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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 12 2012 08:52 Dalavita wrote:
Two years in and we're still discussing units in tiers...
On topic: I've been ok with 90% of the changes Blizzard has made, and the nerfs to terran. I'm ok with the mule nerf and I think it was a clever way to change mules to solve the issue with gold bases, but god damn is the snipe nerf badly implemented.
Yeah, that was my point. There is tech and more advanced tech. The races are so different that it's impossible to make broad generalizations that work for all 3 races.
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On February 12 2012 08:51 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:50 Bippzy wrote:On February 12 2012 08:46 Sapphire.lux wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
What are these T3, backbone units for Terran? Ghost, Raven, Thor, Siege tank. The terran tier 3 gets phased in slower than tier 3 for zerg, Siege tank is not a tier 3 unit, lmao.
Tell you what. I play mainly mech in all 3 MU. Here is how tech tiers work for me:
0-2 siege tanks tier 1
2-7 siege tanks tier 2
a lot of siege tanks tier 3
:p
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On February 12 2012 07:48 BreakfastBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:16 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:07 mlspmatt wrote:On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote:I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him. LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose. This. Exactley. Late game TvZ is already in Zergs favor, this just tips the ballance even further. More 2 base timings and 1 base All-Ins which as a viewer pisses me off. 1/2 of Protoss games are already that way. Ghost play is some of the most entertaining play in SC2. Now wew're going to see far less of it. Late game is not really in zerg favor (let me explain). Due to the nature of the game If a terran wins early he just wins, if a zerg wins early he often has to do 10-15 mins of mopup so when he finally gets his GG, it may appear to be a lategme victory but was really not. Consider there are 10 games where nothing is really decided til lategame, zerg wins 5 and terran wins 5. (50% W/L) Now consider 10 more games that are decided in the early game terran wins 5 and ends them quickly, zerg also wins 5 and ends 3 quickly, but in 2 the terran uses mules, walls + repairing scv,s, defensive tanks, planetary fortresses, and other tactics to draw out the game even though he is 95% sure to lose it in the end. When zerg finally finishes him off it appears to be a lategame victory, but really isn't. This is the reason why terran might appear to be weaker late and stronger early if looking at the statistics alone. This is a very insightful post, thank you. I always wondered why it was so skewed towards Terran having a low w/l as the game went on- This makes a lot of sense. It is very difficult to close out a terran haha. Thorzain vs DRG dreamhack finals. on topic: happy about all the changes, i dont like seeing 12 ultras quickly die to ghosts.... Phoenix seems just right! Since you have to pay for the fleet beacon and upgrade now... Perfect amount of time/money investment, because 6 range makes phoenix a pretty badass unit. is there a custom game with all of these changes edited in?
Insightful though it may be, the fact is it's still harder for Terran in the late-game than Zerg.
If 12 ultras die quickly to ghosts, there would have to be 30+ ghosts, or 15+ with a lot of MMM and Siege tanks.
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On February 12 2012 08:53 Tulkas25 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles. We waste our time posting responses about innefective tier 3 units to counter your Tier 3 and tier 2.5 units a.k.a infestors..Have you ever wonder why ppl even if they have an economy advantage stay on marine/tank/medivac with the occasional thor???Because they have nothing to transition to..Get your facts straight.We don't like to base our game on a unit that easily dies to mass tier 1 units anyway.We want viable late game units that capitalize on our mid to late game advantage(if that exists at any given game)
I implore you to think before speaking. Terran has units to transition to, here are some examples: Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser. Terran 's refusing to try and incorporate them into their army is a whole different story. This is why I admire White Ra. He makes use of the underused Carrier and makes it a very viable and powerful unit. Just because Terran's still have yet to discover how to use these units properly is not a valid reason to say " we have nothing to transition into".
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I bet after the patch implemented TvZ win/lose ratio will favor much more T.
I mean almost everybody says it became harder everyday against both T&P late game. My thought is
1)some of macro T players will switch to T or P (Which will potentially decrease T wins)
2)most of macro T players will favor allin styles (Which will potentially increase T wins)
And Blizzard will see "Win rates are favor T at the moment. Why is that?"
Then they will decrease efficiency of T all ins. (Rax build time +5, Bunker salvage nerf, Stim time nerf, Immortal buff and the list goes on.)
And the circle completes...
I mean c'mon. After snipe nerf there will be no hard counter for both Ultra's and BL's. Yeah Raven is "an option" against BL. But waiting for Ghost energy isn't same as waiting for Raven energy (also you HAVE to build lots of more Starports and add tech labs and wait for 125 energy...) Lets think we crushed BL's with HSM. How can we use 75 (hopefully 75) raven energy against ultras?....
I'm sorry but i'm switching my gameplay. Lets do all in everygame against Z..
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On February 12 2012 07:48 BreakfastBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:16 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:07 mlspmatt wrote:On February 12 2012 06:42 Dalavita wrote:On February 12 2012 06:39 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 06:33 SolidMoose wrote:On February 12 2012 05:46 Apolo wrote:I'd like to remind you guys of something. Never, since 2011, has terran been below 51% of win rate aggainst Zerg. They have always have the advantage in the matchup. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Even if this patch were to tip the scales in the other way, it would only been fair for Zergs, after always going to a match knowing aggainst and equal skill opponent, they have less chances to win than him. LOL two wrongs don't make a right. Making zerg heavily favored doesn't fix anything because of past data. If you think this patch will magically shift the TvZ balance from slightly T favored to a massively Z Favored, then there is something wrong with your head, it will most likely have a minor effect at best and may not even put zerg over 50% (much bigger changes have been shown, in the past, to have relatively minor effects on W/L stats) we will have to wait 1-2 months after the patch is released and statistics have stabilized, to even try to figure out the results of this. The nerf won't even change a thing statistically, because terrans will all-in and develop two base timings more. Will it make the game worse because the matchups become more one-dimensional and crappy? yes Will it fuck up terran lategame even more than it currently is? YES TvZ is going to turn into what TvP is today. Cripple your opponent before 20 minutes, or lose. This. Exactley. Late game TvZ is already in Zergs favor, this just tips the ballance even further. More 2 base timings and 1 base All-Ins which as a viewer pisses me off. 1/2 of Protoss games are already that way. Ghost play is some of the most entertaining play in SC2. Now wew're going to see far less of it. Late game is not really in zerg favor (let me explain). Due to the nature of the game If a terran wins early he just wins, if a zerg wins early he often has to do 10-15 mins of mopup so when he finally gets his GG, it may appear to be a lategme victory but was really not. Consider there are 10 games where nothing is really decided til lategame, zerg wins 5 and terran wins 5. (50% W/L) Now consider 10 more games that are decided in the early game terran wins 5 and ends them quickly, zerg also wins 5 and ends 3 quickly, but in 2 the terran uses mules, walls + repairing scv,s, defensive tanks, planetary fortresses, and other tactics to draw out the game even though he is 95% sure to lose it in the end. When zerg finally finishes him off it appears to be a lategame victory, but really isn't. This is the reason why terran might appear to be weaker late and stronger early if looking at the statistics alone. This is a very insightful post, thank you. I always wondered why it was so skewed towards Terran having a low w/l as the game went on- This makes a lot of sense. It is very difficult to close out a terran haha. Thorzain vs DRG dreamhack finals.
Yeah, I can kinda see where the argument about "Zerg is advantaged late game anyway" is coming from, but "early late" game is not exactly the same as "late late" game.
I'm obviously not on a level for which balance patches should be made, but this season, I have a 47% winratio vs ZvT. That's a combination of a
35% winratio 0-20 minutes
70% winratio 20-30 minutes
20% winratio 30+ minutes
Maybe Blizzard was looking at very late game here?
Ideally, we might want a 50% winratio at every stage of the game in every matchup, but that'll be really difficult to achieve.
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On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles.
Your reasoning is stupid.
If we follow that, Feedback is the most broken ability in the game, which we know it isn'"t.
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On February 12 2012 09:03 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:53 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles. We waste our time posting responses about innefective tier 3 units to counter your Tier 3 and tier 2.5 units a.k.a infestors..Have you ever wonder why ppl even if they have an economy advantage stay on marine/tank/medivac with the occasional thor???Because they have nothing to transition to..Get your facts straight.We don't like to base our game on a unit that easily dies to mass tier 1 units anyway.We want viable late game units that capitalize on our mid to late game advantage(if that exists at any given game) I implore you to think before speaking. Terran has units to transition to, here are some examples: Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser. Terran 's refusing to try and incorporate them into their army is a whole different story. This is why I admire White Ra. He makes use of the underused Carrier and makes it a very viable and powerful unit. Just because Terran's still have yet to discover how to use these units properly is not a valid reason to say " we have nothing to transition into".
Because these Terran T3 Units get owned by the other races' casters like Ultras and Broodlords get owned by Ghosts. They all have energy, so in TvP you get owned by feedback and a couple of storms + Blink kills of the remainder of the Battlecruisers. And in TvZ these units get chain-fungled to death + Corruptor support.
So tell me how these units are going to work against any non-dumb opponent.
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On February 12 2012 09:03 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:53 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles. We waste our time posting responses about innefective tier 3 units to counter your Tier 3 and tier 2.5 units a.k.a infestors..Have you ever wonder why ppl even if they have an economy advantage stay on marine/tank/medivac with the occasional thor???Because they have nothing to transition to..Get your facts straight.We don't like to base our game on a unit that easily dies to mass tier 1 units anyway.We want viable late game units that capitalize on our mid to late game advantage(if that exists at any given game) I implore you to think before speaking. Terran has units to transition to, here are some examples: Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser. Terran 's refusing to try and incorporate them into their army is a whole different story. This is why I admire White Ra. He makes use of the underused Carrier and makes it a very viable and powerful unit. Just because Terran's still have yet to discover how to use these units properly is not a valid reason to say " we have nothing to transition into".
No we have some options for transition. But we cannot wait for their upgrades, we cannot build toooo many production facilities, we cannot replenish our army quickly.
I mean. lets think a TvZ game. T chooses mech and start upgrades. he build 5-6 factories and techlabs for tank and thor production. He reaches at least 3/0 upgrades. And you're saying
"Build 10 rax and start:
-Stim, Shield, Conc Shells, and 3/3 bio upgrades.
orrr you say go air.
Build 5 starports
-Raven energy, banshee cloak, 3/3 air upgrades..."
ITS IMPOSIBRUUU!!!!!
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On February 12 2012 09:11 tobiii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:03 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:53 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles. We waste our time posting responses about innefective tier 3 units to counter your Tier 3 and tier 2.5 units a.k.a infestors..Have you ever wonder why ppl even if they have an economy advantage stay on marine/tank/medivac with the occasional thor???Because they have nothing to transition to..Get your facts straight.We don't like to base our game on a unit that easily dies to mass tier 1 units anyway.We want viable late game units that capitalize on our mid to late game advantage(if that exists at any given game) I implore you to think before speaking. Terran has units to transition to, here are some examples: Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser. Terran 's refusing to try and incorporate them into their army is a whole different story. This is why I admire White Ra. He makes use of the underused Carrier and makes it a very viable and powerful unit. Just because Terran's still have yet to discover how to use these units properly is not a valid reason to say " we have nothing to transition into". Because these Terran T3 Units get owned by the other races' casters like Ultras and Broodlords get owned by Ghosts. They all have energy, so in TvP you get owned by feedback and a couple of storms + Blink kills of the remainder of the Battlecruisers. And in TvZ these units get chain-fungled to death + Corruptor support. So tell me how these units are going to work against any non-dumb opponent.
Not to mention the huge upgrade advantage if coming from marine-tank. At most a terrans air upgrades will be 1/1 or 2/0.
And whats this, the zerg scouts that terrans are pouring gas into air dominance? Guess ill make Ultras instead.
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On February 12 2012 09:08 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles. Your reasoning is stupid. If we follow that, Feedback is the most broken ability in the game, which we know it isn'"t.
Think about your response a little more next time please. Feedback is not the same as snipe. Feedback can't kill any major unit I can think of. It is outranged by almost everything. Snipe > Feedback. Raven just needs to stay out of range. Same with infestor.
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On February 12 2012 09:11 tobiii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:03 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:53 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles. We waste our time posting responses about innefective tier 3 units to counter your Tier 3 and tier 2.5 units a.k.a infestors..Have you ever wonder why ppl even if they have an economy advantage stay on marine/tank/medivac with the occasional thor???Because they have nothing to transition to..Get your facts straight.We don't like to base our game on a unit that easily dies to mass tier 1 units anyway.We want viable late game units that capitalize on our mid to late game advantage(if that exists at any given game) I implore you to think before speaking. Terran has units to transition to, here are some examples: Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser. Terran 's refusing to try and incorporate them into their army is a whole different story. This is why I admire White Ra. He makes use of the underused Carrier and makes it a very viable and powerful unit. Just because Terran's still have yet to discover how to use these units properly is not a valid reason to say " we have nothing to transition into". Because these Terran T3 Units get owned by the other races' casters like Ultras and Broodlords get owned by Ghosts. They all have energy, so in TvP you get owned by feedback and a couple of storms + Blink kills of the remainder of the Battlecruisers. And in TvZ these units get chain-fungled to death + Corruptor support. So tell me how these units are going to work against any non-dumb opponent.
Not going to argue with you. Units have different roles depending on the matchup. If it is going to become hopeless to win as Terran after patch just quit or switch races. You guys are making way too big a deal about a simple change. You guys still have the ghost, now think of new strategies.
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blizzard has said they want a certain balance for all leagues, right now, that is not achieved at all.
terrans overreliance on micro makes them powerful at 200 effective apm, then a zerg or protoss would wish they could get that much mileage out of their units through sheer micro, when casuals clash however, terran has always the disadvantage in the lategame, either cheese or hit a 1 or 2base timing with as much harrassment squeezed in as your micro allows you to.
HOTS will change this, the battlehellion is designed to stand its ground, and with no stutterstepmicro backwards required, it can protect the fragile damagedealers in the terran army, so that we actually do not have to kite protossarmies all the way back to our production, or simply spread everything to minimize zergs aoepotential.
to people saying "try bc or raven":
the battlecruiser has 11 damage AG with full upgrades, meaning it will deal FIVE points of damage against an ultralisk per shot, AA is 9 damage fully upgraded, meaning FOUR damage per shot against corruptors, frankly, as long as they do not lower the attackspeed of the BC while increasing the damage per shot, this unit is worthless (but the laserbarrage looks COOL)
but... do we have 3 attackupgrades on air before even building one BC? it is more like that we start with +0, or +1, worst case a bc does 2 damage versus an ultralisk, and one damage versus a corruptor, and please, dont scream "skyterran" if the opponent knows, it is easy to counter.
the autoturret of the raven has no meaning lategame, it just dies, and even if not, 8 dmg per shot is not good, the pdd of course has its uses, but even if it reduces the damage from the corruptors, there is still fungal, and at long last, the hunter seeker missile: basically every zergunit on creep will get away, and if we manage to hurt the broodlords or hopefully kill them, we have a unit that is useless for at least 90 ingame seconds, likely more.
so "try carriers" or "try doublenydus" please.
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On February 12 2012 09:11 tobiii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:03 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:53 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles. We waste our time posting responses about innefective tier 3 units to counter your Tier 3 and tier 2.5 units a.k.a infestors..Have you ever wonder why ppl even if they have an economy advantage stay on marine/tank/medivac with the occasional thor???Because they have nothing to transition to..Get your facts straight.We don't like to base our game on a unit that easily dies to mass tier 1 units anyway.We want viable late game units that capitalize on our mid to late game advantage(if that exists at any given game) I implore you to think before speaking. Terran has units to transition to, here are some examples: Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser. Terran 's refusing to try and incorporate them into their army is a whole different story. This is why I admire White Ra. He makes use of the underused Carrier and makes it a very viable and powerful unit. Just because Terran's still have yet to discover how to use these units properly is not a valid reason to say " we have nothing to transition into". Because these Terran T3 Units get owned by the other races' casters like Ultras and Broodlords get owned by Ghosts. They all have energy, so in TvP you get owned by feedback and a couple of storms + Blink kills of the remainder of the Battlecruisers. And in TvZ these units get chain-fungled to death + Corruptor support. So tell me how these units are going to work against any non-dumb opponent.
Ghosts are T1.5 and completely destroy Ultra/BL, ht are T3 and at most do 50% damage to BC/Thor (And the T player has to be playing poorly for even this to happen). How is that even close to "owning Terran T3 like ghosts own BL/Ultra?
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United States13143 Posts
On February 12 2012 09:16 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:08 Noocta wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles. Your reasoning is stupid. If we follow that, Feedback is the most broken ability in the game, which we know it isn'"t. Think about your response a little more next time please. Feedback is not the same as snipe. Feedback can't kill any major unit I can think of. It is outranged by almost everything. Snipe > Feedback. Raven just needs to stay out of range. Same with infestor.
And what do you plan to do with this raven? It's not close enough to seeker missile(not that seeker missile does all that much relative to mana cost anyway), PDD does almost nothing against a lategame protoss army, and autoturrets are kind of bleh.
Mind you, I do build ravens. I build them as uncloaked observers which cost 3 times as much. My mechanics are poor enough that it's worth it for me to not lose a handful of units to each DT while I'm trying to multitask or whatever.
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On February 12 2012 09:23 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:11 tobiii wrote:On February 12 2012 09:03 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:53 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles. We waste our time posting responses about innefective tier 3 units to counter your Tier 3 and tier 2.5 units a.k.a infestors..Have you ever wonder why ppl even if they have an economy advantage stay on marine/tank/medivac with the occasional thor???Because they have nothing to transition to..Get your facts straight.We don't like to base our game on a unit that easily dies to mass tier 1 units anyway.We want viable late game units that capitalize on our mid to late game advantage(if that exists at any given game) I implore you to think before speaking. Terran has units to transition to, here are some examples: Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser. Terran 's refusing to try and incorporate them into their army is a whole different story. This is why I admire White Ra. He makes use of the underused Carrier and makes it a very viable and powerful unit. Just because Terran's still have yet to discover how to use these units properly is not a valid reason to say " we have nothing to transition into". Because these Terran T3 Units get owned by the other races' casters like Ultras and Broodlords get owned by Ghosts. They all have energy, so in TvP you get owned by feedback and a couple of storms + Blink kills of the remainder of the Battlecruisers. And in TvZ these units get chain-fungled to death + Corruptor support. So tell me how these units are going to work against any non-dumb opponent. Ghosts are T1.5 and completely destroy Ultra/BL, ht are T3 and at most do 50% damage to BC/Thor (And the T player has to be playing poorly for even this to happen). How is that even close to "owning Terran T3 like ghosts own BL/Ultra?
Ghosts are not tier 1.5. They are tier 2.5.
RAX with tech lab are tier 1.5. Ghosts require that + the ghosts academy which makes them tier 2.5.
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On February 12 2012 09:16 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:08 Noocta wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles. Your reasoning is stupid. If we follow that, Feedback is the most broken ability in the game, which we know it isn'"t. Think about your response a little more next time please. Feedback is not the same as snipe. Feedback can't kill any major unit I can think of. It is outranged by almost everything. Snipe > Feedback. Raven just needs to stay out of range. Same with infestor.
Snip)e only have 1 more range than Feedback.
Feedback is used to kill instantly energy unit for free.
And feedback is used on a lot more target than snipe anyway.
I'm not saying feedback is too good, just that your reasoning for snipe being OP is stupid.
Spells kill shit. For energy only. That's why they are god damn spell, and why we make god damn caster units.
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i really really really like the APM change.
i don't really have an opinion on anyhting else LOL
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This thought is taking things a little bit far but it might still be considerable: Will protoss air become more viable over longer periods of time with the phoenix upgrade?
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EPT
