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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 12 2012 04:18 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 04:12 ohampatu wrote:On February 12 2012 04:08 UmiNotsuki wrote:As a Zerg player I'm good with this. I couldn't keep up with Terran players with ANY composition once they got enough tanks/thors/ghosts on the field so I often felt lost in games, so it's good to see that T3 is gonna be more helpful now. Phoenix range seems like an odd change. Phoenix already counter mutalisks super hard, the reason players don't often build them as a reaction to mutalisks is because they're very, very expensive in terms of opportunity cost. This range upgrade will probably make reactive phoenix a LITTLE more useful, but frankly it's just gonna mean the Zerg player will attack random places with mutas and just deal some damage while the phoenix are on their way. Once mutas reach a large enough number they'll still be able to pretty much indefinitely deny a third, with ling support. Still game ending. This works for me  MULE change is obvious and needed. No. Reactionary Phoenix is impossible currently and will still be impossible. If you scout muta, you can not throw down a stargate and make muta and be able to defend, you will still always be stuck on 2 base. The change is very good for stargate openers. The range upgrade comes from fleet beacon so it wont come into play untill late game if it ever does. Not a bad change, but not the greatest change. Wont fix the issue but might make stargate openings or air play into late game more valid. Have to see. But I could def see some new rush to FB builds coming out of this since MS is so good vs Zerg too. You can have a FB by 9 min that's about when mutas come.
Yes. That addresses our ability to kill muta. It doesn't give us a 'reaction' to muta because the upgrade is soo far away. Putting that much into a handfull of phoenix wont be worth it.
And the real issue with playing vs muta is being able to expand. We will have to see if this helps, i dont think it will, but who knows. So far imo blizzard has done good with its patches (apart from taking forever), none of them game changing but all molding the game into a better game.
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Good patch, although, I may not be a high level player but I don't see what help the pheonix upgrade will give, it will only help against muta's which i thought of as a midgame strategy, if you have reached the late game and are against a huge flock of muta's chances are you can just walk in and kill there base and leave a few templer at home, and if its only a few muta's they arent much of a threat anyway.
and if i did rush for the upgrade for the midgame all the Z would have to do is tech switch and I would have some rather unhelpful pheonex's and slower templar/collos tech against a army of raoches running at my base!
I am probably wrong as i am a bit of a noob :p but thats my take!
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On February 12 2012 04:15 ohampatu wrote:
In TvZ it will still counter Broods as well as it has, but it wont counter the ultra switch now, which is fine because the only Ultra strat is the famous 'transition into ultras and lose strat'. The ghost shouldn't be a counter all unit, it now has all the same utilities it had before, they are just harder to do and require more work and aren't as effective.
No more shift clicking with your mouse wheel to kill everything. A CD may have been a better change, but this change doesn't break the unit by any means.
I think you are stretching the meaning quite a bit. I'd hope that when something gets nerfed by 67%, it's not the same as before.
The problem is, you need the ghost to soften the tech switching of t3 for zerg, since that's basically how the whole tech of terran works. You get unit combination that doesn't leave you "to bad" against any combo that hte opponent throws at you, and then you add on a few extra units that help against exactly what hte opponent is doing. The ghost along with marines were the core combination of units and then you added either rauders or vikings to specially help counter what the opponent had.
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Well Terran is quickly disappearing from ladder. If you check sc2ranks.com T is by far the least played race above silver (at least in EU). Platinum and diamond have only ~27% T (excluding random), masters ~29%. I'm sure the top100 T players in
the world will find new all-ins and timings to keep their winrate up. Every one else which is like a million players is fucked up.
edit: typo
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On February 12 2012 04:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
They're fixing the wrong thing about the Phoenix.
Giving phoenix +1 range in the late game is not going to make them slightly better vs mutas, it's going to make them unstoppable.
If they would just give Phoenix +1 base armor, they would be slightly better vs mutas (while still allowing for 30 2/2 mutas to win a fight vs 6 0/0 phoenix) AND they would be more useful in PvT as marines wouldn't burn them down so fast.
The way they're heading, mutas are going to be completely useless in ZvP.
As far as the ghost nerf, not only is that also a horrible idea, but their justification for doing so is equally bad. Do the math on their Ultralisk numbers and cry as you realize that Blizz doesn't even know why they're making the change.
+2 range. 6 is that of a stalker. DOUBLE the distance of Mutas now. But your missing one thing. When there is no stargate on the field. Catching the opponent off guard is still going to be very strong. And if your Zerg and see stargate after this patch. You are right then you won't make them. So it's all good, I invest in a unit to counter Mutas (that are supposed to). You quit making them or never start. I invest in robo for a timing attack. You go Mutas. It's like the change never happened. Although you are also right. 6 0-0 but with fleet beacon upgrade Phoenix will WRECK 30 2-2 Mutas without taking a single shot. AWWWEESSOOMMMEEE!!!!
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Wow. Some big changes. My opinion
MULE on gold minz --> Excellent decision IMO. Everyone was saying how much Terran benefitted more from gold bases than all other races due to MULEs. I like that I can now take the gold at the same time as a Terran opponent and not have to worry that he will shoot way ahead of me.
Phoenix range upgrade --> while as a Protoss player I will always favour a buff to my race, I'm not so sure how this will affect PvZ. I'm hoping it won't make a huge difference in that it makes Toss imba against Zerg, but at the same time I like that it will help me personally against those damn mutas that I hate so much
Ghost snipe --> I like this, sounds like a decent change. But I don't play as Terran or Zerg, so it doesn't affect me personally
APM --> YES! I CAN SPAM AGAIN!
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Quite interesting changes, tbh. Phoenix change will definitely help Toss to deal with those 40+ muta clumps which force a base race scenario. Mules finally get fixed, and Ghosts now won't be that effective vs Hive Tech to the extent of making it obsolete. Snipe is really damn good vs. both Ultras and Blords. Now it won't be that good, but it will still be quite useful against Infestors.
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On February 12 2012 04:09 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 04:04 Kakoon wrote:
Meh I'm not whining but I really hope BLIZ fixes BCs. Zerg can use all their tier 3 while protoss, collosus. Thors are good but it's like if you go T3 vs Zerg they neural it. Ghost fix?? Makes no sense to me. Why not just make the damage lower or have a cool down so you couldn't spam it. Mule change seems unnecessary as it won't change a thing. And how are terrans going to beat a ultra, brood, infestor ling comp now?? I saw a thread saying don't let Zerg do that?? That's stupid all races should have the same chance at all times. Like I say all the time, Terran units have to be strong, if not Terran macro mechanics are too fragile. It takes ALL Terran units to walk over to the base unlike Zerg who have creep advantage, and warp gates for toss.
I really disagree with nerfing so much. Instead if they buff units to counter it would seem like a big deal. But I still think ghost should have a cool down and decreased power. Mules don't make a difference.
How come every patch is Terran nerf?? Why not give Zerg buff?? It's discouraging to know that your race is getting nerfed all the time. I wouldn't mind other races getting buff, but come on... Blizzard seems to only care the whines not the argument To address your last paragraph. Blizzard gives Terran Nerfs because Terran needs them. They didn't give Zerg a buff because Zerg doesn't need one atm. I don't get your last sentence so can't mention for that. Mule change is not unnecessary, that's a huge change that's been needed. Now gold bases can be part of the meta game. Every change made makes compete sense. The only thing they didn't do was nerf infestor/brood, but they may want to to fix other issues to see how that changes the meta game.
I understand your statement, but you have to think in terrans side as well. That's what I'm talking about. If Terran is going mech vs toss and than he switches to heavy marine with some marauders with ghosts. The immortals are useless right? Then what toss does is transition to colossus. Now if toss has already got tech for blink he can also go for templars. But Terran has only one route in tvz. Vikings. Now with the ghost nerf terrans MUST get Vikings or risk stim marines. Do you
see? It's not that ghost nerf was unnecessary as it's pretty good maybe OP, but it took out the possibility of going a
different tech.
Also the nerf limits Terran strategies. Terrans could go ghosts in TvT to counter banshees and then snipe all bio and kill tanks with rauders, but now that's not possible.
But I don't mind really terrans are strong because we make new builds. I am certain raven is going to fill in the role of the ghost in the near future and BLIZ will realize just nerfing terrans won't work.
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I'm tired of seeing the" t1 isn't supposed to counter t3" excuse, you guys need to hire someone to think for you, what about battlecruisers being good for fuck all, geniuses?This level of stupidity makes my brain bleed.
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On February 12 2012 04:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
They're fixing the wrong thing about the Phoenix.
Giving phoenix +1 range in the late game is not going to make them slightly better vs mutas, it's going to make them unstoppable.
If they would just give Phoenix +1 base armor, they would be slightly better vs mutas (while still allowing for 30 2/2 mutas to win a fight vs 6 0/0 phoenix) AND they would be more useful in PvT as marines wouldn't burn them down so fast.
The way they're heading, mutas are going to be completely useless in ZvP.
As far as the ghost nerf, not only is that also a horrible idea, but their justification for doing so is equally bad. Do the math on their Ultralisk numbers and cry as you realize that Blizz doesn't even know why they're making the change.
How so. Corrupter and vikings still beat them easy cost for cost. I play toss and 5 range would have been better/more balanced but 4 is ridiculous. That advantage is completely gone if your talking mass mutas + splash they have. Pretty hard to kite them when they're devastating your base/econ. More range will force them to back off as it should be.
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On February 12 2012 04:23 Jarree wrote:
Well Terran is quickly disappearing from ladder. If you check sc2ranks.com T is by far the least played race above silver (at least in EU). Platinum and diamond have only ~27% T (excluding random), masters ~29%. I'm sure the top100 T players in
the world will find new all-ins and timings to keep their winrate up. Every one else which is like a million players is fucked up.
edit: typo
As if Terran wasn't already rare enough on the ladder 
I'm a high diamond Terran. At the very highest Korean level, who knows? Maybe Terran is still the strongest race.
Did Blizzard even consider that, with the launch race being Terran, the micro race being Terran, that maybe the best Koreans chose Terran.
I think a very small group of Koreans have distorted blizzards view of where the race is at.
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On February 12 2012 04:23 Jarree wrote:
Well Terran is quickly disappearing from ladder. If you check sc2ranks.com T is by far the least played race above silver (at least in EU). Platinum and diamond have only ~27% T (excluding random), masters ~29%. I'm sure the top100 T players in
the world will find new all-ins and timings to keep their winrate up. Every one else which is like a million players is fucked up.
edit: typo
And terran is the most popular race in GSL and korean ladder. What's your point?
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On February 12 2012 04:20 duct_TAPE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 03:58 Remi wrote:On February 12 2012 03:27 duct_TAPE wrote:On February 12 2012 03:13 -Duderino- wrote:On February 12 2012 03:04 duct_TAPE wrote:On February 12 2012 02:36 -Duderino- wrote:
I think a misconception is people seeing someone snipe all of zergs late game broodlords or ultras and thinking thats op, but in order to have enough ghosts and support to do that the terran has to be ahead. Also ghosts are terrans best late game unit.
A broodlord costs 300/200 to build, its takes 2 ghost(1 with full energy) to kill a brood lord, 2 ghost cost 400/200.
An ultralisk costs 300/200 to build, it takes 3 ghost(2 with full energy) to kill an ultralisk, 3 ghost cost 600/300.
Yes ghost beat both ultralisk and broodlords, but why is this such a shock???? they cost more than then both of them, and they have to sit for a couple mins to get full energy, and they have to be microed like a madman, and once out of energy ghosts are useless in a big fight. Like of course they should beat zerg late game units that cost less then them and require way less micro. Zerg has to scout late game (i know big shock) and go banelings instead of infestor if they go ghost. (make tanks unsiege with broodlords then roll ghosts with banes, and remax instant on cheap banes.)
I never all ined b4 emp nerf, now I am forced to 1/1/1 everyother game vs toss to keep a consistent win ratio.
Looks like im going to have to learn all ins vs zerg cause terran won't stand a chance late game without snipe.
At least I will always have tvt for macro games. A broodlord costs 300/250, not 300/200. 150 min 150 gas for corruptor/150 min 100 gas for broodlord. this makes it more expensive than 2 ghosts, 100 min vs 50 gas lategame, gas is more important. What do you mean that broodlords and ultralisks cost less than ghosts? 3 ghosts cost more than 1 ultralisk, how is that a logical statement? I don't get it, so 2 ultralisk cost more than 4 ghost? You just choose x number of a unit and say that they combined cost more than one other unit. Dude lol, im describing how many ghosts it takes to kill ultra. 2 ultra cost 600/400 but it takes 6 ghost to kill 2 ultra which is 1200/600 lol so like double, my point being ya you nubs see snipe killing ultras and broodlords, but ya obviously because i paid more for the ghosts they should win the fight. not counting amp needed and everything else ghosts are balanced, unless you wanna make the agrument that they shouldnt counter both broodlords and ultras but with tech switching being so ez for zerg terran needs an all around unit. Also ghost is terran best late game unit why is it a shock that terrans best late game unit counters zerg best late game units?? It goes toss>terran>zerg in regards to unit strength, yes bl/utlra is weaker then the right number of ghosts but zerg should have more bl/ultra than terran has ghosts unless terran is ahead. You're describing how many ghosts are required to obliterate one unit, I mean no trade is happening, you still have all your ghosts remaining (with low energy that will regen over time). I'm totally fine with x number of ghosts, of a greater cost than one other unit, killing that one other unit. If you're trying to describe how the cost of ghosts compare to zerg in order to win against an ultralisk/broodlord, though, you're doing it wrong. You conclude that ghosts are of a greater cost than another unit based upon one utility (snipe) of the ghosts 3 utilities. Ghosts can do more than snipe. When you compare the cost to win a 1v1 battle unit vs unit there is always going to be very non-interesting results. Roach vs Hellion, 'oh my 3 hellions can't even beat 1 Roach eventhough they cost more'. That would be a valid argument if hellions were used to counter roaches, but they don't, while ghosts are used as a counter to broodlords and ultralisks and one would expect counter unit to be cost-effective against unit it counter, after patch ghosts will not be cost effective against bl/ultra anymore, therefore will no longer be a counter unit which was his argument to begin with. I pick Roach vs Hellion because it is excessive and easier to make a point that way. Of course Hellions are not the answer to Roach. Picking up a real scenario. It is not cost efficient to be a zerg fighting against terran or protoss. Looking at the 'units lost' tab you'll often see that zerg has lost more even though you'll judge that the zerg has the right army composition, the right engagements and the game being approximately even. The game dosn't balance around cost efficiency. It just dosn't make much sense to factor in cost efficiency like he did in his argument, were he compares x number of ghost costs against x unit.
It's OK for zerg to be a little cost ineffective as long as they maintain economic lead enough to overcome that, thats exclusively zerg concept of "swarming" opponents, so, unless you're arguing that it is viable strategy for terran, we could agree that terran to win games against zerg have to be usually cost effective against zerg opponent, and I for one don't see cost effective composition against bl/infestor/corruptor not to say possibly ultra switch in late macro game and given production lag terrans inherently have, they generally need universal army which, to some extend, could fight against everything zerg throw at them to be effective.
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And last thing to say. Protoss whine about mutas being strong and sometimes terrans too.
WHY AREN'T BLIZZ NERFING MUTAS??THIS IS BASICALLY THE SAME THING AS GHOST PROBLEM.TERRANS AND TOSS COULD NOT LEAVE THE BASE WITHOUT BEING KILLED.
And to further my point blizz IS BUFFING muta counter but why NERF ghosts?? I know you can't directly contrast two different units but... BLIZ has never ever buffed a Terran counter and always nerfed it.
Just my opinion
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On February 12 2012 04:35 Qxcsgayestfan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 04:23 Jarree wrote:
Well Terran is quickly disappearing from ladder. If you check sc2ranks.com T is by far the least played race above silver (at least in EU). Platinum and diamond have only ~27% T (excluding random), masters ~29%. I'm sure the top100 T players in
the world will find new all-ins and timings to keep their winrate up. Every one else which is like a million players is fucked up.
edit: typo
As if Terran wasn't already rare enough on the ladder I'm a high diamond Terran. At the very highest Korean level, who knows? Maybe Terran is still the strongest race. Did Blizzard even consider that, with the launch race being Terran, the micro race being Terran, that maybe the best Koreans chose Terran. I think a very small group of Koreans have distorted blizzards view of where the race is at.
Well, it's getting really frustrating because blizzard has to patch it for the highest players but they're the ones who figure all this stuff out and then blizz nerfs it. It's happened time and time again and the lower level terrans are punished for it.
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Phoenix now has a range upgrade at the Fleet Beacon... The phoenix will now have 6 attack range after purchasing an upgrade... omg, that's imba, and Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic i'm cryin about this ='(
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It's OK for zerg to be a little cost ineffective as long as they maintain economic lead enough to overcome that, thats exclusively zerg concept of "swarming" opponents, so, unless you're arguing that it is viable strategy for terran, we could agree that terran to win games against zerg have to be usually cost effective against zerg opponent, and I for one don't see cost effective composition against bl/infestor/corruptor not to say possibly ultra switch in late macro game and given production lag terrans inherently have, they generally need universal army which, to some extend, could fight against everything zerg throw at them to be effective.
I agree with your point of Terran having to be a bit more cost effective than zerg just because of the nature of the two races, that's the reason I made my point. But as wierd as it sounds, it dosn't make sense to ever bring in the 'units lost' tab in a balance discussion cause the races are functioning in a different way. I don't think you understood me right, I made the argument that you can't bring in cost efficiency in the game like Duderino did in his post, I'm not talking about the specific balance of the game itself.
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On February 12 2012 04:46 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 04:35 Qxcsgayestfan wrote:On February 12 2012 04:23 Jarree wrote:
Well Terran is quickly disappearing from ladder. If you check sc2ranks.com T is by far the least played race above silver (at least in EU). Platinum and diamond have only ~27% T (excluding random), masters ~29%. I'm sure the top100 T players in
the world will find new all-ins and timings to keep their winrate up. Every one else which is like a million players is fucked up.
edit: typo
As if Terran wasn't already rare enough on the ladder I'm a high diamond Terran. At the very highest Korean level, who knows? Maybe Terran is still the strongest race. Did Blizzard even consider that, with the launch race being Terran, the micro race being Terran, that maybe the best Koreans chose Terran. I think a very small group of Koreans have distorted blizzards view of where the race is at. Well, it's getting really frustrating because blizzard has to patch it for the highest players but they're the ones who figure all this stuff out and then blizz nerfs it. It's happened time and time again and the lower level terrans are punished for it.
I play all 3 races. I play vs multiple friends who also play all 3 races. I main protoss, and i can say that when im playing terran and my friend is toss i still win. Getting a good concave, having good macro will allow you to win. I get so tired of watching low level players (read: pretty much all of us in this thread) complaining about snipe/terran in general, when: 1. They never fucking use snipe because they are bad (just like me). 2. Terran beats Toss when both players play equally. The mu's are so close to being even that unless you are the top 1 percent, the game is balanced.
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On February 12 2012 04:55 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 04:46 IMoperator wrote:On February 12 2012 04:35 Qxcsgayestfan wrote:On February 12 2012 04:23 Jarree wrote:
Well Terran is quickly disappearing from ladder. If you check sc2ranks.com T is by far the least played race above silver (at least in EU). Platinum and diamond have only ~27% T (excluding random), masters ~29%. I'm sure the top100 T players in
the world will find new all-ins and timings to keep their winrate up. Every one else which is like a million players is fucked up.
edit: typo
As if Terran wasn't already rare enough on the ladder I'm a high diamond Terran. At the very highest Korean level, who knows? Maybe Terran is still the strongest race. Did Blizzard even consider that, with the launch race being Terran, the micro race being Terran, that maybe the best Koreans chose Terran. I think a very small group of Koreans have distorted blizzards view of where the race is at. Well, it's getting really frustrating because blizzard has to patch it for the highest players but they're the ones who figure all this stuff out and then blizz nerfs it. It's happened time and time again and the lower level terrans are punished for it. I play all 3 races. I play vs multiple friends who also play all 3 races. I main protoss, and i can say that when im playing terran and my friend is toss i still win. Getting a good concave, having good macro will allow you to win. I get so tired of watching low level players (read: pretty much all of us in this thread) complaining about snipe/terran in general, when: 1. They never fucking use snipe because they are bad (just like me). 2. Terran beats Toss when both players play equally. The mu's are so close to being even that unless you are the top 1 percent, the game is balanced.
loool. Terran doesn't beat toss when both play equally. Terran has to play better than the toss in the late game to deal with the massive amounts of aoe.
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I feel like they could've done a more sexy change to Snipe. How does more damage and longer cooldown sound? Or maybe even more cooldown without a damage increase. Snipe is already quite micro intensive, so this migth help close the gap
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EPT
