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On February 20 2012 11:39 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 11:33 BenAD wrote:
Why the week delay for SEA... Not very well thought out.. I'll have to make sure I don't have my client set to NA and just stay on SEA for a week or I can't play in any of the SEA tourneys. Just copy your SC2 client and launch 1 for SEA and the other for NA until the end of the week. not exactly rocket science 
Releasing a patch around the same time isn't rocket science either but yet they haven't been able to do that 
I'll definitely be doing that, but I play in a team league, so if any of my teammates happen to forget, it's going to be a pain.
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Looks like terrans are forced to 2-base all-ins. Lategame vZ and vP are just way too hard to win. :x
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Wow, one day before big tournaments. That's really strange. Sure, due to the high amount of tournaments out there it is impossible to take all tournaments into account, but two of the biggest should in my eyes be considered by Blizzard.
Furthermore they even apologize before doing it, so they know it is not the best way to do it. So the question is, why they doing it anyway...
Well, I hope the best. Maybe I do not see the whole picture.
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On February 20 2012 12:58 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 12:51 IMoperator wrote:On February 20 2012 12:46 Caphe wrote:
People are whining too much about TvZ late game in this upcoming patch. I don't think many TvZ below high Master and GM level can get to very late game where you divide the map and mass ghost vs blord/infestor. Most people don't have the skill to drag it into late game.
Most of my TvZ either end after i got a big 2 base push or got overrun by a mass ling/muta/bane army. We will have to wait to see how the patch perform at pro level before whining.
One thing to note, if you are diamond or below, just opening right, get to two bases, get marines and tank and you can slaughter zergs left and right. I can be said the for the zerg though, get 3 bases, run the Terran army over with one good engagement. Just stop whining and macro better, make less mistake and you can see your win/loss ratio going up by a large margin.
My point being, if you are not high Master/GM. Balance changes are not gonna affect you as much as you thing, things that can really help you is your improvement not some patch changes. Idk what you're talking about, because I'm low/mid masters terran and many zergs I play get ultras or broods around 15-20 minutes which happens quite often. At least you are master. But still, if you have problems dealing with Zerg late game army. I suggest your watch ForGG stream. Hes not a great player as he was in BW, but his style is to avoid late game all together and doing some crazy two bases stuff. My point is, for many whining people here, try to improve yourself and see that actual patch in action before starting to whine . Remember that hellions nerf? People was saying like Hellions are never gonna used again, and see how it is nowadays? Hellions are kind of a must in TvZ early game now.
Man.... The ForGG thing you're talking about... This is the big problem loads of Terrans are "whining" about. We (they, as I've just rage switched to Zerg...) don't want to be limited to stupid 1-2 base timings. Its utterly boring in the long run and it feels like you are abusing the game more than actually playing it.
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On February 20 2012 15:02 DeCoder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 03:25 Tsubbi wrote:terran has not ONCE since the release been below 50% winrate in tvz, despite the many nerfs since release terran always managed to stay on top because they have so many viable tools that they didn't even need to experiment with pre nerfs like 95% of tvz wins come way before ghost even come into play anyways, the effect on winrates will be pretty low imo in a balanced game the winrates should fluctuate around the 50% mark, changing with current trends in playstyle, until now they fluctuated around the 55% mark in favor of terran (see here http://imgur.com/a/hQHYS ) that being said i think terrans should be happy that more vital units to the matchup like hellions are still untouched btw not in the graph yet is the february winrate in korean tvz, which is at 24-11 (68%) currently This. Blizzard sees it as an unfair advantage to terrans and they should fix it before any further tournaments take place, although just one day before is definitelly not ideal.
Well basically you two say, the nerf has no impact, so don't whine. But if it had no impact, that nerfing ghost would make no sense at all. Of course it has an impact and of course a big one. And to make ZvT to a matchup where Terran is just playing against the clock, trying to kill/cripple zerg so hard before broodlords come out, well everyone, playing zerg or terran at least, knows that this is usually not done with a standard macro oriented build. So what we'll have to adapt to? 1base or 2base allins/timings and since 2base timings usually suck hard against zerg (if zerg doesn't play totally weird) we'll go back to 1base stuff much more often, and the crying will start again.
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On February 20 2012 13:27 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 12:58 Caphe wrote:On February 20 2012 12:51 IMoperator wrote:On February 20 2012 12:46 Caphe wrote:
People are whining too much about TvZ late game in this upcoming patch. I don't think many TvZ below high Master and GM level can get to very late game where you divide the map and mass ghost vs blord/infestor. Most people don't have the skill to drag it into late game.
Most of my TvZ either end after i got a big 2 base push or got overrun by a mass ling/muta/bane army. We will have to wait to see how the patch perform at pro level before whining.
One thing to note, if you are diamond or below, just opening right, get to two bases, get marines and tank and you can slaughter zergs left and right. I can be said the for the zerg though, get 3 bases, run the Terran army over with one good engagement. Just stop whining and macro better, make less mistake and you can see your win/loss ratio going up by a large margin.
My point being, if you are not high Master/GM. Balance changes are not gonna affect you as much as you thing, things that can really help you is your improvement not some patch changes. Idk what you're talking about, because I'm low/mid masters terran and many zergs I play get ultras or broods around 15-20 minutes which happens quite often. At least you are master. But still, if you have problems dealing with Zerg late game army. I suggest your watch ForGG stream. Hes not a great player as he was in BW, but his style is to avoid late game all together and doing some crazy two bases stuff. My point is, for many whining people here, try to improve yourself and see that actual patch in action before starting to whine . Remember that hellions nerf? People was saying like Hellions are never gonna used again, and see how it is nowadays? Hellions are kind of a must in TvZ early game now. Oh great the old "Late game isn't broken just all in" argument. My favorite. Also people said after the BFH nerf that you wouldn't see BFH anymore TvZ. How often do you see them? Hardly ever. You see between 4-6 hellions in a normal TvZ.
I don't know about you, but I see only regular red flame hellions.
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4713 Posts
The only time I see BFH now a days is when someone is going mech, outside of that it has no use.
Anyway I'm done trying to argue how severe and ridiculous this nerf is, because people are either hugely biased terran haters, or they are really ignorant people who see MVP execute his mass snipe technique and think any and every terran can do it to the point where it is common.
I'll let the patch speak for itself, people will understand in 1-2 months time.
The timing of the patch is both clever and stupid.
Clever for Blizz, because they get a glimpse of how this change will work in the upcoming tournaments. But stupid for all the players participating, from whom money is on the line and they probably hate being Blizzard's guinea pigs with stakes this high.
It is also quite likely that, people knowing how bad the late game is going to be for them, will just resort to timing attacks before the late game, and Blizz will get no data at all, it might be months until we see how bad it really is.
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I don't mind it. But the MLG timing and ASUS is pretty annoying.
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Russian Federation676 Posts
im toss but tvz will be a joke
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On February 20 2012 12:58 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 12:51 IMoperator wrote:On February 20 2012 12:46 Caphe wrote:
People are whining too much about TvZ late game in this upcoming patch. I don't think many TvZ below high Master and GM level can get to very late game where you divide the map and mass ghost vs blord/infestor. Most people don't have the skill to drag it into late game.
Most of my TvZ either end after i got a big 2 base push or got overrun by a mass ling/muta/bane army. We will have to wait to see how the patch perform at pro level before whining.
One thing to note, if you are diamond or below, just opening right, get to two bases, get marines and tank and you can slaughter zergs left and right. I can be said the for the zerg though, get 3 bases, run the Terran army over with one good engagement. Just stop whining and macro better, make less mistake and you can see your win/loss ratio going up by a large margin.
My point being, if you are not high Master/GM. Balance changes are not gonna affect you as much as you thing, things that can really help you is your improvement not some patch changes. Idk what you're talking about, because I'm low/mid masters terran and many zergs I play get ultras or broods around 15-20 minutes which happens quite often. At least you are master. But still, if you have problems dealing with Zerg late game army. I suggest your watch ForGG stream. Hes not a great player as he was in BW, but his style is to avoid late game all together and doing some crazy two bases stuff. My point is, for many whining people here, try to improve yourself and see that actual patch in action before starting to whine . Remember that hellions nerf? People was saying like Hellions are never gonna used again, and see how it is nowadays? Hellions are kind of a must in TvZ early game now.
im with imoperator on this...
most players prefer to play a long macro game, they're prepared to all-in in order to win but they are more than entitled to be pissed off and complain about late game balance in the meantime.
"oh if you want to play long macro game you should reroll zerg" is not what we want to hear.
also, i don't agree with the 'hellions are never gonna be used again' to prove your point. very few pro players voiced any concern about it - you 3-shot workers instead of 2-shot... they were rediculously OP, if you got 2 hellions in your base you almost lost the game instantly. the "OMG BLIZZ NERF HELLION WTF DUMB BLIZZA THEY WERE FINE!" is a classic bronze noob argument.
however, the ghost change... ppl must remember that zerg will always have a superior economy than terran unless terran has a good engagement before late game to deal significant damage and/or at least deny 3rd or 4th base. if zerg trades equally with terran, or even slightly ineffeciently, then zerg has a huge economic advantage and terran simply can't afford to mass up hundreds of ghosts. ergo if macro terran trades evenly versus macro zerg, broodlords come out and terran has no answer at all because your first ~6 ghosts with 75 energy won't kill the broods fast enough.
that's game dynamics 101 in my opinion... in passive games zerg will always have eco lead and therefore have tier3 way before terran. that's why ghosts need to be good.
example ESV TV grandprix life versus alive (possible spoilers). life had great builds but was soooooooo sloppy (he lost a couple of games seemingly because he thought he'd won and just a-moved his army and went afk) and he still had alive's ass against the wall. if i'm wrong then call me biased, but ino that series was a perfect demonstration of how rediculously imba fast broodlords can be.
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On February 20 2012 20:31 human_ko wrote:
im toss but tvz will be a joke
Just like T v P is a joke as well?
Protoss have units which are much more cost effective, warp mechanic etc. Once Zerg gets rolling with their economy, there isn't much a Terran can do to keep up with the fast reinforced army which is Zerg. Snipe was a Terrans weapon to combat this, but I'm not so confident with the upcoming nerf that it will be enough.
There is not really much for a Terran to look forward to at the moment. I too love the long macro games (Yes, I'm a Terran) and hate doing 1 base or 2 base all-ins. But the way I see it now is, if you macro up where it's getting to the point where a 200/200 T v P/Z army will collide, ONLY if the Terran convincingly wins that engagement he actually has a decent chance of taking the game. If the engagement turns out relatively close in units killed, the Terran is at disadvantage.
It's really starting to annoy me that it feels like I'm being pushed into this corner where my race is starting to scream at me to all-in. Thanks Blizzard.
Most know the T v P MU is basically F#$K3D up! Why do the same to T v Z? I find this MU the most entertaining to watch..... not for much longer I guess.
It won't be too long until people just get over Terran doing all-ins 98% of their games. Oh but that's right, we'll get a 50% Terran win rate from this and everyone will think everything is OK..........
Such a joke.
EDIT: I have actually started to try out the Protoss and Zerg races out of rage as well. For me, I don't really find either exciting.... so the way things are going I don't think I'm going to be playing SC2 as much as I used to.
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This sucked at all. Zerg gonna stay in base until have combo infestor bloodlord, he can play this composition in blind. Why ? Bcuz this beat all units. How to counter bloodlord after patch ? Make vikings ? Nice joke, zerg can easy make 10 corruptors at once, even if u have a lot of vikings he can fungal it. The funny part why zerg have advantage is bcuz he dont lose money for buildings ! He make army from hatchery/base, so he go mass ECO.
Blizz make balans for Korea players only. Ok, if MMA or MVP have great skill (multitasking, split etc) that blizz nerf terran so causal players in master gonna be to hard to play as terran.
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On February 20 2012 19:00 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 15:02 DeCoder wrote:On February 20 2012 03:25 Tsubbi wrote:terran has not ONCE since the release been below 50% winrate in tvz, despite the many nerfs since release terran always managed to stay on top because they have so many viable tools that they didn't even need to experiment with pre nerfs like 95% of tvz wins come way before ghost even come into play anyways, the effect on winrates will be pretty low imo in a balanced game the winrates should fluctuate around the 50% mark, changing with current trends in playstyle, until now they fluctuated around the 55% mark in favor of terran (see here http://imgur.com/a/hQHYS ) that being said i think terrans should be happy that more vital units to the matchup like hellions are still untouched btw not in the graph yet is the february winrate in korean tvz, which is at 24-11 (68%) currently This. Blizzard sees it as an unfair advantage to terrans and they should fix it before any further tournaments take place, although just one day before is definitelly not ideal. Well basically you two say, the nerf has no impact, so don't whine. But if it had no impact, that nerfing ghost would make no sense at all. Of course it has an impact and of course a big one. And to make ZvT to a matchup where Terran is just playing against the clock, trying to kill/cripple zerg so hard before broodlords come out, well everyone, playing zerg or terran at least, knows that this is usually not done with a standard macro oriented build. So what we'll have to adapt to? 1base or 2base allins/timings and since 2base timings usually suck hard against zerg (if zerg doesn't play totally weird) we'll go back to 1base stuff much more often, and the crying will start again.
Welcome to PvZ;)
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On February 21 2012 00:48 DarQraven wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 19:00 TeeTS wrote:On February 20 2012 15:02 DeCoder wrote:On February 20 2012 03:25 Tsubbi wrote:terran has not ONCE since the release been below 50% winrate in tvz, despite the many nerfs since release terran always managed to stay on top because they have so many viable tools that they didn't even need to experiment with pre nerfs like 95% of tvz wins come way before ghost even come into play anyways, the effect on winrates will be pretty low imo in a balanced game the winrates should fluctuate around the 50% mark, changing with current trends in playstyle, until now they fluctuated around the 55% mark in favor of terran (see here http://imgur.com/a/hQHYS ) that being said i think terrans should be happy that more vital units to the matchup like hellions are still untouched btw not in the graph yet is the february winrate in korean tvz, which is at 24-11 (68%) currently This. Blizzard sees it as an unfair advantage to terrans and they should fix it before any further tournaments take place, although just one day before is definitelly not ideal. Well basically you two say, the nerf has no impact, so don't whine. But if it had no impact, that nerfing ghost would make no sense at all. Of course it has an impact and of course a big one. And to make ZvT to a matchup where Terran is just playing against the clock, trying to kill/cripple zerg so hard before broodlords come out, well everyone, playing zerg or terran at least, knows that this is usually not done with a standard macro oriented build. So what we'll have to adapt to? 1base or 2base allins/timings and since 2base timings usually suck hard against zerg (if zerg doesn't play totally weird) we'll go back to 1base stuff much more often, and the crying will start again. Welcome to PvZ;)
Up until a couple of months ago PvZ was zerg trying to kill the protoss before he amassed the deathball. The right phrase should be "welcome to TvP" for the protoss players.
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edit: alas, for life is over for all us terrans. just like every single time a patch came out, the responses are all warranted, intelligent, and appropriate reactions.
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On February 21 2012 01:18 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 00:48 DarQraven wrote:On February 20 2012 19:00 TeeTS wrote:On February 20 2012 15:02 DeCoder wrote:On February 20 2012 03:25 Tsubbi wrote:terran has not ONCE since the release been below 50% winrate in tvz, despite the many nerfs since release terran always managed to stay on top because they have so many viable tools that they didn't even need to experiment with pre nerfs like 95% of tvz wins come way before ghost even come into play anyways, the effect on winrates will be pretty low imo in a balanced game the winrates should fluctuate around the 50% mark, changing with current trends in playstyle, until now they fluctuated around the 55% mark in favor of terran (see here http://imgur.com/a/hQHYS ) that being said i think terrans should be happy that more vital units to the matchup like hellions are still untouched btw not in the graph yet is the february winrate in korean tvz, which is at 24-11 (68%) currently This. Blizzard sees it as an unfair advantage to terrans and they should fix it before any further tournaments take place, although just one day before is definitelly not ideal. Well basically you two say, the nerf has no impact, so don't whine. But if it had no impact, that nerfing ghost would make no sense at all. Of course it has an impact and of course a big one. And to make ZvT to a matchup where Terran is just playing against the clock, trying to kill/cripple zerg so hard before broodlords come out, well everyone, playing zerg or terran at least, knows that this is usually not done with a standard macro oriented build. So what we'll have to adapt to? 1base or 2base allins/timings and since 2base timings usually suck hard against zerg (if zerg doesn't play totally weird) we'll go back to 1base stuff much more often, and the crying will start again. Welcome to PvZ;) Up until a couple of months ago PvZ was zerg trying to kill the protoss before he amassed the deathball. The right phrase should be "welcome to TvP" for the protoss players.
And now the standard is the protoss trying to kill the zerg before the infamous mass muta comes into the battlefield.... Actually, i can open with 2 stargate without scout...
Infact, the patch try to address this flaw too.
Welcome to PvZ
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On February 20 2012 21:21 giorgio wrote:
This sucked at all. Zerg gonna stay in base until have combo infestor bloodlord, he can play this composition in blind. Why ? Bcuz this beat all units. How to counter bloodlord after patch ? Make vikings ? Nice joke, zerg can easy make 10 corruptors at once, even if u have a lot of vikings he can fungal it. The funny part why zerg have advantage is bcuz he dont lose money for buildings ! He make army from hatchery/base, so he go mass ECO.
Blizz make balans for Korea players only. Ok, if MMA or MVP have great skill (multitasking, split etc) that blizz nerf terran so causal players in master gonna be to hard to play as terran.
Yeah, I agree with this basically. Zergs just have to make sure they don't suffer huge damage during early/mid game and then late game they're just gonna roll T over, just like in PvT. I'm not the greatest player, but I can macro fairly decently and get 200/200 in about 15 minutes, but you just can't attack into infestor/ling. It takes a really long time to siege up and slowly creep forward and by the time you finally are in a position to pressure, they have broods or ultras waiting. Drops get denied pretty easily by good creepspread and spines at their bases to stall for lings to clean it up. The whole match up now is going to be like TvP, either kill the zerg before 15 minutes or lose. Unless you have the micro of the top Koreans, you're not going to beat a n infestor/ultra or infestor/broodlord army cost efficiently.
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I don't think lategame PvT favours P as hard as lategame TvZ is about to favour Z. Lategame TvP is 100% about how the engagement works out. Positioning is hugely important and trading effectively is, too. Lategame TvZ now...I just don't feel like Terran will have any options against Infestor/BL into Ultras, to be honest.
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United States1738 Posts
Wait wait wasnt it that a few months ago people were QQ about how bad and cost ineffective ghosts were vs infestors O_O? Once you see one of the best terran in the world start using ghosts now everyone is QQ about how ghost nerf will break tvz. MMA doesnt really use ghosts in his matchup and his tvz seems fine to me. Stop crying about ghost nerf this change doesnt even effect most of you. If anything, this change will mess up viewers since it create one dimensional play but gaming wise it shouldnt even effect 95% of the players. If you let zerg make "15 broodlords 10 corruptors and 20 infestors", maybe the problem is in your own game play since.. what were you doing for 15 minutes?
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On February 21 2012 04:59 phodacbiet wrote:
Wait wait wasnt it that a few months ago people were QQ about how bad and cost ineffective ghosts were vs infestors O_O? Once you see one of the best terran in the world start using ghosts now everyone is QQ about how ghost nerf will break tvz. MMA doesnt really use ghosts in his matchup and his tvz seems fine to me. Stop crying about ghost nerf this change doesnt even effect most of you. If anything, this change will mess up viewers since it create one dimensional play but gaming wise it shouldnt even effect 95% of the players. If you let zerg make "15 broodlords 10 corruptors and 20 infestors", maybe the problem is in your own game play since.. what were you doing for 15 minutes?
Cute. A "don't let him get there' response. No thanks.
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