On February 12 2012 05:23 zmansman17 wrote: You know what would be really interesting is to hear what all the Korean Terrans have to say about this, if they stay with Terran at all. Many of the Korean Terrans actually random on ladder and can play every race with their MMR.
I Wouldn't be surprised if the intent of this change is actually different in scope than we actually think.
Maybe the goal is to drive pros away from ghosts and into more Raven-based HSM play. Honestly, that is the only other vialbe option against Broodlords (If anyone doubts me on this, refer to the 2 posts above me with MVP on BelShir Beach when he attempts to use vikings without ghosts).
So perhaps the ultimate goal is to do just that-- change the metagame, gameplay and maybe even force some of the Korean Terrans (let's face it, some of the top professional players) to consider switching races.
BelShir Beach game if anything shows that vikings are not viably against bl/infestor/corruptors, it's in no way show how Raven would help.
On February 12 2012 05:08 roymarthyup wrote: at first i thought the snipe change was bad but i guess in the scheme of things it makes sense because ghosts have an autoattack while infestors do not.
but 25 damage for 25 energy seems insane. micro'ing that is almost not even worth it Ghosts use EMP on casters, not snipe
one of the biggest problems with the snipe change is that snipe actually has like a 0.5 second "cooldown" and the ghost cannot attack/fire during that cooldown
with the new mousescroll wheel trick you can cast a bunch of snipes at once, however its still limited by the ghost snipe cooldown. also ghosts cannot do their normal DPS while chain sniping
so if snipe is made 25 energy for 25 damage, it wouldnt be THAT bad as long as the 0.5 second cooldown on snipe was removed. Not only that, but the 0.5 second cooldown on snipe should not effect the firing rate of ghosts, meaning if you A-MOVE a group of ghosts then hold down the snipe button and use the mousescroll trick, you could literally spam 100 snipes in 2 seconds while also not messing any of the ghosts autoattacks up. i guess if that was possible, the change wouldnt be so bad
however right now because snipe has like a 0.5 second cooldown AND the fact that you have to consume APM to use it AND the fact that when you use a snipe it RESETS the attack timer of ghosts resulting in less autoattack DPS, when you actually uses ghosts to snipe right now you are losing dps from their autoattack damage, and with a 25 damage snipe it probably becomes completely nonviable to even cast snipe as each bit of APM you use on snipe actually results in a minuscule amount of extra damage being created
because removing that 0.5 second cooldown on snipe would be hard to do, i suggest the easiest and simplest way to balance snipe is to make it 125 energy for 125 damage
so in conclusion, I think 1 energy for 1 damage on snipe is not a bad balance move because one 2food ghost can dish out 200 energy for 200 damage and that means 2 ghosts at 4food can instantly destroy a 4food broodlord while still surviving to live another day and regenerate energy and do it again, but 25 damage on snipe is just pitiful and not worth the APM clicks.
So i suggest making snipe 125 energy for 125 damage, or possibly 100 energy for 100 damage. This would allow ghosts to almost 1shot zealots and still with max energy bars ghosts lategame would still do the dirty and kill broodlords/ultras quickly.
lets look at my proposed idea. 3ghosts vs 2 ultralisks, both cost 6food. 4ghosts with max upgrades and energy bars could launch 4 snipes at a ultralisk and deal 500 damage to it, leaving it with 1health to get 1shotted and then launch 2snipes at the other ultra dealing 250 damage leaving it with 250 health remaining and the 6ghosts can autoattack and kill the other one shortly after
so with my change ghosts would still destroy ultras and broodlords, and but it requires them to regenerate to 125 energy on all of them, and its HARD to produce plenty ghosts, and infestor fungals with mass ling swarms would still #!#@ ghosts, and my change still follows the 1energy for 1damage guideline that blizzard wants to follow
a single fungal on spread vikings that were trying to counter broodlords will normally deal about 300 damage for 75 energy. that is insane. thats 4 damage for 1 energy
i believe if snipe was 125 energy for 125 damage, the thing making it fair would be the fact that ghosts have an autoattack (unlike infestors) and ghosts also would be able to unload all their snipe damage instantly, as opposed to an infestor who must wait for previous fungals to wear off before doing it again. So because snipe is an instant source of damage compared to a DOT spell like fungal, i believe 1 energy to 1 damage is fair as long as its 125 energy for 125 damage
the trade off for higher burst is worth the fact that snipe no longer is as energy efficient against enemy casters
watch this game between morrow and leenock. i believe if snipe was 125 energy for 125 damage, morrow could do the same thing in the game (murduring broodlords with snipe) however it would take less apm to pull off
Snipe has no cooldown at all, not sure what you're talking about. You can fire snipes as fast as you can click, which has been demonstrated with the left click scroll wheel trick: people using it were firing off about 100 snipes in a second.
On February 12 2012 05:23 zmansman17 wrote: You know what would be really interesting is to hear what all the Korean Terrans have to say about this, if they stay with Terran at all. Many of the Korean Terrans actually random on ladder and can play every race with their MMR.
I Wouldn't be surprised if the intent of this change is actually different in scope than we actually think.
Maybe the goal is to drive pros away from ghosts and into more Raven-based HSM play. Honestly, that is the only other vialbe option against Broodlords (If anyone doubts me on this, refer to the 2 posts above me with MVP on BelShir Beach when he attempts to use vikings without ghosts).
So perhaps the ultimate goal is to do just that-- change the metagame, gameplay and maybe even force some of the Korean Terrans (let's face it, some of the top professional players) to consider switching races.
BelShir Beach game if anything shows that vikings are not viably against bl/infestor/corruptors, it's in no way show how Raven would help.
They need to buff HSM range already.... There is no way you can risk a raven into range 6.
On February 12 2012 05:08 roymarthyup wrote: at first i thought the snipe change was bad but i guess in the scheme of things it makes sense because ghosts have an autoattack while infestors do not.
but 25 damage for 25 energy seems insane. micro'ing that is almost not even worth it Ghosts use EMP on casters, not snipe
one of the biggest problems with the snipe change is that snipe actually has like a 0.5 second "cooldown" and the ghost cannot attack/fire during that cooldown
with the new mousescroll wheel trick you can cast a bunch of snipes at once, however its still limited by the ghost snipe cooldown. also ghosts cannot do their normal DPS while chain sniping
so if snipe is made 25 energy for 25 damage, it wouldnt be THAT bad as long as the 0.5 second cooldown on snipe was removed. Not only that, but the 0.5 second cooldown on snipe should not effect the firing rate of ghosts, meaning if you A-MOVE a group of ghosts then hold down the snipe button and use the mousescroll trick, you could literally spam 100 snipes in 2 seconds while also not messing any of the ghosts autoattacks up. i guess if that was possible, the change wouldnt be so bad
however right now because snipe has like a 0.5 second cooldown AND the fact that you have to consume APM to use it AND the fact that when you use a snipe it RESETS the attack timer of ghosts resulting in less autoattack DPS, when you actually uses ghosts to snipe right now you are losing dps from their autoattack damage, and with a 25 damage snipe it probably becomes completely nonviable to even cast snipe as each bit of APM you use on snipe actually results in a minuscule amount of extra damage being created
because removing that 0.5 second cooldown on snipe would be hard to do, i suggest the easiest and simplest way to balance snipe is to make it 125 energy for 125 damage
so in conclusion, I think 1 energy for 1 damage on snipe is not a bad balance move because one 2food ghost can dish out 200 energy for 200 damage and that means 2 ghosts at 4food can instantly destroy a 4food broodlord while still surviving to live another day and regenerate energy and do it again, but 25 damage on snipe is just pitiful and not worth the APM clicks.
So i suggest making snipe 125 energy for 125 damage, or possibly 100 energy for 100 damage. This would allow ghosts to almost 1shot zealots and still with max energy bars ghosts lategame would still do the dirty and kill broodlords/ultras quickly.
lets look at my proposed idea. 3ghosts vs 2 ultralisks, both cost 6food. 4ghosts with max upgrades and energy bars could launch 4 snipes at a ultralisk and deal 500 damage to it, leaving it with 1health to get 1shotted and then launch 2snipes at the other ultra dealing 250 damage leaving it with 250 health remaining and the 6ghosts can autoattack and kill the other one shortly after
so with my change ghosts would still destroy ultras and broodlords, and but it requires them to regenerate to 125 energy on all of them, and its HARD to produce plenty ghosts, and infestor fungals with mass ling swarms would still #!#@ ghosts, and my change still follows the 1energy for 1damage guideline that blizzard wants to follow
a single fungal on spread vikings that were trying to counter broodlords will normally deal about 300 damage for 75 energy. that is insane. thats 4 damage for 1 energy
i believe if snipe was 125 energy for 125 damage, the thing making it fair would be the fact that ghosts have an autoattack (unlike infestors) and ghosts also would be able to unload all their snipe damage instantly, as opposed to an infestor who must wait for previous fungals to wear off before doing it again. So because snipe is an instant source of damage compared to a DOT spell like fungal, i believe 1 energy to 1 damage is fair as long as its 125 energy for 125 damage
the trade off for higher burst is worth the fact that snipe no longer is as energy efficient against enemy casters
watch this game between morrow and leenock. i believe if snipe was 125 energy for 125 damage, morrow could do the same thing in the game (murduring broodlords with snipe) however it would take less apm to pull off
Snipe has no cooldown at all, not sure what you're talking about. You can fire snipes as fast as you can click, which has been demonstrated with the left click scroll wheel trick: people using it were firing off about 100 snipes in a second.
On February 12 2012 05:23 riff wrote: It doesn't matter how low Terran representation goes in the lower leagues as long as it's balanced in the top Korean leagues. These nerfs are for the best, not for the baddies. Any bets on which lower league (Bronze-GM on any server) will hit sub-20% Terran representation next season?
Platinum to Diamond maybe. Bronze- Gold are too terrible to be affected, Master-Grandmaster will be able to adapt well enough Platinum to Diamond players are stubborn and like to stick to their comfort zones then give up and switch races.
I'm Master-Grandmaster and am seriously thinking about switching races ^^ Maybe I'm just going to take a different approach to the game and just all in every game. idk.
I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him.
On February 12 2012 05:23 riff wrote: It doesn't matter how low Terran representation goes in the lower leagues as long as it's balanced in the top Korean leagues. These nerfs are for the best, not for the baddies. Any bets on which lower league (Bronze-GM on any server) will hit sub-20% Terran representation next season?
Platinum to Diamond maybe. Bronze- Gold are too terrible to be affected, Master-Grandmaster will be able to adapt well enough Platinum to Diamond players are stubborn and like to stick to their comfort zones then give up and switch races.
I'm Master-Grandmaster and am seriously thinking about switching races ^^ Maybe I'm just going to take a different approach to the game and just all in every game. idk.
I tried to T => P many times, always ended up going back to T, I love T too much.
It's OK for zerg to be a little cost ineffective as long as they maintain economic lead enough to overcome that, thats exclusively zerg concept of "swarming" opponents, so, unless you're arguing that it is viable strategy for terran, we could agree that terran to win games against zerg have to be usually cost effective against zerg opponent, and I for one don't see cost effective composition against bl/infestor/corruptor not to say possibly ultra switch in late macro game and given production lag terrans inherently have, they generally need universal army which, to some extend, could fight against everything zerg throw at them to be effective.
I agree with your point of Terran having to be a bit more cost effective than zerg just because of the nature of the two races, that's the reason I made my point. But as wierd as it sounds, it dosn't make sense to ever bring in the 'units lost' tab in a balance discussion cause the races are functioning in a different way. I don't think you understood me right, I made the argument that you can't bring in cost efficiency in the game like Duderino did in his post, I'm not talking about the specific balance of the game itself.
I see no reason not to consider unit costs in this discussion, especially after we agreed upon that terran need for been cost effective against zerg. Counter unit by definition is a unit that is able to take out its target in a cost effective manner, soft counter=slightly more cost effective, hard counter= largely cost effective. We cannot talk about units and counter units without counting their costs, otherwise one could say that banelings are counter to spreader thors, with is absurd, so here we have to keep units cost in mind and, following this logic, ghosts won't be a counter to broodlords or ultralisks if this patch goes through unchanged. In one thing I think we can both agree, that only time will show have exactly this change will affect zvt, but ,something tells me, terrans have one hell of a challenge before them.
Soft Counter is.... Require work and micro to counter, Hard Counter is A-move counter i believe.
Something can be a hard counter but still require micro to be effective, concept of counters have little to do with control and a lot to do with effectiveness
On February 12 2012 05:23 riff wrote: It doesn't matter how low Terran representation goes in the lower leagues as long as it's balanced in the top Korean leagues. These nerfs are for the best, not for the baddies. Any bets on which lower league (Bronze-GM on any server) will hit sub-20% Terran representation next season?
Platinum to Diamond maybe. Bronze- Gold are too terrible to be affected, Master-Grandmaster will be able to adapt well enough Platinum to Diamond players are stubborn and like to stick to their comfort zones then give up and switch races.
This certainly will affect all masters players and even GM players on the NA server. I rely on ghosts in late game TvP and TvZ for snipes on zealots in the first MU and snipes on ultras, broodlords in the second MU. I'm sure how these changes are going to drastically reduce my ability to win in these late game settings. Sure, I may adapt and go for more all-in mid game timings, but I can't see how this won't reach top masters players (rank 2 master) or GM players.
Well if that's the case you are more likely a plat-diamond skilled terran with an artificially inflated ladder ranking due to the current overpowered ghosts and gold base mule drops. Don't worry you ladder ranking will adjust to your true skill level after this patch comes out.
On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote: I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him.
Maybe Snipe should 50 damage to ground units and 25 to air units. That would make sense, pointing a sniper rifle up in the air and shooting something out of the sky would be pretty difficult, you would probably be less accurate. This would make ghosts counter ultras more and vikings counter brood lords more, which might be good.
This threads always start out nice and as you read them you can see the rage building up LOL.
Anyways as far as the changes go:
Ghost Snipe: I like it, although I don´t know how to deal with Zerg lategame but I am sure somebody will figure something out. Its kinda Ok because I feel Zerg really was the underdog of the MU at both early and lategame. Dunno, I feel Snipe did way too much damage against Broodlords and Ultras and it felt kinda silly.
Phoenix range: Pretty cool IMO dunno if this will change TvP much but it will let Phoenix Micro more against Mutas. Although I feel the range may be too much and thus make it more easy to micro against Mutas. I would have made the Phoenix 5 range instead of 6(Current range is 4 no?).Also its nice that Fleet beacon has another upgrade again, sets up nicely for Mommaship play in PvZ
Mules change: I never got all the whinning about mules on gold bases. It was not really that much of an advantage unless you had tons of energy saved up(which in that case its a temporary advantage) or too many OCs. But oh well as long as I see less whinning about Mules its Ok.
APM change: Well, people can´t complain Blizzard doesn´t listen. Nice change I didn´t really care much about APM anyways. But I guess people will be able to spam and feel proud of themeselves again.
On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote: I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him.
That's a horrible argument for balance. So just because the game was broken one way in the past it justifies swinging it the other way round?
Also, numbers have been shown in the middle of the thread. Terran win rate after 20 minutes is already at 35%. Nerf the early game, not the late game ffs.
On February 12 2012 05:52 Gfire wrote: Maybe Snipe should 50 damage to ground units and 25 to air units. That would make sense, pointing a sniper rifle up in the air and shooting something out of the sky would be pretty difficult, you would probably be less accurate. This would make ghosts counter ultras more and vikings counter brood lords more, which might be good.
Execpt the entire point of the ghost in sc2 is to be the Terran anti-caster unit, this patch will being them in line with their concept, they were NEVER intended to counter zealots/broodlords/ultralisks. And these notes should make that obvious.
LOVE the map changes. The MULE change is also warranted.
But the ghost and phoenix changes are messed up. Why didn't they just give the phoenix one more range instead of making it as expensive as a mothership?
And if the problem with snipe was against broods and ultras, why not just make it less vs massive?
On February 12 2012 05:23 riff wrote: It doesn't matter how low Terran representation goes in the lower leagues as long as it's balanced in the top Korean leagues. These nerfs are for the best, not for the baddies. Any bets on which lower league (Bronze-GM on any server) will hit sub-20% Terran representation next season?
Platinum to Diamond maybe. Bronze- Gold are too terrible to be affected, Master-Grandmaster will be able to adapt well enough Platinum to Diamond players are stubborn and like to stick to their comfort zones then give up and switch races.
This certainly will affect all masters players and even GM players on the NA server. I rely on ghosts in late game TvP and TvZ for snipes on zealots in the first MU and snipes on ultras, broodlords in the second MU. I'm sure how these changes are going to drastically reduce my ability to win in these late game settings. Sure, I may adapt and go for more all-in mid game timings, but I can't see how this won't reach top masters players (rank 2 master) or GM players.
Well if that's the case you are more likely a plat-diamond skilled terran with an artificially inflated ladder ranking due to the current overpowered ghosts and gold base mule drops. Don't worry you ladder ranking will adjust to your true skill level after this patch comes out.
Ghosts aren't overpowered, if you truly think they are you have never played a high level TvZ in your life. Lategame TvZ will be almost impossible, it was already extremely hard. My GM zerg practice partners are saying, they will actually never lose with infestor ling into ultra-->BL anymore. Every master player will be extremely effected. Ghosts control is one of the hardest micro in the game, terran is rediculous hard in both TvZ en TvP lategame, you can look at how terran is the least played race in all the Master leagues. The only reason ghosts are getting nerfed is because the best player in the game is making them look broken, even though he would make look anything broken with any race.
Execpt the entire point of the ghost in sc2 is to be the Terran anti-caster unit, this patch will being them in line with their concept, they were NEVER intended to counter zealots/broodlords/ultralisks. And these notes should make that obvious.
They were actually designed to counter broodlords. Look at their unit description. The also don't even counter broodlords, they soft counter, and they aren't cost efficient vs ultras. Going ghosts in TvZ means giving up all means of aggresion, you can not atack. The only way to win is by nuking, dropping and when you almost starved the zerg, trade cost efficiently. If you fail to starve the zerg. He will just a-move his broods and ultras and remax on roach ling bling and you will die because all of your tanks just got killed. TvZ lategame is retarded, so is TvP lategame. I'm a terran that always played for the lategame, but after this patch I won't be doing that anymore against Zerg.
On February 12 2012 05:10 HighLach wrote: I think all these changes are good. The gold bases should probably have just been removed. I just prefer the regular mineral patches anyways because there's 3000 more minerals.
The snipe change was necessary. It was unfair that terran could have tons of ghosts and kill all the zerg lategame units: Infestors, Broodlords, Corruptors, Ultralisks. People will probably just have to micro their vikings better against zerg. Marauders deal with ultralisks decently already(I hope they fix the ultralisk kiting bug too). Either unit might even get a buff in the future. The versatility complaint is naive, because every other race has to make changes to their army to survive a tech switch.
The phoenix change sounds reasonable. I'm not so excited for heart of the swarm.
On February 12 2012 05:52 Gfire wrote: Maybe Snipe should 50 damage to ground units and 25 to air units. That would make sense, pointing a sniper rifle up in the air and shooting something out of the sky would be pretty difficult, you would probably be less accurate. This would make ghosts counter ultras more and vikings counter brood lords more, which might be good.
Execpt the entire point of the ghost in sc2 is to be the Terran anti-caster unit, this patch will being them in line with their concept, they were NEVER intended to counter zealots/broodlords/ultralisks. And these notes should make that obvious.
Except that it's mentioned on Blizzard's official SC2 site that they are the counter to Broodlords.
Stop with this "intended to play this way" crap already. Even Brood War would suck if everything played out "as intended".
On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote: I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him.
This ^ See how it goes in PTR
Well, thats pretty damn moronic IMO. (I agree with the changes BTW) But the idea of ¨hey, we suffered a lot on this MU where we were around 50% anyways, now its time for T to be on the losing end¨ is a pretty stupid justification for balance changes. Unless you expect Blizzard to make monthly changes to make OP Fotm races.
On February 12 2012 05:52 Gfire wrote: Maybe Snipe should 50 damage to ground units and 25 to air units. That would make sense, pointing a sniper rifle up in the air and shooting something out of the sky would be pretty difficult, you would probably be less accurate. This would make ghosts counter ultras more and vikings counter brood lords more, which might be good.
Execpt the entire point of the ghost in sc2 is to be the Terran anti-caster unit, this patch will being them in line with their concept, they were NEVER intended to counter zealots/broodlords/ultralisks. And these notes should make that obvious.
"The biggest strength of Brood Lords is their ability to create massive numbers of Broodlings. Take Brood Lords out instantly using ghosts and their snipe ability to prevent this."
From the official blizzard website.
Tell me more about how ghosts were never intended to counter broodlords.
EPT
