EPTPatch 1.4.3 - Preview Blog - Page 144
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay. Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. | ||
|
MrF
United States320 Posts
| ||
|
snakeeyez
United States1231 Posts
| ||
|
Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
On February 12 2012 02:36 -Duderino- wrote: I think a misconception is people seeing someone snipe all of zergs late game broodlords or ultras and thinking thats op, but in order to have enough ghosts and support to do that the terran has to be ahead. Also ghosts are terrans best late game unit. A broodlord costs 300/200 to build, its takes 2 ghost(1 with full energy) to kill a brood lord, 2 ghost cost 400/200. An ultralisk costs 300/200 to build, it takes 3 ghost(2 with full energy) to kill an ultralisk, 3 ghost cost 600/300. Yes ghost beat both ultralisk and broodlords, but why is this such a shock???? they cost more than then both of them, and they have to sit for a couple mins to get full energy, and they have to be microed like a madman, and once out of energy ghosts are useless in a big fight. Like of course they should beat zerg late game units that cost less then them and require way less micro. You are trying to make a logical argument. Don't. In many replies here it clearly states that "T2 ghosts shouldn't beat T3 ultras and bl". Apparently, it has to be only T1 (lings vs thors) or any unit (that can shoot up vs BC) that can beat T3. Not T2. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
|
RaiZ
2813 Posts
On February 12 2012 02:02 Plansix wrote: Um...when the infestor speed change happened most pro zergs, including Idra, said it was a great change. The problem was not in battle, but move the armies around. The infestor would pull far ahead and needed to be microed back just to keep it with the rest of the army. Controling units is fine, but this change was just to keep the infestor from being naturally retarded. Of course if you're moving units from far away you were getting this problem. But then you could have them follow said armies... but oh wait, nevermind, it takes too much apm and another control group... maybe I'm getting a little too harsh but it seriously kills me too see so many players that don't even use more than 1 control group. Oh yeah btw, the protoss upgrade is kinda useless from my pov. I'd rather throw down another stargate and make more phoenix instead of relying on a fleet beacon upgrade because it more reactionary? The game of genius and his good use of phoenix wasn't due because of his scouting keys that helped him a lot? | ||
|
Qbyx
Romania210 Posts
On February 12 2012 02:45 snakeeyez wrote: My prediction is terrans start to drop in rankings to some zerg and protoss. I think terran with snipe changes is weaker then protoss and zerg now. This game just has so much imbalance you change snipe and then tons of crap breaks because it was barely balanced to begin with because the unit designs were a mess from the start. Its like a watered down messier version of brood war. You sounds so confident, I bet you have in depth knowledge & experience about game design. <I should write something constructiv, but in this case I can't> User was warned for this post | ||
|
ChriseC
Germany440 Posts
i dont nessecarily think zergs lategame itself is the problem, but the way they reach it changed alot, just look at stephano: massupgraded lings with infestors into 13min hive, he said aswell that zvt is very simple and "easy".especially foreign players seem to have alot of problems playing against it since their play is alot more passive. btw i recommend u to watch this morrow vs leenock game 5 it shows that something lategame should be changed the game goes on for nearly 50min but it seems like leenock never could attack the whole game long ZzZZzzZZZzzZZ | ||
|
keyStorm
Canada316 Posts
it lost alot of its use! The good point i see with this change though is that we'll have to give a try with bunkers+durable materials+slot upgrade in the mid-game. How about a turtle kind of push? Backed up with tanks and vikings later on? | ||
|
Qbyx
Romania210 Posts
On February 12 2012 02:51 Jarree wrote: You are trying to make a logical argument. Don't. In many replies here it clearly states that "T2 ghosts shouldn't beat T3 ultras and bl". Apparently, it has to be only T1 (lings vs thors) or any unit (that can shoot up vs BC) that can beat T3. Not T2. Stop feeding a guy <troll> who's cring about game balance, without knowing at least the cost of the BroodLord. | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 12 2012 02:57 ChriseC wrote: i would like to see nerfs on all lategame compositions, since i feal all races fear other races lategame and this often results into a very undynamic gamedesign. especially zerg tries to cut alot of corners midgame to get a unbelieveable fast hive up i dont nessecarily think zergs lategame itself is the problem, but the way they reach it changed alot, just look at stephano: massupgraded lings with infestors into 13min hive, he said aswell that zvt is very simple and "easy".especially foreign players seem to have alot of problems playing against it since their play is alot more passive. 13min Hive-->15min Ultras... compared to 10min Colossus/Thor this seems pretty slow. | ||
|
Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
| ||
|
duct_TAPE
492 Posts
On February 12 2012 02:36 -Duderino- wrote: I think a misconception is people seeing someone snipe all of zergs late game broodlords or ultras and thinking thats op, but in order to have enough ghosts and support to do that the terran has to be ahead. Also ghosts are terrans best late game unit. A broodlord costs 300/200 to build, its takes 2 ghost(1 with full energy) to kill a brood lord, 2 ghost cost 400/200. An ultralisk costs 300/200 to build, it takes 3 ghost(2 with full energy) to kill an ultralisk, 3 ghost cost 600/300. Yes ghost beat both ultralisk and broodlords, but why is this such a shock???? they cost more than then both of them, and they have to sit for a couple mins to get full energy, and they have to be microed like a madman, and once out of energy ghosts are useless in a big fight. Like of course they should beat zerg late game units that cost less then them and require way less micro. Zerg has to scout late game (i know big shock) and go banelings instead of infestor if they go ghost. (make tanks unsiege with broodlords then roll ghosts with banes, and remax instant on cheap banes.) I never all ined b4 emp nerf, now I am forced to 1/1/1 everyother game vs toss to keep a consistent win ratio. Looks like im going to have to learn all ins vs zerg cause terran won't stand a chance late game without snipe. At least I will always have tvt for macro games. A broodlord costs 300/250, not 300/200. 150 min 150 gas for corruptor/150 min 100 gas for broodlord. this makes it more expensive than 2 ghosts, 100 min vs 50 gas lategame, gas is more important. What do you mean that broodlords and ultralisks cost less than ghosts? 3 ghosts cost more than 1 ultralisk, how is that a logical statement? I don't get it, so 2 ultralisk cost more than 4 ghost? You just choose x number of a unit and say that they combined cost more than one other unit. | ||
|
Tachyon
Denmark146 Posts
| ||
|
SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On February 12 2012 02:55 Qbyx wrote: You sounds so confident, I bet you have in depth knowledge & experience about game design. <I should write something constructiv, but in this case I can't> Well it's already starting, hes just extrapolating, not that crazy to anyone who views a decent amount of Starcraft. Code S has already seen a number mainstay Terrans get completely obliterated, MKP, NaDa, Clyde just to name a few. There hasn't been a foreign Terran tournament win since TSL3 and ThorZain, what a year ago? Terran continues to dwindle in the player base where most people find it lucky to get matched against Terran 1/10 times. Even if they exist, they sure as hell aren't playing 1v1. Terran is increasingly becoming a race exclusive for tip top players like MVP and MMA. We've seen near top terrans like TLO switch because it just takes way too much to become the best with Terran, the threshold for mechanical ability to be a pro is considerably above zerg and protoss. Terran dominance was already on it's way out, as most people in the community realized, these charges are just way too harsh and a slap in the face to us lesser Terran players who have struggled for months now but keep receiving nerfs every patch. | ||
|
Torra
Norway469 Posts
| ||
|
-FullySaturatedTV-
United States4 Posts
On February 12 2012 03:10 Torra wrote: I think what the real problem is is that terran doesn't have as good T3 as the other races for lategame. Sure, ghosts are really strong, but without them terran has nothing against lategame high tech compositions. I think everyone would agree that if terran got buffed in another way for lategame, the snipe change would be ok. Maybe buff BCs or ravens a bit? BCs and Ravens are fine. It's just that Terran's T2 and T1 is good enough to carry the weight and is more supply efficient. If you were to buff Terran T3, it would be too strong. | ||
|
GeNeSiDe
United Kingdom354 Posts
We need something realistic to fight ultras without snipe, and making our T3 unit reasonable is not a bad idea.. Using 1 SC every 3 minutes or w/e is just ridiculous. **** you thorzain for getting thors nerfed! | ||
|
-Duderino-
United States80 Posts
On February 12 2012 03:04 duct_TAPE wrote: A broodlord costs 300/250, not 300/200. 150 min 150 gas for corruptor/150 min 100 gas for broodlord. this makes it more expensive than 2 ghosts, 100 min vs 50 gas lategame, gas is more important. What do you mean that broodlords and ultralisks cost less than ghosts? 3 ghosts cost more than 1 ultralisk, how is that a logical statement? I don't get it, so 2 ultralisk cost more than 4 ghost? You just choose x number of a unit and say that they combined cost more than one other unit. Dude lol, im describing how many ghosts it takes to kill ultra. 2 ultra cost 600/400 but it takes 6 ghost to kill 2 ultra which is 1200/600 lol so like double, my point being ya you nubs see snipe killing ultras and broodlords, but ya obviously because i paid more for the ghosts they should win the fight. not counting amp needed and everything else ghosts are balanced, unless you wanna make the agrument that they shouldnt counter both broodlords and ultras but with tech switching being so ez for zerg terran needs an all around unit. Also ghost is terran best late game unit why is it a shock that terrans best late game unit counters zerg best late game units?? It goes toss>terran>zerg in regards to unit strength, yes bl/utlra is weaker then the right number of ghosts but zerg should have more bl/ultra than terran has ghosts unless terran is ahead. | ||
|
duct_TAPE
492 Posts
On February 12 2012 03:10 Torra wrote: I think what the real problem is is that terran doesn't have as good T3 as the other races for lategame. Sure, ghosts are really strong, but without them terran has nothing against lategame high tech compositions. I think everyone would agree that if terran got buffed in another way for lategame, the snipe change would be ok. Maybe buff BCs or ravens a bit? The ghosts are still in the game, they are still a strong good unit. It sounds a lot like they have removed the unit from the game after reading your comment. I would say a nerf to ghosts snipe against massive units, while still keeping the dmg against everything else would be a reasonable tuning. | ||
|
bLo0d
58 Posts
The nerf is unnecessary. 25 damage for 25 energy that u have to micro every shot for on a gas unit is just silly. Ghosts kill T3 with enough numbers. T3 kill non-ghost armies in enough numbers. It is simply a wobbly scale of who is just that little bit ahead because once u tip the scale in your favor in that ghost marine tank vs max - remax ling infestor+ T3 zerg army, you most likely will win the game. There are several cases where snipes were either not enough or did not kill fast enough that Terran gets overwhelmed with the constant remax. Then there are times where Terran has a great engagement and pulls infinitely ahead that no remax will ever save the zerg. Also, those games where the final battle is won by ghosts vs zerg, people tend to just overlook the entire duration of the game before that point. They just like to look at the final battle, and regardless of who outplayed who, since ghosts won the fight at the end, ghosts are imbalanced. I'm surprised Blizzard made such a short sighted move, oh ghosts win the final battle sometimes, nerf them. Brood lord infestor wins the final battle too sometimes. Sometimes a Protoss deathball off turtling all game wins the game. It's not just ghosts, not to mention the tanks behind them, the marines behind them. It's all a synergy of units that make up a powerful late game composition. Sometimes you win with them, sometimes you don't. | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 12 2012 03:03 Aveng3r wrote: ugh, hate this patch. A terran race that feels like it was allready balanced for pro level play just got even harder for the average player to use The average player didn't/couldn't use snipe properly before and vikings/marauders (or just split out marine tank and you are fine vs ultralisks anyways, like a lot of pros that never build marauders vs ultralisks) were the better choice to begin with in those scenarios. That's the worst part about all the Terran whine here: I'm Master Zerg and 90% of the Terrans don't even use mass Ghost lategame or just lose it to banelings to begin with (without even trying to snipe banelings 50/25 killed per click seems pretty strong to me). This patch won't change anything for the average Terran player (and for a lot of pro Terrans like MMA that are relying on vikings and marauders to begin with). The few people here who will disagree because they actually use ghosts properly in ZvT endgame will have a harder time, but I'm pretty certain that they are at the level to easily relearn their anti brood/ultra play (because it is possible, as shown in numerous games by numerous players), like zergs had to relearn their anti deathball play after NP and baneling drop nerfs... (Damn I miss my baneling drops  )The only thing that will really change is that reaching 20ghosts won't be the counter to Roaches/Infestors/Ultralisks/Broodlords/Mutalisks/Corruptors/(Queens/Hydralisks) while still being costefficient against banelings and therefore put a Terran that achieves this in the "superlategame" in a nearly unloseable position. Ghosts will still be good(better) vs Infestors and Snipe and sniping with the few ghosts that you still can/should go for will still be OK vs Broodlords (still one shot less than ultralisks need before the patch) and Corruptors and add good dps vs anything that is as big/bigger than a roach. Snipe will just not be the main use of Ghosts anymore for Pros. | ||
| ||
