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4713 Posts
I think are vastly over estimating the power of the Raven.
For one, it has delayed use as opposed to immediate usefulness since, it can't cast any of its useful spells right as it comes out, you need to wait 1 min for PDD and 1 more min for HSM.
Secondly 1 PDD will at most block one volley from the corrupters before the energy is depleted, its not like it lasts long enough. If you want more coverage, you need more PDDs, which means more Raven energy, ergo more time or more resources, something you may not have at that stage of the game.
People are also grossly over-estimating the efficiency of HSM. First, the AOE isn't that big, I'll not even get into the small range thing, which has already been pointed out. But the icing on the cake is that, for it to be successful you are relying on the stupidity of your opponent. You are hoping he is going to clump is brood and that you can do massive damage, as well as him being dumb and not fungaling.
This kind of thinking is very short sighted. You can't assume a strategy will work just because your opponent is bad and doesn't know how to react, that is a shit strategy that will crumble the moment opponents get fried and adapts the next time. When this fails, what are you going to fall back on?
In my opinion the best strategy should be relatively equal in cost and difficulty to execute as the counter strategy, and it should have an 50-50 chances to win or succeed, based on how well each player positioned and controlled his army.
And by how well each player used his army I don't mean the player that makes the mistake should lose, at that high level you need to assume people are doing to do minimum mistakes. No, you need to play like your opponent will play perfect and just force yourself to play better, be slightly faster, dodge fungals slightly better, reposition a bit more precise etc.
Maybe people should stop theory crafting about Ravens and actually try and use them for themselves and see how they actually work.
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On February 21 2012 23:44 Shikyo wrote:
Hate to say this but Ravens are actually pretty good against Broodlords. Most Zergs don't split them(As they don't split them even in ZvP and die to Vacuum, why would they split in ZvT?) so the HSM's should be able to deal some decent damage. Autoturrets also last forever and basically act like free bunkers with a marine inside them.
PDD also renders Corruptors completely useless, which would actually let Vikings defend themselves against the Corruptors, letting you combat the Broodlords. Then there's the thing that HSM one-shots Infestors and Infestors are too slow to run from one when it's launched.
However as we all know and have heard multiple times, Ravens suck and no Terran player should ever make them.
Although I like the suggestion and the effort this basically means terran has to play more of a marine style of play but this could be countered by infestors and corrupters. I'd see this as a more viable strat if ravens had faster speed or longer range on HSM.
Because of the infestors terran already has to have alot of the gas invested into tanks and then making the techswitch AND awaiting a couple of ravens energy to rise WHILE continuing productions of the regular units.. I dont see how this can work out.
Suddenly terran became very gasdependent because you'd need:
Tanks for banelings and infestors
Ghosts for emp on infestor.(although alot less now)
Vikings for broods AND corruptors
and then ravens with energy(probably with the raven energy upgrade).
At the stage of the game where zerg has broods in an average game I usually have 2 factorys and 2 starports(with reactor). Thats 250 gas for tanks every cycle and 300 gas for vikings every cycle plus the ghosts depending on how your infrastructure is thats about 2-300 gas every cycle. If we were to add in ravens that would be another 200 gas on a starport every cycle. (1050 gas in total every cycle and assuming your idea of play.)
If noone is in the lead I wouldn't say terran has the ability to produce this much gas in a switch only to have to switch to marauders in a heartbeat right after.
Untill we see like a total switch in metagame for terran (not playing the standard marine tank medivac) I dont see this as possible.
I'd love to make use of ravens though, feels like we cant fit ravens in anywhere except for TvT mech right now.
EDIT: + the things the above poster made.
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Could you please post the full patch note as soon as possible ? ;-)
Is the server maintenance finished @ NA ?
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They haven't updated the patch notes when you DL yet, NA is still unavailable otherwise.
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China6332 Posts
Patch 1.4.3 is updating on NA, servers not back up yet. The launcher still shows Patch 1.4.2
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On February 22 2012 01:06 digmouse wrote:
Patch 1.4.3 is updating on NA, servers not back up yet. The launcher still shows Patch 1.4.2
Same as above.
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I feel this patch is being rushed to solve the muta vs toss problem  no time to test it in Blizzards eyes.
Maybe it's just me but does it seem like Blizzard patches just as things are starting to get figured out?
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The patch will be released tomorrow for EU.
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OH THE SUSPENSE IS KILLING ME....
Come on Blizz, don't do me like this.
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On February 22 2012 01:08 Utinni wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 01:06 digmouse wrote:
Patch 1.4.3 is updating on NA, servers not back up yet. The launcher still shows Patch 1.4.2 Same as above.
Yeah same here. What the heck lol it says I'm re-updating 1.4.2. >.>
EDIT: Meh, I'm still down v.v
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checked editor, ghost change went through as stated
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no PTR ?? what the...
with that big changes a PTR server woud be better thar release the patch like this imo.
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On February 22 2012 01:17 luck_star21 wrote:
checked editor, ghost change went through as stated
What about phoenix? How much does the upgrade cost and is it still there?
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 22 2012 00:37 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 00:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Really TvP has been such a one sided onslaught for such a long time that it wasn't even funny anymore. No terran had to practice TvP because they almost couldn't lose the MU unless they screwed up super hard, especially in GSL.
Now Protoss players have figured out things that work against the current terran and zerg metagame. Suddenly, TvPs end up in lategame situations that Ts have never seen before because their MMM was always strong enough to just 1a through at some point in the early/midgame.
I say the matchups are gonna become a lot more even now. It's not like protoss are playing perfectly well engineered games either, they're cutting corners to get advantages (--> Parting's Nexus - Gate - Core - Nexus) because the straight up PvT of the past is a lost matchup for protoss.
PvZ might be toss favored atm, but that's solely because of the archon toilet imo. Then again, if it didn't exist, there'd be no stopping a late game zerg army. I think lategame PvZ might need some work but overall I feel like once players get used to the fresh metagame, things will be a lot more balanced than ever before. What. I hope you just completely mistyped that entire paragraph. Come on, man. PvT has always been terran favored? Always? If I recall correctly, the four gate was pretty freaking ridiculous for quite a while there, and as soon collosodes are out, this precious MMM you speak of is completely nullified. Then it is a situation of whether or not the Protoss screws up, not the other way round. Protoss has a much easier time getting into an intense macro game, especially if chronoboost is used effectively. I will admit there are several very overpowered timing attacks for terran to hit protoss with, which I abuse with glee, but mid late game the "favorage" shifts quickly to the Protoss side. Oh, and I don't play Zerg, but to say that the ONLY reason that PvZ is Protoss favored is because of the archon toilet is simply ignorant. Seriously.
I never said always, I said "for such a long time".
Dude, did you see how many protoss were in GSL compared to how many terrans there were? If the protoss went colossi, terran only had to mix in vikings and that was all. If they were going templar, ghosts.
I wasn't talking about how the game is right now, I was stating how Protoss was struggling with Terran gameplay in general. And that's how it was, I didn't make that up. I saw it whenever I watched tournaments, whenever I went to any forums. EMP was ridiculously OP.
Again, what I was saying is that protoss have learned how to get into macro games. Typically there always was an overpowered timing attack that ended the game in favor of terran or did so much damage that protoss could never compete lategame. That's what I meant by saying "lategame situations T has never seen before". Because, once again, toss has learned to minimize damage they take.
Also, terrans have ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS just done this one thing over and over again, using 4-5 units against protoss throughout the entire game and now they wonder why people found ways to deal with it? lol
Sure nerfs did their job but if they hadn't happened, no PvT would ever see a lategame.
Also yes, the archon toilet is the only thing really favoring toss. Anything else is balanced well enough for either race to win. 2 base all ins are powerful but if zergs scout correctly and maybe not expect the win screen to pop up once they reach 100 drones, they might learn how to deal with them. In fact, those 2 base all ins / 6 gate pushes and timings are created for the sole purpose of punishing zerg for being too greedy or to keep mutas out of play. They were a response to the metagame that protoss players came up with and wow, it's working. That doesn't break the matchup, it just might inspire zerg players to make a few units instead of drones. The archon toilet is OP for its brute force, no discussion about that.
Anything else is just people being used to doing the same thing over and over again because protoss didn't have an answer to it... well, they do now. Maybe switch things up a little?
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On February 22 2012 01:21 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 01:17 luck_star21 wrote:
checked editor, ghost change went through as stated What about phoenix? How much does the upgrade cost and is it still there?
Anyone else sitting on this thread, pressing refresh, waiting for luck_star21 to reply?
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On February 22 2012 01:23 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 01:21 Bagi wrote:On February 22 2012 01:17 luck_star21 wrote:
checked editor, ghost change went through as stated What about phoenix? How much does the upgrade cost and is it still there? Anyone else sitting on this thread, pressing refresh, waiting for luck_star21 to reply?
*blinks* hahahah maybe.
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Phoenix Range Upgrade 150Mins/150Gas 90sec research time
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Looks like the Phoenix buff went through, I see an Anion Pulse-Crystals upgrade on the fleet beacon when I believe the only upgrade on the Beacon before was the Carrier one? And it's associated with Phoenixes.
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EPT
