a much bigger nerf than it would originally appear.

I mean, really what I think should happen is ALL T3 units should be rethought to raise skill ceiling. It would make viable counters to them dependent on both players, not just on the specific tech one player decides to choose.

Then again, I am a lowly gold player, what would I know?
youtube.com/GamingCyDe-- My totally abandoned youtube channel that I might revisit at some point
Liight
Profile Joined March 2011
Iceland103 Posts
February 21 2012 15:02 GMT
#590
Blizzard making a retarded move.
Everyone shocked.

Why... ? its the most common thing in the universe.
It's been interesting.
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
February 21 2012 15:09 GMT
#591
On February 21 2012 23:59 CyDe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 23:26 shizna wrote:
On February 21 2012 22:49 Klystron wrote:
On February 21 2012 22:31 shizna wrote:
imo tier3 is meant to be a risk. but zerg establishes such an easy economic lead thanks to mobility and map control that tier3 is not a risk at all. this is fundamentally broken.

zerg basically rushes out tier3 tech and the appropriate counter is for terran to quickly tech to tier3 as well? that's just BS. the only way this favours terran is if zerg makes huge mistake or terran outplays the zerg and therefore deals enough damage to gimp the zerg economy.


Wrong, Zerg has no siege units before t3, which means that it is damn near impossible to attack a fortified position before BL's / Ultras.

PFs? Can't really kill them before BL / Ultras.

Supply Depot wall, supported by bunkers and 2-3 siege tanks? Can't attack before t3.

Before Broodlords the longest range unit that Zerg has is the Hydra, with range 6. As we all know hydras are shit in ZvT. That leaves Roaches, range 4. If Terran or Protoss manage to secure an advantage in the early / midgame they can just go kill their opponent. If zerg gets ahead in the early / midgame the only option is to take more bases, get further ahead economically, and get t3 out before he can go kill the other guy.


1. why do you attack a fortified position? don't let him get a fortified position that chokes you out and it's gravy.

2. don't let the terran get PF up... if you delay his 3rd long enough he has to turn that idle command centre into an orbital. or use your economic lead to pull his army out of position and nuke it down with banelings.

3. why do you need to attack before t3? think about it for a second. what do you hope to achieve by attacking a terran's siege line? "i have an extra base and therefore want an a-move win!"


a concept that almost no zerg seems to understand is that you don't need to directly attack when you're up on bases. maybe your tier3 is so ez that you expect to just a-move and win... i don't know.

what the hell is the point in attacking a fortified position when you have 5-6 bases and the terran is stuck on his 3-4 fortified bases? use the economic lead to spam nydus or drop instead of suiciding all units into the dumb choke with PF and 2344 tanks.

zerg can easily burrow at 3rd to delay. harrass terran main to delay. threaten counter attack to delay. if terran is turtling, massing ghosts and waiting for max upgrades, then make half a dozen nydus canals and simultaneous nydus worms.

but no, it's not needed because ultra/brood are braindead a-move and accomplish the same for zilch micro.


You know, this is actually an interesting point. Now that you point it out, I've realized that virtually all T3 is very lacking in micro intensity. Broodlords/ Battlecruisers/ Carriers are just too damn slow to do any really impressive micro; all you really have to do with those is predict which one is about to die and move it back.

Collusus are stutter-step-able, I guess, and Thors have to be focused depending on whether you want to attack air or ground, and ultras are the ultimate a-move unit (part of the reason their skill ceiling sucks and they, in turn, suck), but really, in a huge battle, who the hell is microing the T3? It's always the lower tier units being microed against the tier three.

I guess what my point is, the counters to T3 always required micro. Always. And by nerfing the ghost into oblivion, the skill... ground is raised. If you want to beat Zerg T3 as terran, you must micro against the T3 more than before, and then kill the entire army. Which is a much bigger nerf than it would originally appear.

I mean, really what I think should happen is ALL T3 units should be rethought to raise skill ceiling. It would make viable counters to them dependent on both players, not just on the specific tech one player decides to choose.

Then again, I am a lowly gold player, what would I know?


Colossus can't really stutter step. If you move them before the beam animation finishes, it doesn't deal damage. So there's like a few milliseconds between beams when they can move and not lose damage.

Carriers used to have attack-while retreating micro, but that's gone too now.

Most of the micro you see today is not necessarily micro *of* the power units, but micro of support units like sentries and infestors to set up the power units. I don't necessarily think that's bad design though.
HuKPOWA
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1604 Posts
February 21 2012 15:15 GMT
#592
I'm glad blizzard is being open with the patch notes...showing us everything so we can prpeare for it b/c of the tournament a day later....thank god blizzard knows how to inform its consumers .

*SARCASM*
shizna
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom803 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-21 15:26:44
February 21 2012 15:21 GMT
#593
On February 21 2012 23:44 Shikyo wrote:
Hate to say this but Ravens are actually pretty good against Broodlords. Most Zergs don't split them(As they don't split them even in ZvP and die to Vacuum, why would they split in ZvT?) so the HSM's should be able to deal some decent damage. Autoturrets also last forever and basically act like free bunkers with a marine inside them.

PDD also renders Corruptors completely useless, which would actually let Vikings defend themselves against the Corruptors, letting you combat the Broodlords. Then there's the thing that HSM one-shots Infestors and Infestors are too slow to run from one when it's launched.


However as we all know and have heard multiple times, Ravens suck and no Terran player should ever make them.


point about PDD is fair enough... but HSM is 6 range versus 9 range fungal... plus infestors on creep run the same speed as HSM. ergo if you're getting hit by HSM then you're failing.

also - what happens when you have ravens and zerg switches to ultralisk? that's a GG. vikings and ghosts are nowhere near as expensive and are far more timely than ravens. when a ghost (40 seconds to make) pops out you can immediately deal 45 x 3 damage. when a raven (60 seconds to make) pops out you can't even drop a PDD for 60 seconds yet... and it takes 2 minutes to be ready for a single 100 damage inferior range seeker missile.

in TvZ raven sucks compared to ghosts... that's an inarguable fact.

now.... if HSM was 75 energy so raven could be built and instantly have HSM ready - then it would be good out of the blocks. but the implication that terran can make now-ravens specifically to counter a broodlord/infestor army is retarded.
CyDe
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1010 Posts
February 21 2012 15:22 GMT
#594
On February 22 2012 00:09 Treehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 23:59 CyDe wrote:
On February 21 2012 23:26 shizna wrote:
On February 21 2012 22:49 Klystron wrote:
On February 21 2012 22:31 shizna wrote:
imo tier3 is meant to be a risk. but zerg establishes such an easy economic lead thanks to mobility and map control that tier3 is not a risk at all. this is fundamentally broken.

zerg basically rushes out tier3 tech and the appropriate counter is for terran to quickly tech to tier3 as well? that's just BS. the only way this favours terran is if zerg makes huge mistake or terran outplays the zerg and therefore deals enough damage to gimp the zerg economy.


Wrong, Zerg has no siege units before t3, which means that it is damn near impossible to attack a fortified position before BL's / Ultras.

PFs? Can't really kill them before BL / Ultras.

Supply Depot wall, supported by bunkers and 2-3 siege tanks? Can't attack before t3.

Before Broodlords the longest range unit that Zerg has is the Hydra, with range 6. As we all know hydras are shit in ZvT. That leaves Roaches, range 4. If Terran or Protoss manage to secure an advantage in the early / midgame they can just go kill their opponent. If zerg gets ahead in the early / midgame the only option is to take more bases, get further ahead economically, and get t3 out before he can go kill the other guy.


1. why do you attack a fortified position? don't let him get a fortified position that chokes you out and it's gravy.

2. don't let the terran get PF up... if you delay his 3rd long enough he has to turn that idle command centre into an orbital. or use your economic lead to pull his army out of position and nuke it down with banelings.

3. why do you need to attack before t3? think about it for a second. what do you hope to achieve by attacking a terran's siege line? "i have an extra base and therefore want an a-move win!"


a concept that almost no zerg seems to understand is that you don't need to directly attack when you're up on bases. maybe your tier3 is so ez that you expect to just a-move and win... i don't know.

what the hell is the point in attacking a fortified position when you have 5-6 bases and the terran is stuck on his 3-4 fortified bases? use the economic lead to spam nydus or drop instead of suiciding all units into the dumb choke with PF and 2344 tanks.

zerg can easily burrow at 3rd to delay. harrass terran main to delay. threaten counter attack to delay. if terran is turtling, massing ghosts and waiting for max upgrades, then make half a dozen nydus canals and simultaneous nydus worms.

but no, it's not needed because ultra/brood are braindead a-move and accomplish the same for zilch micro.


You know, this is actually an interesting point. Now that you point it out, I've realized that virtually all T3 is very lacking in micro intensity. Broodlords/ Battlecruisers/ Carriers are just too damn slow to do any really impressive micro; all you really have to do with those is predict which one is about to die and move it back.

Collusus are stutter-step-able, I guess, and Thors have to be focused depending on whether you want to attack air or ground, and ultras are the ultimate a-move unit (part of the reason their skill ceiling sucks and they, in turn, suck), but really, in a huge battle, who the hell is microing the T3? It's always the lower tier units being microed against the tier three.

I guess what my point is, the counters to T3 always required micro. Always. And by nerfing the ghost into oblivion, the skill... ground is raised. If you want to beat Zerg T3 as terran, you must micro against the T3 more than before, and then kill the entire army. Which is a much bigger nerf than it would originally appear.

I mean, really what I think should happen is ALL T3 units should be rethought to raise skill ceiling. It would make viable counters to them dependent on both players, not just on the specific tech one player decides to choose.

Then again, I am a lowly gold player, what would I know?


Colossus can't really stutter step. If you move them before the beam animation finishes, it doesn't deal damage. So there's like a few milliseconds between beams when they can move and not lose damage.

Carriers used to have attack-while retreating micro, but that's gone too now.

Most of the micro you see today is not necessarily micro *of* the power units, but micro of support units like sentries and infestors to set up the power units. I don't necessarily think that's bad design though.


Yeah that is what I am saying. T3 is rarely microed. I mean, it works alright, I guess, but wouldn't it be so much more interesting to see intense late game micro with Battlecruisers? It would be so impressive if done properly, and could make StarCraft 2 comparable to StarCraft 1 in terms in viewing intensity.
youtube.com/GamingCyDe-- My totally abandoned youtube channel that I might revisit at some point
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44305 Posts
February 21 2012 15:24 GMT
#595
3-11 AM PST (6 AM - 2 PM EST) battle.net is supposedly down, according to when I log in x.x

Sigh.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
February 21 2012 15:28 GMT
#596
Really TvP has been such a one sided onslaught for such a long time that it wasn't even funny anymore. No terran had to practice TvP because they almost couldn't lose the MU unless they screwed up super hard, especially in GSL.
Now Protoss players have figured out things that work against the current terran and zerg metagame. Suddenly, TvPs end up in lategame situations that Ts have never seen before because their MMM was always strong enough to just 1a through at some point in the early/midgame.
I say the matchups are gonna become a lot more even now. It's not like protoss are playing perfectly well engineered games either, they're cutting corners to get advantages (--> Parting's Nexus - Gate - Core - Nexus) because the straight up PvT of the past is a lost matchup for protoss.
PvZ might be toss favored atm, but that's solely because of the archon toilet imo. Then again, if it didn't exist, there'd be no stopping a late game zerg army. I think lategame PvZ might need some work but overall I feel like once players get used to the fresh metagame, things will be a lot more balanced than ever before.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
LRObot
Profile Joined April 2011
United States153 Posts
February 21 2012 15:31 GMT
#597
On February 21 2012 19:28 Mehukannu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 18:07 LRObot wrote:
Personally, I don't think we'll see the proliferation of Ravens like some zergs suggest. It's just too time and cost inefficient, especially as a transition. What we are going to see are ghosts transitioning sniping bl/ultra to mainly infestors and then afterwards, spend their remaining energy on bl/ultra.

I, again, still cannot understand why Blizz would want to nerf Terran's weakest stage of the game and not their strongest.

I doubt terrans would start to sink their APM into sniping bl/ultras to spend ghosts remaining energy and I don't think most people would make more than 4 ghost for sniping/EMP infestors either, since you are going to need much more supply in other units that could actually do something against zerg T3 units.


They'll make less ghosts, but their first priority is Infestor hunting. If and when that is successful, they spend whatever leftover snipes as additional DPS for brood/ultra. Those additional units at the immediate moment will probably be vikings. I just can't see T making more than 2-3 ravens when encountering that stage of the game.
Never say die
TheSubtleArt
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada2527 Posts
February 21 2012 15:34 GMT
#598
On February 22 2012 00:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Really TvP has been such a one sided onslaught for such a long time that it wasn't even funny anymore. No terran had to practice TvP because they almost couldn't lose the MU unless they screwed up super hard, especially in GSL.
Now Protoss players have figured out things that work against the current terran and zerg metagame. Suddenly, TvPs end up in lategame situations that Ts have never seen before because their MMM was always strong enough to just 1a through at some point in the early/midgame.
I say the matchups are gonna become a lot more even now. It's not like protoss are playing perfectly well engineered games either, they're cutting corners to get advantages (--> Parting's Nexus - Gate - Core - Nexus) because the straight up PvT of the past is a lost matchup for protoss.
PvZ might be toss favored atm, but that's solely because of the archon toilet imo. Then again, if it didn't exist, there'd be no stopping a late game zerg army. I think lategame PvZ might need some work but overall I feel like once players get used to the fresh metagame, things will be a lot more balanced than ever before.

Wasn't Protoss figuring the game out as much as it was patches. Warp prisms got buffed and most importantly ghosts got nerfed. EMP radius decrease and taking out 100 energy instead of all energy on spellcaster units is a pretty significant nerf.
Dodge arrows
CyDe
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1010 Posts
February 21 2012 15:37 GMT
#599
On February 22 2012 00:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Really TvP has been such a one sided onslaught for such a long time that it wasn't even funny anymore. No terran had to practice TvP because they almost couldn't lose the MU unless they screwed up super hard, especially in GSL.
Now Protoss players have figured out things that work against the current terran and zerg metagame. Suddenly, TvPs end up in lategame situations that Ts have never seen before because their MMM was always strong enough to just 1a through at some point in the early/midgame.
I say the matchups are gonna become a lot more even now. It's not like protoss are playing perfectly well engineered games either, they're cutting corners to get advantages (--> Parting's Nexus - Gate - Core - Nexus) because the straight up PvT of the past is a lost matchup for protoss.
PvZ might be toss favored atm, but that's solely because of the archon toilet imo. Then again, if it didn't exist, there'd be no stopping a late game zerg army. I think lategame PvZ might need some work but overall I feel like once players get used to the fresh metagame, things will be a lot more balanced than ever before.


What. I hope you just completely mistyped that entire paragraph. Come on, man. PvT has always been terran favored? Always? If I recall correctly, the four gate was pretty freaking ridiculous for quite a while there, and as soon collosodes are out, this precious MMM you speak of is completely nullified. Then it is a situation of whether or not the Protoss screws up, not the other way round. Protoss has a much easier time getting into an intense macro game, especially if chronoboost is used effectively.

I will admit there are several very overpowered timing attacks for terran to hit protoss with, which I abuse with glee, but mid late game the "favorage" shifts quickly to the Protoss side.

Oh, and I don't play Zerg, but to say that the ONLY reason that PvZ is Protoss favored is because of the archon toilet is simply ignorant. Seriously.
youtube.com/GamingCyDe-- My totally abandoned youtube channel that I might revisit at some point
Afterstar
Profile Joined November 2010
67 Posts
February 21 2012 15:39 GMT
#600
Why are they going through with such important changes without first testing them on the PTR?
Everytime there are significant unit changes,there is PTR to test things,so what gives this time?
Don't cry because it's over,smile because it happened.
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