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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 12 2012 01:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 01:04 poorcloud wrote:
Blizzard are reacting too quickly to changes. Just a few days ago, Genius showed how phoenixes work well against Nestea and they are buffing the phoenixes even more? Why can't they just wait for the game to develop?
Why make such huge changes to snipes when the only person who have been owning top korean zergs with turtle ghost strategy is MVP? Nerf MVP more than other terrans i suppose.... I am sure they are reacting to data they see, rather than single games in a tournament. The buff for phoenixes comes really late and will likely force the zerg to transition out of mutas, rather than stay on them the whole game. Plus the heavy cost will force protoss to skimp on colossi and storm, which is still needed. The upgrade and building are going to have similar gas costs to teching to colossi with range. Zerg are also going to have a really good window to tech out of mutas, since they will have such good scouting. Personally, I dislike that the game is forced into a base race and its a bummer that a single unit can it. It is not what I believe SC2 should be about. I think mutas should a strong harass option, but not a unit that you mass 60 supply in and then sit on it for the majority of the game.
While i agree we should be basing on statistics, i believe we have to be able to look beyond the data as well since the metagame is still really volatile and the players are not optimising their strategy yet. Genius did not do anything amazing with his phoenixes that is beyond the reach of other protoss players. He didn't have extra high APM or multitasking skills. He just used them right, and he made mutas look manageable from a protoss perspective.
It takes time for other protosses to learn how to deal with mutas that way, but genius showed that you could. I thus think we should let the game develop before making rash changes, at most very slight ones but i don't think these changes are slight at all!.
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On February 12 2012 01:25 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 01:21 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2012 01:04 poorcloud wrote:
Blizzard are reacting too quickly to changes. Just a few days ago, Genius showed how phoenixes work well against Nestea and they are buffing the phoenixes even more? Why can't they just wait for the game to develop?
Why make such huge changes to snipes when the only person who have been owning top korean zergs with turtle ghost strategy is MVP? Nerf MVP more than other terrans i suppose.... I am sure they are reacting to data they see, rather than single games in a tournament. The buff for phoenixes comes really late and will likely force the zerg to transition out of mutas, rather than stay on them the whole game. Plus the heavy cost will force protoss to skimp on colossi and storm, which is still needed. The upgrade and building are going to have similar gas costs to teching to colossi with range. Zerg are also going to have a really good window to tech out of mutas, since they will have such good scouting. Personally, I dislike that the game is forced into a base race and its a bummer that a single unit can it. It is not what I believe SC2 should be about. I think mutas should a strong harass option, but not a unit that you mass 60 supply in and then sit on it for the majority of the game. While i agree we should be basing on statistics, i believe we have to be able to look beyond the data as well since the metagame is still really volatile and the players are not optimising their strategy yet. Genius did not do anything amazing with his phoenixes that is beyond the reach of other protoss players. He didn't have extra high APM or multitasking skills. He just used them right, and he made mutas look manageable from a protoss perspective. It takes time for other protosses to learn how to deal with mutas that way, but genius showed that you could. I thus think we should let the game develop before making rash changes, at most very slight ones but i don't think these changes are slight at all!.
But that game doesnt serve as a prime example of how to deal with mutas, especially cause Nestea was behind after that failed 6pool.
This upgrade is to prevent bs builds like Destiny does. He puts down 40 spine crawlers and makes only mutas.
How the a Protoss will counter that? You need colossus. Good luck making colossus while having to tech to templar. And if you move out of your base, its pretty much gg.
Thats what blizzard is trying to avoid.
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On February 12 2012 01:25 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 01:21 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2012 01:04 poorcloud wrote:
Blizzard are reacting too quickly to changes. Just a few days ago, Genius showed how phoenixes work well against Nestea and they are buffing the phoenixes even more? Why can't they just wait for the game to develop?
Why make such huge changes to snipes when the only person who have been owning top korean zergs with turtle ghost strategy is MVP? Nerf MVP more than other terrans i suppose.... I am sure they are reacting to data they see, rather than single games in a tournament. The buff for phoenixes comes really late and will likely force the zerg to transition out of mutas, rather than stay on them the whole game. Plus the heavy cost will force protoss to skimp on colossi and storm, which is still needed. The upgrade and building are going to have similar gas costs to teching to colossi with range. Zerg are also going to have a really good window to tech out of mutas, since they will have such good scouting. Personally, I dislike that the game is forced into a base race and its a bummer that a single unit can it. It is not what I believe SC2 should be about. I think mutas should a strong harass option, but not a unit that you mass 60 supply in and then sit on it for the majority of the game. While i agree we should be basing on statistics, i believe we have to be able to look beyond the data as well since the metagame is still really volatile and the players are not optimising their strategy yet. Genius did not do anything amazing with his phoenixes that is beyond the reach of other protoss players. He didn't have extra high APM or multitasking skills. He just used them right, and he made mutas look manageable from a protoss perspective. It takes time for other protosses to learn how to deal with mutas that way, but genius showed that you could. I thus think we should let the game develop before making rash changes, at most very slight ones but i don't think these changes are slight at all!.
I don't think the decision is rash. Protoss have always feared mutas and their harassment. However, zergs never developed builds that allowed them to teching to mutas without significant risk. One of the main ways I dealt with mutas was killing the zerg before they got to many. But that seems to have changed with the meta game and now we can see them in almost any game.
I am ok with adding late game upgrades for units that lose their luster. I like the one for hydras they are maybe adding in HotS. If they wanted to add one for terran, I would be ok with that too. It opens up more options in the game, which is always good.
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I am ok with adding late game upgrades for units that lose their luster. I like the one for hydras they are maybe adding in HotS. If they wanted to add one for terran, I would be ok with that too. It opens up more options in the game, which is always good.
I think this is part of the reasoning behind the battle hellion, a way to make them more than a disposable harass option but actually a stable part of your army that can contribute into the mid and late game.
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So, we wont gona see this again... so bad
![[image loading]](http://i44.tinypic.com/25f7nud.png)
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On February 12 2012 01:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 00:49 Hantak wrote:
The zerg can remax in about 40 seconds with either broodlord-infestors ling bling or could switch to ultralisk-infestor ling bling.
Given how you cannot really scout this coming until the units are on the field Terran has no real way to prepare for it unless you gamble and build counters preemtivelly.
Although most zerg units have build times under 40 seconds, none of those units take up more than 2 supply. This means that were a zerg to remax in under 40 seconds, he would need to do so in one wave. Assuming that the zerg has 75 drones, that leaves 125 supply to remax. Even if the zerg remaxed on roaches, which is not common vs terran(and not good), it would take: 63(ish) larve!!!!!! That would require 10 hatcheries(or some serious larve banking)!!! It would take 120 larve or more with zerglings !!! I will just assume they are getting a mix of units and say its round 70-80!!! If this is happening to you and you are facing max 200 zerg armies 40 seconds apart, I will wager you are playing the game wrong. Or your opponents have been cheating. Or your claim is unfounded and does not resemble reality in any way. I understand that terrans are having a tough time ramping up to the late game. However, I am getting tired of these posts quoting stats from single tournaments, carefully selected win rates or just inform that is just plain wrong. All followed up with "but Korean pros are fine. But I am not Korean or a pro, so it sucks for me and should change." Also, your use of bold in your posts only hurts your argument and kinda looks silly. You should avoid it in the future, or use it in the final comments.
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Not the kind of argument i was hoping to get but i guess any kind of response is good.
You could watch lots of replays on ZvT, truth is once zerg's maxs out larvae banking is not rare at all, the so called "300 food zerg push" is not unheard for you i hope, its not something uncommon, and its usually the way a zerg brakes a terran defense on most ("competent") levels of play.
I didnt mean to say a zerg can rebuild its whole 200-200 army in 40 seconds, but more like a huge portion of its army, the one thats lost on any engagement where the zerg army was not obliterated. On any kind of engagement(properly played) both sides will lose units, you should be producing units as this is going on, zerg's most common reinforcing unit is the ling wich takes 14-17? seconds to hatch and along with the creep mechanic can reinforce properly in about 30 seconds.
Still you avoided refering to the main idea of my post, wich can be found by reading some of the sentences highlighted using "bold", wich was the reason to use bold by the way.. im sorry that also caused some kind of itch to you.
I never quoted tournaments, stats nor (as you said) "carefully selected" win rates.
I only stated the current way a ZvT MU develops, and how hard it is for a Terran to deal with tech switches when we lack the production capabilities to keep up (to a degree ) with the other races.
If we didnt have the ghost to deal with both broodlords and ultras (also to a degree) Terrans late game macro flaws will make any MU (except TvT) almost impossible to win given how we cannot counter in time zerg tech switches as i cannot scan whats hatching inside a larva egg.
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On February 12 2012 00:41 iglocska wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 00:39 rogzardo wrote:On February 12 2012 00:36 SeaSwift wrote:On February 12 2012 00:34 rogzardo wrote:On February 12 2012 00:31 awesomoecalypse wrote:And Terran gets nerfed again...
I feel that every time that Terran uses a unit with innovation, people whine about how good and 'innovative' it is and needs to be nerfed lol.
To even use what they are nerfing, you need to be good at the game sure, but its just dis-hearting playing a race that is nerfed so consistently. any time you see a T3 unit, particularly a caster, being built en masse and effectively countering entire armies, its gonna get nerfed. the same thing happened when Destiny had success with mass infestor--Blizz wants casters to be support units for your army, not the core of your army. ...except the infestor got a buff, not a nerf. That's why I'm often playing zerg players with 12+ infestors. The most recent patch with Infestors in it included a nerf to Fungal Growth, and no buffs. Neural Parasite was also nerfed. Fungal damage got a huge buff. Infestor speed got a small nerf. I'd say they still come out way ahead. The fact that you see huge groups of infestors in lots of games tells the tale. Fungal damage was nerfed (from 36/47 to 30/40). The infestor speed nerf is actually a buff in most situations (they stopped getting ahead of roaches)
lol. Can't help but laugh at those 1a-ing zergs. The infestors aren't supposed to be in the same group as attacking units, ever. You're just making it more difficult when in fact there are like, what, more than 50% of gamers that have an empty hotkey near their main group? Try to use them, could help a ton.
On topic, i kinda agree that the broodlords are very badly designed, even blizzard said so (i think) but then we seriously need something to make them not rely too much on their f*****g turtling terran defense... they're clearly overpowered.
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woohoo this is honestly the best patch ever with mthe new maps and the very much needed changes....so happy <3
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That Terran Black March thing sounds so ridiculous haha :D
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On February 12 2012 01:58 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 00:41 iglocska wrote:On February 12 2012 00:39 rogzardo wrote:On February 12 2012 00:36 SeaSwift wrote:On February 12 2012 00:34 rogzardo wrote:On February 12 2012 00:31 awesomoecalypse wrote:And Terran gets nerfed again...
I feel that every time that Terran uses a unit with innovation, people whine about how good and 'innovative' it is and needs to be nerfed lol.
To even use what they are nerfing, you need to be good at the game sure, but its just dis-hearting playing a race that is nerfed so consistently. any time you see a T3 unit, particularly a caster, being built en masse and effectively countering entire armies, its gonna get nerfed. the same thing happened when Destiny had success with mass infestor--Blizz wants casters to be support units for your army, not the core of your army. ...except the infestor got a buff, not a nerf. That's why I'm often playing zerg players with 12+ infestors. The most recent patch with Infestors in it included a nerf to Fungal Growth, and no buffs. Neural Parasite was also nerfed. Fungal damage got a huge buff. Infestor speed got a small nerf. I'd say they still come out way ahead. The fact that you see huge groups of infestors in lots of games tells the tale. Fungal damage was nerfed (from 36/47 to 30/40). The infestor speed nerf is actually a buff in most situations (they stopped getting ahead of roaches) lol. Can't help but laugh at those 1a-ing zergs. The infestors aren't supposed to be in the same group as attacking units, ever. You're just making it more difficult when in fact there are like, what, more than 50% of gamers that have an empty hotkey near their main group? Try to use them, could help a ton.
Um...when the infestor speed change happened most pro zergs, including Idra, said it was a great change. The problem was not in battle, but move the armies around. The infestor would pull far ahead and needed to be microed back just to keep it with the rest of the army. Controling units is fine, but this change was just to keep the infestor from being naturally retarded.
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On February 12 2012 01:39 NeoGeoOdin wrote:So, we wont gona see this again... so bad While I do agree that ghost snipe was extremely strong and probably borderline too strong, I think the patch goes too far. In a situation like this, I never understood why zerg didn't change their unit composition when ghosts are on the field in that number. There are a lot of things that can handle ghosts... zerglings and banelings for example. This is real time strategy where you have to constantly counter your opponent. They go one unit, you go with a countering unit. The idea is not to climb the tech ladder and when you get to the top you're done. Most of the games that ended up in this situation was zerg trying to go in with nothing but broodlords when they should have been getting rid of supply slowly and transitioning into something that can handle ghosts. Ghosts are basically a direct counter to broodlords as pointed out right on blizzards website.
Taken right off blizzards website "The biggest strength of Brood Lords is their ability to create massive numbers of Broodlings. Take Brood Lords out instantly using ghosts and their snipe ability to prevent this."
I personally think they went a little to far with it.
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More Terran nerf :/ lategame's already trash, not sure what we're supposed to do in TvZ anyway; snipe let us be reasonably safe if we had great micro*** against both of the deadly techswitches, now we're forced to have more vikings or more marauders which make the Broodlord/Ultralisk sitationally that much harder to deal with. Though I'm not sure how the 25 +25 decreases the number of hits required so much, is it because it gets enemy armor subtracted from the damage twice?
I like the Phoenix change. Pretty obvious and straightforward in its' effectiveness, maybe they won't seem quite so fragile vs. mutaballs now.
The mule change doesn't really seem like it'll change much at all, since the boost you get when throwing down mules on the gold is almost awkwardly offsetting from your normal income anyway; though I guess it just depends on whether you know how to use it or not.
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On February 11 2012 20:57 shizna wrote:
i think the point a lot of people are still missing is just how weak terran late game is already.
HT and infestor = soft counter to almost every unit in the game
ghost = soft counter to zerg tier 3 and protoss.
(except after patch 1.4.3 where it will be a pathetic counter to zerg tier 3, although still ESSENTIAL because terran literally has nothing else even remotely useful against it)
raven = soft counter to a handful of units (eg vikings, thors) and decent air harrassment with turrets.
why make the weakest late game race SUBSTANTIALY weaker in both TvZ and TvP? didn't blizzard admit that zealots were too strong in late game TvP, and yet they still make them 75% more stronger against snipe?
When you state that ghosts are a 'soft counter' to zerg tier3 and protoss armies, and will not even be 'remotely useful' after the nerf you're not gonna prove anything. By exaggerating to that extent you're just gonna be looked upon as a whiner that has a great deal of bias to your played race.
Try to actually tell the truth of what you think will happen, exaggerating is not going to end up helping you when people play 3 different races and they can look through your bias.
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The Ghostchange is brutal. Ghost were useful against Marines, Banelings and Workers, too. They should change this to something like 25dmg - 25dmg vs. Non-Massive.
The MULE-Change is pointless. Why not to remove the Goldbases completely?
The Phoenixchange makes it esier to "counter" Mutalisks with Phoenixes (if you survive until you get the Fleet-Beacon). Until a certain number of Mutalisks, they get countered by Phoenixes with certain usage. So this change reduces the skillcap, too (bad thing  ).
Old APM-Tab back Yaaaaaaaaaaaay :D.
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It looks like Blizzard wants to constrict certain Units to just do 1-2 Things, witch makes the game less good, because we will see less creative stuff ... disappointment ...
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On February 12 2012 02:20 UeberFuerst wrote:The Ghostchange is brutal. Ghost were useful against Marines, Banelings and Workers, too. They should change this to something like 25dmg - 25dmg vs. Non-Massive. The MULE-Change is pointless. Why not to remove the Goldbases completely? The Phoenixchange makes it esier to "counter" Mutalisks with Phoenixes (if you survive until you get the Fleet-Beacon). Until a certain number of Mutalisks, they get countered by Phoenixes with certain usage. So this change reduces the skillcap, too (bad thing ). Old APM-Tab back Yaaaaaaaaaaaay :D. ---------- It looks like Blizzard wants to constrict certain Units to just do 1-2 Things, witch makes the game less good, because we will see less creative stuff ... disappointment ...
Wouldn't we see more diverse unit comps if each unit does less things?
So...more creative stuff?
Edit: I'm Zerg, and I saw this change and my jaw dropped. This is a massive nerf...and I feel bigger than it needed.
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Even as a zerg player I feel the snipe change is too drastic.
Edit : The suggestion of changing the damage snipes does only to massive (such affecting only broodlords and ultralisks) I see a lot of people make is the smartest thing they could do imo.
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On February 12 2012 02:26 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 02:20 UeberFuerst wrote:The Ghostchange is brutal. Ghost were useful against Marines, Banelings and Workers, too. They should change this to something like 25dmg - 25dmg vs. Non-Massive. The MULE-Change is pointless. Why not to remove the Goldbases completely? The Phoenixchange makes it esier to "counter" Mutalisks with Phoenixes (if you survive until you get the Fleet-Beacon). Until a certain number of Mutalisks, they get countered by Phoenixes with certain usage. So this change reduces the skillcap, too (bad thing ). Old APM-Tab back Yaaaaaaaaaaaay :D. ---------- It looks like Blizzard wants to constrict certain Units to just do 1-2 Things, witch makes the game less good, because we will see less creative stuff ... disappointment ... Wouldn't we see more diverse unit comps if each unit does less things? So...more creative stuff? Edit: I'm Zerg, and I saw this change and my jaw dropped. This is a massive nerf...and I feel bigger than it needed.
No. The opposite in fact. Units that can kinda get the job done in multiple roles allow room for creativity. Units that all specialise in doing an amazing job in one area lead to hard counter - OMG you build this so I'll build this - death ball til perfect composition bullshit.
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I think a misconception is people seeing someone snipe all of zergs late game broodlords or ultras and thinking thats op, but in order to have enough ghosts and support to do that the terran has to be ahead. Also ghosts are terrans best late game unit.
A broodlord costs 300/200 to build, its takes 2 ghost(1 with full energy) to kill a brood lord, 2 ghost cost 400/200.
An ultralisk costs 300/200 to build, it takes 3 ghost(2 with full energy) to kill an ultralisk, 3 ghost cost 600/300.
Yes ghost beat both ultralisk and broodlords, but why is this such a shock???? they cost more than then both of them, and they have to sit for a couple mins to get full energy, and they have to be microed like a madman, and once out of energy ghosts are useless in a big fight. Like of course they should beat zerg late game units that cost less then them and require way less micro. Zerg has to scout late game (i know big shock) and go banelings instead of infestor if they go ghost. (make tanks unsiege with broodlords then roll ghosts with banes, and remax instant on cheap banes.)
I never all ined b4 emp nerf, now I am forced to 1/1/1 everyother game vs toss to keep a consistent win ratio.
Looks like im going to have to learn all ins vs zerg cause terran won't stand a chance late game without snipe.
At least I will always have tvt for macro games.
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I think the snipe change is brilliant...it'll help get rid of those infestors so you can use your vikings on Broodlords without getting the flock of them fungaled. (sp?) The phoenix range seems a bit iffy to me, considering the insane investment, and Zerg's natural ability to tech switch on a dime. It sounds cool on paper, but a fleet beacon is crazy expensive itself, not including the upgrade cost/time. We shall see, I suppose.
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On February 12 2012 02:03 p1cKLes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 01:39 NeoGeoOdin wrote:So, we wont gona see this again... so bad While I do agree that ghost snipe was extremely strong and probably borderline too strong, I think the patch goes too far. In a situation like this, I never understood why zerg didn't change their unit composition when ghosts are on the field in that number. There are a lot of things that can handle ghosts... zerglings and banelings for example. This is real time strategy where you have to constantly counter your opponent. They go one unit, you go with a countering unit. The idea is not to climb the tech ladder and when you get to the top you're done. Most of the games that ended up in this situation was zerg trying to go in with nothing but broodlords when they should have been getting rid of supply slowly and transitioning into something that can handle ghosts. Ghosts are basically a direct counter to broodlords as pointed out right on blizzards website. Taken right off blizzards website "The biggest strength of Brood Lords is their ability to create massive numbers of Broodlings. Take Brood Lords out instantly using ghosts and their snipe ability to prevent this." I personally think they went a little to far with it.
The website also says "take out dangerous units such as siege tanks and collosi with neural parasite" can't do that anymore with the range nerf. Just putting that out there since you seem to want to nitpick everything.
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EPT
