On February 12 2012 02:36 -Duderino- wrote: I think a misconception is people seeing someone snipe all of zergs late game broodlords or ultras and thinking thats op, but in order to have enough ghosts and support to do that the terran has to be ahead. Also ghosts are terrans best late game unit.
A broodlord costs 300/200 to build, its takes 2 ghost(1 with full energy) to kill a brood lord, 2 ghost cost 400/200.
An ultralisk costs 300/200 to build, it takes 3 ghost(2 with full energy) to kill an ultralisk, 3 ghost cost 600/300.
Yes ghost beat both ultralisk and broodlords, but why is this such a shock???? they cost more than then both of them, and they have to sit for a couple mins to get full energy, and they have to be microed like a madman, and once out of energy ghosts are useless in a big fight. Like of course they should beat zerg late game units that cost less then them and require way less micro.
You are trying to make a logical argument. Don't. In many replies here it clearly states that "T2 ghosts shouldn't beat T3 ultras and bl". Apparently, it has to be only T1 (lings vs thors) or any unit (that can shoot up vs BC) that can beat T3. Not T2.
That's a stupid argument; T2 Vikings obviously beat T3 colossus, Carriers, and the Mothership.
Along with that, they beat Corruptors and Broodlords handily, though not mutas, due to mass-production, readily available gas from the Zerg, and Overkill.
Like I said though, if we make too many vikings, we can't survive against the pure-ground tech-switch.
On February 12 2012 02:36 -Duderino- wrote: I think a misconception is people seeing someone snipe all of zergs late game broodlords or ultras and thinking thats op, but in order to have enough ghosts and support to do that the terran has to be ahead. Also ghosts are terrans best late game unit.
A broodlord costs 300/200 to build, its takes 2 ghost(1 with full energy) to kill a brood lord, 2 ghost cost 400/200.
An ultralisk costs 300/200 to build, it takes 3 ghost(2 with full energy) to kill an ultralisk, 3 ghost cost 600/300.
Yes ghost beat both ultralisk and broodlords, but why is this such a shock???? they cost more than then both of them, and they have to sit for a couple mins to get full energy, and they have to be microed like a madman, and once out of energy ghosts are useless in a big fight. Like of course they should beat zerg late game units that cost less then them and require way less micro.
You are trying to make a logical argument. Don't. In many replies here it clearly states that "T2 ghosts shouldn't beat T3 ultras and bl". Apparently, it has to be only T1 (lings vs thors) or any unit (that can shoot up vs BC) that can beat T3. Not T2.
That's a stupid argument; T2 Vikings obviously beat T3 colossus, Carriers, and the Mothership.
Along with that, they beat Corruptors and Broodlords handily, though not mutas, due to mass-production, readily available gas from the Zerg, and Overkill.
Like I said though, if we make too many vikings, we can't survive against the pure-ground tech-switch.
On February 12 2012 03:10 Torra wrote: I think what the real problem is is that terran doesn't have as good T3 as the other races for lategame. Sure, ghosts are really strong, but without them terran has nothing against lategame high tech compositions. I think everyone would agree that if terran got buffed in another way for lategame, the snipe change would be ok. Maybe buff BCs or ravens a bit?
BCs and Ravens are fine. It's just that Terran's T2 and T1 is good enough to carry the weight and is more supply efficient. If you were to buff Terran T3, it would be too strong.
Anwser the question, maybe? What does terran do in lategame now? They were already the weakest race.
On February 12 2012 02:36 -Duderino- wrote: I think a misconception is people seeing someone snipe all of zergs late game broodlords or ultras and thinking thats op, but in order to have enough ghosts and support to do that the terran has to be ahead. Also ghosts are terrans best late game unit.
A broodlord costs 300/200 to build, its takes 2 ghost(1 with full energy) to kill a brood lord, 2 ghost cost 400/200.
An ultralisk costs 300/200 to build, it takes 3 ghost(2 with full energy) to kill an ultralisk, 3 ghost cost 600/300.
Yes ghost beat both ultralisk and broodlords, but why is this such a shock???? they cost more than then both of them, and they have to sit for a couple mins to get full energy, and they have to be microed like a madman, and once out of energy ghosts are useless in a big fight. Like of course they should beat zerg late game units that cost less then them and require way less micro. Zerg has to scout late game (i know big shock) and go banelings instead of infestor if they go ghost. (make tanks unsiege with broodlords then roll ghosts with banes, and remax instant on cheap banes.)
I never all ined b4 emp nerf, now I am forced to 1/1/1 everyother game vs toss to keep a consistent win ratio.
Looks like im going to have to learn all ins vs zerg cause terran won't stand a chance late game without snipe.
At least I will always have tvt for macro games.
Banelings are anything but cheap, and those numbers are post patch, currently, 1 ghost can potentially do 360 damage with snipes if it's at full energy, so that's enough to kill a brood lord (225 hp) and then some, and brood lords are 300/250, while ghosts are 200/100.
The funny thing is that if this patch goes through the raven will replace the ghost.
So intead of Siege tank, ghost, rine.
It will be Raven, siege tank, rine/rauder.
And I will be laughing so hard when zerg realizes they would rather of had ghosts spend 2 min sniping there hearts out rather then 3 seeker missile killing all there broodlords at once.
My worry is that now there is no answer to a lategame zerg player who masses a few blords and alot of inestors and enough corrupters to clear out vikings, before now ghosts were the sole answer to this sort of thing, but now I'm not so sure. We might see ravens being used instead because of HSM being fast enough to catch corrupter/blord but thats a very serious investment if meching and relies on both players being passive if going marine tank.
I also feel that blizzard are changing this after zergs had begun to play well vs it, we're already seeing zergs pulling their full energy queens to go with their push and this definitely seems to even the odds in my opinion.
Another problem I'm seeing is that the weakness of Terran lategame is causing both TvP and TvZ to become race's against time, its already generally accepted that vs Protoss lategame is extremely difficult and without a way of dealing with lategame zergs we might see Terrans just return to cheese and all in timings to win.
this isn't something I'd like, neither as a viewer or a terran player
Yeah I have to the say the only problem with these changes is how absolutely drastic they are. arent pheonix range 4? so +2? that's absurd and 8 more snipes for my ultra?
crazy huge changes generally arent a good thing imo, even though they addressed the game correctly.
On February 12 2012 01:39 NeoGeoOdin wrote: So, we wont gona see this again... so bad
While I do agree that ghost snipe was extremely strong and probably borderline too strong, I think the patch goes too far. In a situation like this, I never understood why zerg didn't change their unit composition when ghosts are on the field in that number. There are a lot of things that can handle ghosts... zerglings and banelings for example. This is real time strategy where you have to constantly counter your opponent. They go one unit, you go with a countering unit. The idea is not to climb the tech ladder and when you get to the top you're done. Most of the games that ended up in this situation was zerg trying to go in with nothing but broodlords when they should have been getting rid of supply slowly and transitioning into something that can handle ghosts. Ghosts are basically a direct counter to broodlords as pointed out right on blizzards website.
Taken right off blizzards website "The biggest strength of Brood Lords is their ability to create massive numbers of Broodlings. Take Brood Lords out instantly using ghosts and their snipe ability to prevent this."
I personally think they went a little to far with it.
Besides, the time it takes for a terran to field ghosts should give Zergs an ample window to hit. But currently Zergs just sit on their ass and defend while taking more bases.
If terran complains about the insane eco capability of Zerg it's always the "you should have attacked them" argument. But when a terran is gimping his own marine production to start producing ghosts that really become a threat to their high tier units when there are 12-15 of them with full energy, you cannot expect them to attack? Or wait.. then you would have to scout the ghost switch and prepare.. and the 5 minutes it takes for 4 rounds of ghosts and the gathering of energy is a too narrow window to attack.
On February 12 2012 02:36 -Duderino- wrote: I think a misconception is people seeing someone snipe all of zergs late game broodlords or ultras and thinking thats op, but in order to have enough ghosts and support to do that the terran has to be ahead. Also ghosts are terrans best late game unit.
A broodlord costs 300/200 to build, its takes 2 ghost(1 with full energy) to kill a brood lord, 2 ghost cost 400/200.
An ultralisk costs 300/200 to build, it takes 3 ghost(2 with full energy) to kill an ultralisk, 3 ghost cost 600/300.
Yes ghost beat both ultralisk and broodlords, but why is this such a shock???? they cost more than then both of them, and they have to sit for a couple mins to get full energy, and they have to be microed like a madman, and once out of energy ghosts are useless in a big fight. Like of course they should beat zerg late game units that cost less then them and require way less micro. Zerg has to scout late game (i know big shock) and go banelings instead of infestor if they go ghost. (make tanks unsiege with broodlords then roll ghosts with banes, and remax instant on cheap banes.)
I never all ined b4 emp nerf, now I am forced to 1/1/1 everyother game vs toss to keep a consistent win ratio.
Looks like im going to have to learn all ins vs zerg cause terran won't stand a chance late game without snipe.
At least I will always have tvt for macro games.
A broodlord costs 300/250, not 300/200. 150 min 150 gas for corruptor/150 min 100 gas for broodlord. this makes it more expensive than 2 ghosts, 100 min vs 50 gas lategame, gas is more important.
What do you mean that broodlords and ultralisks cost less than ghosts? 3 ghosts cost more than 1 ultralisk, how is that a logical statement? I don't get it, so 2 ultralisk cost more than 4 ghost? You just choose x number of a unit and say that they combined cost more than one other unit.
Dude lol, im describing how many ghosts it takes to kill ultra. 2 ultra cost 600/400 but it takes 6 ghost to kill 2 ultra which is 1200/600 lol so like double, my point being ya you nubs see snipe killing ultras and broodlords, but ya obviously because i paid more for the ghosts they should win the fight. not counting amp needed and everything else ghosts are balanced, unless you wanna make the agrument that they shouldnt counter both broodlords and ultras but with tech switching being so ez for zerg terran needs an all around unit. Also ghost is terran best late game unit why is it a shock that terrans best late game unit counters zerg best late game units?? It goes toss>terran>zerg in regards to unit strength, yes bl/utlra is weaker then the right number of ghosts but zerg should have more bl/ultra than terran has ghosts unless terran is ahead.
You're describing how many ghosts are required to obliterate one unit, I mean no trade is happening, you still have all your ghosts remaining (with low energy that will regen over time). I'm totally fine with x number of ghosts, of a greater cost than one other unit, killing that one other unit. If you're trying to describe how the cost of ghosts compare to zerg in order to win against an ultralisk/broodlord, though, you're doing it wrong. You conclude that ghosts are of a greater cost than another unit based upon one utility (snipe) of the ghosts 3 utilities. Ghosts can do more than snipe. When you compare the cost to win a 1v1 battle unit vs unit there is always going to be very non-interesting results. Roach vs Hellion, 'oh my 3 hellions can't even beat 1 Roach eventhough they cost more'.
On February 12 2012 02:57 ChriseC wrote: i would like to see nerfs on all lategame compositions, since i feal all races fear other races lategame and this often results into a very undynamic gamedesign. especially zerg tries to cut alot of corners midgame to get a unbelieveable fast hive up i dont nessecarily think zergs lategame itself is the problem, but the way they reach it changed alot, just look at stephano: massupgraded lings with infestors into 13min hive, he said aswell that zvt is very simple and "easy".especially foreign players seem to have alot of problems playing against it since their play is alot more passive.
13min Hive-->15min Ultras... compared to 10min Colossus/Thor this seems pretty slow.
Considering how much better Broodlords or even Ultras are getting BC/Thors out earlier is pretty much irrelevant since they don't exactly force special counters unlike the other 2.
I think blizzard is trying really hard to make sure no one plays Terran anymore, late game TvP is ridiculously difficult of not inpossible. Also late game TvZ was already super difficult , I'm not sure how Terran is supposed to kill ultras and brood lords now? Marauders really are not a good counter to ultras you have to kite them all day.
I honestly don't understand why this was done when the results show 50/50 for the most part and web in GSL no Terran player is dominating anymore in fact looks like Rey are under powered slightly currentt.
I think Terran has to do a ton of damage early game because once late game comes they are just dead.
On February 12 2012 02:36 -Duderino- wrote: I think a misconception is people seeing someone snipe all of zergs late game broodlords or ultras and thinking thats op, but in order to have enough ghosts and support to do that the terran has to be ahead. Also ghosts are terrans best late game unit.
A broodlord costs 300/200 to build, its takes 2 ghost(1 with full energy) to kill a brood lord, 2 ghost cost 400/200.
An ultralisk costs 300/200 to build, it takes 3 ghost(2 with full energy) to kill an ultralisk, 3 ghost cost 600/300.
Yes ghost beat both ultralisk and broodlords, but why is this such a shock???? they cost more than then both of them, and they have to sit for a couple mins to get full energy, and they have to be microed like a madman, and once out of energy ghosts are useless in a big fight. Like of course they should beat zerg late game units that cost less then them and require way less micro. Zerg has to scout late game (i know big shock) and go banelings instead of infestor if they go ghost. (make tanks unsiege with broodlords then roll ghosts with banes, and remax instant on cheap banes.)
I never all ined b4 emp nerf, now I am forced to 1/1/1 everyother game vs toss to keep a consistent win ratio.
Looks like im going to have to learn all ins vs zerg cause terran won't stand a chance late game without snipe.
At least I will always have tvt for macro games.
A broodlord costs 300/250, not 300/200. 150 min 150 gas for corruptor/150 min 100 gas for broodlord. this makes it more expensive than 2 ghosts, 100 min vs 50 gas lategame, gas is more important.
What do you mean that broodlords and ultralisks cost less than ghosts? 3 ghosts cost more than 1 ultralisk, how is that a logical statement? I don't get it, so 2 ultralisk cost more than 4 ghost? You just choose x number of a unit and say that they combined cost more than one other unit.
Dude lol, im describing how many ghosts it takes to kill ultra. 2 ultra cost 600/400 but it takes 6 ghost to kill 2 ultra which is 1200/600 lol so like double, my point being ya you nubs see snipe killing ultras and broodlords, but ya obviously because i paid more for the ghosts they should win the fight. not counting amp needed and everything else ghosts are balanced, unless you wanna make the agrument that they shouldnt counter both broodlords and ultras but with tech switching being so ez for zerg terran needs an all around unit. Also ghost is terran best late game unit why is it a shock that terrans best late game unit counters zerg best late game units?? It goes toss>terran>zerg in regards to unit strength, yes bl/utlra is weaker then the right number of ghosts but zerg should have more bl/ultra than terran has ghosts unless terran is ahead.
You're describing how many ghosts are required to obliterate one unit, I mean no trade is happening, you still have all your ghosts remaining (with low energy that will regen over time). I'm totally fine with x number of ghosts, of a greater cost than one other unit, killing that one other unit. If you're trying to describe how the cost of ghosts compare to zerg in order to win against an ultralisk/broodlord, though, you're doing it wrong. You conclude that ghosts are of a greater cost than another unit based upon one utility (snipe) of the ghosts 3 utilities. Ghosts can do more than snipe. When you compare the cost to win a 1v1 battle unit vs unit there is always going to be very non-interesting results. Roach vs Hellion, 'oh my 3 hellions can't even beat 1 Roach eventhough they cost more'.
3 helions can beat 1 roach so ur whole point is invalid. My point is that ghosts vs zerg late game are all about snipe that is their main attack. And if I emp i cant snipe. And when I run out of snipes in a big a battle those ghosts are essentially dead. So yes they counter various units but in order to attack they have to be constantly microed and kept with energy.
I don't think they should be making such a huge change to ghosts without toning down the BL a bit...I think it was Grubby who put it best at HSC4 with the archon toilet, that atm we need to use something that's ridiculously strong, almost OP to kill something that is also bordering OP. I agree that the ghost snipe was too strong, but it was the most effective way to deal with zerg T3 (mostly BL's) because when brood lords are on the map, unless you already have a good amount of vikings, the zerg can keep pushing and pushing and pushing until you're up against the ropes. Especially with tank friendly fire, brood lords can melt you're army unless you already have 2-4 vikings for each BL. Even then vikings are more of a bandage covering up a sprained ankle if they have any number of corruptors.
They need to put the ghost cost back to where it was a few patches ago if they hate mass ghost - that way Terran just can't afford 20 ghosts. Takes care of mass pew pew pew. Leave it's snipe and it's EMP radius old school. Quite simply Terran doesnt really have effective T3 so they are needed. I guess BC's with Yamato are pretty bad ass but other races will not let them get 10 or so to be effective.
I've said for months the problem with Zerg's late game is infestors air targeting. Makes it so Toss and Terran have to have a crazy imba unit of their own like mothership or Ghost sniping everything. Make it so infestors can't target air so vikings now stand a chance vs bl/infestor/corr deathball combo. How the hell does fungel grow in the air and lock something down anyways? retarded,
Fungel/Locking down air should either kill it because flyers drop from the sky when they stop moving or just shouldnt happen. This whole idea of fungal countering EVERYTHING makes crazy imba units like MS and Ghost snipe is necessary to win.
Always funny to see people drawing sweeping conclusions before they've tested the balance changes. They apparently have not learned any lessons after nearly 2 years of SC2 being released. Is it because they're trying to troll these forums, or are they just not smart? You decide.
On February 12 2012 03:23 -Duderino- wrote: The funny thing is that if this patch goes through the raven will replace the ghost.
So intead of Siege tank, ghost, rine.
It will be Raven, siege tank, rine/rauder.
And I will be laughing so hard when zerg realizes they would rather of had ghosts spend 2 min sniping there hearts out rather then 3 seeker missile killing all there broodlords at once.
Actually, the Z will be laughing when he NP's your ravens and heat seekers your own army.
On February 12 2012 02:36 -Duderino- wrote: I think a misconception is people seeing someone snipe all of zergs late game broodlords or ultras and thinking thats op, but in order to have enough ghosts and support to do that the terran has to be ahead. Also ghosts are terrans best late game unit.
A broodlord costs 300/200 to build, its takes 2 ghost(1 with full energy) to kill a brood lord, 2 ghost cost 400/200.
An ultralisk costs 300/200 to build, it takes 3 ghost(2 with full energy) to kill an ultralisk, 3 ghost cost 600/300.
Yes ghost beat both ultralisk and broodlords, but why is this such a shock???? they cost more than then both of them, and they have to sit for a couple mins to get full energy, and they have to be microed like a madman, and once out of energy ghosts are useless in a big fight. Like of course they should beat zerg late game units that cost less then them and require way less micro. Zerg has to scout late game (i know big shock) and go banelings instead of infestor if they go ghost. (make tanks unsiege with broodlords then roll ghosts with banes, and remax instant on cheap banes.)
I never all ined b4 emp nerf, now I am forced to 1/1/1 everyother game vs toss to keep a consistent win ratio.
Looks like im going to have to learn all ins vs zerg cause terran won't stand a chance late game without snipe.
At least I will always have tvt for macro games.
A broodlord costs 300/250, not 300/200. 150 min 150 gas for corruptor/150 min 100 gas for broodlord. this makes it more expensive than 2 ghosts, 100 min vs 50 gas lategame, gas is more important.
What do you mean that broodlords and ultralisks cost less than ghosts? 3 ghosts cost more than 1 ultralisk, how is that a logical statement? I don't get it, so 2 ultralisk cost more than 4 ghost? You just choose x number of a unit and say that they combined cost more than one other unit.
Dude lol, im describing how many ghosts it takes to kill ultra. 2 ultra cost 600/400 but it takes 6 ghost to kill 2 ultra which is 1200/600 lol so like double, my point being ya you nubs see snipe killing ultras and broodlords, but ya obviously because i paid more for the ghosts they should win the fight. not counting amp needed and everything else ghosts are balanced, unless you wanna make the agrument that they shouldnt counter both broodlords and ultras but with tech switching being so ez for zerg terran needs an all around unit. Also ghost is terran best late game unit why is it a shock that terrans best late game unit counters zerg best late game units?? It goes toss>terran>zerg in regards to unit strength, yes bl/utlra is weaker then the right number of ghosts but zerg should have more bl/ultra than terran has ghosts unless terran is ahead.
You're describing how many ghosts are required to obliterate one unit, I mean no trade is happening, you still have all your ghosts remaining (with low energy that will regen over time). I'm totally fine with x number of ghosts, of a greater cost than one other unit, killing that one other unit. If you're trying to describe how the cost of ghosts compare to zerg in order to win against an ultralisk/broodlord, though, you're doing it wrong. You conclude that ghosts are of a greater cost than another unit based upon one utility (snipe) of the ghosts 3 utilities. Ghosts can do more than snipe. When you compare the cost to win a 1v1 battle unit vs unit there is always going to be very non-interesting results. Roach vs Hellion, 'oh my 3 hellions can't even beat 1 Roach eventhough they cost more'.
3 helions can beat 1 roach so ur whole point is invalid. My point is that ghosts vs zerg late game are all about snipe that is their main attack. And if I emp i cant snipe. And when I run out of snipes in a big a battle those ghosts are essentially dead. So yes they counter various units but in order to attack they have to be constantly microed and kept with energy.
How childish, 2 Hellions still lose to 1 Roach and they are still more of an investment than 1 Roach. So no, my whole point is not invalid. I can give you another in fact, 2 Reapers lose to 1 Roach eventhough the cost of the Reapers are greater. You don't hear people complaining about 1v1 Hellion vs Roach or Reaper vs Roach fights. You can't compare the cost of units beating eachother in a closed 1v1 fight, you just use a flawed logic. I am not saying that this is a fine nerf and that Blizzard made the right choice, cause I don't have the info to do so yet. I know for certain though, that comparing the cost of units beating eachother like you did, is not the right way of approaching it.
On February 12 2012 02:57 ChriseC wrote: i would like to see nerfs on all lategame compositions, since i feal all races fear other races lategame and this often results into a very undynamic gamedesign. especially zerg tries to cut alot of corners midgame to get a unbelieveable fast hive up i dont nessecarily think zergs lategame itself is the problem, but the way they reach it changed alot, just look at stephano: massupgraded lings with infestors into 13min hive, he said aswell that zvt is very simple and "easy".especially foreign players seem to have alot of problems playing against it since their play is alot more passive.
btw i recommend u to watch this
morrow vs leenock game 5
it shows that something lategame should be changed
the game goes on for nearly 50min but it seems like leenock never could attack the whole game long
ZzZZzzZZZzzZZ
The late game can be terrible but it's pretty map dependant.
Easy third, 2 chokes to take for 5 bases.
BTW what the hell was up with Leenock? Getting his BLs nuked not once but twice...
On February 12 2012 02:57 ChriseC wrote: i would like to see nerfs on all lategame compositions, since i feal all races fear other races lategame and this often results into a very undynamic gamedesign. especially zerg tries to cut alot of corners midgame to get a unbelieveable fast hive up i dont nessecarily think zergs lategame itself is the problem, but the way they reach it changed alot, just look at stephano: massupgraded lings with infestors into 13min hive, he said aswell that zvt is very simple and "easy".especially foreign players seem to have alot of problems playing against it since their play is alot more passive.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i44.tinypic.com/25f7nud.png)
