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On February 20 2012 11:00 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 10:50 Matrijs wrote:
I'm curious: why don't infestors hard counter ravens? Just fungal the group to hold them in place, then NP two of them and double seeker missile the whole group (which can't run away because of fungal), killing them all instantly. Neural Parasite only outranges Seeker Missile by 1, which would make it difficult to outrange successfully, were it not for the fact that you can use fungal to hold the ravens still... The day this happens is the day pimpest plays returns.
To be honest, as a terrible Terran who can't marine split, this doesn't sound that hard to me, which is why I suggested it. Step 1, fungal (easy, you have a range differential of 3 to exploit). Step 2, NP (slightly harder, but not too bad - your infestor will automatically NP at max range). Step 3, fungal again to make sure nothing gets away (easy). Step 4, select raven and seeker missile. You can even do it nice and slow - each fungal gives you a four second window to do the next action, during which the ravens can't move.
Basic marine splitting is harder.
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United States97276 Posts
On February 20 2012 11:15 Matrijs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 11:00 ZeromuS wrote:On February 20 2012 10:50 Matrijs wrote:
I'm curious: why don't infestors hard counter ravens? Just fungal the group to hold them in place, then NP two of them and double seeker missile the whole group (which can't run away because of fungal), killing them all instantly. Neural Parasite only outranges Seeker Missile by 1, which would make it difficult to outrange successfully, were it not for the fact that you can use fungal to hold the ravens still... The day this happens is the day pimpest plays returns. To be honest, as a terrible Terran who can't marine split, this doesn't sound that hard to me, which is why I suggested it. Step 1, fungal (easy, you have a range differential of 3 to exploit). Step 2, NP (slightly harder, but not too bad - your infestor will automatically NP at max range). Step 3, fungal again to make sure nothing gets away (easy). Step 4, select raven and seeker missile. You can even do it nice and slow - each fungal gives you a four second window to do the next action, during which the ravens can't move. Basic marine splitting is harder.
This still would be awesome to see
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Why release it the day before mlg and assembly? Blizzard is making me lose faith.
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Why the week delay for SEA... Not very well thought out.. I'll have to make sure I don't have my client set to NA and just stay on SEA for a week or I can't play in any of the SEA tourneys.
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On February 20 2012 11:33 BenAD wrote:
Why the week delay for SEA... Not very well thought out.. I'll have to make sure I don't have my client set to NA and just stay on SEA for a week or I can't play in any of the SEA tourneys.
Just copy your SC2 client and launch 1 for SEA and the other for NA until the end of the week. not exactly rocket science 
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On February 20 2012 11:15 Matrijs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 11:00 ZeromuS wrote:On February 20 2012 10:50 Matrijs wrote:
I'm curious: why don't infestors hard counter ravens? Just fungal the group to hold them in place, then NP two of them and double seeker missile the whole group (which can't run away because of fungal), killing them all instantly. Neural Parasite only outranges Seeker Missile by 1, which would make it difficult to outrange successfully, were it not for the fact that you can use fungal to hold the ravens still... The day this happens is the day pimpest plays returns. To be honest, as a terrible Terran who can't marine split, this doesn't sound that hard to me, which is why I suggested it. Step 1, fungal (easy, you have a range differential of 3 to exploit). Step 2, NP (slightly harder, but not too bad - your infestor will automatically NP at max range). Step 3, fungal again to make sure nothing gets away (easy). Step 4, select raven and seeker missile. You can even do it nice and slow - each fungal gives you a four second window to do the next action, during which the ravens can't move. Basic marine splitting is harder.
you missed step 5: step 1-4 fails because your infestors all die to range 13 siege tanks.
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On February 20 2012 11:40 OrangeSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 11:15 Matrijs wrote:On February 20 2012 11:00 ZeromuS wrote:On February 20 2012 10:50 Matrijs wrote:
I'm curious: why don't infestors hard counter ravens? Just fungal the group to hold them in place, then NP two of them and double seeker missile the whole group (which can't run away because of fungal), killing them all instantly. Neural Parasite only outranges Seeker Missile by 1, which would make it difficult to outrange successfully, were it not for the fact that you can use fungal to hold the ravens still... The day this happens is the day pimpest plays returns. To be honest, as a terrible Terran who can't marine split, this doesn't sound that hard to me, which is why I suggested it. Step 1, fungal (easy, you have a range differential of 3 to exploit). Step 2, NP (slightly harder, but not too bad - your infestor will automatically NP at max range). Step 3, fungal again to make sure nothing gets away (easy). Step 4, select raven and seeker missile. You can even do it nice and slow - each fungal gives you a four second window to do the next action, during which the ravens can't move. Basic marine splitting is harder. you missed step 5: step 1-4 fails because your infestors all die to range 13 siege tanks.
I guess that's the answer I was looking for. But then, if that's true, why aren't Vikings a good answer to Broodlords? They'd be out of range of fungal unless you run your infestors into siege range.
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On February 20 2012 11:45 Matrijs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 11:40 OrangeSoda wrote:On February 20 2012 11:15 Matrijs wrote:On February 20 2012 11:00 ZeromuS wrote:On February 20 2012 10:50 Matrijs wrote:
I'm curious: why don't infestors hard counter ravens? Just fungal the group to hold them in place, then NP two of them and double seeker missile the whole group (which can't run away because of fungal), killing them all instantly. Neural Parasite only outranges Seeker Missile by 1, which would make it difficult to outrange successfully, were it not for the fact that you can use fungal to hold the ravens still... The day this happens is the day pimpest plays returns. To be honest, as a terrible Terran who can't marine split, this doesn't sound that hard to me, which is why I suggested it. Step 1, fungal (easy, you have a range differential of 3 to exploit). Step 2, NP (slightly harder, but not too bad - your infestor will automatically NP at max range). Step 3, fungal again to make sure nothing gets away (easy). Step 4, select raven and seeker missile. You can even do it nice and slow - each fungal gives you a four second window to do the next action, during which the ravens can't move. Basic marine splitting is harder. you missed step 5: step 1-4 fails because your infestors all die to range 13 siege tanks. I guess that's the answer I was looking for. But then, if that's true, why aren't Vikings a good answer to Broodlords? They'd be out of range of fungal unless you run your infestors into siege range.
Probably because to hit the Broods they have to fly into fungal range and in most cases the Infestors at that point will be out of range of the tanks or at least out of sight . Then the weakened Vikings will be killed of by Infested Terrans or / Corrupters that to pretty well against Vikings in an open fight. If there was a ground units that would do reasonable damage to corrupters that doesn't die in 1.5 fungals this wouldn't be a problem. Sadly the Thor with it's low damage but many shots is pretty bad against corrupters.
The Zerg will just hover right next to your army and lets the Broods shoot the Broodlings so tanks splash your own units if you stay sieged since you can't give them the order to not fire constantly......... . A seize fire command like the Ghost for example has on sieged tanks would do wonders.
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On February 20 2012 12:10 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 11:45 Matrijs wrote:On February 20 2012 11:40 OrangeSoda wrote:On February 20 2012 11:15 Matrijs wrote:On February 20 2012 11:00 ZeromuS wrote:On February 20 2012 10:50 Matrijs wrote:
I'm curious: why don't infestors hard counter ravens? Just fungal the group to hold them in place, then NP two of them and double seeker missile the whole group (which can't run away because of fungal), killing them all instantly. Neural Parasite only outranges Seeker Missile by 1, which would make it difficult to outrange successfully, were it not for the fact that you can use fungal to hold the ravens still... The day this happens is the day pimpest plays returns. To be honest, as a terrible Terran who can't marine split, this doesn't sound that hard to me, which is why I suggested it. Step 1, fungal (easy, you have a range differential of 3 to exploit). Step 2, NP (slightly harder, but not too bad - your infestor will automatically NP at max range). Step 3, fungal again to make sure nothing gets away (easy). Step 4, select raven and seeker missile. You can even do it nice and slow - each fungal gives you a four second window to do the next action, during which the ravens can't move. Basic marine splitting is harder. you missed step 5: step 1-4 fails because your infestors all die to range 13 siege tanks. I guess that's the answer I was looking for. But then, if that's true, why aren't Vikings a good answer to Broodlords? They'd be out of range of fungal unless you run your infestors into siege range. Probably because to hit the Broods they have to fly into fungal range and in most cases the Infestors at that point will be out of range of the tanks or at least out of sight . Then the weakened Vikings will be killed of by Infested Terrans or / Corrupters that to pretty well against Vikings in an open fight. If there was a ground units that would do reasonable damage to corrupters that doesn't die in 1.5 fungals this wouldn't be a problem. Sadly the Thor with it's low damage but many shots is pretty bad against corrupters.
That's not really true either, though. For Vikings to hit Broods, they have to get within 9 range of the broods. Presumably, the Broods are shooting tanks, and therefore the Vikings are directly on top of the tanks. Therefore, in order to fungal the Vikings, the Infestors must get within siege range.
My guess is a little simpler: when the broods engage the tanks, the Terran is faced with two options: leave the tanks sieged (whereupon they kill each other by shooting broodlings), or unsiege and run. Most Terrans choose the latter in order to preserve their tanks, THEN engage with Vikings. This, of course, means that the Infestors can run up and fungal the Vikings unmolested. It also means that they can run up and fungal, NP, and seeker missile ravens unmolested, which, in turn, means that ravens won't be viable against broodlord/infestor/corrupter.
EDIT: I think your edit nailed it.
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Of course, terran still has the viable alternative to snipe/emp the infestors who attempt to fungal the vikings, at which point they'll be able to kill broods while semi-dodging corruptors.
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On February 20 2012 12:16 Matrijs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 12:10 s3rp wrote:On February 20 2012 11:45 Matrijs wrote:On February 20 2012 11:40 OrangeSoda wrote:On February 20 2012 11:15 Matrijs wrote:On February 20 2012 11:00 ZeromuS wrote:On February 20 2012 10:50 Matrijs wrote:
I'm curious: why don't infestors hard counter ravens? Just fungal the group to hold them in place, then NP two of them and double seeker missile the whole group (which can't run away because of fungal), killing them all instantly. Neural Parasite only outranges Seeker Missile by 1, which would make it difficult to outrange successfully, were it not for the fact that you can use fungal to hold the ravens still... The day this happens is the day pimpest plays returns. To be honest, as a terrible Terran who can't marine split, this doesn't sound that hard to me, which is why I suggested it. Step 1, fungal (easy, you have a range differential of 3 to exploit). Step 2, NP (slightly harder, but not too bad - your infestor will automatically NP at max range). Step 3, fungal again to make sure nothing gets away (easy). Step 4, select raven and seeker missile. You can even do it nice and slow - each fungal gives you a four second window to do the next action, during which the ravens can't move. Basic marine splitting is harder. you missed step 5: step 1-4 fails because your infestors all die to range 13 siege tanks. I guess that's the answer I was looking for. But then, if that's true, why aren't Vikings a good answer to Broodlords? They'd be out of range of fungal unless you run your infestors into siege range. Probably because to hit the Broods they have to fly into fungal range and in most cases the Infestors at that point will be out of range of the tanks or at least out of sight . Then the weakened Vikings will be killed of by Infested Terrans or / Corrupters that to pretty well against Vikings in an open fight. If there was a ground units that would do reasonable damage to corrupters that doesn't die in 1.5 fungals this wouldn't be a problem. Sadly the Thor with it's low damage but many shots is pretty bad against corrupters. That's not really true either, though. For Vikings to hit Broods, they have to get within 9 range of the broods. Presumably, the Broods are shooting tanks, and therefore the Vikings are directly on top of the tanks. Therefore, in order to fungal the Vikings, the Infestors must get within siege range. My guess is a little simpler: when the broods engage the tanks, the Terran is faced with two options: leave the tanks sieged (whereupon they kill each other by shooting broodlings), or unsiege and run. Most Terrans choose the latter in order to preserve their tanks, THEN engage with Vikings. This, of course, means that the Infestors can run up and fungal the Vikings unmolested. It also means that they can run up and fungal, NP, and seeker missile ravens unmolested, which, in turn, means that ravens won't be viable against broodlord/infestor/corrupter. EDIT: I think your edit nailed it.
I guess thats more correct yes since Broodlords basically force you to give up your position less your own tanks will do that for you.
I guess if Blizzard implements a simple command on sieged tanks to stop firing automatically ( they could do it on all units for all i care ) would help alot against Broods. Right now it's damned if you stay sieged or damned if you unsiege since you give up a possibly viable position or triggers the Zerg to move in with his whole army.
Don't think anybody could argue against something like this or can they ? I mean if you see tanks don't shoot at Broodlings you can move in with your whole army before the Terran makes all his tanks ready again. It would also make it easier to handle/babysit tanks in TvT .
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On February 20 2012 12:23 Dalavita wrote:
Of course, terran still has the viable alternative to snipe/emp the infestors who attempt to fungal the vikings, at which point they'll be able to kill broods while semi-dodging corruptors.
Fungal / Emping Infestors without suffiecent cover will just instantly kill your Ghosts without archieving alot.
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this is going to be interesting to see.
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People are whining too much about TvZ late game in this upcoming patch. I don't think many TvZ below high Master and GM level can get to very late game where you divide the map and mass ghost vs blord/infestor. Most people don't have the skill to drag it into late game.
Most of my TvZ either end after i got a big 2 base push or got overrun by a mass ling/muta/bane army. We will have to wait to see how the patch perform at pro level before whining.
One thing to note, if you are diamond or below, just opening right, get to two bases, get marines and tank and you can slaughter zergs left and right. I can be said the for the zerg though, get 3 bases, run the Terran army over with one good engagement. Just stop whining and macro better, make less mistake and you can see your win/loss ratio going up by a large margin.
My point being, if you are not high Master/GM. Balance changes are not gonna affect you as much as you thing, things that can really help you is your improvement not some patch changes.
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On February 20 2012 12:46 Caphe wrote:
People are whining too much about TvZ late game in this upcoming patch. I don't think many TvZ below high Master and GM level can get to very late game where you divide the map and mass ghost vs blord/infestor. Most people don't have the skill to drag it into late game.
Most of my TvZ either end after i got a big 2 base push or got overrun by a mass ling/muta/bane army. We will have to wait to see how the patch perform at pro level before whining.
One thing to note, if you are diamond or below, just opening right, get to two bases, get marines and tank and you can slaughter zergs left and right. I can be said the for the zerg though, get 3 bases, run the Terran army over with one good engagement. Just stop whining and macro better, make less mistake and you can see your win/loss ratio going up by a large margin.
My point being, if you are not high Master/GM. Balance changes are not gonna affect you as much as you thing, things that can really help you is your improvement not some patch changes.
Idk what you're talking about, because I'm low/mid masters terran and many zergs I play get ultras or broods around 15-20 minutes which happens quite often.
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On February 20 2012 12:51 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 12:46 Caphe wrote:
People are whining too much about TvZ late game in this upcoming patch. I don't think many TvZ below high Master and GM level can get to very late game where you divide the map and mass ghost vs blord/infestor. Most people don't have the skill to drag it into late game.
Most of my TvZ either end after i got a big 2 base push or got overrun by a mass ling/muta/bane army. We will have to wait to see how the patch perform at pro level before whining.
One thing to note, if you are diamond or below, just opening right, get to two bases, get marines and tank and you can slaughter zergs left and right. I can be said the for the zerg though, get 3 bases, run the Terran army over with one good engagement. Just stop whining and macro better, make less mistake and you can see your win/loss ratio going up by a large margin.
My point being, if you are not high Master/GM. Balance changes are not gonna affect you as much as you thing, things that can really help you is your improvement not some patch changes. Idk what you're talking about, because I'm low/mid masters terran and many zergs I play get ultras or broods around 15-20 minutes which happens quite often.
At least you are master. But still, if you have problems dealing with Zerg late game army. I suggest your watch ForGG stream. Hes not a great player as he was in BW, but his style is to avoid late game all together and doing some crazy two bases stuff.
My point is, for many whining people here, try to improve yourself and see that actual patch in action before starting to whine . Remember that hellions nerf? People was saying like Hellions are never gonna used again, and see how it is nowadays? Hellions are kind of a must in TvZ early game now.
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On February 20 2012 12:58 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 12:51 IMoperator wrote:On February 20 2012 12:46 Caphe wrote:
People are whining too much about TvZ late game in this upcoming patch. I don't think many TvZ below high Master and GM level can get to very late game where you divide the map and mass ghost vs blord/infestor. Most people don't have the skill to drag it into late game.
Most of my TvZ either end after i got a big 2 base push or got overrun by a mass ling/muta/bane army. We will have to wait to see how the patch perform at pro level before whining.
One thing to note, if you are diamond or below, just opening right, get to two bases, get marines and tank and you can slaughter zergs left and right. I can be said the for the zerg though, get 3 bases, run the Terran army over with one good engagement. Just stop whining and macro better, make less mistake and you can see your win/loss ratio going up by a large margin.
My point being, if you are not high Master/GM. Balance changes are not gonna affect you as much as you thing, things that can really help you is your improvement not some patch changes. Idk what you're talking about, because I'm low/mid masters terran and many zergs I play get ultras or broods around 15-20 minutes which happens quite often. At least you are master. But still, if you have problems dealing with Zerg late game army. I suggest your watch ForGG stream. Hes not a great player as he was in BW, but his style is to avoid late game all together and doing some crazy two bases stuff. My point is, for many whining people here, try to improve yourself and see that actual patch in action before starting to whine . Remember that hellions nerf? People was saying like Hellions are never gonna used again, and see how it is nowadays? Hellions are kind of a must in TvZ early game now.
Oh great the old "Late game isn't broken just all in" argument. My favorite.
Also people said after the BFH nerf that you wouldn't see BFH anymore TvZ. How often do you see them? Hardly ever. You see between 4-6 hellions in a normal TvZ.
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Looks like the micro race is about to get even harder.
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I really don't understand Blizzard's thinking. Making such a gigantic change to lategame TvZ, giving us no time to test it, releasing it right before 2 tournaments, and only a week or so before GSL code S finals? What the hell is their rush?
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On February 20 2012 03:25 Tsubbi wrote:terran has not ONCE since the release been below 50% winrate in tvz, despite the many nerfs since release terran always managed to stay on top because they have so many viable tools that they didn't even need to experiment with pre nerfs like 95% of tvz wins come way before ghost even come into play anyways, the effect on winrates will be pretty low imo in a balanced game the winrates should fluctuate around the 50% mark, changing with current trends in playstyle, until now they fluctuated around the 55% mark in favor of terran (see here http://imgur.com/a/hQHYS ) that being said i think terrans should be happy that more vital units to the matchup like hellions are still untouched btw not in the graph yet is the february winrate in korean tvz, which is at 24-11 (68%) currently
This.
Blizzard sees it as an unfair advantage to terrans and they should fix it before any further tournaments take place, although just one day before is definitelly not ideal.
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EPT
