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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 02:40 Thorzain wrote:
I really feel that they overdid the snipe nerf. Ghosts really isn't a counter to ultralisks (300 energy to kill 1 ultralisk), and not a hard-counter to brood lords (they are good against them but not imba).
I feel that 20 damage is too much of a removal. When snipe doesn't even one shot a baneling or a zergling, something is wrong. Will be useless against zealots as well because the normal attack is just as strong as the snipe will be against light units.
I agree with this post, I think it's silly. I haven't really thought about how it would be like if they nerfed it by cost instead if they must nerf it but it can't be worse at least
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I think the phoenix change is dumb. Whos gonna get fleetbeacon? when ur on like 2 base (if you FFE). It more efficient to have cannon and blink and go towards templar tech.
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Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles.
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On February 12 2012 08:37 CreativeAlias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:31 Doz wrote:On February 12 2012 08:14 Gerlan wrote:
reposting from my other thread
Hello all
With the upcoming change to snipe and possible resultant of less ghost massing, amidst all the rage and anger flying around the forums I got to thinking of how we (Terrans) can approach the dreaded Broodlord/Corruptor composition from Zerg.
Enter The Raven, if you have been playing Terran for a while you might have known that PDD used to be able to stop Broodlings, a few patches ago, that nifty little mechanic got removed, but here is where PDD may come in with 1.4.3 and beyond.
Since we already have vikings in our composition against end game Zerg we may be able to utilise raven and the PDD to our advantage, we may need to produce 2 ravens, bank up 200 energy on both (just like Protoss banks up energy on sentries for later use, same mindset here) and when the engagement comes in we would need to spread our vikings a little to minimise fungal exposure and with the help of 2+ PDDs (spread out to cover our vikings ofcourse!) to tank corruptor damage while we focus fire the broodlords!(may need a ghost or two to EMP queens if they bring them)
And think about it! now those 30 marines you have moving out won't all get blown up to pieces by 2 pesky little borrowed banes (with the help of your raven ofcorse! hah!)
So if you have any other ideas please reply and try to keep this a rage/whine free thread please!!!
Cheerios Even while this is possible, how much more demanding is than what zerg has to do to win the fight? Terran still has to spread marines, siege up their tanks, emp/snipe infestors, magic box in vikings, and drop 2 pdd's. Let's keep track, that's 4 micro intensive maneuvers, and 1 "a move" difficulty actions (seige). On top of that, it all needs to happen in about 3 seconds. Zerg first engages with brood lords, waits for marines to charge forth and fungals them, then a-moves in zerglings/banelings, and maybe transfuse a few broodlords if need be. That's 2 a-move functions, and calling it 2 micro intensive maneuvers is being pretty generous. And they can take their sweet time waiting behind an infinite wall of freely reproducing zerg units (broodlings) I get what you're saying that that's probably what will need to happen for Terrans to win, but at some point shouldn't Terrans be rewarded for having to extend so much extra effort? How many multipronged drops have you done? How many times have you 2rax'd and absolutely decimated your opponent because you micro'd well?
You know you can do multipronged drops as well right?
You just haven't tried...
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On February 12 2012 08:40 SC2MuffinMan wrote:
I think the phoenix change is dumb. Whos gonna get fleetbeacon? when ur on like 2 base (if you FFE). It more efficient to have cannon and blink and go towards templar tech.
I think it's too much too late.
+2 seems like a ridiculous amount really and you get it too late. I'd like to see how +1 base range would play out
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On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
K. So you'd be willing to drop broodlords and ultra's down to BC/Thor level, at least in their synergy with the rest of your army? Then we could call it fair, you'll infestors, we'll have un-nerfed ghosts, and neither will have valid T3 units. Just T1, like Terran has now.
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On February 12 2012 08:41 Doz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:37 CreativeAlias wrote:On February 12 2012 08:31 Doz wrote:On February 12 2012 08:14 Gerlan wrote:
reposting from my other thread
Hello all
With the upcoming change to snipe and possible resultant of less ghost massing, amidst all the rage and anger flying around the forums I got to thinking of how we (Terrans) can approach the dreaded Broodlord/Corruptor composition from Zerg.
Enter The Raven, if you have been playing Terran for a while you might have known that PDD used to be able to stop Broodlings, a few patches ago, that nifty little mechanic got removed, but here is where PDD may come in with 1.4.3 and beyond.
Since we already have vikings in our composition against end game Zerg we may be able to utilise raven and the PDD to our advantage, we may need to produce 2 ravens, bank up 200 energy on both (just like Protoss banks up energy on sentries for later use, same mindset here) and when the engagement comes in we would need to spread our vikings a little to minimise fungal exposure and with the help of 2+ PDDs (spread out to cover our vikings ofcourse!) to tank corruptor damage while we focus fire the broodlords!(may need a ghost or two to EMP queens if they bring them)
And think about it! now those 30 marines you have moving out won't all get blown up to pieces by 2 pesky little borrowed banes (with the help of your raven ofcorse! hah!)
So if you have any other ideas please reply and try to keep this a rage/whine free thread please!!!
Cheerios Even while this is possible, how much more demanding is than what zerg has to do to win the fight? Terran still has to spread marines, siege up their tanks, emp/snipe infestors, magic box in vikings, and drop 2 pdd's. Let's keep track, that's 4 micro intensive maneuvers, and 1 "a move" difficulty actions (seige). On top of that, it all needs to happen in about 3 seconds. Zerg first engages with brood lords, waits for marines to charge forth and fungals them, then a-moves in zerglings/banelings, and maybe transfuse a few broodlords if need be. That's 2 a-move functions, and calling it 2 micro intensive maneuvers is being pretty generous. And they can take their sweet time waiting behind an infinite wall of freely reproducing zerg units (broodlings) I get what you're saying that that's probably what will need to happen for Terrans to win, but at some point shouldn't Terrans be rewarded for having to extend so much extra effort? How many multipronged drops have you done? How many times have you 2rax'd and absolutely decimated your opponent because you micro'd well? You know you can do multipronged drops as well right? You just haven't tried...
True, but not my point. I was attempting to help you recall that Terrans are indeed rewarded for the massive amounts of micro that (it can be argued) must be done. Also, overlords have this nasty habit of being slow and not healing the units they drop 
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boxer's words : "now toss very powerful T.T, and next patch, lol, ok"
It's settled guys, nothing else needs to be discussed.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
What are these T3, backbone units for Terran?
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I just think its sad. I really don't think people at Masters and Grand Masters level are going to play Terran anymore. Its going to be a pro race, reserved for elite level play.
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Snipe changes are absolutely retarded.
At the very least, snipe should do bonus damage to light and psionic. But then I guess that wouldn't make sense, since it's supposed to "ignore armor."
How is this any different than what they originally wanted ghosts to have, 'psi round' bullshit.
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Yeah, Boxer says he hates new patch, so it's not good
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9zyKYl.jpg)
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On February 12 2012 08:46 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
What are these T3, backbone units for Terran?
Ghost, Raven, Thor, Siege tank. The terran tier 3 gets phased in slower than tier 3 for zerg,
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On February 12 2012 08:50 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:46 Sapphire.lux wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
What are these T3, backbone units for Terran? Ghost, Raven, Thor, Siege tank. The terran tier 3 gets phased in slower than tier 3 for zerg,
Siege tank is not a tier 3 unit, lmao.
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Two years in and we're still discussing units in tiers...
On topic: I've been ok with 90% of the changes Blizzard has made, and the nerfs to terran. I'm ok with the mule nerf and I think it was a clever way to change mules to solve the issue with gold bases, but god damn is the snipe nerf badly implemented.
On February 12 2012 08:52 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:45 R!! wrote:
boxer's words : "now toss very powerful T.T, and next patch, lol, ok"
It's settled guys, nothing else needs to be discussed. A very accomplished but currently not top level terran has commented on future TvP balance based on the pre PTR patch notes that will barely affect the TvP matchup much at all. (Ghosts cant snipe chargelots well anymore but they weren't even close to as good as BFH were in the first place) Argument over, might as well close the thread now.
BFH are awful against chargelots, and they always have been. You're better off spamming reapers.
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On February 12 2012 08:45 R!! wrote:
boxer's words : "now toss very powerful T.T, and next patch, lol, ok"
It's settled guys, nothing else needs to be discussed.
A very accomplished but currently not top level terran has commented on future TvP balance based on the pre PTR patch notes that will barely affect the TvP matchup much at all. (Ghosts cant snipe chargelots well anymore but they weren't even close to as good as BFH were in the first place)
Argument over, might as well close the thread now.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 12 2012 08:50 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:46 Sapphire.lux wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
What are these T3, backbone units for Terran? Ghost, Raven, Thor, Siege tank. The terran tier 3 gets phased in slower than tier 3 for zerg,
Luckily, we can remove ravens for free(except against terran, they're decent against vikings in super-lategame and useful against banshees), and remove thors almost for free.
Also, I have no idea how you can argue siege tanks are tier 3 when banshees are harder to get to.
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On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles.
We waste our time posting responses about innefective tier 3 units to counter your Tier 3 and tier 2.5 units a.k.a infestors..Have you ever wonder why ppl even if they have an economy advantage stay on marine/tank/medivac with the occasional thor???Because they have nothing to transition to..Get your facts straight.We don't like to base our game on a unit that easily dies to mass tier 1 units anyway.We want viable late game units that capitalize on our mid to late game advantage(if that exists at any given game)
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On February 12 2012 08:31 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:11 Szubie wrote:On February 12 2012 07:55 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:51 Szubie wrote:On February 12 2012 07:35 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:25 Torra wrote:On February 12 2012 07:16 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:07 mlspmatt wrote:On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:
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If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose. This. Exactley. Late game TvZ is already in Zergs favor, this just tips the ballance even further. More 2 base timings and 1 base All-Ins which as a viewer pisses me off. 1/2 of Protoss games are already that way. Ghost play is some of the most entertaining play in SC2. Now wew're going to see far less of it. Late game is not really in zerg favor (let me explain). Due to the nature of the game If a terran wins early he just wins, if a zerg wins early he often has to do 10-15 mins of mopup so when he finally gets his GG, it may appear to be a lategme victory but was really not. Consider there are 10 games where nothing is really decided til lategame, zerg wins 5 and terran wins 5. (50% W/L) Now consider 10 more games that are decided in the early game terran wins 5 and ends them quickly, zerg also wins 5 and ends 3 quickly, but in 2 the terran uses mules, walls + repairing scv,s, defensive tanks, planetary fortresses, and other tactics to draw out the game even though he is 95% sure to lose it in the end. When zerg finally finishes him off it appears to be a lategame victory, but really isn't. This is the reason why terran might appear to be weaker late and stronger early if looking at the statistics alone. If u follow the pro scene, u don't need statistic to see that terran is the weakest race late game. The huge difference in win rate by game length is not only explained by what u just stated. It actually is explained quite well by what I said, and I follow the pro scene quite religiously. It is getting really annoying however thet 90% of SC2 balance whine comes from Terran players, when statisticly and observably they are the most powerful race right now. Anyone Who watches the pro scene, without a Terran bias, can see that terran can win quite well in the lategame if they don't lose a major battle in the early-midgame. Well, you did have a point at first, when you mentioned that terrans turtling hard when losing could skew results slightly: however, while it's worth keeping that in mind, I don't think that explains the huge swing in win:loss. Also, turtling is not possible in tvp due to no tanks or defensive bonsues, so terran's late game drop in win rate is not explainable by that. Unfortunately, you followed up this statement with nothing of substance. There is no way that "90%" of balance whine comes from terran, haha. Have you never heard of the traditional zerg whining, and the "sad zealot" whine? Frankly, that statement alone makes you look ridiculous. Other than that, arguably the strongest race RIGHT NOW, as in this very second, is probably protoss: at least, many, many pro players think so (boxer: "this is protoss generation", and forgg, polt demuslim etc. have all mentioned how hard protoss is) and is backed by impressive results in recent gsl (historically, of course, terran has been superior). Honestly, the only way you can reach such conclusions is by having your own bias, so your calls for terrans to see this without bias seem rather hypocritical of you. Ok maybe I'm pushing it a bit with the 90%, But you should reread the last few patch notes thread if you think the level of zerg or protoss whine is even close to the level of terran whine. Not implying that terrans aren't whining right now, it's pretty clear they are. But protoss whine even has an official fan page, with a logo and everything! That's a level of dedication terrans havn't quite reached  . Also, zergs seem to suffer from what I like to call "the Idra effect" and, at least early on in the game's history were renowned for whining in every LR thread when a zerg lost. But maybe both of us are partially affected by racial bias in terms of what we remember about balance whine... Oh don't get me wrong, there are balance whiners from every race, however Z whine is mostly the 'Idra effect' (Understandable in the heat of the moment), and Protoss whine is/was due to Protoss being chronically the weakest race statistically and not having a good representation in the GSL code S (And protoss whining has noticeably dropped off recently as these trends have begun to change). However Terran whine is just annoying nonsensical because regardless of the nerfs it is still the strongest race at the high level, and the people whining often even admit this and still whine about it.
Whining about the whiners are we? This thread just gets better and better.
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