|
Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 12 2012 07:16 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:07 mlspmatt wrote:On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote:I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him. LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose. This. Exactley. Late game TvZ is already in Zergs favor, this just tips the ballance even further. More 2 base timings and 1 base All-Ins which as a viewer pisses me off. 1/2 of Protoss games are already that way. Ghost play is some of the most entertaining play in SC2. Now wew're going to see far less of it. Late game is not really in zerg favor (let me explain). Due to the nature of the game If a terran wins early he just wins, if a zerg wins early he often has to do 10-15 mins of mopup so when he finally gets his GG, it may appear to be a lategme victory but was really not. Consider there are 10 games where nothing is really decided til lategame, zerg wins 5 and terran wins 5. (50% W/L) Now consider 10 more games that are decided in the early game terran wins 5 and ends them quickly, zerg also wins 5 and ends 3 quickly, but in 2 the terran uses mules, walls + repairing scv,s, defensive tanks, planetary fortresses, and other tactics to draw out the game even though he is 95% sure to lose it in the end. When zerg finally finishes him off it appears to be a lategame victory, but really isn't. This is the reason why terran might appear to be weaker late and stronger early if looking at the statistics alone.
This is a very insightful post, thank you. I always wondered why it was so skewed towards Terran having a low w/l as the game went on- This makes a lot of sense. It is very difficult to close out a terran haha. Thorzain vs DRG dreamhack finals.
on topic: happy about all the changes, i dont like seeing 12 ultras quickly die to ghosts....
Phoenix seems just right! Since you have to pay for the fleet beacon and upgrade now... Perfect amount of time/money investment, because 6 range makes phoenix a pretty badass unit.
is there a custom game with all of these changes edited in?
|
If Terrans really want to feel like, that nothing is going to kill their army, go for Raven+Mech. It's so gas heavy, but almost unkillable.
|
On February 12 2012 07:45 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:43 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:38 Phanekim wrote:
you never know how its going to work. people have constnatly nerfed terran. but terran have always risen to the top again because terran had so much untapped potential. so just cause you are buffing zerg doesn't mean terran can't adjust. maybe more raven usage. Very good point, zerg and protoss, use (and often) every unit at their disposal, simply because they have to. Tell a Terran to use a raven and they just laugh because their race is so well designed they have 3 units to a role and only need to use the most powerful one until it gets nerfed. Zergs don't use nydus worms enough. Lets nerf zergs some until they start using them.
Yes but zerg dont use nydus often because they are next to impossiable to sneak into a base of a good player and because they are too slow to unload not because they have better options.
|
On February 12 2012 07:35 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:25 Torra wrote:On February 12 2012 07:16 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:07 mlspmatt wrote:On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote:I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him. LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose. This. Exactley. Late game TvZ is already in Zergs favor, this just tips the ballance even further. More 2 base timings and 1 base All-Ins which as a viewer pisses me off. 1/2 of Protoss games are already that way. Ghost play is some of the most entertaining play in SC2. Now wew're going to see far less of it. Late game is not really in zerg favor (let me explain). Due to the nature of the game If a terran wins early he just wins, if a zerg wins early he often has to do 10-15 mins of mopup so when he finally gets his GG, it may appear to be a lategme victory but was really not. Consider there are 10 games where nothing is really decided til lategame, zerg wins 5 and terran wins 5. (50% W/L) Now consider 10 more games that are decided in the early game terran wins 5 and ends them quickly, zerg also wins 5 and ends 3 quickly, but in 2 the terran uses mules, walls + repairing scv,s, defensive tanks, planetary fortresses, and other tactics to draw out the game even though he is 95% sure to lose it in the end. When zerg finally finishes him off it appears to be a lategame victory, but really isn't. This is the reason why terran might appear to be weaker late and stronger early if looking at the statistics alone. If u follow the pro scene, u don't need statistic to see that terran is the weakest race late game. The huge difference in win rate by game length is not only explained by what u just stated. It actually is explained quite well by what I said, and I follow the pro scene quite religiously. It is getting really annoying however thet 90% of SC2 balance whine comes from Terran players, when statisticly and observably they are the most powerful race right now. Anyone Who watches the pro scene, without a Terran bias, can see that terran can win quite well in the lategame if they don't lose a major battle in the early-midgame.
Well, you did have a point at first, when you mentioned that terrans turtling hard when losing could skew results slightly: however, while it's worth keeping that in mind, I don't think that explains the huge swing in win:loss. Also, turtling is not possible in tvp due to no tanks or defensive bonsues, so terran's late game drop in win rate is not explainable by that.
Unfortunately, you followed up this statement with nothing of substance. There is no way that "90%" of balance whine comes from terran, haha. Have you never heard of the traditional zerg whining, and the "sad zealot" whine? Frankly, that statement alone makes you look ridiculous. Other than that, arguably the strongest race RIGHT NOW, as in this very second, is probably protoss: at least, many, many pro players think so (boxer: "this is protoss generation", and forgg, polt demuslim etc. have all mentioned how hard protoss is) and is backed by impressive results in recent gsl (historically, of course, terran has been superior). Honestly, the only way you can reach such conclusions is by having your own bias, so your calls for terrans to see this without bias seem rather hypocritical of you.
|
On February 12 2012 07:51 Szubie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:35 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:25 Torra wrote:On February 12 2012 07:16 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:07 mlspmatt wrote:On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote:I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him. LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose. This. Exactley. Late game TvZ is already in Zergs favor, this just tips the ballance even further. More 2 base timings and 1 base All-Ins which as a viewer pisses me off. 1/2 of Protoss games are already that way. Ghost play is some of the most entertaining play in SC2. Now wew're going to see far less of it. Late game is not really in zerg favor (let me explain). Due to the nature of the game If a terran wins early he just wins, if a zerg wins early he often has to do 10-15 mins of mopup so when he finally gets his GG, it may appear to be a lategme victory but was really not. Consider there are 10 games where nothing is really decided til lategame, zerg wins 5 and terran wins 5. (50% W/L) Now consider 10 more games that are decided in the early game terran wins 5 and ends them quickly, zerg also wins 5 and ends 3 quickly, but in 2 the terran uses mules, walls + repairing scv,s, defensive tanks, planetary fortresses, and other tactics to draw out the game even though he is 95% sure to lose it in the end. When zerg finally finishes him off it appears to be a lategame victory, but really isn't. This is the reason why terran might appear to be weaker late and stronger early if looking at the statistics alone. If u follow the pro scene, u don't need statistic to see that terran is the weakest race late game. The huge difference in win rate by game length is not only explained by what u just stated. It actually is explained quite well by what I said, and I follow the pro scene quite religiously. It is getting really annoying however thet 90% of SC2 balance whine comes from Terran players, when statisticly and observably they are the most powerful race right now. Anyone Who watches the pro scene, without a Terran bias, can see that terran can win quite well in the lategame if they don't lose a major battle in the early-midgame. Well, you did have a point at first, when you mentioned that terrans turtling hard when losing could skew results slightly: however, while it's worth keeping that in mind, I don't think that explains the huge swing in win:loss. Also, turtling is not possible in tvp due to no tanks or defensive bonsues, so terran's late game drop in win rate is not explainable by that. Unfortunately, you followed up this statement with nothing of substance. There is no way that "90%" of balance whine comes from terran, haha. Have you never heard of the traditional zerg whining, and the "sad zealot" whine? Frankly, that statement alone makes you look ridiculous. Other than that, arguably the strongest race RIGHT NOW, as in this very second, is probably protoss: at least, many, many pro players think so (boxer: "this is protoss generation", and forgg, polt demuslim etc. have all mentioned how hard protoss is) and is backed by impressive results in recent gsl (historically, of course, terran has been superior). Honestly, the only way you can reach such conclusions is by having your own bias, so your calls for terrans to see this without bias seem rather hypocritical of you.
Ok maybe I'm pushing it a bit with the 90%, But you should reread the last few patch notes thread if you think the level of zerg or protoss whine is even close to the level of terran whine.
|
Can we please stop quoting stats from a single MLG which had a thousand terrible players participating. Thanks.
|
On February 12 2012 07:35 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:25 Torra wrote:On February 12 2012 07:16 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:07 mlspmatt wrote:On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote:I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him. LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose. This. Exactley. Late game TvZ is already in Zergs favor, this just tips the ballance even further. More 2 base timings and 1 base All-Ins which as a viewer pisses me off. 1/2 of Protoss games are already that way. Ghost play is some of the most entertaining play in SC2. Now wew're going to see far less of it. Late game is not really in zerg favor (let me explain). Due to the nature of the game If a terran wins early he just wins, if a zerg wins early he often has to do 10-15 mins of mopup so when he finally gets his GG, it may appear to be a lategme victory but was really not. Consider there are 10 games where nothing is really decided til lategame, zerg wins 5 and terran wins 5. (50% W/L) Now consider 10 more games that are decided in the early game terran wins 5 and ends them quickly, zerg also wins 5 and ends 3 quickly, but in 2 the terran uses mules, walls + repairing scv,s, defensive tanks, planetary fortresses, and other tactics to draw out the game even though he is 95% sure to lose it in the end. When zerg finally finishes him off it appears to be a lategame victory, but really isn't. This is the reason why terran might appear to be weaker late and stronger early if looking at the statistics alone. If u follow the pro scene, u don't need statistic to see that terran is the weakest race late game. The huge difference in win rate by game length is not only explained by what u just stated. It actually is explained quite well by what I said, and I follow the pro scene quite religiously. It is getting really annoying however thet 90% of SC2 balance whine comes from Terran players, when statisticly and observably they are the most powerful race right now. Anyone Who watches the pro scene, without a Terran bias, can see that terran can win quite well in the lategame if they don't lose a major battle in the early-midgame.
If u really do, u'd know how favoured PvT lategame is in favour of P. I think the TvZ MU has a whole is fine as it is now and it has been for a very long time. I really don't see how terran is supposed to deal with TvZ lategame with nerfed snipe. The army compositions that Z can get lategame is just so much better and easier to get. Terran needs ghosts just to survive the tech switches that zerg can make much easier in lategame. I would be ok with the snipe change if terran got something else to deal with Z late game compositions. Basically, terran has no good T3 for late game.
|
On February 12 2012 07:43 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:38 Phanekim wrote:
you never know how its going to work. people have constnatly nerfed terran. but terran have always risen to the top again because terran had so much untapped potential. so just cause you are buffing zerg doesn't mean terran can't adjust. maybe more raven usage. Very good point, zerg and protoss, use (and often) every unit at their disposal, simply because they have to. Tell a Terran to use a raven and they just laugh because their race is so well designed they have 3 units to a role and only need to use the most powerful one until it gets nerfed.
I dont see any zerg doing banelings drops, infestor drops(that we can't spot ahead of time, because our depots aren't flying scouts!!), roach drop/ultra drop vs the immobile mech, just the plain old 'send everything in and hope it works', as it often does, I guess terrans just didn't improve while zerg learnt to use every strategy in their arsenal  .
|
On February 12 2012 08:01 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:35 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:25 Torra wrote:On February 12 2012 07:16 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:07 mlspmatt wrote:On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote:I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him. LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose. This. Exactley. Late game TvZ is already in Zergs favor, this just tips the ballance even further. More 2 base timings and 1 base All-Ins which as a viewer pisses me off. 1/2 of Protoss games are already that way. Ghost play is some of the most entertaining play in SC2. Now wew're going to see far less of it. Late game is not really in zerg favor (let me explain). Due to the nature of the game If a terran wins early he just wins, if a zerg wins early he often has to do 10-15 mins of mopup so when he finally gets his GG, it may appear to be a lategme victory but was really not. Consider there are 10 games where nothing is really decided til lategame, zerg wins 5 and terran wins 5. (50% W/L) Now consider 10 more games that are decided in the early game terran wins 5 and ends them quickly, zerg also wins 5 and ends 3 quickly, but in 2 the terran uses mules, walls + repairing scv,s, defensive tanks, planetary fortresses, and other tactics to draw out the game even though he is 95% sure to lose it in the end. When zerg finally finishes him off it appears to be a lategame victory, but really isn't. This is the reason why terran might appear to be weaker late and stronger early if looking at the statistics alone. If u follow the pro scene, u don't need statistic to see that terran is the weakest race late game. The huge difference in win rate by game length is not only explained by what u just stated. It actually is explained quite well by what I said, and I follow the pro scene quite religiously. It is getting really annoying however thet 90% of SC2 balance whine comes from Terran players, when statisticly and observably they are the most powerful race right now. Anyone Who watches the pro scene, without a Terran bias, can see that terran can win quite well in the lategame if they don't lose a major battle in the early-midgame. If u really do, u'd know how favoured PvT lategame is in favour of P. I think the TvZ MU has a whole is fine as it is now and it has been for a very long time. I really don't see how terran is supposed to deal with TvZ lategame with nerfed snipe. The army compositions that Z can get lategame is just so much better and easier to get. Terran needs ghosts just to survive the tech switches that zerg can make much easier in lategame. I would be ok with the snipe change if terran got something else to deal with Z late game compositions. Basically, terran has no good T3 for late game.
That was a discussion of the TvZ lategame situation, try reading more then the last post in a conversation plz.
|
On February 12 2012 07:55 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:51 Szubie wrote:On February 12 2012 07:35 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:25 Torra wrote:On February 12 2012 07:16 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:07 mlspmatt wrote:On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote:I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him. LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose. This. Exactley. Late game TvZ is already in Zergs favor, this just tips the ballance even further. More 2 base timings and 1 base All-Ins which as a viewer pisses me off. 1/2 of Protoss games are already that way. Ghost play is some of the most entertaining play in SC2. Now wew're going to see far less of it. Late game is not really in zerg favor (let me explain). Due to the nature of the game If a terran wins early he just wins, if a zerg wins early he often has to do 10-15 mins of mopup so when he finally gets his GG, it may appear to be a lategme victory but was really not. Consider there are 10 games where nothing is really decided til lategame, zerg wins 5 and terran wins 5. (50% W/L) Now consider 10 more games that are decided in the early game terran wins 5 and ends them quickly, zerg also wins 5 and ends 3 quickly, but in 2 the terran uses mules, walls + repairing scv,s, defensive tanks, planetary fortresses, and other tactics to draw out the game even though he is 95% sure to lose it in the end. When zerg finally finishes him off it appears to be a lategame victory, but really isn't. This is the reason why terran might appear to be weaker late and stronger early if looking at the statistics alone. If u follow the pro scene, u don't need statistic to see that terran is the weakest race late game. The huge difference in win rate by game length is not only explained by what u just stated. It actually is explained quite well by what I said, and I follow the pro scene quite religiously. It is getting really annoying however thet 90% of SC2 balance whine comes from Terran players, when statisticly and observably they are the most powerful race right now. Anyone Who watches the pro scene, without a Terran bias, can see that terran can win quite well in the lategame if they don't lose a major battle in the early-midgame. Well, you did have a point at first, when you mentioned that terrans turtling hard when losing could skew results slightly: however, while it's worth keeping that in mind, I don't think that explains the huge swing in win:loss. Also, turtling is not possible in tvp due to no tanks or defensive bonsues, so terran's late game drop in win rate is not explainable by that. Unfortunately, you followed up this statement with nothing of substance. There is no way that "90%" of balance whine comes from terran, haha. Have you never heard of the traditional zerg whining, and the "sad zealot" whine? Frankly, that statement alone makes you look ridiculous. Other than that, arguably the strongest race RIGHT NOW, as in this very second, is probably protoss: at least, many, many pro players think so (boxer: "this is protoss generation", and forgg, polt demuslim etc. have all mentioned how hard protoss is) and is backed by impressive results in recent gsl (historically, of course, terran has been superior). Honestly, the only way you can reach such conclusions is by having your own bias, so your calls for terrans to see this without bias seem rather hypocritical of you. Ok maybe I'm pushing it a bit with the 90%, But you should reread the last few patch notes thread if you think the level of zerg or protoss whine is even close to the level of terran whine.
That's because terran gets fucking nerfed every single patch.
|
On February 12 2012 08:06 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:55 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:51 Szubie wrote:On February 12 2012 07:35 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:25 Torra wrote:On February 12 2012 07:16 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:07 mlspmatt wrote:On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:
[quote]
LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose. This. Exactley. Late game TvZ is already in Zergs favor, this just tips the ballance even further. More 2 base timings and 1 base All-Ins which as a viewer pisses me off. 1/2 of Protoss games are already that way. Ghost play is some of the most entertaining play in SC2. Now wew're going to see far less of it. Late game is not really in zerg favor (let me explain). Due to the nature of the game If a terran wins early he just wins, if a zerg wins early he often has to do 10-15 mins of mopup so when he finally gets his GG, it may appear to be a lategme victory but was really not. Consider there are 10 games where nothing is really decided til lategame, zerg wins 5 and terran wins 5. (50% W/L) Now consider 10 more games that are decided in the early game terran wins 5 and ends them quickly, zerg also wins 5 and ends 3 quickly, but in 2 the terran uses mules, walls + repairing scv,s, defensive tanks, planetary fortresses, and other tactics to draw out the game even though he is 95% sure to lose it in the end. When zerg finally finishes him off it appears to be a lategame victory, but really isn't. This is the reason why terran might appear to be weaker late and stronger early if looking at the statistics alone. If u follow the pro scene, u don't need statistic to see that terran is the weakest race late game. The huge difference in win rate by game length is not only explained by what u just stated. It actually is explained quite well by what I said, and I follow the pro scene quite religiously. It is getting really annoying however thet 90% of SC2 balance whine comes from Terran players, when statisticly and observably they are the most powerful race right now. Anyone Who watches the pro scene, without a Terran bias, can see that terran can win quite well in the lategame if they don't lose a major battle in the early-midgame. Well, you did have a point at first, when you mentioned that terrans turtling hard when losing could skew results slightly: however, while it's worth keeping that in mind, I don't think that explains the huge swing in win:loss. Also, turtling is not possible in tvp due to no tanks or defensive bonsues, so terran's late game drop in win rate is not explainable by that. Unfortunately, you followed up this statement with nothing of substance. There is no way that "90%" of balance whine comes from terran, haha. Have you never heard of the traditional zerg whining, and the "sad zealot" whine? Frankly, that statement alone makes you look ridiculous. Other than that, arguably the strongest race RIGHT NOW, as in this very second, is probably protoss: at least, many, many pro players think so (boxer: "this is protoss generation", and forgg, polt demuslim etc. have all mentioned how hard protoss is) and is backed by impressive results in recent gsl (historically, of course, terran has been superior). Honestly, the only way you can reach such conclusions is by having your own bias, so your calls for terrans to see this without bias seem rather hypocritical of you. Ok maybe I'm pushing it a bit with the 90%, But you should reread the last few patch notes thread if you think the level of zerg or protoss whine is even close to the level of terran whine. That's because terran gets fucking nerfed every single patch.
+1. Every patch.
|
On February 12 2012 07:55 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:51 Szubie wrote:On February 12 2012 07:35 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:25 Torra wrote:On February 12 2012 07:16 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:07 mlspmatt wrote:On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote:I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him. LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose. This. Exactley. Late game TvZ is already in Zergs favor, this just tips the ballance even further. More 2 base timings and 1 base All-Ins which as a viewer pisses me off. 1/2 of Protoss games are already that way. Ghost play is some of the most entertaining play in SC2. Now wew're going to see far less of it. Late game is not really in zerg favor (let me explain). Due to the nature of the game If a terran wins early he just wins, if a zerg wins early he often has to do 10-15 mins of mopup so when he finally gets his GG, it may appear to be a lategme victory but was really not. Consider there are 10 games where nothing is really decided til lategame, zerg wins 5 and terran wins 5. (50% W/L) Now consider 10 more games that are decided in the early game terran wins 5 and ends them quickly, zerg also wins 5 and ends 3 quickly, but in 2 the terran uses mules, walls + repairing scv,s, defensive tanks, planetary fortresses, and other tactics to draw out the game even though he is 95% sure to lose it in the end. When zerg finally finishes him off it appears to be a lategame victory, but really isn't. This is the reason why terran might appear to be weaker late and stronger early if looking at the statistics alone. If u follow the pro scene, u don't need statistic to see that terran is the weakest race late game. The huge difference in win rate by game length is not only explained by what u just stated. It actually is explained quite well by what I said, and I follow the pro scene quite religiously. It is getting really annoying however thet 90% of SC2 balance whine comes from Terran players, when statisticly and observably they are the most powerful race right now. Anyone Who watches the pro scene, without a Terran bias, can see that terran can win quite well in the lategame if they don't lose a major battle in the early-midgame. Well, you did have a point at first, when you mentioned that terrans turtling hard when losing could skew results slightly: however, while it's worth keeping that in mind, I don't think that explains the huge swing in win:loss. Also, turtling is not possible in tvp due to no tanks or defensive bonsues, so terran's late game drop in win rate is not explainable by that. Unfortunately, you followed up this statement with nothing of substance. There is no way that "90%" of balance whine comes from terran, haha. Have you never heard of the traditional zerg whining, and the "sad zealot" whine? Frankly, that statement alone makes you look ridiculous. Other than that, arguably the strongest race RIGHT NOW, as in this very second, is probably protoss: at least, many, many pro players think so (boxer: "this is protoss generation", and forgg, polt demuslim etc. have all mentioned how hard protoss is) and is backed by impressive results in recent gsl (historically, of course, terran has been superior). Honestly, the only way you can reach such conclusions is by having your own bias, so your calls for terrans to see this without bias seem rather hypocritical of you. Ok maybe I'm pushing it a bit with the 90%, But you should reread the last few patch notes thread if you think the level of zerg or protoss whine is even close to the level of terran whine.
Not implying that terrans aren't whining right now, it's pretty clear they are. But protoss whine even has an official fan page, with a logo and everything! That's a level of dedication terrans havn't quite reached  .
Also, zergs seem to suffer from what I like to call "the Idra effect" and, at least early on in the game's history were renowned for whining in every LR thread when a zerg lost. But maybe both of us are partially affected by racial bias in terms of what we remember about balance whine...
|
reposting from my other thread
Hello all
With the upcoming change to snipe and possible resultant of less ghost massing, amidst all the rage and anger flying around the forums I got to thinking of how we (Terrans) can approach the dreaded Broodlord/Corruptor composition from Zerg.
Enter The Raven, if you have been playing Terran for a while you might have known that PDD used to be able to stop Broodlings, a few patches ago, that nifty little mechanic got removed, but here is where PDD may come in with 1.4.3 and beyond.
Since we already have vikings in our composition against end game Zerg we may be able to utilise raven and the PDD to our advantage, we may need to produce 2 ravens, bank up 200 energy on both (just like Protoss banks up energy on sentries for later use, same mindset here) and when the engagement comes in we would need to spread our vikings a little to minimise fungal exposure and with the help of 2+ PDDs (spread out to cover our vikings ofcourse!) to tank corruptor damage while we focus fire the broodlords!(may need a ghost or two to EMP queens if they bring them)
And think about it! now those 30 marines you have moving out won't all get blown up to pieces by 2 pesky little borrowed banes (with the help of your raven ofcorse! hah!)
So if you have any other ideas please reply and try to keep this a rage/whine free thread please!!!
Cheerios
|
United States13143 Posts
On February 12 2012 07:43 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:38 Phanekim wrote:
you never know how its going to work. people have constnatly nerfed terran. but terran have always risen to the top again because terran had so much untapped potential. so just cause you are buffing zerg doesn't mean terran can't adjust. maybe more raven usage. Very good point, zerg and protoss, use (and often) every unit at their disposal, simply because they have to. Tell a Terran to use a raven and they just laugh because their race is so well designed they have 3 units to a role and only need to use the most powerful one until it gets nerfed.
okay so let's put aside ghosts for a moment and talk about ravens in lategame tvz
autoturrets are obviously basically useless against blord/infestor/corruptor. PDD actually has a use(it can eat corruptor shots while your vikings attempt to kill the broodlords), but it's usually worse than just building more vikings.
But what about the mighty seeker missiles? Well, they cost 125 energy, meaning any raven can't shoot a seeker missile more than once every 70 game seconds, on average. Luckily, that's largely irrelevant; since seeker missiles only have 6 range, your raven will generally either die to corruptors, get neuraled and shoot the missile at your stuff, or get fungalled and die. The reward for managing to do this? Well, shooting a single missile with pathetic splash (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/b/bf/Marauderafter.jpg) that kills about 40% of a broodlord.
Oh, and there's a pretty good chance your raven is dead. luckily, that way you can use the supply for units which actually do things.
|
For once, I am excited about a patch! I've always thought air play was the scariest thing Protoss could do to Zerg, and the pheonix range upgrade will make it more viable. Snipe change was long overdue, but I don't understand why the damage buff goes to Psionic rather than light. EMP pretty much negated any psionic units anyway. MULEs are dumb anyway imho, so I'll welcome any nerfs to them with open arms lol.
|
Yay! Maps that i really like and are good and phoenix upgrade great changes imo
|
On February 12 2012 08:11 Szubie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:55 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:51 Szubie wrote:On February 12 2012 07:35 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:25 Torra wrote:On February 12 2012 07:16 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:07 mlspmatt wrote:On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:
[quote]
LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose. This. Exactley. Late game TvZ is already in Zergs favor, this just tips the ballance even further. More 2 base timings and 1 base All-Ins which as a viewer pisses me off. 1/2 of Protoss games are already that way. Ghost play is some of the most entertaining play in SC2. Now wew're going to see far less of it. Late game is not really in zerg favor (let me explain). Due to the nature of the game If a terran wins early he just wins, if a zerg wins early he often has to do 10-15 mins of mopup so when he finally gets his GG, it may appear to be a lategme victory but was really not. Consider there are 10 games where nothing is really decided til lategame, zerg wins 5 and terran wins 5. (50% W/L) Now consider 10 more games that are decided in the early game terran wins 5 and ends them quickly, zerg also wins 5 and ends 3 quickly, but in 2 the terran uses mules, walls + repairing scv,s, defensive tanks, planetary fortresses, and other tactics to draw out the game even though he is 95% sure to lose it in the end. When zerg finally finishes him off it appears to be a lategame victory, but really isn't. This is the reason why terran might appear to be weaker late and stronger early if looking at the statistics alone. If u follow the pro scene, u don't need statistic to see that terran is the weakest race late game. The huge difference in win rate by game length is not only explained by what u just stated. It actually is explained quite well by what I said, and I follow the pro scene quite religiously. It is getting really annoying however thet 90% of SC2 balance whine comes from Terran players, when statisticly and observably they are the most powerful race right now. Anyone Who watches the pro scene, without a Terran bias, can see that terran can win quite well in the lategame if they don't lose a major battle in the early-midgame. Well, you did have a point at first, when you mentioned that terrans turtling hard when losing could skew results slightly: however, while it's worth keeping that in mind, I don't think that explains the huge swing in win:loss. Also, turtling is not possible in tvp due to no tanks or defensive bonsues, so terran's late game drop in win rate is not explainable by that. Unfortunately, you followed up this statement with nothing of substance. There is no way that "90%" of balance whine comes from terran, haha. Have you never heard of the traditional zerg whining, and the "sad zealot" whine? Frankly, that statement alone makes you look ridiculous. Other than that, arguably the strongest race RIGHT NOW, as in this very second, is probably protoss: at least, many, many pro players think so (boxer: "this is protoss generation", and forgg, polt demuslim etc. have all mentioned how hard protoss is) and is backed by impressive results in recent gsl (historically, of course, terran has been superior). Honestly, the only way you can reach such conclusions is by having your own bias, so your calls for terrans to see this without bias seem rather hypocritical of you. Ok maybe I'm pushing it a bit with the 90%, But you should reread the last few patch notes thread if you think the level of zerg or protoss whine is even close to the level of terran whine. Not implying that terrans aren't whining right now, it's pretty clear they are. But protoss whine even has an official fan page, with a logo and everything! That's a level of dedication terrans havn't quite reached . Also, zergs seem to suffer from what I like to call "the Idra effect" and, at least early on in the game's history were renowned for whining in every LR thread when a zerg lost. But maybe both of us are partially affected by racial bias in terms of what we remember about balance whine...
Oh don't get me wrong, there are balance whiners from every race, however Z whine is mostly the 'Idra effect' (Understandable in the heat of the moment), and Protoss whine is/was due to Protoss being chronically the weakest race statistically and not having a good representation in the GSL code S (And protoss whining has noticeably dropped off recently as these trends have begun to change). However Terran whine is just annoying nonsensical because regardless of the nerfs it is still the strongest race at the high level, and the people whining often even admit this and still whine about it.
|
On February 12 2012 08:14 Gerlan wrote:
reposting from my other thread
Hello all
With the upcoming change to snipe and possible resultant of less ghost massing, amidst all the rage and anger flying around the forums I got to thinking of how we (Terrans) can approach the dreaded Broodlord/Corruptor composition from Zerg.
Enter The Raven, if you have been playing Terran for a while you might have known that PDD used to be able to stop Broodlings, a few patches ago, that nifty little mechanic got removed, but here is where PDD may come in with 1.4.3 and beyond.
Since we already have vikings in our composition against end game Zerg we may be able to utilise raven and the PDD to our advantage, we may need to produce 2 ravens, bank up 200 energy on both (just like Protoss banks up energy on sentries for later use, same mindset here) and when the engagement comes in we would need to spread our vikings a little to minimise fungal exposure and with the help of 2+ PDDs (spread out to cover our vikings ofcourse!) to tank corruptor damage while we focus fire the broodlords!(may need a ghost or two to EMP queens if they bring them)
And think about it! now those 30 marines you have moving out won't all get blown up to pieces by 2 pesky little borrowed banes (with the help of your raven ofcorse! hah!)
So if you have any other ideas please reply and try to keep this a rage/whine free thread please!!!
Cheerios
Even while this is possible, how much more demanding is than what zerg has to do to win the fight? Terran still has to spread marines, siege up their tanks, emp/snipe infestors, magic box in vikings, and drop 2 pdd's. Let's keep track, that's 4 micro intensive maneuvers, and 1 "a move" difficulty actions (seige). On top of that, it all needs to happen in about 3 seconds.
Zerg first engages with brood lords, waits for marines to charge forth and fungals them, then a-moves in zerglings/banelings, and maybe transfuse a few broodlords if need be. That's 2 a-move functions, and calling it 2 micro intensive maneuvers is being pretty generous. And they can take their sweet time waiting behind an infinite wall of freely reproducing zerg units (broodlings)
I get what you're saying that that's probably what will need to happen for Terrans to win, but at some point shouldn't Terrans be rewarded for having to extend so much extra effort?
BL/Infestor is almost a forshadowing of that new flying unit announced for HotS, has the ability that reduces all ranged units range to 1, only difference is that version will be even more retardedly easy to pull off. Destiny, even DESTINY can be quoted on SotG as saying "I can't imagine ever losing if I have infestors and this new unit/ability"
*edit in additional rant
|
On February 12 2012 07:43 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:38 Phanekim wrote:
you never know how its going to work. people have constnatly nerfed terran. but terran have always risen to the top again because terran had so much untapped potential. so just cause you are buffing zerg doesn't mean terran can't adjust. maybe more raven usage. Very good point, zerg and protoss, use (and often) every unit at their disposal, simply because they have to. Tell a Terran to use a raven and they just laugh because their race is so well designed they have 3 units to a role and only need to use the most powerful one until it gets nerfed.
Excellent point! Also, by extension, Terran gets nerfed so much because so many of their units received so little use due to other ones being sufficiently overpowered! Terran gets rewarded for microing more than the other two races do, due to unit design (largely in the form of ranged units), so the nerfs to their damage output may be shocking on paper, but in practice be acceptable to both sides (blueflame hellions are still used, and few people whine about how "weak" they are now, no?)
|
On February 12 2012 08:31 Doz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:14 Gerlan wrote:
reposting from my other thread
Hello all
With the upcoming change to snipe and possible resultant of less ghost massing, amidst all the rage and anger flying around the forums I got to thinking of how we (Terrans) can approach the dreaded Broodlord/Corruptor composition from Zerg.
Enter The Raven, if you have been playing Terran for a while you might have known that PDD used to be able to stop Broodlings, a few patches ago, that nifty little mechanic got removed, but here is where PDD may come in with 1.4.3 and beyond.
Since we already have vikings in our composition against end game Zerg we may be able to utilise raven and the PDD to our advantage, we may need to produce 2 ravens, bank up 200 energy on both (just like Protoss banks up energy on sentries for later use, same mindset here) and when the engagement comes in we would need to spread our vikings a little to minimise fungal exposure and with the help of 2+ PDDs (spread out to cover our vikings ofcourse!) to tank corruptor damage while we focus fire the broodlords!(may need a ghost or two to EMP queens if they bring them)
And think about it! now those 30 marines you have moving out won't all get blown up to pieces by 2 pesky little borrowed banes (with the help of your raven ofcorse! hah!)
So if you have any other ideas please reply and try to keep this a rage/whine free thread please!!!
Cheerios Even while this is possible, how much more demanding is than what zerg has to do to win the fight? Terran still has to spread marines, siege up their tanks, emp/snipe infestors, magic box in vikings, and drop 2 pdd's. Let's keep track, that's 4 micro intensive maneuvers, and 1 "a move" difficulty actions (seige). On top of that, it all needs to happen in about 3 seconds. Zerg first engages with brood lords, waits for marines to charge forth and fungals them, then a-moves in zerglings/banelings, and maybe transfuse a few broodlords if need be. That's 2 a-move functions, and calling it 2 micro intensive maneuvers is being pretty generous. And they can take their sweet time waiting behind an infinite wall of freely reproducing zerg units (broodlings) I get what you're saying that that's probably what will need to happen for Terrans to win, but at some point shouldn't Terrans be rewarded for having to extend so much extra effort?
How many multipronged drops have you done? How many times have you 2rax'd and absolutely decimated your opponent because you micro'd well?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
