|
Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote:I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him. LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data.
If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this.
|
We will know if this nerf is to much when and if MorroW starts to play ZvZ.
|
so because mvp, mma, mkp, bomber, etc win tournaments that mean tha terran is imba?
|
On February 12 2012 04:46 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 04:35 Qxcsgayestfan wrote:On February 12 2012 04:23 Jarree wrote:
Well Terran is quickly disappearing from ladder. If you check sc2ranks.com T is by far the least played race above silver (at least in EU). Platinum and diamond have only ~27% T (excluding random), masters ~29%. I'm sure the top100 T players in
the world will find new all-ins and timings to keep their winrate up. Every one else which is like a million players is fucked up.
edit: typo
As if Terran wasn't already rare enough on the ladder  I'm a high diamond Terran. At the very highest Korean level, who knows? Maybe Terran is still the strongest race. Did Blizzard even consider that, with the launch race being Terran, the micro race being Terran, that maybe the best Koreans chose Terran. I think a very small group of Koreans have distorted blizzards view of where the race is at. Well, it's getting really frustrating because blizzard has to patch it for the highest players but they're the ones who figure all this stuff out and then blizz nerfs it. It's happened time and time again and the lower level terrans are punished for it.
Um, no. Lower level players are never punished by anything Blizzard has done. What you are saying doesn't even make sense, how can balancing the game for the best players possibly have any sort of negative impact on lower league players? Answer? It can't but they think it does because they don't know much about this game in the first place and just enjoy complaining about things as an excuse for why they aren't playing better.
|
On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote:I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him. LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this.
The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more.
Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes
Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES
TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose.
|
On February 12 2012 06:05 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 06:01 zmansman17 wrote:On February 12 2012 05:45 Recognizable wrote:On February 12 2012 05:25 Blasterion wrote:On February 12 2012 05:23 riff wrote:
It doesn't matter how low Terran representation goes in the lower leagues as long as it's balanced in the top Korean leagues. These nerfs are for the best, not for the baddies. Any bets on which lower league (Bronze-GM on any server) will hit sub-20% Terran representation next season? Platinum to Diamond maybe. Bronze- Gold are too terrible to be affected, Master-Grandmaster will be able to adapt well enough Platinum to Diamond players are stubborn and like to stick to their comfort zones then give up and switch races. I'm Master-Grandmaster and am seriously thinking about switching races ^^ Maybe I'm just going to take a different approach to the game and just all in every game. idk. Same here and have developed a top 3 master Protoss offracing. Didn't take me very long to do, but the only fun MU to me as Protoss is PvZ (and probably because that's currently the most challenging MU) The problem is that I wouldn't be able to play protoss really. Cba to just sit on 3 bases max and a-move really =..=
so you are lacking patience skills?
so you are lacking macro/BO skills?
so you are lacking the skill to a-move an opponent?
and people claim terran is hard, while their players can't even play the things they regard easy, rofl!
I wish people would stop with that "race X is harder than..." bullshit.
I main Zerg and I think it is quite challenging, and whenever I offrace as Terran I just queue multiple drops and 2mins later wonder why my opponent wrote "gg", because I completly missed that one of the drops just killed him.
And when I offrace as Protoss, I'm always rofling Zergs that try to counter phoenix with more mutalisks or try to engage with roaches, because then I just FF and laugh all day.
Yet somehow my Zerg is master level, my Terran diamond and my Protoss platin... Makes me wonder, maybe playing the other races on a higher level are still pretty challenging, even more if I didn't have master mechanics to begin with and couldn't make up for having no clue about strategy, just by outmicroing and abusing mistakes...
|
On February 12 2012 06:21 duct_TAPE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 05:39 Remi wrote:On February 12 2012 04:53 duct_TAPE wrote:It's OK for zerg to be a little cost ineffective as long as they maintain economic lead enough to overcome that, thats exclusively zerg concept of "swarming" opponents, so, unless you're arguing that it is viable strategy for terran, we could agree that terran to win games against zerg have to be usually cost effective against zerg opponent, and I for one don't see cost effective composition against bl/infestor/corruptor not to say possibly ultra switch in late macro game and given production lag terrans inherently have, they generally need universal army which, to some extend, could fight against everything zerg throw at them to be effective. I agree with your point of Terran having to be a bit more cost effective than zerg just because of the nature of the two races, that's the reason I made my point. But as wierd as it sounds, it dosn't make sense to ever bring in the 'units lost' tab in a balance discussion cause the races are functioning in a different way. I don't think you understood me right, I made the argument that you can't bring in cost efficiency in the game like Duderino did in his post, I'm not talking about the specific balance of the game itself. I see no reason not to consider unit costs in this discussion, especially after we agreed upon that terran need for been cost effective against zerg. Counter unit by definition is a unit that is able to take out its target in a cost effective manner, soft counter=slightly more cost effective, hard counter= largely cost effective. We cannot talk about units and counter units without counting their costs, otherwise one could say that banelings are counter to spreader thors, with is absurd, so here we have to keep units cost in mind and, following this logic, ghosts won't be a counter to broodlords or ultralisks if this patch goes through unchanged. In one thing I think we can both agree, that only time will show have exactly this change will affect zvt, but ,something tells me, terrans have one hell of a challenge before them. The problem I have with this reasoning is we agreed that the way zerg is played most of the time is less cost efficient, and because of that they have to be at least a base up on their opponents so they can afford to be that bit less cost efficient. In this manner you have to consider that zerg is going to have a lead in economy and therefore have a bigger pool of money to throw, meaning unit x being lost in a 'unit lost' tab is not backed up by the same economy and in reality will be less % lost money for the zerg. This also means that 'units lost' tab is going to be very misleading and not a good tool to use, cause it dosn't include how the races are normally played/economy and playstyles. I hope you understand what I mean here, my personal opinion of course.
I do understand your point friend, but notice that this apply only to zergs, who can allow themself to be cost ineffective as long as they have eco lead. Terrans simly cannot play like that, they need cost effective unit composition to be even on the same footings as zerg, not even better, but just to be equal, it's as you said terran play-style. Therefore unit cost is important when discussing this matter.
PS: Violet just have defeated Supernova with broodlords/infestors/corruptors against marin/tank/viking in EIM finale match taking it 3 to 1 :D
|
On February 12 2012 06:42 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 04:46 IMoperator wrote:On February 12 2012 04:35 Qxcsgayestfan wrote:On February 12 2012 04:23 Jarree wrote:
Well Terran is quickly disappearing from ladder. If you check sc2ranks.com T is by far the least played race above silver (at least in EU). Platinum and diamond have only ~27% T (excluding random), masters ~29%. I'm sure the top100 T players in
the world will find new all-ins and timings to keep their winrate up. Every one else which is like a million players is fucked up.
edit: typo
As if Terran wasn't already rare enough on the ladder I'm a high diamond Terran. At the very highest Korean level, who knows? Maybe Terran is still the strongest race. Did Blizzard even consider that, with the launch race being Terran, the micro race being Terran, that maybe the best Koreans chose Terran. I think a very small group of Koreans have distorted blizzards view of where the race is at. Well, it's getting really frustrating because blizzard has to patch it for the highest players but they're the ones who figure all this stuff out and then blizz nerfs it. It's happened time and time again and the lower level terrans are punished for it. Um, no. Lower level players are never punished by anything Blizzard has done. What you are saying doesn't even make sense, how can balancing the game for the best players possibly have any sort of negative impact on lower league players? Answer? It can't but they think it does because they don't know much about this game in the first place and just enjoy complaining about things as an excuse for why they aren't playing better.
of course this affects lower level players, because you just don't have the mechanics of a high level player and therefore cannot handle situations f.e. requiring micro as well as them which often puts Terran in a disadvantage, cuz he just can't pump mass spellings or whatever and just a-move his army...
|
Here's some food for thought:
The range upgrade for the Phoenix may have an interesting side-effect if it gets live. If this makes phoenix the counter to the mass-muta scenario, but this also makes the Tempest in HotS obsolete. The only clear use of the Tempest is supposed to be anti mass-muta...
I wouldn't mind this though, as the Tempest is a concept with extremely little thought.
|
When was the last time terran got buffed? Just asking. It does seem to me everytime a patch emerges, something is taken away from terran, and I really didn't see anything like it since the warp gate research timing was made longer with protoss, and the fungal got changed for zerg (which wasn't even that much of a nerf, just a system change).
What I am trying to say is, if that race is so imba, why am I not in masters league? :D
I can see why the MULE had to be changed though, and i am surprised that it took them so long. Even admitting that the tournaments which took out gold minerals from their maps did the right thing sounds like something that i wouldn't have expected to hear from blizzard.
just wondered why the snipe was going up from 45 to 50 dmg vs casters, so i took a look at the numbers of psionic units:
infestor: 90 health (needs 2 snipes, like before)
sentry: 40 health/40 shield (needs 2 snipes, but not being a bio unit, snipes could not be applied, wondering if thats going to change now)
high templar: 40/40 (needs 2 snipes, just like before)
ghost: 100 health (needs 2 snipes, needed 3 before)
kind of makes me still wonder...
|
Well, if they are getting nerfing Snipe as one of T's options to deal with T3 can we at least get longer range HSM, or maybe unnerf the BC back to 10 ground damage so it would be useful again
|
On February 12 2012 07:01 Semtext wrote:
When was the last time terran got buffed?
Patch 1.4.0, Raven HSM speed increased.
You did ask.
|
On February 12 2012 07:03 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:01 Semtext wrote:
When was the last time terran got buffed? Patch 1.4.0, Raven HSM speed increased. You did ask.
Yeah, and in the same patch they nerfed barracks build time and blueflame.. rofl
|
On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote:I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him. LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose.
This. Exactley.
Late game TvZ is already in Zergs favor, this just tips the ballance even further. More 2 base timings and 1 base All-Ins which as a viewer pisses me off. 1/2 of Protoss games are already that way.
Ghost play is some of the most entertaining play in SC2. Now wew're going to see far less of it.
|
On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote:I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him. LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose.
IMO it will make the game much LESS 1-dimensional when the ultimate endgame comp in TvZ is not 1000 ghosts + mop up units, and the ultimate engame comp in ZvP is not 1000 mutas.
|
On February 12 2012 07:03 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:01 Semtext wrote:
When was the last time terran got buffed? Patch 1.4.0, Raven HSM speed increased. You did ask.
i appreciate your answer.
keeping in mind, that thing was slow as my grandma with her zimmer frame to begin with and was rarely used.
so it kind of needed that buff in order to start getting researched anyway, and i sort of do recall that that was one of the reasons given. wasn't it that way?
|
On February 12 2012 07:00 Morphs wrote:
Here's some food for thought:
The range upgrade for the Phoenix may have an interesting side-effect if it gets live. If this makes phoenix the counter to the mass-muta scenario, but this also makes the Tempest in HotS obsolete. The only clear use of the Tempest is supposed to be anti mass-muta...
I wouldn't mind this though, as the Tempest is a concept with extremely little thought.
That's why I'm hoping that post this Phoenix upgrade Blizzard realise that the Tempest is a useless a-move unit and hopefully update the concept of the carrier for the next expansion in a big way.
So that I'm happy with. The MULE on gold base thing, I don't know we'll see I guess, it's been so long since I've seen gold bases it's hard to remember.
And the snipe change. Yeah, though it needs a change this change is silly since ghosts already counter psionic classes by having this thing called EMP. I would just have preferred they removed the spam of the ability (small cooldown), but instead they went from having the ghost counter a variety of terran and zerg units to the 4 psionic units in the game. Sure, snipe originally countered too much, but when an ability made to kill can't even kill a stimmed combat shield-less marine it feels a bit worthless...
|
i am thinking the phoenix range upgrade will sort of make zerg players drop the air style in zvp, and we will see even more roach infestor...not sure if that is really that good...inb4 that change will get removed on the next patch.
also, wondering if the snipe can be applied to non-boi units like the sentry now or not. since there is not anything said about it in the note, i guess that won't change, but with so little damage dealt by snipe against non-psionic, they might take that restriction away too.
|
On February 12 2012 07:11 Semtext wrote:
i am thinking the phoenix range upgrade will sort of make zerg players drop the air style in zvp, and we will see even more roach infestor...not sure if that is really that good...inb4 that change will get removed on the next patch.
The phoenix buff kills muta play before it even starts.
Mutas will be non-viable, end of story
|
On February 12 2012 07:13 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:11 Semtext wrote:
i am thinking the phoenix range upgrade will sort of make zerg players drop the air style in zvp, and we will see even more roach infestor...not sure if that is really that good...inb4 that change will get removed on the next patch. The phoenix buff kills muta play before it even starts. Mutas will be non-viable, end of story
then again you need a fleet beacon to research it, so it is not going to be there in mdigame, or your phoenix get slaughtered before it hits...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
