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Is it me or is T in general becoming more and more of a micro dependent race?
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On February 21 2012 14:27 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 14:02 tokicheese wrote:On February 21 2012 13:31 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 21 2012 13:14 Arkless wrote:On February 21 2012 11:55 kofman wrote:
Fuck blizzard. They don't give a shit about us Terrans, nerfing us every single chance they get. Every single successive season, Terran has been getting the short end of the stick, whether it is with bigger, Zerg-favored maps or stupid nerfs. Seriously, I'm done with this shit. Yea, I'm raging cause i'm on a huge losing streak, but still, fuck you blizzard.
User was warned for this post Even though he was warned, I agree with him fully. Ghosts and tanks have been molested into the ground. And the matchup is not only not T favored, but OP for zerg. Infestor muta broodlord????? none of it gets touched yet we get a snipe nerf? Cmon........Starting to think this has to do with a hots release date coming soon and wanting to have ppl jump on the zerg bandwagon coz this is rediculous. If you can't see the problem with muta/bl/infestor, yet you think snipe is a problem???? This just doesn't make sense in my brain. When I first saw the patch preview on the side bar I was like " Yes!!! Finally they are gonna do something about this bullshit muta/infestor/bl combo. Only to open the link and see mule and snipe nerf, at that moment my brain just turned off. there could be a coincidence between terran nerfs and terran having higher winrates on the highest level of play? i know it normalized in the last few months but most nerfs were needed. Stats show terran only winning 30% of their games late game TvZ at some tourney and then they nerf our late game option with no PTR? Really mind boggling Add onto this the new changes in HOTS Ultra Death charge makes that tech switch even more painful... That grab unit spell will just destroy terran with pulling tanks... Idk if terran doesnt get some love soon im switching to zerg with HOTS. Zero ladder games as Zerg and it is just as strong as my terran with 3000+ 1v1 games played all in masters top 20... I did love Terran played it all beta and yes it needed some nerfs but blizz is just neutering terran same reason that every patch blizzards nerfed terran and then terran winrates shot right back up to where they were before after a couple weeks. terran players keep finding new crutches that allow them to win without being all that good. mid game timings are so powerful and easy to win with up to a certain level that you have a ton of terrans who just 2 base allin every game and win the majority, but if they get past that they have no idea what to do and try to fight broodlord infestor with marine tank.
Even if terran can abuse bl/infestor immobility with drops, how do they stop their main from being destroyed? How do they do serious damage with drops if zerg can make infestors/lings/sunkens at home and wittle them down (this is what tends to happen to me)?
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On February 21 2012 16:09 YyapSsap wrote:
Is it me or is T in general becoming more and more of a micro dependent race?
Terran has always been the race that has benefited the most from micro ex. marine splitting, stutter stepping, and the likes. Yeah I have to agree with you I feel that it is going from benefiting terran to the point where its basically micro or die. If you mess up your micro as terran vs protoss you die, mess up vs zerg you die. Just my thoughts though
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On February 21 2012 16:13 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 16:09 YyapSsap wrote:
Is it me or is T in general becoming more and more of a micro dependent race?
Terran has always been the race that has benefited the most from micro ex. marine splitting, stutter stepping, and the likes. Yeah I have to agree with you I feel that it is going from benefiting terran to the point where its basically micro or die. If you mess up your micro as terran vs protoss you die, mess up vs zerg you die. Just my thoughts though
I guess that's a necessary evolution of balance. If a race is able to benefit from micro more than others, they need to be weaker in other ways or else there's imbalance. Unfortunately, this means that if balance is tweaked mostly to benefit top level balance, terrans who are unable to properly utilize this so-called "micro advantage" will suffer.
On a related note, Terran has always been the race most capable of doing devastating damage with various forms of harass and timing attacks. So in a numbers game, you need to balance the % of games terran tend to win with those types of strategies out with the number of games terrans lose in other ways.
I think david kim make a great decision in nerfing things like BF, medivac speed, and reapers, as it made terran weaker at harass but didn't affect their macro ability as much. Things like the tank nerf, bc nerf, and thor nerf however, were terrible decisions that have negatively impacted the game. Would much rather have had the healing ability of medivacs nerfed in some way and an earlier BF nerf. Think about how the game could have evolved differently and better if terran actually had the ability to play a fair macro game in the current metagame. I used to win by outmacroing my opponents. Now the only way I can win reliably against equal or worse skilled opponents is weird 1 base builds or 2 base allin (except TvT of course). Oh how far terran has fallen.
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On February 21 2012 15:52 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 15:38 nvrs wrote:On February 21 2012 14:27 IdrA wrote:On February 21 2012 14:02 tokicheese wrote:On February 21 2012 13:31 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 21 2012 13:14 Arkless wrote:On February 21 2012 11:55 kofman wrote:
Fuck blizzard. They don't give a shit about us Terrans, nerfing us every single chance they get. Every single successive season, Terran has been getting the short end of the stick, whether it is with bigger, Zerg-favored maps or stupid nerfs. Seriously, I'm done with this shit. Yea, I'm raging cause i'm on a huge losing streak, but still, fuck you blizzard.
User was warned for this post Even though he was warned, I agree with him fully. Ghosts and tanks have been molested into the ground. And the matchup is not only not T favored, but OP for zerg. Infestor muta broodlord????? none of it gets touched yet we get a snipe nerf? Cmon........Starting to think this has to do with a hots release date coming soon and wanting to have ppl jump on the zerg bandwagon coz this is rediculous. If you can't see the problem with muta/bl/infestor, yet you think snipe is a problem???? This just doesn't make sense in my brain. When I first saw the patch preview on the side bar I was like " Yes!!! Finally they are gonna do something about this bullshit muta/infestor/bl combo. Only to open the link and see mule and snipe nerf, at that moment my brain just turned off. there could be a coincidence between terran nerfs and terran having higher winrates on the highest level of play? i know it normalized in the last few months but most nerfs were needed. Stats show terran only winning 30% of their games late game TvZ at some tourney and then they nerf our late game option with no PTR? Really mind boggling Add onto this the new changes in HOTS Ultra Death charge makes that tech switch even more painful... That grab unit spell will just destroy terran with pulling tanks... Idk if terran doesnt get some love soon im switching to zerg with HOTS. Zero ladder games as Zerg and it is just as strong as my terran with 3000+ 1v1 games played all in masters top 20... I did love Terran played it all beta and yes it needed some nerfs but blizz is just neutering terran same reason that every patch blizzards nerfed terran and then terran winrates shot right back up to where they were before after a couple weeks. terran players keep finding new crutches that allow them to win without being all that good. mid game timings are so powerful and easy to win with up to a certain level that you have a ton of terrans who just 2 base allin every game and win the majority, but if they get past that they have no idea what to do and try to fight broodlord infestor with marine tank. I see, so its a loose loose situation for Terran eh Greg? But i guess you are trolling as always so there is no point in arguing, i mean its pretty obvious that Terran are having a really hard time vs P cause their late game is crap (comperatively) and we all know it and Protosses have become so much better at defending early pushes. Also TvZ lategame was looking balanced with ghosts, at least that's what the past few months tournament results were telling but lets ignore all these, Terran is OP! I am betting though that at some point they will have to do something about Terran's lategame hopefulness we were talking about tvz. tvp late game does seem very protoss favored and t might need help in that matchup. but terran incompetence accounts for that late game tvz win %. watch good terrans, ones who have games that end up in the late game without failing a timing attack, who know how to defend properly, who abuse broodlord infestor mobility with mass drops, who use nukes to harass and prevent big attacks, who scan z and make proper counter unit compositions. top tier t's have no problem going toe to toe with top tier z's late game, if the zergs manage to survive to that point.
Hang on a sec there Idra, the same could be said for a Zerg player. One word, DRG. So your saying Terran is OP or MVP is OP? This is exactly what I find disturbing, it's easy to put a "good Terran" up on a pedestal and say such things but the argument could be reversed around in favour of the Zerg player.
What I want to know is, why is the skill gap so much more wider between a Pro Terran player and a GM/Masters Terran player? Or as a matter of fact, why is the skill gap so far apart between a foreign Pro Terran and a Pro Korean Terran player? Now compare the size of the skill gap against Protoss or Zerg. See what I'm getting at here?
I'm actually very interested in someone explaining this to me who won't say "foreign Terrans are just shit."
There is a reason why we are seeing less Terrans on ladder.
I actually agree that snipe needed to be nerfed. But no where near as much as they have...... and WTF no PTR? Thats right, it's Terran getting nerfed. No biggie. They should be used to it by now.
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On February 18 2012 13:10 llKenZyll wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 13:07 Berailfor wrote:
Does seem a little odd that
A. There was no real PTR to even see how these changes will turn out.
B. They are doing it right before tournaments.
Definitely think there are better times to release the patch There was a PTR.
When?
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i agree. skill level of a top player can cloud the balance in a game.
its directly relatable to fighting games...
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On February 21 2012 13:56 [Azn]Nada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:19 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 07:01 fiveohfive wrote:On February 21 2012 05:18 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 05:11 [Azn]Nada wrote:
Let's break this down. Essentially, the TvZ metagame atm consists of zerg using their LOL-macro to make 14 drones whenever not being attacked, and terran, with their beautiful 2 scv pump (with an occassional mule), falling rediculously behind in economy. Terrans then must desperately harass the zerg (ie with gimmicky hellion drops), in a desperate hope to keep the zerg from easily running away in the econ game. Zerg can reach 70 workers in ~ 10 minutes (See idra games), while terran will be lucky to hit 70 workers after 25 minutes.
So this patch doesn't have THAT much of an effect on the game. Either the terran gets lucky with his gimmicky drops, kills tons of drones, and wins midgame, or loses lategame anyways to 5 base-70 drone zergs. All this patch does is guarantee that once zerg T-3 comes out with broodlords and infesters, the newly double-nerfed ghost will do absolutely jack shit, and the terran essentially rolls over and dies.
Legit, at this point, terrans should just gg upon scanning a greater spire. Corruptors literally ass-rape vikings (200 hp to 125, yea good luck LOL), especially with fungals everywhere, and aint no shit in the world gonna stop broodlords now.
I predict zergs will still be unhappy, quoting win ratios that are 6 months old or derived from a signle tournument. Please check out Husky Starcraft if you want to see zerg win - a terran hasn't won a TvZ series on his channel in around 7 months now. I'm decently sure zergs however will continue to bitch, though I do look forward to what unit Blizzard will nerf next.
The list of terran units nerfed are as following: Vikings (twice), SCV (once), marines (stim nerfed), marauders (once), Medivacs (twice), ghosts (three times), siege tanks (twice), hellions (three times). Barracks (twice), bunkers (twice) Legit, what else in the terran arsenal the zerg wants to nerf? Battlecrusiers? Ravens? The only units the zerg is OK with terran using seem to the units that are so bad they are NEVER used in competitive play.
I look forward to the day where zerg begins to petition for supply depots to cost 200 minerals.
I'd like to state that 90% of the above writing is facts, so please don't consider this whining and bitching.
Finally, I'd like to tell terrans to calm down. Essentially TvZ late game was like climbing a near vertical wall on your bare hands, but know its literally vertical so you don't even need to try and get your hands damaged. This really is a change for the better No, it's definitely whining and bitching. I take it you don't watch the GSL? Where TvZ at the highest level is still relatively even, maybe even favoring the Terran a little bit? I realize this is not necessarily reflective of the level you play at (Bronze), but stating that Terrans cannot win is blatantly false. Good players will learn to adapt. Or, Blizzard will realize the nerf is too large and reverse it. Either way complaining doesn't really accomplish anything. I'm just getting sick and tired of reading posts like these ^^^ Could you just stop and think? Ever thought, maybe... just MAYBE those Terrans at GSL level such as MMA, MVP and Jjakji are just GOOD and TALENTED players? It just frustrates the hell out of me when a Pro Terran seems to do so well and people automatically think, "Yep, gotta nerf that unit!" I think it's a complete cop out for Zerg and Protoss players to say to Terrans, "your just not good enough!" Yeah, Some Terrans in Code S are probably doing well, but you look at the rest of the Terrans from GM to Gold including foreign Pro's and tell me there isn't anything wrong! It's just like me saying to all the Zergs out there to harden the f^$k up because Nestea was doing so well in the GSL, back in the days when they all thought they were so underpowered. Or maybe tell Protoss to just deal with it because of MC's GSL success a while ago. I invite you to try viewing any Terran stream to the right of this post and see who many Terrans currently win late-game T v P (close to NIL). Now, put your biased bullshit Terran race hate aside and stop crying out for nerfs that aren't needed! I just really hope T v Z doesn't follow in the same direction as the T v P mu. Terrans are really starting to run out of options as to what units they can actually use. What does Blizzard want us to do? Make marines only? Even those are utter dog shit late-game. I did stop and think. Did you? Nowhere did I say that MVP/MMA/Jjakji aren't good and are being carried by overpowered unit X. I never called for a Ghost nerf because I thought the unit was fine. But then again I'm not a progamer or a developer. It could be said that just like Korean Terrans are really good, most foreign Terrans are really bad. ThorZain is really the only foreign Terran that has shown any sustained success. But that's beside the point. They ended up putting through a Ghost nerf, whether it was justifiable or not, and the post that I quoted was most certainly bitching about it. If you are a professional player (like beastyqt) I could see being upset about a major change like this, because it directly relates to his bottom line and livelihood. But random ladder warriors raging about a change they have absolutely no influence over just makes me laugh. Good players will adapt, even if the change didn't make sense to begin with. And your "learn to play!" analogy is funny because many people were claiming Zerg was fine, quoting NesTea's successes. Many people were also claiming that Protoss was fine, quoting MC's successes. Now you get many people saying Terran was fine because of how well Korean Terrans continue to do. Whether any of these groups were right or wrong is subjective, but I think it's funny you pretended like it didn't happen. And as for your claim that I have "biased bullshit Terran race hate," I play Random, and admittedly Terran is my worst race. But I still enjoy it more than Zerg, and slightly less than Protoss. TvP is my best Terran match up, although that's only at the low-Master level. The sky is not falling. To counter your previous statements. First, I quote husky as a source, because husky's channel contains mostly FOREIGN games, games outside korea. I did not mention this, but HD also had a 4.5 month span in which no terran won a non-mirror series. These two casts games from nearly every single famous non-korean, and the fact that they can cast a combined some 30 continuous nonmirror series involving terrans in which terran cannot win suggests that OUTSIDE korea, something is horribly wrong. As the person whom you are responding to suggested, OUTSIDE of korea, terran simply is getting wiped off the face of the planet. I remember a several-hundred post thread in which hundreds of people noticed terran disappearing off ladder, and hundreds more saying they switched races and instantly gained 1-2 leagues within days. While Blizzard should address problems in korea, a good portion of SC2 players are foriegn, and it just kills me to see terran just constantly lose on BOTH of the most popular nonkorean streams. "It could be said that just like Korean Terrans are really good, most foreign Terrans are really bad. ThorZain is really the only foreign Terran that has shown any sustained success. " You yourself even realized that the truth of the matter is, foreign terrans are trash these days. The question is, is Blizzard correct to ignore the foreign scene to balance out GSL? That is the central question. My stance is no, because if they do, sc2 will end up like sc1 with no global market. You suggest that this won't effect TvZ too much. What I'm saying, is after watching hundreds of series, TvZ late game is already a rediclous uphill climb for terran, and this essentially kills them. You then try to qualify by saying that oh, blizzard will unnerf it if needed. What I'm saying is that Blizzard is largely ignoring the foreign community, where lategame TvZ is already (as you suggested) super difficult. I am saying they are incorrect to do this, all in hopes of balancing out GSL I've watched BW for 5.5 years now and I was C+ in 1v1 on iccup, and then Diamond as terran for a while in SC2, before losing interest. So please don't tell me I'm "bronze league". Yes I do know EXACTLY what I'm talking about, for a couple years I spent 8+ hours a day on Starcraft. As for GSL imbalance, I'd suggest you review the "Elephant in the Room" thread that was posted by a mod a while back. Nestea, the best zerg, was ZERGBONG - the only series he won was against great. MC was known as the SUICIDE toss. 1-9 record in SC1. If you've watched any SC1, ie. with Cholera/etc. you'll begin to realize that the current top Z/P players were literally the WORST of the SC1 group. On the other hand, decent terrans have switched. MVP was 50% in proleague, and beat (in consecutive Bo3 series) Jangbi, Best, Baby. ForGG, I don't even need to say - an MSL win over Flash AND Jaedong in two consecutive best of 5 series. The simple fact is, terrans in korea were better than the top protoss/zerg, and should continue to be better, not be nerfed until their skill has to compensate for terran weakness. The simple fact is, top terrans in GSL are trained by Boxer, and were better in SC1 by miles. They SHOULD continue to be better in SC2. Their skill overrides imbalance, hence why they win a lot, and Blizzard is essentially nerfing terran until their skill advantage is negated. I'm stating that this is killing the game, as terran outside korea is already a very difficult race to play, and that this is just another wound to an essentially dead animal.
Give me about 20 minutes and I can find about 50 non-mirror games in which Terran loses.
Having such a small sample doesn't reflect the actual statistics of the match-ups. In order to get an accurate measurement, you would have to have THOUSANDS of games in your "study."
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On February 21 2012 15:52 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 15:38 nvrs wrote:On February 21 2012 14:27 IdrA wrote:On February 21 2012 14:02 tokicheese wrote:On February 21 2012 13:31 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 21 2012 13:14 Arkless wrote:On February 21 2012 11:55 kofman wrote:
Fuck blizzard. They don't give a shit about us Terrans, nerfing us every single chance they get. Every single successive season, Terran has been getting the short end of the stick, whether it is with bigger, Zerg-favored maps or stupid nerfs. Seriously, I'm done with this shit. Yea, I'm raging cause i'm on a huge losing streak, but still, fuck you blizzard.
User was warned for this post Even though he was warned, I agree with him fully. Ghosts and tanks have been molested into the ground. And the matchup is not only not T favored, but OP for zerg. Infestor muta broodlord????? none of it gets touched yet we get a snipe nerf? Cmon........Starting to think this has to do with a hots release date coming soon and wanting to have ppl jump on the zerg bandwagon coz this is rediculous. If you can't see the problem with muta/bl/infestor, yet you think snipe is a problem???? This just doesn't make sense in my brain. When I first saw the patch preview on the side bar I was like " Yes!!! Finally they are gonna do something about this bullshit muta/infestor/bl combo. Only to open the link and see mule and snipe nerf, at that moment my brain just turned off. there could be a coincidence between terran nerfs and terran having higher winrates on the highest level of play? i know it normalized in the last few months but most nerfs were needed. Stats show terran only winning 30% of their games late game TvZ at some tourney and then they nerf our late game option with no PTR? Really mind boggling Add onto this the new changes in HOTS Ultra Death charge makes that tech switch even more painful... That grab unit spell will just destroy terran with pulling tanks... Idk if terran doesnt get some love soon im switching to zerg with HOTS. Zero ladder games as Zerg and it is just as strong as my terran with 3000+ 1v1 games played all in masters top 20... I did love Terran played it all beta and yes it needed some nerfs but blizz is just neutering terran same reason that every patch blizzards nerfed terran and then terran winrates shot right back up to where they were before after a couple weeks. terran players keep finding new crutches that allow them to win without being all that good. mid game timings are so powerful and easy to win with up to a certain level that you have a ton of terrans who just 2 base allin every game and win the majority, but if they get past that they have no idea what to do and try to fight broodlord infestor with marine tank. I see, so its a loose loose situation for Terran eh Greg? But i guess you are trolling as always so there is no point in arguing, i mean its pretty obvious that Terran are having a really hard time vs P cause their late game is crap (comperatively) and we all know it and Protosses have become so much better at defending early pushes. Also TvZ lategame was looking balanced with ghosts, at least that's what the past few months tournament results were telling but lets ignore all these, Terran is OP! I am betting though that at some point they will have to do something about Terran's lategame hopefulness we were talking about tvz. tvp late game does seem very protoss favored and t might need help in that matchup. but terran incompetence accounts for that late game tvz win %. watch good terrans, ones who have games that end up in the late game without failing a timing attack, who know how to defend properly, who abuse broodlord infestor mobility with mass drops, who use nukes to harass and prevent big attacks, who scan z and make proper counter unit compositions. top tier t's have no problem going toe to toe with top tier z's late game, if the zergs manage to survive to that point.
I agree, but nerfing snipe is still retarded.
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On February 21 2012 16:45 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 15:52 IdrA wrote:On February 21 2012 15:38 nvrs wrote:On February 21 2012 14:27 IdrA wrote:On February 21 2012 14:02 tokicheese wrote:On February 21 2012 13:31 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 21 2012 13:14 Arkless wrote:On February 21 2012 11:55 kofman wrote:
Fuck blizzard. They don't give a shit about us Terrans, nerfing us every single chance they get. Every single successive season, Terran has been getting the short end of the stick, whether it is with bigger, Zerg-favored maps or stupid nerfs. Seriously, I'm done with this shit. Yea, I'm raging cause i'm on a huge losing streak, but still, fuck you blizzard.
User was warned for this post Even though he was warned, I agree with him fully. Ghosts and tanks have been molested into the ground. And the matchup is not only not T favored, but OP for zerg. Infestor muta broodlord????? none of it gets touched yet we get a snipe nerf? Cmon........Starting to think this has to do with a hots release date coming soon and wanting to have ppl jump on the zerg bandwagon coz this is rediculous. If you can't see the problem with muta/bl/infestor, yet you think snipe is a problem???? This just doesn't make sense in my brain. When I first saw the patch preview on the side bar I was like " Yes!!! Finally they are gonna do something about this bullshit muta/infestor/bl combo. Only to open the link and see mule and snipe nerf, at that moment my brain just turned off. there could be a coincidence between terran nerfs and terran having higher winrates on the highest level of play? i know it normalized in the last few months but most nerfs were needed. Stats show terran only winning 30% of their games late game TvZ at some tourney and then they nerf our late game option with no PTR? Really mind boggling Add onto this the new changes in HOTS Ultra Death charge makes that tech switch even more painful... That grab unit spell will just destroy terran with pulling tanks... Idk if terran doesnt get some love soon im switching to zerg with HOTS. Zero ladder games as Zerg and it is just as strong as my terran with 3000+ 1v1 games played all in masters top 20... I did love Terran played it all beta and yes it needed some nerfs but blizz is just neutering terran same reason that every patch blizzards nerfed terran and then terran winrates shot right back up to where they were before after a couple weeks. terran players keep finding new crutches that allow them to win without being all that good. mid game timings are so powerful and easy to win with up to a certain level that you have a ton of terrans who just 2 base allin every game and win the majority, but if they get past that they have no idea what to do and try to fight broodlord infestor with marine tank. I see, so its a loose loose situation for Terran eh Greg? But i guess you are trolling as always so there is no point in arguing, i mean its pretty obvious that Terran are having a really hard time vs P cause their late game is crap (comperatively) and we all know it and Protosses have become so much better at defending early pushes. Also TvZ lategame was looking balanced with ghosts, at least that's what the past few months tournament results were telling but lets ignore all these, Terran is OP! I am betting though that at some point they will have to do something about Terran's lategame hopefulness we were talking about tvz. tvp late game does seem very protoss favored and t might need help in that matchup. but terran incompetence accounts for that late game tvz win %. watch good terrans, ones who have games that end up in the late game without failing a timing attack, who know how to defend properly, who abuse broodlord infestor mobility with mass drops, who use nukes to harass and prevent big attacks, who scan z and make proper counter unit compositions. top tier t's have no problem going toe to toe with top tier z's late game, if the zergs manage to survive to that point. I agree, but nerfing snipe is still retarded.
So is watching ultra/bl die in about 5 seconds.
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Anyone know how many hours untill NA starts patching and we see more than just "Most major planned patch changes"?
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Is it so hard to understand that the race with the highest win-rates since beta gets the most nerfs? And please spare me the 'then we have to 1/2 base all-in 24/7' crap when all you do and did is just that. I have never seen ghosts being part of the terran arsenal under 12 minutes, have you?
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On February 21 2012 17:02 Hetz wrote:
Is it so hard to understand that the race with the highest win-rates since beta gets the most nerfs? And please spare me the 'then we have to 1/2 base all-in 24/7' crap when all you do and did is just that. I have never seen ghosts being part of the terran arsenal under 12 minutes, have you?
yes i have. for example in expand 3 rax+ 2 ghost pressures vs toss.
also i have never seen broodlord under minute 14. where is the point? you just cant afford it...
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The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM.
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On February 21 2012 17:10 decaf wrote:
The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM.
one unit to counter them all.
exactly there is the problem. ghost is supposed to be an "anti spellcaster unit" and thats what he is with emp and snipe vs psionic. plus nuke harrass (dont underestimate it)
edit: if u think tvz winrate will drop take a look at HSM-raven vs broodlord immobility. and dont talk about ultras please, they are hilarious.
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On February 21 2012 17:17 Fortii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:10 decaf wrote:
The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM. one unit to counter them all.
To be fair terran needs some unit that is good against all zerg army compositions, simply because they cannot match the zerg in production and the ability to switch between techs. Protoss is in a similar situation in PvZ, and luckily for them stalkers are pretty good against all zerg unit comps.
Ghosts used to be that unit for terran in the lategame, now it has to be the marine again.
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zergs dont switch tech. zergs go broodlord or die. ultralisks are fucking retarded, dont count them as actual units please.
edit: same for carrier and battlecruiser. no arguing about that.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 21 2012 17:17 Fortii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:10 decaf wrote:
The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM. one unit to counter them all. exactly there is the problem. ghost is supposed to be an "anti spellcaster unit" and thats what he is with emp and snipe vs psionic. plus nuke harrass (dont underestimate it) Well, now it is; I don't see any reason why I was supposed to believe that before the current nerf.
edit: if u think tvz winrate will drop take a look at HSM-raven vs broodlord immobility. and dont talk about ultras please, they are hilarious.
HSM has a variety of problems, but players better than me have said that it is potentially viable in mech so I guess I will not trashtalk it quite as much as I used to. Also, ultras are an issue when you have a bunch of supply tied up in units that don't shoot down very well.
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On February 21 2012 17:17 Fortii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:10 decaf wrote:
The biggest benefit you get from ghosts is that they reduce the need of scouting late game. Now that they're basically useless vs blords and ultras terran has no legit way to deal with blord <-> ultra switches, because once you scout what's popping out of the eggs it's already too late to react with a few rounds of marauders/vikings. Ghosts allowed for a core unit composition that was able to deal with both reasonably well. I imagine TvZ will still be winnable for extremely good terrans even though it is getting a lot harder, but the TvZ winrate should drop way down up to mid GM. one unit to counter them all. exactly there is the problem. ghost is supposed to be an "anti spellcaster unit" and thats what he is with emp and snipe vs psionic. plus nuke harrass (dont underestimate it) edit: if u think tvz winrate will drop take a look at HSM-raven vs broodlord immobility. and dont talk about ultras please, they are hilarious.
The infestor counters everything terran has..bio, air, mech you name it and it does AOE damage .....AND you can't even run away while your units are dying. Talk about a bullshit spell. I can't believe zerg players have the nerve to complain about snipe when the have the most OP spellcaster in the game.
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On February 21 2012 17:20 Bagi wrote:
Ghosts used to be that unit for terran in the lategame, now it has to be the marine again.
This has me laughing so hard! xD
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