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This patch will be a doomsday for the foreign terrans who are struggling hard in the offline tournament scene. But i dont see it affecting GSL all that much since basicly they are raping every zerg hard now who isnt DRG . What's making most of the terrans struggle now (all over the world) is the sudden rise in skill off all the protoss's in the world.
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On February 21 2012 07:19 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:01 fiveohfive wrote:On February 21 2012 05:18 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 05:11 [Azn]Nada wrote:
Let's break this down. Essentially, the TvZ metagame atm consists of zerg using their LOL-macro to make 14 drones whenever not being attacked, and terran, with their beautiful 2 scv pump (with an occassional mule), falling rediculously behind in economy. Terrans then must desperately harass the zerg (ie with gimmicky hellion drops), in a desperate hope to keep the zerg from easily running away in the econ game. Zerg can reach 70 workers in ~ 10 minutes (See idra games), while terran will be lucky to hit 70 workers after 25 minutes.
So this patch doesn't have THAT much of an effect on the game. Either the terran gets lucky with his gimmicky drops, kills tons of drones, and wins midgame, or loses lategame anyways to 5 base-70 drone zergs. All this patch does is guarantee that once zerg T-3 comes out with broodlords and infesters, the newly double-nerfed ghost will do absolutely jack shit, and the terran essentially rolls over and dies.
Legit, at this point, terrans should just gg upon scanning a greater spire. Corruptors literally ass-rape vikings (200 hp to 125, yea good luck LOL), especially with fungals everywhere, and aint no shit in the world gonna stop broodlords now.
I predict zergs will still be unhappy, quoting win ratios that are 6 months old or derived from a signle tournument. Please check out Husky Starcraft if you want to see zerg win - a terran hasn't won a TvZ series on his channel in around 7 months now. I'm decently sure zergs however will continue to bitch, though I do look forward to what unit Blizzard will nerf next.
The list of terran units nerfed are as following: Vikings (twice), SCV (once), marines (stim nerfed), marauders (once), Medivacs (twice), ghosts (three times), siege tanks (twice), hellions (three times). Barracks (twice), bunkers (twice) Legit, what else in the terran arsenal the zerg wants to nerf? Battlecrusiers? Ravens? The only units the zerg is OK with terran using seem to the units that are so bad they are NEVER used in competitive play.
I look forward to the day where zerg begins to petition for supply depots to cost 200 minerals.
I'd like to state that 90% of the above writing is facts, so please don't consider this whining and bitching.
Finally, I'd like to tell terrans to calm down. Essentially TvZ late game was like climbing a near vertical wall on your bare hands, but know its literally vertical so you don't even need to try and get your hands damaged. This really is a change for the better No, it's definitely whining and bitching. I take it you don't watch the GSL? Where TvZ at the highest level is still relatively even, maybe even favoring the Terran a little bit? I realize this is not necessarily reflective of the level you play at (Bronze), but stating that Terrans cannot win is blatantly false. Good players will learn to adapt. Or, Blizzard will realize the nerf is too large and reverse it. Either way complaining doesn't really accomplish anything. I'm just getting sick and tired of reading posts like these ^^^ Could you just stop and think? Ever thought, maybe... just MAYBE those Terrans at GSL level such as MMA, MVP and Jjakji are just GOOD and TALENTED players? It just frustrates the hell out of me when a Pro Terran seems to do so well and people automatically think, "Yep, gotta nerf that unit!" I think it's a complete cop out for Zerg and Protoss players to say to Terrans, "your just not good enough!" Yeah, Some Terrans in Code S are probably doing well, but you look at the rest of the Terrans from GM to Gold including foreign Pro's and tell me there isn't anything wrong! It's just like me saying to all the Zergs out there to harden the f^$k up because Nestea was doing so well in the GSL, back in the days when they all thought they were so underpowered. Or maybe tell Protoss to just deal with it because of MC's GSL success a while ago. I invite you to try viewing any Terran stream to the right of this post and see who many Terrans currently win late-game T v P (close to NIL). Now, put your biased bullshit Terran race hate aside and stop crying out for nerfs that aren't needed! I just really hope T v Z doesn't follow in the same direction as the T v P mu. Terrans are really starting to run out of options as to what units they can actually use. What does Blizzard want us to do? Make marines only? Even those are utter dog shit late-game. I did stop and think. Did you? Nowhere did I say that MVP/MMA/Jjakji aren't good and are being carried by overpowered unit X. I never called for a Ghost nerf because I thought the unit was fine. But then again I'm not a progamer or a developer. It could be said that just like Korean Terrans are really good, most foreign Terrans are really bad. ThorZain is really the only foreign Terran that has shown any sustained success. But that's beside the point. They ended up putting through a Ghost nerf, whether it was justifiable or not, and the post that I quoted was most certainly bitching about it. If you are a professional player (like beastyqt) I could see being upset about a major change like this, because it directly relates to his bottom line and livelihood. But random ladder warriors raging about a change they have absolutely no influence over just makes me laugh. Good players will adapt, even if the change didn't make sense to begin with. And your "learn to play!" analogy is funny because many people were claiming Zerg was fine, quoting NesTea's successes. Many people were also claiming that Protoss was fine, quoting MC's successes. Now you get many people saying Terran was fine because of how well Korean Terrans continue to do. Whether any of these groups were right or wrong is subjective, but I think it's funny you pretended like it didn't happen. And as for your claim that I have "biased bullshit Terran race hate," I play Random, and admittedly Terran is my worst race. But I still enjoy it more than Zerg, and slightly less than Protoss. TvP is my best Terran match up, although that's only at the low-Master level. The sky is not falling.
Random Ladder warriors? If this was the case, why do you and so many others feel it necessary to come in here and justify your argument (last time I checked, you aren't a GSL level player)? You can try and argue and justify yourself as much as you want. But it's not new for people to come in and argue a point across just to try and get their MU easier to play.
Anyone with half a brain would know that the current state of the Terran race just isn't right.
Yeah I'm pretty sure my T v P win ratio would improve as well if I started to all-in every single game.
@massivez, it isn't a sudden skill rise of Protosses over the world. LOL. It's just the non-stop Protoss buffs and constant Terran nerfs as of late.
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On February 21 2012 05:59 p1cKLes wrote:I know I get frustrated and I’m honestly not trying to QQ here. I just feel like unless you are a Terran Korean GrandMaster your chance of beating protoss is pretty slim and I’m sorry, I would like to have some fun too. We are not all Korean GM’s. I look at the statistics from silver to diamond and Terran is significantly weaker by a fairly big margin. I’ve been playing Terran for the last year and half and I feel like I’ve gotten nowhere with Protoss other than all-in’ing to win and I just refuse to do that. I was platinum and now I’m gold. I’ve beaten platinum and diamond zerg and terran, but can’t beat gold Protoss. I had a moment of weakness yesterday and got so frustrated that I said screw it, I’m switching races and I played Protoss for the first time yesterday with a little help from my buddy telling me some build orders, and…? I beat a platinum terran. Trapped him in a corner with a nice little deathball. Did feedback on his medivacs so he couldn’t fly away and stormed the rest. I even held off a 1/1/1 after the second time from a platinum terran player. My protoss buddy said see how frustrating the 1/1/1 is? I said umm dude, I feel like this every time I play protoss…lol He then asked you think ghost is op now? I said no not really I just spread out my ht’s as if banelings were headed my way so the ones that don’t get hit… “storm” The ones that do archons. Anyways, I’m not giving up. I love playing terran, I just occasionally get so frustrated that I let my anger get the best of me, but I know sooner or later I’ll get better it just takes practice. This is my first RTS ever so I have a feeling that it will take me longer than most. I just hope not too long 
I placed into Diamond as Terran using a mix of 1-1-1s and 2 raxes. Those were the only 5 games I've played as Terran. Does this mean Terran is OP?
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On February 21 2012 07:40 xtruder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 05:59 p1cKLes wrote:I know I get frustrated and I’m honestly not trying to QQ here. I just feel like unless you are a Terran Korean GrandMaster your chance of beating protoss is pretty slim and I’m sorry, I would like to have some fun too. We are not all Korean GM’s. I look at the statistics from silver to diamond and Terran is significantly weaker by a fairly big margin. I’ve been playing Terran for the last year and half and I feel like I’ve gotten nowhere with Protoss other than all-in’ing to win and I just refuse to do that. I was platinum and now I’m gold. I’ve beaten platinum and diamond zerg and terran, but can’t beat gold Protoss. I had a moment of weakness yesterday and got so frustrated that I said screw it, I’m switching races and I played Protoss for the first time yesterday with a little help from my buddy telling me some build orders, and…? I beat a platinum terran. Trapped him in a corner with a nice little deathball. Did feedback on his medivacs so he couldn’t fly away and stormed the rest. I even held off a 1/1/1 after the second time from a platinum terran player. My protoss buddy said see how frustrating the 1/1/1 is? I said umm dude, I feel like this every time I play protoss…lol He then asked you think ghost is op now? I said no not really I just spread out my ht’s as if banelings were headed my way so the ones that don’t get hit… “storm” The ones that do archons. Anyways, I’m not giving up. I love playing terran, I just occasionally get so frustrated that I let my anger get the best of me, but I know sooner or later I’ll get better it just takes practice. This is my first RTS ever so I have a feeling that it will take me longer than most. I just hope not too long I placed into Diamond as Terran using a mix of 1-1-1s and 2 raxes. Those were the only 5 games I've played as Terran. Does this mean Terran is OP?
I placed into Diamond as Zerg playing mass roach vs. Protoss, roach openings against Z (lol), and muta/ling/bane into broods against Terran. It means nothing.
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On February 21 2012 07:38 fiveohfive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:19 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 07:01 fiveohfive wrote:On February 21 2012 05:18 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 05:11 [Azn]Nada wrote:
Let's break this down. Essentially, the TvZ metagame atm consists of zerg using their LOL-macro to make 14 drones whenever not being attacked, and terran, with their beautiful 2 scv pump (with an occassional mule), falling rediculously behind in economy. Terrans then must desperately harass the zerg (ie with gimmicky hellion drops), in a desperate hope to keep the zerg from easily running away in the econ game. Zerg can reach 70 workers in ~ 10 minutes (See idra games), while terran will be lucky to hit 70 workers after 25 minutes.
So this patch doesn't have THAT much of an effect on the game. Either the terran gets lucky with his gimmicky drops, kills tons of drones, and wins midgame, or loses lategame anyways to 5 base-70 drone zergs. All this patch does is guarantee that once zerg T-3 comes out with broodlords and infesters, the newly double-nerfed ghost will do absolutely jack shit, and the terran essentially rolls over and dies.
Legit, at this point, terrans should just gg upon scanning a greater spire. Corruptors literally ass-rape vikings (200 hp to 125, yea good luck LOL), especially with fungals everywhere, and aint no shit in the world gonna stop broodlords now.
I predict zergs will still be unhappy, quoting win ratios that are 6 months old or derived from a signle tournument. Please check out Husky Starcraft if you want to see zerg win - a terran hasn't won a TvZ series on his channel in around 7 months now. I'm decently sure zergs however will continue to bitch, though I do look forward to what unit Blizzard will nerf next.
The list of terran units nerfed are as following: Vikings (twice), SCV (once), marines (stim nerfed), marauders (once), Medivacs (twice), ghosts (three times), siege tanks (twice), hellions (three times). Barracks (twice), bunkers (twice) Legit, what else in the terran arsenal the zerg wants to nerf? Battlecrusiers? Ravens? The only units the zerg is OK with terran using seem to the units that are so bad they are NEVER used in competitive play.
I look forward to the day where zerg begins to petition for supply depots to cost 200 minerals.
I'd like to state that 90% of the above writing is facts, so please don't consider this whining and bitching.
Finally, I'd like to tell terrans to calm down. Essentially TvZ late game was like climbing a near vertical wall on your bare hands, but know its literally vertical so you don't even need to try and get your hands damaged. This really is a change for the better No, it's definitely whining and bitching. I take it you don't watch the GSL? Where TvZ at the highest level is still relatively even, maybe even favoring the Terran a little bit? I realize this is not necessarily reflective of the level you play at (Bronze), but stating that Terrans cannot win is blatantly false. Good players will learn to adapt. Or, Blizzard will realize the nerf is too large and reverse it. Either way complaining doesn't really accomplish anything. I'm just getting sick and tired of reading posts like these ^^^ Could you just stop and think? Ever thought, maybe... just MAYBE those Terrans at GSL level such as MMA, MVP and Jjakji are just GOOD and TALENTED players? It just frustrates the hell out of me when a Pro Terran seems to do so well and people automatically think, "Yep, gotta nerf that unit!" I think it's a complete cop out for Zerg and Protoss players to say to Terrans, "your just not good enough!" Yeah, Some Terrans in Code S are probably doing well, but you look at the rest of the Terrans from GM to Gold including foreign Pro's and tell me there isn't anything wrong! It's just like me saying to all the Zergs out there to harden the f^$k up because Nestea was doing so well in the GSL, back in the days when they all thought they were so underpowered. Or maybe tell Protoss to just deal with it because of MC's GSL success a while ago. I invite you to try viewing any Terran stream to the right of this post and see who many Terrans currently win late-game T v P (close to NIL). Now, put your biased bullshit Terran race hate aside and stop crying out for nerfs that aren't needed! I just really hope T v Z doesn't follow in the same direction as the T v P mu. Terrans are really starting to run out of options as to what units they can actually use. What does Blizzard want us to do? Make marines only? Even those are utter dog shit late-game. I did stop and think. Did you? Nowhere did I say that MVP/MMA/Jjakji aren't good and are being carried by overpowered unit X. I never called for a Ghost nerf because I thought the unit was fine. But then again I'm not a progamer or a developer. It could be said that just like Korean Terrans are really good, most foreign Terrans are really bad. ThorZain is really the only foreign Terran that has shown any sustained success. But that's beside the point. They ended up putting through a Ghost nerf, whether it was justifiable or not, and the post that I quoted was most certainly bitching about it. If you are a professional player (like beastyqt) I could see being upset about a major change like this, because it directly relates to his bottom line and livelihood. But random ladder warriors raging about a change they have absolutely no influence over just makes me laugh. Good players will adapt, even if the change didn't make sense to begin with. And your "learn to play!" analogy is funny because many people were claiming Zerg was fine, quoting NesTea's successes. Many people were also claiming that Protoss was fine, quoting MC's successes. Now you get many people saying Terran was fine because of how well Korean Terrans continue to do. Whether any of these groups were right or wrong is subjective, but I think it's funny you pretended like it didn't happen. And as for your claim that I have "biased bullshit Terran race hate," I play Random, and admittedly Terran is my worst race. But I still enjoy it more than Zerg, and slightly less than Protoss. TvP is my best Terran match up, although that's only at the low-Master level. The sky is not falling. Random Ladder warriors? If this was the case, why do you and so many others feel it necessary to come in here and justify your argument (last time I checked, you aren't a GSL level player)? You can try and argue and justify yourself as much as you want. But it's not new for people to come in and argue a point across just to try and get their MU easier to play. Anyone with half a brain would know that the current state of the Terran race just isn't right. Yeah I'm pretty sure my T v P win ratio would improve as well if I started to all-in every single game. @massivez, it isn't a sudden skill rise of Protosses over the world. LOL. It's just the non-stop Protoss buffs and constant Terran nerfs as of late.
And you're not a GSL level player either...see what I did there? Maybe we're here because this is a discussion board? So what point am I trying to argue to get "my" match up easier to play? Last time I checked I play all 9 match ups.
"Anyone with half a brain would agree with me" is not an argument. You'll need to come up with something better than that. I also like how you assume I all-in every single game just because I play Random. Way to generalize and make yourself look ignorant. I 1 Rax gasless expand every game against Protoss and when I lose, I feel like it's because the other player was better than me.
There is no doubt that there has been a resurgence of Protoss players lately, and I would (generally) attribute it to skill level like the guy you quoted. There were far too many Protosses, foreign and Korean, with crappy force fields, greedy plays, too much reliance on two-base all-ins, etc. etc.. With the emergence of players like Parting and (the new) Genius, we're finally seeing some players using all of the Protoss arsenal. Not enough time has passed to be able to tell if a Protoss using all that is available to him (like Terrans have been doing for a while) is too strong.
The "non-stop" Protoss buffs you are complaining about mainly amounts to the upgrade changes which were pretty minimal in the grand scope of things. Warp Gate timings, Void Rays, and High Templar were all (necessarily) nerfed. Just like Stim timings and Ghosts (the EMP change) were (necessarily) nerfed. You can't list the good nerfs with the bad nerfs and call them all too much.
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On February 21 2012 06:23 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:18 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On February 21 2012 06:09 Kinshuk wrote:
I absolutely love reading all the terrans in here whining about nerfs. There was a time where you didn't even know you had a unit called the ghost and you were doing just fine. Now that you cannot mass ghosts and lolwin anymore might just mean that terrans start finding other ways to deal lategame like they once were. No one will ever be happy with any patch, just make the best of it and look for alternatives instead of bitching. These changes are necessary no matter what you think. Also, if the changes are too strong Blizzard will always revert them, they aren't a bunch of idiots. Look at blizzards other games WoW and WC3 are you trolling? Blizzard only wants to make money and thats it, they care about crap. You know better than this, WoW and WC3 were completely different development teams. People have complained all through SC2's (short) lifespan that Blizzard doesn't listen to the community, and then when they listen to the vocal minority/majority (doesn't matter which) about Ghosts being too strong, they get backlash for it. The fact that they are willing to add more community-made maps and take player feedback into consideration when making balance changes means that they do give a modicum of crap about the balance of their game. Especially since it's in their best interest to have a good product going into HotS and LotV. At this point you're just being bitter.
I think your thinking about it the wrong way... Look, theres a reason Blizzard does what they do, like every other company they want to appease their customers and keep selling product. When the majority of people are concerned about something (IE Terran domination in GSL etc) they will change it.
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On February 21 2012 07:40 xtruder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 05:59 p1cKLes wrote:I know I get frustrated and I’m honestly not trying to QQ here. I just feel like unless you are a Terran Korean GrandMaster your chance of beating protoss is pretty slim and I’m sorry, I would like to have some fun too. We are not all Korean GM’s. I look at the statistics from silver to diamond and Terran is significantly weaker by a fairly big margin. I’ve been playing Terran for the last year and half and I feel like I’ve gotten nowhere with Protoss other than all-in’ing to win and I just refuse to do that. I was platinum and now I’m gold. I’ve beaten platinum and diamond zerg and terran, but can’t beat gold Protoss. I had a moment of weakness yesterday and got so frustrated that I said screw it, I’m switching races and I played Protoss for the first time yesterday with a little help from my buddy telling me some build orders, and…? I beat a platinum terran. Trapped him in a corner with a nice little deathball. Did feedback on his medivacs so he couldn’t fly away and stormed the rest. I even held off a 1/1/1 after the second time from a platinum terran player. My protoss buddy said see how frustrating the 1/1/1 is? I said umm dude, I feel like this every time I play protoss…lol He then asked you think ghost is op now? I said no not really I just spread out my ht’s as if banelings were headed my way so the ones that don’t get hit… “storm” The ones that do archons. Anyways, I’m not giving up. I love playing terran, I just occasionally get so frustrated that I let my anger get the best of me, but I know sooner or later I’ll get better it just takes practice. This is my first RTS ever so I have a feeling that it will take me longer than most. I just hope not too long I placed into Diamond as Terran using a mix of 1-1-1s and 2 raxes. Those were the only 5 games I've played as Terran. Does this mean Terran is OP? No not at all, and I think maybe you missed the overall tone of my post. I’m not saying that Terran is OP or Protoss is OP, but from the statistics and the overall sentiment from the community Terran is a very difficult race to master between silver and diamond, but has a very high skill cap if you can manage to get over that hurdle, but unfortunately not all of us are GSL Korean GrandMasters. I like Terran so I play Terran, and I will continue to do so. Even if that means it takes me another year and half to figure it out. I’ll overcome my own shortcomings I don’t doubt that.
I’m simply saying that I feel like I have to have GSL micro and macro to compete effectively whether that is a true statement or not. It’s definitely my perception and therefore my opinion, but it’s not an opinion that I share alone as you can see from these forums. I’d also add that the statistics indicate this in silver, gold, platinum and diamond, which in the end as my post indicated is completely frustrating and borders on the point of not having fun and that is no good.
So again no, I’m not saying OP at all. I’ll leave that up to the professionals.
And… who knows, maybe my brain just works better with the dynamics of Protoss. Isn’t that what they say? You don’t pick the race the race picks you? I’m just determined SOB and refuse to give up. 
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On February 21 2012 07:59 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:23 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 06:18 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On February 21 2012 06:09 Kinshuk wrote:
I absolutely love reading all the terrans in here whining about nerfs. There was a time where you didn't even know you had a unit called the ghost and you were doing just fine. Now that you cannot mass ghosts and lolwin anymore might just mean that terrans start finding other ways to deal lategame like they once were. No one will ever be happy with any patch, just make the best of it and look for alternatives instead of bitching. These changes are necessary no matter what you think. Also, if the changes are too strong Blizzard will always revert them, they aren't a bunch of idiots. Look at blizzards other games WoW and WC3 are you trolling? Blizzard only wants to make money and thats it, they care about crap. You know better than this, WoW and WC3 were completely different development teams. People have complained all through SC2's (short) lifespan that Blizzard doesn't listen to the community, and then when they listen to the vocal minority/majority (doesn't matter which) about Ghosts being too strong, they get backlash for it. The fact that they are willing to add more community-made maps and take player feedback into consideration when making balance changes means that they do give a modicum of crap about the balance of their game. Especially since it's in their best interest to have a good product going into HotS and LotV. At this point you're just being bitter. I think your thinking about it the wrong way... Look, theres a reason Blizzard does what they do, like every other company they want to make money, theirs nothing wrong with that. How do they do this? 1) They keep having people buy their games. Making the game easier as they've been doing consistently by nerfing micro intensive units/removing units accomplishes this goal. 2) Have people keep playing their games so they buy expansion packs. This means keeping the player base happy, if enough people complain about something then they are going to change it, It just so happens that out of diamond + players (players who I guess play more/care more than lower level players, Terran is not as represented. Coupled with this A LOT of people watch the GSL. No one I know in Masters doesnt watch or at least know about the GSL and what goes on their, and people get VERY frustrated when their is a TVT every other match, hence Blizzard feels the need to do something about it. David Kim the balance designer even said that he was working with GOM to try to make the tournament more evenly balanced among races. Personally, I think this is ridiculous, why should the balance designer of a game tons of people play focus so much of his time and balance around one tournament with a handful of players, not to make the tournament better per say but to make it more evenly distributed in terms of races. Look, after all Blizzard is trying to sell as much product as they can and I guess they should be like every other company, I just disagree with people who naively say Blizzard is "working for the players and trying to appease everybody."
Do you have a source for any of this? And you just said they're trying to appease everybody (or at least the casual majority) by making the game easier, but that people are naive for thinking Blizzard is working to appease everybody.
It really just comes off as conspiracy theory.
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I find it hilarious how just 6 months ago people were like "LOL DAVID KIM WEARS A TERRAN T-SHIRT HE HATES ZERG THIS IS OBVIOUS OPEN YOUR EYES PEONS".
I guess we're back to a lot of 2 raxing and funky all ins, fuck yeah.
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On February 21 2012 08:24 EmilA wrote:
I find it hilarious how just 6 months ago people were like "LOL DAVID KIM WEARS A TERRAN T-SHIRT HE HATES ZERG THIS IS OBVIOUS OPEN YOUR EYES PEONS".
I guess we're back to a lot of 2 raxing and funky all ins, fuck yeah.
I didn't realize you ever stopped.
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On February 21 2012 07:56 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:38 fiveohfive wrote:On February 21 2012 07:19 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 07:01 fiveohfive wrote:On February 21 2012 05:18 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 05:11 [Azn]Nada wrote:
Let's break this down. Essentially, the TvZ metagame atm consists of zerg using their LOL-macro to make 14 drones whenever not being attacked, and terran, with their beautiful 2 scv pump (with an occassional mule), falling rediculously behind in economy. Terrans then must desperately harass the zerg (ie with gimmicky hellion drops), in a desperate hope to keep the zerg from easily running away in the econ game. Zerg can reach 70 workers in ~ 10 minutes (See idra games), while terran will be lucky to hit 70 workers after 25 minutes.
So this patch doesn't have THAT much of an effect on the game. Either the terran gets lucky with his gimmicky drops, kills tons of drones, and wins midgame, or loses lategame anyways to 5 base-70 drone zergs. All this patch does is guarantee that once zerg T-3 comes out with broodlords and infesters, the newly double-nerfed ghost will do absolutely jack shit, and the terran essentially rolls over and dies.
Legit, at this point, terrans should just gg upon scanning a greater spire. Corruptors literally ass-rape vikings (200 hp to 125, yea good luck LOL), especially with fungals everywhere, and aint no shit in the world gonna stop broodlords now.
I predict zergs will still be unhappy, quoting win ratios that are 6 months old or derived from a signle tournument. Please check out Husky Starcraft if you want to see zerg win - a terran hasn't won a TvZ series on his channel in around 7 months now. I'm decently sure zergs however will continue to bitch, though I do look forward to what unit Blizzard will nerf next.
The list of terran units nerfed are as following: Vikings (twice), SCV (once), marines (stim nerfed), marauders (once), Medivacs (twice), ghosts (three times), siege tanks (twice), hellions (three times). Barracks (twice), bunkers (twice) Legit, what else in the terran arsenal the zerg wants to nerf? Battlecrusiers? Ravens? The only units the zerg is OK with terran using seem to the units that are so bad they are NEVER used in competitive play.
I look forward to the day where zerg begins to petition for supply depots to cost 200 minerals.
I'd like to state that 90% of the above writing is facts, so please don't consider this whining and bitching.
Finally, I'd like to tell terrans to calm down. Essentially TvZ late game was like climbing a near vertical wall on your bare hands, but know its literally vertical so you don't even need to try and get your hands damaged. This really is a change for the better No, it's definitely whining and bitching. I take it you don't watch the GSL? Where TvZ at the highest level is still relatively even, maybe even favoring the Terran a little bit? I realize this is not necessarily reflective of the level you play at (Bronze), but stating that Terrans cannot win is blatantly false. Good players will learn to adapt. Or, Blizzard will realize the nerf is too large and reverse it. Either way complaining doesn't really accomplish anything. I'm just getting sick and tired of reading posts like these ^^^ Could you just stop and think? Ever thought, maybe... just MAYBE those Terrans at GSL level such as MMA, MVP and Jjakji are just GOOD and TALENTED players? It just frustrates the hell out of me when a Pro Terran seems to do so well and people automatically think, "Yep, gotta nerf that unit!" I think it's a complete cop out for Zerg and Protoss players to say to Terrans, "your just not good enough!" Yeah, Some Terrans in Code S are probably doing well, but you look at the rest of the Terrans from GM to Gold including foreign Pro's and tell me there isn't anything wrong! It's just like me saying to all the Zergs out there to harden the f^$k up because Nestea was doing so well in the GSL, back in the days when they all thought they were so underpowered. Or maybe tell Protoss to just deal with it because of MC's GSL success a while ago. I invite you to try viewing any Terran stream to the right of this post and see who many Terrans currently win late-game T v P (close to NIL). Now, put your biased bullshit Terran race hate aside and stop crying out for nerfs that aren't needed! I just really hope T v Z doesn't follow in the same direction as the T v P mu. Terrans are really starting to run out of options as to what units they can actually use. What does Blizzard want us to do? Make marines only? Even those are utter dog shit late-game. I did stop and think. Did you? Nowhere did I say that MVP/MMA/Jjakji aren't good and are being carried by overpowered unit X. I never called for a Ghost nerf because I thought the unit was fine. But then again I'm not a progamer or a developer. It could be said that just like Korean Terrans are really good, most foreign Terrans are really bad. ThorZain is really the only foreign Terran that has shown any sustained success. But that's beside the point. They ended up putting through a Ghost nerf, whether it was justifiable or not, and the post that I quoted was most certainly bitching about it. If you are a professional player (like beastyqt) I could see being upset about a major change like this, because it directly relates to his bottom line and livelihood. But random ladder warriors raging about a change they have absolutely no influence over just makes me laugh. Good players will adapt, even if the change didn't make sense to begin with. And your "learn to play!" analogy is funny because many people were claiming Zerg was fine, quoting NesTea's successes. Many people were also claiming that Protoss was fine, quoting MC's successes. Now you get many people saying Terran was fine because of how well Korean Terrans continue to do. Whether any of these groups were right or wrong is subjective, but I think it's funny you pretended like it didn't happen. And as for your claim that I have "biased bullshit Terran race hate," I play Random, and admittedly Terran is my worst race. But I still enjoy it more than Zerg, and slightly less than Protoss. TvP is my best Terran match up, although that's only at the low-Master level. The sky is not falling. Random Ladder warriors? If this was the case, why do you and so many others feel it necessary to come in here and justify your argument (last time I checked, you aren't a GSL level player)? You can try and argue and justify yourself as much as you want. But it's not new for people to come in and argue a point across just to try and get their MU easier to play. Anyone with half a brain would know that the current state of the Terran race just isn't right. Yeah I'm pretty sure my T v P win ratio would improve as well if I started to all-in every single game. @massivez, it isn't a sudden skill rise of Protosses over the world. LOL. It's just the non-stop Protoss buffs and constant Terran nerfs as of late. And you're not a GSL level player either...see what I did there? Maybe we're here because this is a discussion board? So what point am I trying to argue to get "my" match up easier to play? Last time I checked I play all 9 match ups. "Anyone with half a brain would agree with me" is not an argument. You'll need to come up with something better than that. I also like how you assume I all-in every single game just because I play Random. Way to generalize and make yourself look ignorant. I 1 Rax gasless expand every game against Protoss and when I lose, I feel like it's because the other player was better than me. There is no doubt that there has been a resurgence of Protoss players lately, and I would (generally) attribute it to skill level like the guy you quoted. There were far too many Protosses, foreign and Korean, with crappy force fields, greedy plays, too much reliance on two-base all-ins, etc. etc.. With the emergence of players like Parting and (the new) Genius, we're finally seeing some players using all of the Protoss arsenal. Not enough time has passed to be able to tell if a Protoss using all that is available to him (like Terrans have been doing for a while) is too strong. The "non-stop" Protoss buffs you are complaining about mainly amounts to the upgrade changes which were pretty minimal in the grand scope of things. Warp Gate timings, Void Rays, and High Templar were all (necessarily) nerfed. Just like Stim timings and Ghosts (the EMP change) were (necessarily) nerfed. You can't list the good nerfs with the bad nerfs and call them all too much.
"And you're not a GSL level player either...see what I did there?"
WTF? Thats just what I just pointed out to you in my last post! Why practically repeat what I just said to you? Go read your first post please. /facepalm
I said, "Anyone with half a brain would know that the current state of the Terran race just isn't right."
You claim I said, "Anyone with half a brain would agree with me"....... please don't try and put words into my mouth :s
You seem to think I am personally attacking you because I said my T v P win rate would improve too if I started to all-in all of my games. Hello!?!?!?! Currently, most Terrans are doing this to win! This is the point I am trying to make and so many other Terrans! It's the LATE GAME THAT IS THE PROBLEM!
All of a sudden it feels like I'm talking to a brick wall......
Everyone has bought up the possbility of utilising the Raven more. For this to happen I believe the unit needs some kind of buff or change. I dunno make it so that it can't be feedbacked? Or increase the movement speed? Decrease the energy cost? Who knows what change needs to be done. But I think most Terrans know the current state of the Raven isn't exactly a reliable tool.
EDIT: My friend, I want you to read this sentence 3 times over.
"Not enough time has passed to be able to tell if a Protoss using all that is available to him (like Terrans have been doing for a while) is too strong."
Do you realise what you just said? At least we both have an agreeance here.
The cup is half full.
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On February 21 2012 08:38 fiveohfive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:56 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 07:38 fiveohfive wrote:On February 21 2012 07:19 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 07:01 fiveohfive wrote:On February 21 2012 05:18 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 05:11 [Azn]Nada wrote:
Let's break this down. Essentially, the TvZ metagame atm consists of zerg using their LOL-macro to make 14 drones whenever not being attacked, and terran, with their beautiful 2 scv pump (with an occassional mule), falling rediculously behind in economy. Terrans then must desperately harass the zerg (ie with gimmicky hellion drops), in a desperate hope to keep the zerg from easily running away in the econ game. Zerg can reach 70 workers in ~ 10 minutes (See idra games), while terran will be lucky to hit 70 workers after 25 minutes.
So this patch doesn't have THAT much of an effect on the game. Either the terran gets lucky with his gimmicky drops, kills tons of drones, and wins midgame, or loses lategame anyways to 5 base-70 drone zergs. All this patch does is guarantee that once zerg T-3 comes out with broodlords and infesters, the newly double-nerfed ghost will do absolutely jack shit, and the terran essentially rolls over and dies.
Legit, at this point, terrans should just gg upon scanning a greater spire. Corruptors literally ass-rape vikings (200 hp to 125, yea good luck LOL), especially with fungals everywhere, and aint no shit in the world gonna stop broodlords now.
I predict zergs will still be unhappy, quoting win ratios that are 6 months old or derived from a signle tournument. Please check out Husky Starcraft if you want to see zerg win - a terran hasn't won a TvZ series on his channel in around 7 months now. I'm decently sure zergs however will continue to bitch, though I do look forward to what unit Blizzard will nerf next.
The list of terran units nerfed are as following: Vikings (twice), SCV (once), marines (stim nerfed), marauders (once), Medivacs (twice), ghosts (three times), siege tanks (twice), hellions (three times). Barracks (twice), bunkers (twice) Legit, what else in the terran arsenal the zerg wants to nerf? Battlecrusiers? Ravens? The only units the zerg is OK with terran using seem to the units that are so bad they are NEVER used in competitive play.
I look forward to the day where zerg begins to petition for supply depots to cost 200 minerals.
I'd like to state that 90% of the above writing is facts, so please don't consider this whining and bitching.
Finally, I'd like to tell terrans to calm down. Essentially TvZ late game was like climbing a near vertical wall on your bare hands, but know its literally vertical so you don't even need to try and get your hands damaged. This really is a change for the better No, it's definitely whining and bitching. I take it you don't watch the GSL? Where TvZ at the highest level is still relatively even, maybe even favoring the Terran a little bit? I realize this is not necessarily reflective of the level you play at (Bronze), but stating that Terrans cannot win is blatantly false. Good players will learn to adapt. Or, Blizzard will realize the nerf is too large and reverse it. Either way complaining doesn't really accomplish anything. I'm just getting sick and tired of reading posts like these ^^^ Could you just stop and think? Ever thought, maybe... just MAYBE those Terrans at GSL level such as MMA, MVP and Jjakji are just GOOD and TALENTED players? It just frustrates the hell out of me when a Pro Terran seems to do so well and people automatically think, "Yep, gotta nerf that unit!" I think it's a complete cop out for Zerg and Protoss players to say to Terrans, "your just not good enough!" Yeah, Some Terrans in Code S are probably doing well, but you look at the rest of the Terrans from GM to Gold including foreign Pro's and tell me there isn't anything wrong! It's just like me saying to all the Zergs out there to harden the f^$k up because Nestea was doing so well in the GSL, back in the days when they all thought they were so underpowered. Or maybe tell Protoss to just deal with it because of MC's GSL success a while ago. I invite you to try viewing any Terran stream to the right of this post and see who many Terrans currently win late-game T v P (close to NIL). Now, put your biased bullshit Terran race hate aside and stop crying out for nerfs that aren't needed! I just really hope T v Z doesn't follow in the same direction as the T v P mu. Terrans are really starting to run out of options as to what units they can actually use. What does Blizzard want us to do? Make marines only? Even those are utter dog shit late-game. I did stop and think. Did you? Nowhere did I say that MVP/MMA/Jjakji aren't good and are being carried by overpowered unit X. I never called for a Ghost nerf because I thought the unit was fine. But then again I'm not a progamer or a developer. It could be said that just like Korean Terrans are really good, most foreign Terrans are really bad. ThorZain is really the only foreign Terran that has shown any sustained success. But that's beside the point. They ended up putting through a Ghost nerf, whether it was justifiable or not, and the post that I quoted was most certainly bitching about it. If you are a professional player (like beastyqt) I could see being upset about a major change like this, because it directly relates to his bottom line and livelihood. But random ladder warriors raging about a change they have absolutely no influence over just makes me laugh. Good players will adapt, even if the change didn't make sense to begin with. And your "learn to play!" analogy is funny because many people were claiming Zerg was fine, quoting NesTea's successes. Many people were also claiming that Protoss was fine, quoting MC's successes. Now you get many people saying Terran was fine because of how well Korean Terrans continue to do. Whether any of these groups were right or wrong is subjective, but I think it's funny you pretended like it didn't happen. And as for your claim that I have "biased bullshit Terran race hate," I play Random, and admittedly Terran is my worst race. But I still enjoy it more than Zerg, and slightly less than Protoss. TvP is my best Terran match up, although that's only at the low-Master level. The sky is not falling. Random Ladder warriors? If this was the case, why do you and so many others feel it necessary to come in here and justify your argument (last time I checked, you aren't a GSL level player)? You can try and argue and justify yourself as much as you want. But it's not new for people to come in and argue a point across just to try and get their MU easier to play. Anyone with half a brain would know that the current state of the Terran race just isn't right. Yeah I'm pretty sure my T v P win ratio would improve as well if I started to all-in every single game. @massivez, it isn't a sudden skill rise of Protosses over the world. LOL. It's just the non-stop Protoss buffs and constant Terran nerfs as of late. And you're not a GSL level player either...see what I did there? Maybe we're here because this is a discussion board? So what point am I trying to argue to get "my" match up easier to play? Last time I checked I play all 9 match ups. "Anyone with half a brain would agree with me" is not an argument. You'll need to come up with something better than that. I also like how you assume I all-in every single game just because I play Random. Way to generalize and make yourself look ignorant. I 1 Rax gasless expand every game against Protoss and when I lose, I feel like it's because the other player was better than me. There is no doubt that there has been a resurgence of Protoss players lately, and I would (generally) attribute it to skill level like the guy you quoted. There were far too many Protosses, foreign and Korean, with crappy force fields, greedy plays, too much reliance on two-base all-ins, etc. etc.. With the emergence of players like Parting and (the new) Genius, we're finally seeing some players using all of the Protoss arsenal. Not enough time has passed to be able to tell if a Protoss using all that is available to him (like Terrans have been doing for a while) is too strong. The "non-stop" Protoss buffs you are complaining about mainly amounts to the upgrade changes which were pretty minimal in the grand scope of things. Warp Gate timings, Void Rays, and High Templar were all (necessarily) nerfed. Just like Stim timings and Ghosts (the EMP change) were (necessarily) nerfed. You can't list the good nerfs with the bad nerfs and call them all too much. "And you're not a GSL level player either...see what I did there?" WTF? Thats just what I just pointed out to you in my last post! Why practically repeat what I just said to you? Go read your first post please. /facepalm I said, "Anyone with half a brain would know that the current state of the Terran race just isn't right." You claim I said, "Anyone with half a brain would agree with me"....... please don't try and put words into my mouth :s You seem to think I am personally attacking you because I said my T v P win rate would improve too if I started to all-in all of my games. Hello!?!?!?! Currently, most Terrans are doing this to win! This is the point I am trying to make and so many other Terrans! It's the LATE GAME THAT IS THE PROBLEM! All of a sudden it feels like I'm talking to a brick wall...... Everyone has bought up the possbility of utilising the Raven more. For this to happen I believe the unit needs some kind of buff or change. I dunno make it so that it can't be feedbacked? Or increase the movement speed? Decrease the energy cost? Who knows what change needs to be done. But I think most Terrans know the current state of the Raven isn't exactly a reliable tool. EDIT: My friend, I want you to read this sentence 3 times over. "Not enough time has passed to be able to tell if a Protoss using all that is available to him (like Terrans have been doing for a while) is too strong." Do you realise what you just said? At least we both have an agreeance here. The cup is half full.
Yes I realize what I said, that's why I said it. I never advocated that Terran was too strong, even when Korean Terrans were absolutely dominating. It was clear that players like MVP and MMA were at a level of multitasking that no other player, Terran or not, was capable of. Players from other races (DongRaeGu, Parting, Genius, Oz, etc.) are starting to play Zerg and Protoss well (finally). We need more time before we can say 100% for sure that Protoss and Zerg, played well is stronger than Terran played well. Because in the end, that's really all that matters (at least for the pro scene).
And you bolded my sentence where I said TvP was my best T MU and then went on to say that your WR would improve as well if you all-inned every TvP. I took that to mean you thought I was doing the same. Regardless of what you meant, it's not really the point.
I didn't put words in your mouth. You clearly think something is wrong with the Terran race. You're entitled to that opinion. I'm entitled to disagree with you. But saying that everyone with half a brain should agree with you (that is what you were saying, whether with those words or not) is asinine. It's not an argument, it's by definition the lack of an argument. You need to explain to those of us with less than half a brain why there is something wrong with Terran besides quoting mediocre foreigner progamers. But you've listed your concerns, I was merely poking at your statement about people with half a brain.
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Fuck blizzard. They don't give a shit about us Terrans, nerfing us every single chance they get. Every single successive season, Terran has been getting the short end of the stick, whether it is with bigger, Zerg-favored maps or stupid nerfs. Seriously, I'm done with this shit. Yea, I'm raging cause i'm on a huge losing streak, but still, fuck you blizzard.
User was warned for this post
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On February 21 2012 08:10 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:59 Raambo11 wrote:On February 21 2012 06:23 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 06:18 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On February 21 2012 06:09 Kinshuk wrote:
I absolutely love reading all the terrans in here whining about nerfs. There was a time where you didn't even know you had a unit called the ghost and you were doing just fine. Now that you cannot mass ghosts and lolwin anymore might just mean that terrans start finding other ways to deal lategame like they once were. No one will ever be happy with any patch, just make the best of it and look for alternatives instead of bitching. These changes are necessary no matter what you think. Also, if the changes are too strong Blizzard will always revert them, they aren't a bunch of idiots. Look at blizzards other games WoW and WC3 are you trolling? Blizzard only wants to make money and thats it, they care about crap. You know better than this, WoW and WC3 were completely different development teams. People have complained all through SC2's (short) lifespan that Blizzard doesn't listen to the community, and then when they listen to the vocal minority/majority (doesn't matter which) about Ghosts being too strong, they get backlash for it. The fact that they are willing to add more community-made maps and take player feedback into consideration when making balance changes means that they do give a modicum of crap about the balance of their game. Especially since it's in their best interest to have a good product going into HotS and LotV. At this point you're just being bitter. I think your thinking about it the wrong way... Look, theres a reason Blizzard does what they do, like every other company they want to make money, theirs nothing wrong with that. How do they do this? 1) They keep having people buy their games. Making the game easier as they've been doing consistently by nerfing micro intensive units/removing units accomplishes this goal. 2) Have people keep playing their games so they buy expansion packs. This means keeping the player base happy, if enough people complain about something then they are going to change it, It just so happens that out of diamond + players (players who I guess play more/care more than lower level players, Terran is not as represented. Coupled with this A LOT of people watch the GSL. No one I know in Masters doesnt watch or at least know about the GSL and what goes on their, and people get VERY frustrated when their is a TVT every other match, hence Blizzard feels the need to do something about it. David Kim the balance designer even said that he was working with GOM to try to make the tournament more evenly balanced among races. Personally, I think this is ridiculous, why should the balance designer of a game tons of people play focus so much of his time and balance around one tournament with a handful of players, not to make the tournament better per say but to make it more evenly distributed in terms of races. Look, after all Blizzard is trying to sell as much product as they can and I guess they should be like every other company, I just disagree with people who naively say Blizzard is "working for the players and trying to appease everybody." Do you have a source for any of this? And you just said they're trying to appease everybody (or at least the casual majority) by making the game easier, but that people are naive for thinking Blizzard is working to appease everybody. It really just comes off as conspiracy theory.
I kind of figured it would come off this way, that was not my intention however. All im saying is Blizzard is doing what any company does to make money, and thats sell more product. Thats basically the essence of what I was trying to get across, and that by doing this they affect the game in other ways.
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On February 18 2012 12:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
--------- So they release the patch 1 day before Assembly AND MLG? Are they... I dont know, retarded?
I don't get why it would have been so hard to wait 2 days to release a patch. It's not like a month long GSL tourney or anything.
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On February 21 2012 11:55 kofman wrote:
Fuck blizzard. They don't give a shit about us Terrans, nerfing us every single chance they get. Every single successive season, Terran has been getting the short end of the stick, whether it is with bigger, Zerg-favored maps or stupid nerfs. Seriously, I'm done with this shit. Yea, I'm raging cause i'm on a huge losing streak, but still, fuck you blizzard.
User was warned for this post
Even though he was warned, I agree with him fully. Ghosts and tanks have been molested into the ground. And the matchup is not only not T favored, but OP for zerg. Infestor muta broodlord????? none of it gets touched yet we get a snipe nerf? Cmon........Starting to think this has to do with a hots release date coming soon and wanting to have ppl jump on the zerg bandwagon coz this is rediculous. If you can't see the problem with muta/bl/infestor, yet you think snipe is a problem???? This just doesn't make sense in my brain. When I first saw the patch preview on the side bar I was like " Yes!!! Finally they are gonna do something about this bullshit muta/infestor/bl combo. Only to open the link and see mule and snipe nerf, at that moment my brain just turned off.
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It's no problem guys. Just don't download the patch and play on laa..... oh wait.
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On February 21 2012 13:14 Arkless wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 11:55 kofman wrote:
Fuck blizzard. They don't give a shit about us Terrans, nerfing us every single chance they get. Every single successive season, Terran has been getting the short end of the stick, whether it is with bigger, Zerg-favored maps or stupid nerfs. Seriously, I'm done with this shit. Yea, I'm raging cause i'm on a huge losing streak, but still, fuck you blizzard.
User was warned for this post Even though he was warned, I agree with him fully. Ghosts and tanks have been molested into the ground. And the matchup is not only not T favored, but OP for zerg. Infestor muta broodlord????? none of it gets touched yet we get a snipe nerf? Cmon........Starting to think this has to do with a hots release date coming soon and wanting to have ppl jump on the zerg bandwagon coz this is rediculous. If you can't see the problem with muta/bl/infestor, yet you think snipe is a problem???? This just doesn't make sense in my brain. When I first saw the patch preview on the side bar I was like " Yes!!! Finally they are gonna do something about this bullshit muta/infestor/bl combo. Only to open the link and see mule and snipe nerf, at that moment my brain just turned off.
there could be a coincidence between terran nerfs and terran having higher winrates on the highest level of play? i know it normalized in the last few months but most nerfs were needed.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 21 2012 07:38 fiveohfive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:19 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 07:01 fiveohfive wrote:On February 21 2012 05:18 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 05:11 [Azn]Nada wrote:
Let's break this down. Essentially, the TvZ metagame atm consists of zerg using their LOL-macro to make 14 drones whenever not being attacked, and terran, with their beautiful 2 scv pump (with an occassional mule), falling rediculously behind in economy. Terrans then must desperately harass the zerg (ie with gimmicky hellion drops), in a desperate hope to keep the zerg from easily running away in the econ game. Zerg can reach 70 workers in ~ 10 minutes (See idra games), while terran will be lucky to hit 70 workers after 25 minutes.
So this patch doesn't have THAT much of an effect on the game. Either the terran gets lucky with his gimmicky drops, kills tons of drones, and wins midgame, or loses lategame anyways to 5 base-70 drone zergs. All this patch does is guarantee that once zerg T-3 comes out with broodlords and infesters, the newly double-nerfed ghost will do absolutely jack shit, and the terran essentially rolls over and dies.
Legit, at this point, terrans should just gg upon scanning a greater spire. Corruptors literally ass-rape vikings (200 hp to 125, yea good luck LOL), especially with fungals everywhere, and aint no shit in the world gonna stop broodlords now.
I predict zergs will still be unhappy, quoting win ratios that are 6 months old or derived from a signle tournument. Please check out Husky Starcraft if you want to see zerg win - a terran hasn't won a TvZ series on his channel in around 7 months now. I'm decently sure zergs however will continue to bitch, though I do look forward to what unit Blizzard will nerf next.
The list of terran units nerfed are as following: Vikings (twice), SCV (once), marines (stim nerfed), marauders (once), Medivacs (twice), ghosts (three times), siege tanks (twice), hellions (three times). Barracks (twice), bunkers (twice) Legit, what else in the terran arsenal the zerg wants to nerf? Battlecrusiers? Ravens? The only units the zerg is OK with terran using seem to the units that are so bad they are NEVER used in competitive play.
I look forward to the day where zerg begins to petition for supply depots to cost 200 minerals.
I'd like to state that 90% of the above writing is facts, so please don't consider this whining and bitching.
Finally, I'd like to tell terrans to calm down. Essentially TvZ late game was like climbing a near vertical wall on your bare hands, but know its literally vertical so you don't even need to try and get your hands damaged. This really is a change for the better No, it's definitely whining and bitching. I take it you don't watch the GSL? Where TvZ at the highest level is still relatively even, maybe even favoring the Terran a little bit? I realize this is not necessarily reflective of the level you play at (Bronze), but stating that Terrans cannot win is blatantly false. Good players will learn to adapt. Or, Blizzard will realize the nerf is too large and reverse it. Either way complaining doesn't really accomplish anything. I'm just getting sick and tired of reading posts like these ^^^ Could you just stop and think? Ever thought, maybe... just MAYBE those Terrans at GSL level such as MMA, MVP and Jjakji are just GOOD and TALENTED players? It just frustrates the hell out of me when a Pro Terran seems to do so well and people automatically think, "Yep, gotta nerf that unit!" I think it's a complete cop out for Zerg and Protoss players to say to Terrans, "your just not good enough!" Yeah, Some Terrans in Code S are probably doing well, but you look at the rest of the Terrans from GM to Gold including foreign Pro's and tell me there isn't anything wrong! It's just like me saying to all the Zergs out there to harden the f^$k up because Nestea was doing so well in the GSL, back in the days when they all thought they were so underpowered. Or maybe tell Protoss to just deal with it because of MC's GSL success a while ago. I invite you to try viewing any Terran stream to the right of this post and see who many Terrans currently win late-game T v P (close to NIL). Now, put your biased bullshit Terran race hate aside and stop crying out for nerfs that aren't needed! I just really hope T v Z doesn't follow in the same direction as the T v P mu. Terrans are really starting to run out of options as to what units they can actually use. What does Blizzard want us to do? Make marines only? Even those are utter dog shit late-game. I did stop and think. Did you? Nowhere did I say that MVP/MMA/Jjakji aren't good and are being carried by overpowered unit X. I never called for a Ghost nerf because I thought the unit was fine. But then again I'm not a progamer or a developer. It could be said that just like Korean Terrans are really good, most foreign Terrans are really bad. ThorZain is really the only foreign Terran that has shown any sustained success. But that's beside the point. They ended up putting through a Ghost nerf, whether it was justifiable or not, and the post that I quoted was most certainly bitching about it. If you are a professional player (like beastyqt) I could see being upset about a major change like this, because it directly relates to his bottom line and livelihood. But random ladder warriors raging about a change they have absolutely no influence over just makes me laugh. Good players will adapt, even if the change didn't make sense to begin with. And your "learn to play!" analogy is funny because many people were claiming Zerg was fine, quoting NesTea's successes. Many people were also claiming that Protoss was fine, quoting MC's successes. Now you get many people saying Terran was fine because of how well Korean Terrans continue to do. Whether any of these groups were right or wrong is subjective, but I think it's funny you pretended like it didn't happen. And as for your claim that I have "biased bullshit Terran race hate," I play Random, and admittedly Terran is my worst race. But I still enjoy it more than Zerg, and slightly less than Protoss. TvP is my best Terran match up, although that's only at the low-Master level. The sky is not falling. Random Ladder warriors? If this was the case, why do you and so many others feel it necessary to come in here and justify your argument (last time I checked, you aren't a GSL level player)? You can try and argue and justify yourself as much as you want. But it's not new for people to come in and argue a point across just to try and get their MU easier to play. Anyone with half a brain would know that the current state of the Terran race just isn't right. Yeah I'm pretty sure my T v P win ratio would improve as well if I started to all-in every single game. @massivez, it isn't a sudden skill rise of Protosses over the world. LOL. It's just the non-stop Protoss buffs and constant Terran nerfs as of late.
To be honest, I do think protoss stepped it up in terms of builds/gameplay the past X months. Doesn't necessarily mean a skill increase in every single protoss player, but better builds/follow ups is gonna increase level of play anyway.
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On February 21 2012 07:19 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:01 fiveohfive wrote:On February 21 2012 05:18 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 05:11 [Azn]Nada wrote:
Let's break this down. Essentially, the TvZ metagame atm consists of zerg using their LOL-macro to make 14 drones whenever not being attacked, and terran, with their beautiful 2 scv pump (with an occassional mule), falling rediculously behind in economy. Terrans then must desperately harass the zerg (ie with gimmicky hellion drops), in a desperate hope to keep the zerg from easily running away in the econ game. Zerg can reach 70 workers in ~ 10 minutes (See idra games), while terran will be lucky to hit 70 workers after 25 minutes.
So this patch doesn't have THAT much of an effect on the game. Either the terran gets lucky with his gimmicky drops, kills tons of drones, and wins midgame, or loses lategame anyways to 5 base-70 drone zergs. All this patch does is guarantee that once zerg T-3 comes out with broodlords and infesters, the newly double-nerfed ghost will do absolutely jack shit, and the terran essentially rolls over and dies.
Legit, at this point, terrans should just gg upon scanning a greater spire. Corruptors literally ass-rape vikings (200 hp to 125, yea good luck LOL), especially with fungals everywhere, and aint no shit in the world gonna stop broodlords now.
I predict zergs will still be unhappy, quoting win ratios that are 6 months old or derived from a signle tournument. Please check out Husky Starcraft if you want to see zerg win - a terran hasn't won a TvZ series on his channel in around 7 months now. I'm decently sure zergs however will continue to bitch, though I do look forward to what unit Blizzard will nerf next.
The list of terran units nerfed are as following: Vikings (twice), SCV (once), marines (stim nerfed), marauders (once), Medivacs (twice), ghosts (three times), siege tanks (twice), hellions (three times). Barracks (twice), bunkers (twice) Legit, what else in the terran arsenal the zerg wants to nerf? Battlecrusiers? Ravens? The only units the zerg is OK with terran using seem to the units that are so bad they are NEVER used in competitive play.
I look forward to the day where zerg begins to petition for supply depots to cost 200 minerals.
I'd like to state that 90% of the above writing is facts, so please don't consider this whining and bitching.
Finally, I'd like to tell terrans to calm down. Essentially TvZ late game was like climbing a near vertical wall on your bare hands, but know its literally vertical so you don't even need to try and get your hands damaged. This really is a change for the better No, it's definitely whining and bitching. I take it you don't watch the GSL? Where TvZ at the highest level is still relatively even, maybe even favoring the Terran a little bit? I realize this is not necessarily reflective of the level you play at (Bronze), but stating that Terrans cannot win is blatantly false. Good players will learn to adapt. Or, Blizzard will realize the nerf is too large and reverse it. Either way complaining doesn't really accomplish anything. I'm just getting sick and tired of reading posts like these ^^^ Could you just stop and think? Ever thought, maybe... just MAYBE those Terrans at GSL level such as MMA, MVP and Jjakji are just GOOD and TALENTED players? It just frustrates the hell out of me when a Pro Terran seems to do so well and people automatically think, "Yep, gotta nerf that unit!" I think it's a complete cop out for Zerg and Protoss players to say to Terrans, "your just not good enough!" Yeah, Some Terrans in Code S are probably doing well, but you look at the rest of the Terrans from GM to Gold including foreign Pro's and tell me there isn't anything wrong! It's just like me saying to all the Zergs out there to harden the f^$k up because Nestea was doing so well in the GSL, back in the days when they all thought they were so underpowered. Or maybe tell Protoss to just deal with it because of MC's GSL success a while ago. I invite you to try viewing any Terran stream to the right of this post and see who many Terrans currently win late-game T v P (close to NIL). Now, put your biased bullshit Terran race hate aside and stop crying out for nerfs that aren't needed! I just really hope T v Z doesn't follow in the same direction as the T v P mu. Terrans are really starting to run out of options as to what units they can actually use. What does Blizzard want us to do? Make marines only? Even those are utter dog shit late-game. I did stop and think. Did you? Nowhere did I say that MVP/MMA/Jjakji aren't good and are being carried by overpowered unit X. I never called for a Ghost nerf because I thought the unit was fine. But then again I'm not a progamer or a developer. It could be said that just like Korean Terrans are really good, most foreign Terrans are really bad. ThorZain is really the only foreign Terran that has shown any sustained success. But that's beside the point. They ended up putting through a Ghost nerf, whether it was justifiable or not, and the post that I quoted was most certainly bitching about it. If you are a professional player (like beastyqt) I could see being upset about a major change like this, because it directly relates to his bottom line and livelihood. But random ladder warriors raging about a change they have absolutely no influence over just makes me laugh. Good players will adapt, even if the change didn't make sense to begin with. And your "learn to play!" analogy is funny because many people were claiming Zerg was fine, quoting NesTea's successes. Many people were also claiming that Protoss was fine, quoting MC's successes. Now you get many people saying Terran was fine because of how well Korean Terrans continue to do. Whether any of these groups were right or wrong is subjective, but I think it's funny you pretended like it didn't happen. And as for your claim that I have "biased bullshit Terran race hate," I play Random, and admittedly Terran is my worst race. But I still enjoy it more than Zerg, and slightly less than Protoss. TvP is my best Terran match up, although that's only at the low-Master level. The sky is not falling.
To counter your previous statements. First, I quote husky as a source, because husky's channel contains mostly FOREIGN games, games outside korea. I did not mention this, but HD also had a 4.5 month span in which no terran won a non-mirror series. These two casts games from nearly every single famous non-korean, and the fact that they can cast a combined some 30 continuous nonmirror series involving terrans in which terran cannot win suggests that OUTSIDE korea, something is horribly wrong. As the person whom you are responding to suggested, OUTSIDE of korea, terran simply is getting wiped off the face of the planet. I remember a several-hundred post thread in which hundreds of people noticed terran disappearing off ladder, and hundreds more saying they switched races and instantly gained 1-2 leagues within days.
While Blizzard should address problems in korea, a good portion of SC2 players are foriegn, and it just kills me to see terran just constantly lose on BOTH of the most popular nonkorean streams.
"It could be said that just like Korean Terrans are really good, most foreign Terrans are really bad. ThorZain is really the only foreign Terran that has shown any sustained success. "
You yourself even realized that the truth of the matter is, foreign terrans are trash these days. The question is, is Blizzard correct to ignore the foreign scene to balance out GSL? That is the central question. My stance is no, because if they do, sc2 will end up like sc1 with no global market. You suggest that this won't effect TvZ too much. What I'm saying, is after watching hundreds of series, TvZ late game is already a rediclous uphill climb for terran, and this essentially kills them. You then try to qualify by saying that oh, blizzard will unnerf it if needed. What I'm saying is that Blizzard is largely ignoring the foreign community, where lategame TvZ is already (as you suggested) super difficult. I am saying they are incorrect to do this, all in hopes of balancing out GSL
I've watched BW for 5.5 years now and I was C+ in 1v1 on iccup, and then Diamond as terran for a while in SC2, before losing interest. So please don't tell me I'm "bronze league". Yes I do know EXACTLY what I'm talking about, for a couple years I spent 8+ hours a day on Starcraft.
As for GSL imbalance, I'd suggest you review the "Elephant in the Room" thread that was posted by a mod a while back. Nestea, the best zerg, was ZERGBONG - the only series he won was against great. MC was known as the SUICIDE toss. 1-9 record in SC1. If you've watched any SC1, ie. with Cholera/etc. you'll begin to realize that the current top Z/P players were literally the WORST of the SC1 group. On the other hand, decent terrans have switched. MVP was 50% in proleague, and beat (in consecutive Bo3 series) Jangbi, Best, Baby. ForGG, I don't even need to say - an MSL win over Flash AND Jaedong in two consecutive best of 5 series. The simple fact is, terrans in korea were better than the top protoss/zerg, and should continue to be better, not be nerfed until their skill has to compensate for terran weakness.
The simple fact is, top terrans in GSL are trained by Boxer, and were better in SC1 by miles. They SHOULD continue to be better in SC2. Their skill overrides imbalance, hence why they win a lot, and Blizzard is essentially nerfing terran until their skill advantage is negated. I'm stating that this is killing the game, as terran outside korea is already a very difficult race to play, and that this is just another wound to an essentially dead animal.
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