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Patch 1.4.3 - Preview Blog - Page 142

Forum Index > SC2 General
4449 CommentsPost a Reply
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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.

Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions.
ElvisTek
Profile Joined August 2011
Venezuela169 Posts
February 11 2012 15:37 GMT
#2821
The snipe change will:

not work anymore as intended. It requires high APM and you can mess it up easily.
Will work only against ghosts, infestors, HT, queens.
For the rest, useless.

Ghosts then need a mineral cost decrease
Yep.. I'm noob :) and happy to be one!
rogzardo
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
610 Posts
February 11 2012 15:39 GMT
#2822
On February 12 2012 00:36 SeaSwift wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2012 00:34 rogzardo wrote:
On February 12 2012 00:31 awesomoecalypse wrote:
And Terran gets nerfed again...

I feel that every time that Terran uses a unit with innovation, people whine about how good and 'innovative' it is and needs to be nerfed lol.

To even use what they are nerfing, you need to be good at the game sure, but its just dis-hearting playing a race that is nerfed so consistently.


any time you see a T3 unit, particularly a caster, being built en masse and effectively countering entire armies, its gonna get nerfed. the same thing happened when Destiny had success with mass infestor--Blizz wants casters to be support units for your army, not the core of your army.



...except the infestor got a buff, not a nerf. That's why I'm often playing zerg players with 12+ infestors.



The most recent patch with Infestors in it included a nerf to Fungal Growth, and no buffs. Neural Parasite was also nerfed.


Fungal damage got a huge buff. Infestor speed got a small nerf. I'd say they still come out way ahead.

The fact that you see huge groups of infestors in lots of games tells the tale.
iglocska
Profile Joined May 2011
Norway589 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 15:42:29
February 11 2012 15:41 GMT
#2823
On February 12 2012 00:39 rogzardo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2012 00:36 SeaSwift wrote:
On February 12 2012 00:34 rogzardo wrote:
On February 12 2012 00:31 awesomoecalypse wrote:
And Terran gets nerfed again...

I feel that every time that Terran uses a unit with innovation, people whine about how good and 'innovative' it is and needs to be nerfed lol.

To even use what they are nerfing, you need to be good at the game sure, but its just dis-hearting playing a race that is nerfed so consistently.


any time you see a T3 unit, particularly a caster, being built en masse and effectively countering entire armies, its gonna get nerfed. the same thing happened when Destiny had success with mass infestor--Blizz wants casters to be support units for your army, not the core of your army.



...except the infestor got a buff, not a nerf. That's why I'm often playing zerg players with 12+ infestors.



The most recent patch with Infestors in it included a nerf to Fungal Growth, and no buffs. Neural Parasite was also nerfed.


Fungal damage got a huge buff. Infestor speed got a small nerf. I'd say they still come out way ahead.

The fact that you see huge groups of infestors in lots of games tells the tale.


Fungal damage was nerfed (from 36/47 to 30/40). The infestor speed nerf is actually a buff in most situations (they stopped getting ahead of roaches)
Edge717
Profile Joined February 2012
Argentina5 Posts
February 11 2012 15:44 GMT
#2824
--- Nuked ---
Hantak
Profile Joined April 2011
Chile59 Posts
February 11 2012 15:49 GMT
#2825
Although snipe is (not yet was) a very powerfull ability when you have lots of ghosts.. Truth is only few players where able to pull feats like that (taking out waves of broodlords and ultras properly supported by lings and infestors) on a "regular" basis. (not saying this shouldnt be like that)
Most of terran players have lots of trouble dealing with this army composition, and the ghost snipe ability is our only "viable" answer to deal with them properly. (as ill explain now)

You need to realize that what usually kills a terran player on the lategame ZvT MU is not the sole broodlord-infestor + ling blings or ultra-infestor + ling bling, but the tech switch among these two.
Lets say we take the ghost snipe out of the picture. How a Terran deals with broodlord infestors ling bling? you need well upgraded marines to deal with the broodlings and lings, need tanks to deal with banelings and to keep infestors fungal at bay, if you saw broodlords you should be building vikings right? WRONG, although vikings are good against broodlords given its range, they dont really do that well against corruptors nor mutas (wich are usually on the field), mix in the devastating effect fungal still has on air units and how easy they clump and you will see that on the field the "natural" counter does not play its role so well.
And, lets say, the terran got to deal properly with this army composition of the Zerg.
The zerg can remax in about 40 seconds with either broodlord-infestors ling bling or could switch to ultralisk-infestor ling bling.
Given how you cannot really scout this coming until the units are on the field Terran has no real way to prepare for it unless you gamble and build counters preemtivelly.

If you where preparing against a second wave of broodlords you would have kept pumping vikings and marines, but if the zerg switched towards ultras then you are really "effed".
Theres no way a terran could scout this in time and react properly, you need reactors to keep the rine production in the needed numbers, adding on techlabs for marauders would take way too long and the Z could always tech back to broodlords. Either way you would never be able to react in time.

Terran late game is lacking the production capabilities of the other 2 races, and changes like this are only making this issue more notorious.
If this goes trough, (wich i really hope it doesnt) we will notice how Terran late game wins will be even more rare.
Seems every change on the TvX MU's are forcing Terran players to do timing attacks and try to end the game before "X" army composition hits the field.
Is really that the way we should be playing our race?
It's getting too hot.
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
February 11 2012 15:53 GMT
#2826
I'm sure this has been asked already but I can't find it ._. does the Phoenix range upgrade affect Graviton beam too?
AcesAnoka
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium262 Posts
February 11 2012 15:54 GMT
#2827
On February 12 2012 00:53 Talin wrote:
I'm sure this has been asked already but I can't find it ._. does the Phoenix range upgrade affect Graviton beam too?

Nope.
masters terran eu
Provocateur
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1665 Posts
February 11 2012 15:58 GMT
#2828
The change to snipe will mean the death of ghost openings in TvT, kind of sad about that =(.
Bonkerz
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States831 Posts
February 11 2012 16:00 GMT
#2829
On February 11 2012 02:17 decaf wrote:
I don't like the snipe change at all, it's way too drastic. And looking at Genius' games I'm not sure if the phoenix buff was necessary either. If something Terran needed a buff vs toss late game.
I love the MULE and APM change though.

THIS, TvZ is like the most balenced matchup, but with this ghost change lategame is going to be crazy hard. And in TVP terran has such a hard time lategame. Terrans have to micro their army like insanely well otherwise we just get buttraped. Something needs to happen.
High masters terran streaming in 720p 60 FPS with commentary and analysis after every game twitch.tv/bonkerz1
Nightrain
Profile Joined August 2010
481 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 16:02:56
February 11 2012 16:02 GMT
#2830
i would have had no problem with the snipe nerf if zealots were psionic, sniping zealots saved my ass way too much :o
If at first you don't succeed, you fail.
Jek
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark2771 Posts
February 11 2012 16:03 GMT
#2831
Ghosts not being able to one-hit snipe Marines and Workers is just so thematically wrong. Balance be damned.
It's Elo not ELO - Every statiscian playing League
poorcloud
Profile Joined April 2011
Singapore2748 Posts
February 11 2012 16:04 GMT
#2832
Blizzard are reacting too quickly to changes. Just a few days ago, Genius showed how phoenixes work well against Nestea and they are buffing the phoenixes even more? Why can't they just wait for the game to develop?

Why make such huge changes to snipes when the only person who have been owning top korean zergs with turtle ghost strategy is MVP? Nerf MVP more than other terrans i suppose....
ooozer
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany231 Posts
February 11 2012 16:05 GMT
#2833
Blanket EMP Spam and Stutter Step is extremly demanding, yeah sure
antilyon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Brazil2546 Posts
February 11 2012 16:09 GMT
#2834
On February 12 2012 01:05 ooozer wrote:
Blanket EMP Spam and Stutter Step is extremly demanding, yeah sure

It isn't hard, but try to do it while you have another things to control at the same time.
Shockk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany2269 Posts
February 11 2012 16:11 GMT
#2835
On February 12 2012 01:05 ooozer wrote:
Blanket EMP Spam and Stutter Step is extremly demanding, yeah sure


You've obviously got a lot of high level terran lategame experience under your belt to dish out bold statements like that. We could generalize the same way by belittling Zerg players, but we don't. Stay civil.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 16:13:53
February 11 2012 16:12 GMT
#2836
On February 12 2012 00:49 Hantak wrote:
The zerg can remax in about 40 seconds with either broodlord-infestors ling bling or could switch to ultralisk-infestor ling bling.
Given how you cannot really scout this coming until the units are on the field Terran has no real way to prepare for it unless you gamble and build counters preemtivelly.



Although most zerg units have build times under 40 seconds, none of those units take up more than 2 supply. This means that were a zerg to remax in under 40 seconds, he would need to do so in one wave. Assuming that the zerg has 75 drones, that leaves 125 supply to remax. Even if the zerg remaxed on roaches, which is not common vs terran(and not good), it would take:

63(ish) larve!!!!!! That would require 10 hatcheries(or some serious larve banking)!!! It would take 120 larve or more with zerglings !!! I will just assume they are getting a mix of units and say its round 70-80!!!

If this is happening to you and you are facing max 200 zerg armies 40 seconds apart, I will wager you are playing the game wrong. Or your opponents have been cheating.

Or your claim is unfounded and does not resemble reality in any way. I understand that terrans are having a tough time ramping up to the late game. However, I am getting tired of these posts quoting stats from single tournaments, carefully selected win rates or just inform that is just plain wrong. All followed up with "but Korean pros are fine. But I am not Korean or a pro, so it sucks for me and should change."

Also, your use of bold in your posts only hurts your argument and kinda looks silly. You should avoid it in the future, or use it in the final comments.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 16:13:45
February 11 2012 16:13 GMT
#2837
double post....
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
February 11 2012 16:13 GMT
#2838
On February 12 2012 01:05 ooozer wrote:
Blanket EMP Spam and Stutter Step is extremly demanding, yeah sure


A lot of pro agreed that TvP engagements is the most micro demanding thing in the game...
Including Thorzain.
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
FatkiddsLag
Profile Joined May 2010
United States413 Posts
February 11 2012 16:19 GMT
#2839
Everyone is forgetting the main reason for this patch. They fixed the APM meter! Blizzard finally realized that they shouldn't fuck with something they didn't invent.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 11 2012 16:21 GMT
#2840
On February 12 2012 01:04 poorcloud wrote:
Blizzard are reacting too quickly to changes. Just a few days ago, Genius showed how phoenixes work well against Nestea and they are buffing the phoenixes even more? Why can't they just wait for the game to develop?

Why make such huge changes to snipes when the only person who have been owning top korean zergs with turtle ghost strategy is MVP? Nerf MVP more than other terrans i suppose....


I am sure they are reacting to data they see, rather than single games in a tournament. The buff for phoenixes comes really late and will likely force the zerg to transition out of mutas, rather than stay on them the whole game. Plus the heavy cost will force protoss to skimp on colossi and storm, which is still needed. The upgrade and building are going to have similar gas costs to teching to colossi with range. Zerg are also going to have a really good window to tech out of mutas, since they will have such good scouting.

Personally, I dislike that the game is forced into a base race and its a bummer that a single unit can it. It is not what I believe SC2 should be about. I think mutas should a strong harass option, but not a unit that you mass 60 supply in and then sit on it for the majority of the game.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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