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I think the Bisu build metagamed a lot of players in BW
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On February 03 2012 03:54 pandaburn wrote:
1: You are playing on a map where Nexus First is a commonly used build for protoss, and so decide to proxy gate/rax or 6pool. You claim this is a "metagame choice".
2: You say "there is a lot of hellion use in the current KR metagame."
3: You remind your opponent that the last time you played, you mopped the floor with his noob self. As this statement is outside the rules of Starcraft 2 as a game, but is intended to give you an advantage, it is "metagaming".
This is what I believe:
1. The correct term for this is "playing against a trend".
2. This is a vague example and doesn't serve any clarifying purposes. I believe "meta" is a deeper strategy level beyond simple build orders, army compositions and timings.
3. The correct term this could be "playing your opponent psychologically" or "intimidation".
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Canada13389 Posts
There was a time on TL where Metagame was bannable word.
Part of the holy trinity:
Bonjwa
Metagame
Troll
O.O
Also, the use of the word paradigm is technically more correct if you want to use words available in the dictionary
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Aha, this thread caught my eye as recently i've gotten more into the competitive Pokemon-playing community, and specifically, smogon.
I won't pretend that I fully understand the proper use of the word "metagame", but i'm pretty sure that using it to describe anything even vaguely related to the current state of how things are in a certain tier, is incorrect. LOL.
As far as SC2 goes, though, I suppose it is rather abused, yeah. It seems that people find it appropriate to use whenever an opponent is being tricked in any sort of way, whatsoever.
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I played MTG too so I can't help but use it in the same manner as you do. I agree with your usage and to all of the Starcraft people out there who think that I am using it wrong I suggest you look up the definition for 'set'. 
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Metagaming is using information outside the game to gain an advantage. It's more about knowledge than mind games though. It could be knowing the likelyhood of a strategy being used against you based on the current popular strategies - like your definition, but it could also be knowing specificially how your one oponent is likely to play and using that to your advantage.
If you watched some replays of your oponent and create a strategy to specifically do well against his playstyle and/or prefered strategy, you would be metagaming him.
Trying to decrease a players performance by reminding him you won the last game is slightly different I would say.
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I'm still waiting on chill to comment on this lololol : )
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I agree that taunting your opponent into making mistakes etc is not metagame, but the difference between point 1 and point 3 might need to be clarified. If I know my opponent and know he likes to do a certain tactic, me blindly countering it would still be metagaming. It's connected to point 1 in that you know the trends and abuse them, but it's on an interpersonal level.
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On February 03 2012 04:31 itsjustatank wrote:'Metagame' implicitly requires one to act outside of the rule set of a game. I propose that instead of a 'shift in the metagame' or 'metagame shift,' commentators should say 'paradigm shift.' par·a·digm /ˈparəˌdīm/Noun: A typical example or pattern of something; a model. A worldview underlying the theories and methodology of a particular scientific subject.
Example: "The Bisu build represented a paradigm shift in Brood War strategy." or "What player X is doing right now really changes the paradigm of TvP!"Lack of vocabulary is not a long-term excuse to go about making up words or using words incorrectly. + Show Spoiler +On June 11 2010 04:27 Metagame / Chill wrote:Here are some quick rebuttals to anticipated criticism:* Metagaming can also mean the standardized strategy * - No it can't. You are misusing the word. * Metagaming has multiple meanings * - No it doesn't. The meaning is broad to cover innumerable situations, but they are all captured under the single definition. Understanding the real definition to metagame and metagaming, please understand why the following sentences are misusing the word:Show nested quote +Even straight Protoss or Terran players might have noticed that theres something slightly wrong with the Zerg design or metagame. Show nested quote +Oov was, until now, the player with greatest win percentage ever. And his active manipulations of the metagame brought an entirely new dynamic to Starcraft. Show nested quote +I'd say technically, smash is way way more difficult. The physical skills required, the metagame, is ridiculous for melee. Show nested quote +I would wait for the metagame to develop more to learn other races, because the main benefit of it is understanding how they play and need to act, which changes with the metagame. Thank you.
I've read the post in your spoiler. I just disagree with it. The word "metagame" was not made up by gamers, but it does have a standard gaming use, which I think is not the one you understand. Nothing about the word requires actions to be outside the game. You can also look at wikipedia for common uses of the word.
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On February 03 2012 04:32 Linwelin wrote:
I think the Bisu build metagamed a lot of players in BW
Yeah, back when Bisu was a bonjwa.
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Hong Kong9164 Posts
On February 03 2012 05:41 pandaburn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 04:31 itsjustatank wrote:'Metagame' implicitly requires one to act outside of the rule set of a game. I propose that instead of a 'shift in the metagame' or 'metagame shift,' commentators should say 'paradigm shift.' par·a·digm /ˈparəˌdīm/Noun: A typical example or pattern of something; a model. A worldview underlying the theories and methodology of a particular scientific subject.
Example: "The Bisu build represented a paradigm shift in Brood War strategy." or "What player X is doing right now really changes the paradigm of TvP!"Lack of vocabulary is not a long-term excuse to go about making up words or using words incorrectly. + Show Spoiler +On June 11 2010 04:27 Metagame / Chill wrote:Here are some quick rebuttals to anticipated criticism:* Metagaming can also mean the standardized strategy * - No it can't. You are misusing the word. * Metagaming has multiple meanings * - No it doesn't. The meaning is broad to cover innumerable situations, but they are all captured under the single definition. Understanding the real definition to metagame and metagaming, please understand why the following sentences are misusing the word:Show nested quote +Even straight Protoss or Terran players might have noticed that theres something slightly wrong with the Zerg design or metagame. Show nested quote +Oov was, until now, the player with greatest win percentage ever. And his active manipulations of the metagame brought an entirely new dynamic to Starcraft. Show nested quote +I'd say technically, smash is way way more difficult. The physical skills required, the metagame, is ridiculous for melee. Show nested quote +I would wait for the metagame to develop more to learn other races, because the main benefit of it is understanding how they play and need to act, which changes with the metagame. Thank you. I've read the post in your spoiler. I just disagree with it. The word "metagame" was not made up by gamers, but it does have a standard gaming use, which I think is not the one you understand. Nothing about the word requires actions to be outside the game. You can also look at wikipedia for common uses of the word.
Read your own proposed definition before you attempt to answer mine:
Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming
If competing interpretations should be the standard for this debate, I'll argue that you don't even present an alternative. My counter-interpretation of the linguistic phenomenon of using paradigm instead of metagame is uniquely better, here are a few reasons:
1. Grammar
a. Paradigm is grammatically correct, and its use in this situation displays a command of the English language that is thus far lacking in current English ESPORTS broadcasts.
2. Education
a. If an untrained viewer currently watches an ESPORTS broadcast and does not understand 'metagame' used incorrectly in our contexts and then looks it up in a dictionary, he or she will become only even more confused than they currently already are. Teaching something that is incorrect and acting as if it is correct necessarily destroys the integrity of ESPORTS as an effective educational tool.
3. Limits and Predictability
a. Figuring out when to actually use 'metagame' will vastly benefit its use in appropriate contexts. As it is right now, the word metagame is greatly devalued.
And even if you win that 'implicitly outside of a rule set' isn't required, I'll win that paradigm is still the best vocabulary word to use. It is prerequisite to all other considerations.
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Yes, I agree with the definition in the opening post and all of your examples. Coming from a background mathematics and statistics, I simply assumed that the word "metagame" was defined in the way you defined it, as this aligns well with the use of the prefix "meta" in statistical analysis. I was surprised to find that some people in this community disagreed with that definition and would even tell me that I was using the term incorrectly when I would use it with that meaning.
To use the definition "outside of the game" does not align with other modern uses of the prefix "meta".
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-analysis: Combining the results from many studies into a single analysis. Similarly, metagame is a description of combining the anlaysis of many games into a single model or anaysis.
2. In general, meta-XXXXX means information about XXXXX. For example meta-memory is information about what is in your memory. And meta-data is information about what is in the data.
3. Meta-game is used to describe information about what is going on in the "game" where the "game" is actually the collection of all games recently played. Using a statistical analysis of these games is one way of describing the "meta-game" although most people rely on their imperfect heuristic interpretation of the likelihoods that can be derived from the games that they have seen or played.
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On February 03 2012 05:47 itsjustatank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 05:41 pandaburn wrote:On February 03 2012 04:31 itsjustatank wrote:'Metagame' implicitly requires one to act outside of the rule set of a game. I propose that instead of a 'shift in the metagame' or 'metagame shift,' commentators should say 'paradigm shift.' par·a·digm /ˈparəˌdīm/Noun: A typical example or pattern of something; a model. A worldview underlying the theories and methodology of a particular scientific subject.
Example: "The Bisu build represented a paradigm shift in Brood War strategy." or "What player X is doing right now really changes the paradigm of TvP!"Lack of vocabulary is not a long-term excuse to go about making up words or using words incorrectly. + Show Spoiler +On June 11 2010 04:27 Metagame / Chill wrote:Here are some quick rebuttals to anticipated criticism:* Metagaming can also mean the standardized strategy * - No it can't. You are misusing the word. * Metagaming has multiple meanings * - No it doesn't. The meaning is broad to cover innumerable situations, but they are all captured under the single definition. Understanding the real definition to metagame and metagaming, please understand why the following sentences are misusing the word:Show nested quote +Even straight Protoss or Terran players might have noticed that theres something slightly wrong with the Zerg design or metagame. Show nested quote +Oov was, until now, the player with greatest win percentage ever. And his active manipulations of the metagame brought an entirely new dynamic to Starcraft. Show nested quote +I'd say technically, smash is way way more difficult. The physical skills required, the metagame, is ridiculous for melee. Show nested quote +I would wait for the metagame to develop more to learn other races, because the main benefit of it is understanding how they play and need to act, which changes with the metagame. Thank you. I've read the post in your spoiler. I just disagree with it. The word "metagame" was not made up by gamers, but it does have a standard gaming use, which I think is not the one you understand. Nothing about the word requires actions to be outside the game. You can also look at wikipedia for common uses of the word. Read your own proposed definition before you attempt to answer mine: Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming
The article on wikipedia you link is complete in agreement with the definition from the OP.
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On February 03 2012 05:56 photomuse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 05:47 itsjustatank wrote:On February 03 2012 05:41 pandaburn wrote:On February 03 2012 04:31 itsjustatank wrote:'Metagame' implicitly requires one to act outside of the rule set of a game. I propose that instead of a 'shift in the metagame' or 'metagame shift,' commentators should say 'paradigm shift.' par·a·digm /ˈparəˌdīm/Noun: A typical example or pattern of something; a model. A worldview underlying the theories and methodology of a particular scientific subject.
Example: "The Bisu build represented a paradigm shift in Brood War strategy." or "What player X is doing right now really changes the paradigm of TvP!"Lack of vocabulary is not a long-term excuse to go about making up words or using words incorrectly. + Show Spoiler +On June 11 2010 04:27 Metagame / Chill wrote:Here are some quick rebuttals to anticipated criticism:* Metagaming can also mean the standardized strategy * - No it can't. You are misusing the word. * Metagaming has multiple meanings * - No it doesn't. The meaning is broad to cover innumerable situations, but they are all captured under the single definition. Understanding the real definition to metagame and metagaming, please understand why the following sentences are misusing the word:Show nested quote +Even straight Protoss or Terran players might have noticed that theres something slightly wrong with the Zerg design or metagame. Show nested quote +Oov was, until now, the player with greatest win percentage ever. And his active manipulations of the metagame brought an entirely new dynamic to Starcraft. Show nested quote +I'd say technically, smash is way way more difficult. The physical skills required, the metagame, is ridiculous for melee. Show nested quote +I would wait for the metagame to develop more to learn other races, because the main benefit of it is understanding how they play and need to act, which changes with the metagame. Thank you. I've read the post in your spoiler. I just disagree with it. The word "metagame" was not made up by gamers, but it does have a standard gaming use, which I think is not the one you understand. Nothing about the word requires actions to be outside the game. You can also look at wikipedia for common uses of the word. Read your own proposed definition before you attempt to answer mine: Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming The article on wikipedia you link is complete in agreement with the definition from the OP.
Yes it is, and if you look within the article you will see some specific uses in MTG that the OP was referring to.
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Hong Kong9164 Posts
On February 03 2012 05:56 photomuse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 05:47 itsjustatank wrote:On February 03 2012 05:41 pandaburn wrote:On February 03 2012 04:31 itsjustatank wrote:'Metagame' implicitly requires one to act outside of the rule set of a game. I propose that instead of a 'shift in the metagame' or 'metagame shift,' commentators should say 'paradigm shift.' par·a·digm /ˈparəˌdīm/Noun: A typical example or pattern of something; a model. A worldview underlying the theories and methodology of a particular scientific subject.
Example: "The Bisu build represented a paradigm shift in Brood War strategy." or "What player X is doing right now really changes the paradigm of TvP!"Lack of vocabulary is not a long-term excuse to go about making up words or using words incorrectly. + Show Spoiler +On June 11 2010 04:27 Metagame / Chill wrote:Here are some quick rebuttals to anticipated criticism:* Metagaming can also mean the standardized strategy * - No it can't. You are misusing the word. * Metagaming has multiple meanings * - No it doesn't. The meaning is broad to cover innumerable situations, but they are all captured under the single definition. Understanding the real definition to metagame and metagaming, please understand why the following sentences are misusing the word:Show nested quote +Even straight Protoss or Terran players might have noticed that theres something slightly wrong with the Zerg design or metagame. Show nested quote +Oov was, until now, the player with greatest win percentage ever. And his active manipulations of the metagame brought an entirely new dynamic to Starcraft. Show nested quote +I'd say technically, smash is way way more difficult. The physical skills required, the metagame, is ridiculous for melee. Show nested quote +I would wait for the metagame to develop more to learn other races, because the main benefit of it is understanding how they play and need to act, which changes with the metagame. Thank you. I've read the post in your spoiler. I just disagree with it. The word "metagame" was not made up by gamers, but it does have a standard gaming use, which I think is not the one you understand. Nothing about the word requires actions to be outside the game. You can also look at wikipedia for common uses of the word. Read your own proposed definition before you attempt to answer mine: Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming The article on wikipedia you link is complete in agreement with the definition from the OP.
On February 03 2012 05:58 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 05:56 photomuse wrote:On February 03 2012 05:47 itsjustatank wrote:On February 03 2012 05:41 pandaburn wrote:On February 03 2012 04:31 itsjustatank wrote:'Metagame' implicitly requires one to act outside of the rule set of a game. I propose that instead of a 'shift in the metagame' or 'metagame shift,' commentators should say 'paradigm shift.' par·a·digm /ˈparəˌdīm/Noun: A typical example or pattern of something; a model. A worldview underlying the theories and methodology of a particular scientific subject.
Example: "The Bisu build represented a paradigm shift in Brood War strategy." or "What player X is doing right now really changes the paradigm of TvP!"Lack of vocabulary is not a long-term excuse to go about making up words or using words incorrectly. + Show Spoiler +On June 11 2010 04:27 Metagame / Chill wrote:Here are some quick rebuttals to anticipated criticism:* Metagaming can also mean the standardized strategy * - No it can't. You are misusing the word. * Metagaming has multiple meanings * - No it doesn't. The meaning is broad to cover innumerable situations, but they are all captured under the single definition. Understanding the real definition to metagame and metagaming, please understand why the following sentences are misusing the word:Show nested quote +Even straight Protoss or Terran players might have noticed that theres something slightly wrong with the Zerg design or metagame. Show nested quote +Oov was, until now, the player with greatest win percentage ever. And his active manipulations of the metagame brought an entirely new dynamic to Starcraft. Show nested quote +I'd say technically, smash is way way more difficult. The physical skills required, the metagame, is ridiculous for melee. Show nested quote +I would wait for the metagame to develop more to learn other races, because the main benefit of it is understanding how they play and need to act, which changes with the metagame. Thank you. I've read the post in your spoiler. I just disagree with it. The word "metagame" was not made up by gamers, but it does have a standard gaming use, which I think is not the one you understand. Nothing about the word requires actions to be outside the game. You can also look at wikipedia for common uses of the word. Read your own proposed definition before you attempt to answer mine: Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming The article on wikipedia you link is complete in agreement with the definition from the OP. Yes it is, and if you look within the article you will see some specific uses in MTG that the OP was referring to.
That is beside the point. The argument is between the use of paradigm and the use of metagame. I argue that paradigm is more appropriate. At this point, it doesn't even matter as much what some community defines metagame to be because the definition for paradigm encompasses that extended and incorrect usage.
And mass incorrect usage of a word or phrase doesn't suddenly make it correct.
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On February 03 2012 04:14 iamke55 wrote:
Yeah it's really annoying when people use "metagame" when they mean to say "mindgame". No, you didn't metagame your opponent no matter how smart you think you sound when you say that. You predicted him. Or mindgamed him.
I blame this mainly on terrible casters who also thinks every attack before max is a "timing attack" or an "all-in."
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I still don't fucking understand how to use this correctly TBH, but I would like to know. Can someone give the real answer instead of all this speculation bullshit. Examples and citations would help me understand this a lot, also a guide for dummies cause after hearing every now and then the past 2 years that metagame is commonly misused I haven't figured it out yet what the definition is and how to use it properly in SC2 point of view.
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Hong Kong9164 Posts
It might be situationally ironic yes, but it doesn't make it any less correct unless you want to defend the English language not having any stable meaning or grammar any more.
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EPT
