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On February 21 2012 05:56 Gingerninja wrote:
Don't HSM destroy all larva at a hatchery? instead of killing the units.. harass the larva? then they can't resupply.
Or would that not work at all? (I don't play terran) take a lot of multi-tasking no doubts, but then pro players should be able to handle it.
Meh.
Hellions do the same thing way quicker and cheaper since larvaes are light.
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On February 21 2012 05:56 Gingerninja wrote:
Don't HSM destroy all larva at a hatchery? instead of killing the units.. harass the larva? then they can't resupply.
Or would that not work at all? (I don't play terran) take a lot of multi-tasking no doubts, but then pro players should be able to handle it.
125 Energy for at best the Larva of 1 Hatch doesn't sound very promising and if i do this on every Hatch how in the world do i defeat the Zerg army with my now useless Ravens ?
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On February 21 2012 05:56 Gingerninja wrote:
Don't HSM destroy all larva at a hatchery? instead of killing the units.. harass the larva? then they can't resupply.
Or would that not work at all? (I don't play terran) take a lot of multi-tasking no doubts, but then pro players should be able to handle it.
The idea is nice, but take into consideration that there are multiple hatches, and even macro hatches, most likely in the main and natural. Having a Raven dedicated to taking out larva would not be worth it, considering the energy build time to get HSM and how costly the Raven is.
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I absolutely love reading all the terrans in here whining about nerfs. There was a time where you didn't even know you had a unit called the ghost and you were doing just fine. Now that you cannot mass ghosts and lolwin anymore might just mean that terrans start finding other ways to deal lategame like they once were. No one will ever be happy with any patch, just make the best of it and look for alternatives instead of bitching. These changes are necessary no matter what you think. Also, if the changes are too strong Blizzard will always revert them, they aren't a bunch of idiots.
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On February 21 2012 06:09 Kinshuk wrote:
I absolutely love reading all the terrans in here whining about nerfs. There was a time where you didn't even know you had a unit called the ghost and you were doing just fine. Now that you cannot mass ghosts and lolwin anymore might just mean that terrans start finding other ways to deal lategame like they once were. No one will ever be happy with any patch, just make the best of it and look for alternatives instead of bitching. These changes are necessary no matter what you think. Also, if the changes are too strong Blizzard will always revert them, they aren't a bunch of idiots.
Why don't you take out Collosus range for 1 season, make Archon nonmassive Unit, and make infestors unable to Fungal growth to stunn? I am sure blizzard will revert them if those won't work very well. Yeah, let those changes happen for 1 Season,. Revert them later. ^^
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On February 21 2012 06:09 Kinshuk wrote:
...if the changes are too strong Blizzard will always revert them, they aren't a bunch of idiots.
Releasing this patch so close to a tournaments?? I don't know, I kinda think they are being idiotic. I remember they delayed a patch once before because of an MLG, why aren't they considering it this time?
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On February 21 2012 06:09 Kinshuk wrote:
I absolutely love reading all the terrans in here whining about nerfs. There was a time where you didn't even know you had a unit called the ghost and you were doing just fine. Now that you cannot mass ghosts and lolwin anymore might just mean that terrans start finding other ways to deal lategame like they once were. No one will ever be happy with any patch, just make the best of it and look for alternatives instead of bitching. These changes are necessary no matter what you think. Also, if the changes are too strong Blizzard will always revert them, they aren't a bunch of idiots.
Look at blizzards other games WoW and WC3 are you trolling?
Blizzard only wants to make money and thats it, they care about crap.
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On February 21 2012 06:09 Kinshuk wrote:
I absolutely love reading all the terrans in here whining about nerfs. There was a time where you didn't even know you had a unit called the ghost and you were doing just fine. Now that you cannot mass ghosts and lolwin anymore might just mean that terrans start finding other ways to deal lategame like they once were. No one will ever be happy with any patch, just make the best of it and look for alternatives instead of bitching. These changes are necessary no matter what you think. Also, if the changes are too strong Blizzard will always revert them, they aren't a bunch of idiots.
Yea, because Terrans are they only ones that complain. Zerg and Protoss don’t complain at all? Don’t get me wrong I’m not for constant QQ’ing. I have my moments when I get frustrated, but seriously Protoss, Zerg and Terran all whine evenly. Not just Terrans.
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On February 21 2012 06:18 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:09 Kinshuk wrote:
I absolutely love reading all the terrans in here whining about nerfs. There was a time where you didn't even know you had a unit called the ghost and you were doing just fine. Now that you cannot mass ghosts and lolwin anymore might just mean that terrans start finding other ways to deal lategame like they once were. No one will ever be happy with any patch, just make the best of it and look for alternatives instead of bitching. These changes are necessary no matter what you think. Also, if the changes are too strong Blizzard will always revert them, they aren't a bunch of idiots. Look at blizzards other games WoW and WC3 are you trolling? Blizzard only wants to make money and thats it, they care about crap.
You know better than this, WoW and WC3 were completely different development teams. People have complained all through SC2's (short) lifespan that Blizzard doesn't listen to the community, and then when they listen to the vocal minority/majority (doesn't matter which) about Ghosts being too strong, they get backlash for it.
The fact that they are willing to add more community-made maps and take player feedback into consideration when making balance changes means that they do give a modicum of crap about the balance of their game. Especially since it's in their best interest to have a good product going into HotS and LotV.
At this point you're just being bitter.
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On February 21 2012 06:09 Kinshuk wrote:
I absolutely love reading all the terrans in here whining about nerfs. There was a time where you didn't even know you had a unit called the ghost and you were doing just fine. Now that you cannot mass ghosts and lolwin anymore might just mean that terrans start finding other ways to deal lategame like they once were. No one will ever be happy with any patch, just make the best of it and look for alternatives instead of bitching. These changes are necessary no matter what you think. Also, if the changes are too strong Blizzard will always revert them, they aren't a bunch of idiots.
Yeah, terrans were doing fine until infestors were buffed lol. David Kim said that they were looking into the Infestor/Broodlord combo back around june before terrans started using ghosts and figured shit out
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On February 21 2012 05:32 VPFaith wrote:
Hi Larva, if Fungal Growth can be dodged, I would not even care about Broodlords. Thanks to instant cast and total stunn for 4 seconds. Really balanced skill-cast I admit. Laugh out Loud.
I don't know how to respond to that. Did you quote the right person? :S
I just talked about a way to mitigate Fungal use when you're going Mass Raven... this obviously is not meant as a replacement for Ghost play, just an explanation of why Infestors don't really counter Mass Raven and why "just fungal NP and Double Seeker Missile" is not realistic.
I honestly think the Ghost Nerf is heinous, but not because of some bullshit TvZ balance whine- the first three things that pop into my head are Marines, Tanks, and Vikings because that's what TvT is repeatedly pounded back down to in every patch (okay, MM Tank sometimes, not much better). The inability to 1 shot basic marines/stimmed up combat shield marines makes me want to shoot myself in the head. Probably three times.
This is a flagrant violation of the law of unintended consequences. I don't even care about sniping Zerg T3, honestly, it's a fine change to the bizarre phenomenon of mass snipe. But I like sniping Mutalisks, Banelings, Roaches if I must, Hydras if they must, Marines, Marauders, Reapers, and Zealots. Edit: Drones and SCVs!! It's fun to do, fun to watch, and it's balanced against all those nonmassive units. But if they go through with the planned changes, it should be renamed whack-a-festor.
It's not "underpowered" it's just boring 
Edit: There was some disagreement about the viability of mousewheel scroll sniping.
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On February 21 2012 06:53 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 05:32 VPFaith wrote:
Hi Larva, if Fungal Growth can be dodged, I would not even care about Broodlords. Thanks to instant cast and total stunn for 4 seconds. Really balanced skill-cast I admit. Laugh out Loud. I don't know how to respond to that. Did you quote the right person? :S I just talked about a way to mitigate Fungal use when you're going Mass Raven... this obviously is not meant as a replacement for Ghost play, just an explanation of why Infestors don't really counter Mass Raven and why "just fungal NP and Double Seeker Missile" is not realistic. I honestly think the Ghost Nerf is heinous, but not because of some bullshit TvZ balance whine- the first three things that pop into my head are Marines, Tanks, and Vikings because that's what TvT is repeatedly pounded back down to in every patch (okay, MM Tank sometimes, not much better). The inability to 1 shot basic marines/stimmed up combat shield marines makes me want to shoot myself in the head. Probably three times. This is a flagrant violation of the law of unintended consequences. I don't even care about sniping Zerg T3, honestly, it's a fine change to the bizarre phenomenon of mass snipe. And it was honestly right about to get retarded because of mouse-wheel sniping. SHEWP PEWP PEWP laser beams kill everything at range. But I like sniping Mutalisks, Banelings, Roaches if I must, Hydras if they must, Marines, Marauders, Reapers, and Zealots. Edit: Drones and SCVs!! It's fun to do, fun to watch, and it's balanced against all those nonmassive units. But if they go through with the planned changes, it should be renamed whack-a-festor. It's not "underpowered" it's just boring
Mousewheel scroll sniping doesn't work very well in real game situations. Why do people continue to spread this misinformation like it's fact?
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On February 21 2012 05:18 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 05:11 [Azn]Nada wrote:
Let's break this down. Essentially, the TvZ metagame atm consists of zerg using their LOL-macro to make 14 drones whenever not being attacked, and terran, with their beautiful 2 scv pump (with an occassional mule), falling rediculously behind in economy. Terrans then must desperately harass the zerg (ie with gimmicky hellion drops), in a desperate hope to keep the zerg from easily running away in the econ game. Zerg can reach 70 workers in ~ 10 minutes (See idra games), while terran will be lucky to hit 70 workers after 25 minutes.
So this patch doesn't have THAT much of an effect on the game. Either the terran gets lucky with his gimmicky drops, kills tons of drones, and wins midgame, or loses lategame anyways to 5 base-70 drone zergs. All this patch does is guarantee that once zerg T-3 comes out with broodlords and infesters, the newly double-nerfed ghost will do absolutely jack shit, and the terran essentially rolls over and dies.
Legit, at this point, terrans should just gg upon scanning a greater spire. Corruptors literally ass-rape vikings (200 hp to 125, yea good luck LOL), especially with fungals everywhere, and aint no shit in the world gonna stop broodlords now.
I predict zergs will still be unhappy, quoting win ratios that are 6 months old or derived from a signle tournument. Please check out Husky Starcraft if you want to see zerg win - a terran hasn't won a TvZ series on his channel in around 7 months now. I'm decently sure zergs however will continue to bitch, though I do look forward to what unit Blizzard will nerf next.
The list of terran units nerfed are as following: Vikings (twice), SCV (once), marines (stim nerfed), marauders (once), Medivacs (twice), ghosts (three times), siege tanks (twice), hellions (three times). Barracks (twice), bunkers (twice) Legit, what else in the terran arsenal the zerg wants to nerf? Battlecrusiers? Ravens? The only units the zerg is OK with terran using seem to the units that are so bad they are NEVER used in competitive play.
I look forward to the day where zerg begins to petition for supply depots to cost 200 minerals.
I'd like to state that 90% of the above writing is facts, so please don't consider this whining and bitching.
Finally, I'd like to tell terrans to calm down. Essentially TvZ late game was like climbing a near vertical wall on your bare hands, but know its literally vertical so you don't even need to try and get your hands damaged. This really is a change for the better No, it's definitely whining and bitching. I take it you don't watch the GSL? Where TvZ at the highest level is still relatively even, maybe even favoring the Terran a little bit? I realize this is not necessarily reflective of the level you play at (Bronze), but stating that Terrans cannot win is blatantly false. Good players will learn to adapt. Or, Blizzard will realize the nerf is too large and reverse it. Either way complaining doesn't really accomplish anything.
I'm just getting sick and tired of reading posts like these ^^^
Could you just stop and think?
Ever thought, maybe... just MAYBE those Terrans at GSL level such as MMA, MVP and Jjakji are just GOOD and TALENTED players? It just frustrates the hell out of me when a Pro Terran seems to do so well and people automatically think, "Yep, gotta nerf that unit!"
I think it's a complete cop out for Zerg and Protoss players to say to Terrans, "your just not good enough!" Yeah, Some Terrans in Code S are probably doing well, but you look at the rest of the Terrans from GM to Gold including foreign Pro's and tell me there isn't anything wrong!
It's just like me saying to all the Zergs out there to harden the f^$k up because Nestea was doing so well in the GSL, back in the days when they all thought they were so underpowered. Or maybe tell Protoss to just deal with it because of MC's GSL success a while ago.
I invite you to try viewing any Terran stream to the right of this post and see how many Terrans currently win late-game T v P (close to NIL). Now, put your biased bullshit Terran race hate aside and stop crying out for nerfs that aren't needed!
I just really hope T v Z doesn't follow in the same direction as the T v P mu.
Terrans are really starting to run out of options as to what units they can actually use. What does Blizzard want us to do? Make marines only? Even those are utter dog shit late-game.
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On February 18 2012 13:07 woody60707 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 13:03 idonthinksobro wrote:
there will always be tournaments when they release a patch so in that regard you cant please everyone.
They could of released it last week, or last month, or delay a week, two weeks, a month. Outside of the GSL there aren't many big tournaments always going on.
Blizzard has actually delayed patches on the KR server before so that at least an entire round of the GSL is played on the same patch, I don't know why they're not doing it on US and EU for that weekend.
I guess we'll go back to pro Terrans complaining that Ling/Infestor/BL is too strong for a few month, like they did before they discovered snipe, and Blizzard will release a blog saying they are 'currently looking at the strength of Ling/Infestor/BL late game vs Terran', then they'll nerf the range on Fungal Growth or BLs in a patch or 2, along with buffing bunkers.
edit: Also expect most TvZ's over the weekends tournaments to feature such popular builds as, 2 port banshee, hellion maruader timings and variations of the 2 rax with SCV pulls. I think Idra will get 11/11'd at least once by every Terran in his group, and TheSTC isn't even at this tournament.
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On February 21 2012 07:03 Eufouria wrote:
I think Idra will get 11/11'd at least once by every Terran in his group, and TheSTC isn't even at this tournament.
Well, in that case, maybe this patch will have its positive entertainment purposes.
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On February 21 2012 07:01 fiveohfive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 05:18 ZasZ. wrote:On February 21 2012 05:11 [Azn]Nada wrote:
Let's break this down. Essentially, the TvZ metagame atm consists of zerg using their LOL-macro to make 14 drones whenever not being attacked, and terran, with their beautiful 2 scv pump (with an occassional mule), falling rediculously behind in economy. Terrans then must desperately harass the zerg (ie with gimmicky hellion drops), in a desperate hope to keep the zerg from easily running away in the econ game. Zerg can reach 70 workers in ~ 10 minutes (See idra games), while terran will be lucky to hit 70 workers after 25 minutes.
So this patch doesn't have THAT much of an effect on the game. Either the terran gets lucky with his gimmicky drops, kills tons of drones, and wins midgame, or loses lategame anyways to 5 base-70 drone zergs. All this patch does is guarantee that once zerg T-3 comes out with broodlords and infesters, the newly double-nerfed ghost will do absolutely jack shit, and the terran essentially rolls over and dies.
Legit, at this point, terrans should just gg upon scanning a greater spire. Corruptors literally ass-rape vikings (200 hp to 125, yea good luck LOL), especially with fungals everywhere, and aint no shit in the world gonna stop broodlords now.
I predict zergs will still be unhappy, quoting win ratios that are 6 months old or derived from a signle tournument. Please check out Husky Starcraft if you want to see zerg win - a terran hasn't won a TvZ series on his channel in around 7 months now. I'm decently sure zergs however will continue to bitch, though I do look forward to what unit Blizzard will nerf next.
The list of terran units nerfed are as following: Vikings (twice), SCV (once), marines (stim nerfed), marauders (once), Medivacs (twice), ghosts (three times), siege tanks (twice), hellions (three times). Barracks (twice), bunkers (twice) Legit, what else in the terran arsenal the zerg wants to nerf? Battlecrusiers? Ravens? The only units the zerg is OK with terran using seem to the units that are so bad they are NEVER used in competitive play.
I look forward to the day where zerg begins to petition for supply depots to cost 200 minerals.
I'd like to state that 90% of the above writing is facts, so please don't consider this whining and bitching.
Finally, I'd like to tell terrans to calm down. Essentially TvZ late game was like climbing a near vertical wall on your bare hands, but know its literally vertical so you don't even need to try and get your hands damaged. This really is a change for the better No, it's definitely whining and bitching. I take it you don't watch the GSL? Where TvZ at the highest level is still relatively even, maybe even favoring the Terran a little bit? I realize this is not necessarily reflective of the level you play at (Bronze), but stating that Terrans cannot win is blatantly false. Good players will learn to adapt. Or, Blizzard will realize the nerf is too large and reverse it. Either way complaining doesn't really accomplish anything. I'm just getting sick and tired of reading posts like these ^^^ Could you just stop and think? Ever thought, maybe... just MAYBE those Terrans at GSL level such as MMA, MVP and Jjakji are just GOOD and TALENTED players? It just frustrates the hell out of me when a Pro Terran seems to do so well and people automatically think, "Yep, gotta nerf that unit!" I think it's a complete cop out for Zerg and Protoss players to say to Terrans, "your just not good enough!" Yeah, Some Terrans in Code S are probably doing well, but you look at the rest of the Terrans from GM to Gold including foreign Pro's and tell me there isn't anything wrong! It's just like me saying to all the Zergs out there to harden the f^$k up because Nestea was doing so well in the GSL, back in the days when they all thought they were so underpowered. Or maybe tell Protoss to just deal with it because of MC's GSL success a while ago. I invite you to try viewing any Terran stream to the right of this post and see who many Terrans currently win late-game T v P (close to NIL). Now, put your biased bullshit Terran race hate aside and stop crying out for nerfs that aren't needed! I just really hope T v Z doesn't follow in the same direction as the T v P mu. Terrans are really starting to run out of options as to what units they can actually use. What does Blizzard want us to do? Make marines only? Even those are utter dog shit late-game.
I did stop and think. Did you? Nowhere did I say that MVP/MMA/Jjakji aren't good and are being carried by overpowered unit X. I never called for a Ghost nerf because I thought the unit was fine. But then again I'm not a progamer or a developer.
It could be said that just like Korean Terrans are really good, most foreign Terrans are really bad. ThorZain is really the only foreign Terran that has shown any sustained success. But that's beside the point. They ended up putting through a Ghost nerf, whether it was justifiable or not, and the post that I quoted was most certainly bitching about it.
If you are a professional player (like beastyqt) I could see being upset about a major change like this, because it directly relates to his bottom line and livelihood. But random ladder warriors raging about a change they have absolutely no influence over just makes me laugh. Good players will adapt, even if the change didn't make sense to begin with.
And your "learn to play!" analogy is funny because many people were claiming Zerg was fine, quoting NesTea's successes. Many people were also claiming that Protoss was fine, quoting MC's successes. Now you get many people saying Terran was fine because of how well Korean Terrans continue to do. Whether any of these groups were right or wrong is subjective, but I think it's funny you pretended like it didn't happen.
And as for your claim that I have "biased bullshit Terran race hate," I play Random, and admittedly Terran is my worst race. But I still enjoy it more than Zerg, and slightly less than Protoss. TvP is my best Terran match up, although that's only at the low-Master level.
The sky is not falling.
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finally the bane of my existence(ghosts) have been toned down to a reasonable but still very powerful level
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France12904 Posts
Don't worry terrans, MarineKing and MMA will find new 1/2 base agressive / all-in builds that work only with GSL level micro!
Seriously though, why the fuck do they patch before assembly/mlg. I wanted Polt to do well
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On February 21 2012 07:19 isleyofthenorth wrote:
finally the bane of my existence(ghosts) have been toned down to a reasonable but still very powerful level
Lol@"reasonable but still very powerful level"
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wait.. I'm a little confused and maybe a bit suspicious.
This patch seems completely out of line with the way Blizzard has been patching SC2 for the last two years.
It's always been a list of changes that are tested out on a PTR for at least a few weeks with constant community feedback and then eventually rolled into the game... I don't remember the exact timing, but I'd say it was at least 1 month from announcement to rollout.
This time the patch was announced Feb 10th and we're having NA rollout on Feb 21st?
11 days between announcement and rollout with no testing?
And these aren't tiny tweaks we're talking about,
we're talking about
A whole new upgrade to increase phoenix range
Massive damage change to Snipe
Changing the mule mechanic in a significant way
If it was early April..I'd say this was an April fool's joke..
but honestly..wth? This entire situation just feels odd.
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EPT
