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On February 03 2012 06:09 itsjustatank wrote:It might be situationally ironic yes, but it doesn't make it any less correct. Unless you want to defend the English language not having any stable meaning or grammar any more.
The whole nonsense about using metagame as a verb comes from the argument that "authority figures", such as the wikipedia page or a dictionary, are the only way to determine what a word means even if they blatantly contradict how people actually use the word. But the wikipedia page for paradigm shift should make it very clear why it makes no sense to use it ni place of metagame shift.
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Calgary25990 Posts
99% of the discussion: Metagame doesn't mean "the current state of strategy". You hear LoL players talking about "new meta" or "current meta". That's the wrong usage. That's just "current strategies", not "metagame".
Don't worry about the other 1%.
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Hong Kong9164 Posts
On February 03 2012 06:14 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 06:09 itsjustatank wrote:It might be situationally ironic yes, but it doesn't make it any less correct. Unless you want to defend the English language not having any stable meaning or grammar any more. The whole nonsense about using metagame as a verb comes from the argument that "authority figures", such as the wikipedia page or a dictionary, are the only way to determine what a word means even if they blatantly contradict how people actually use the word. But the wikipedia page for paradigm shift should make it very clear why it makes no sense to use it ni place of metagame shift.
And yet there are unique benefits to using 'paradigm' instead:
On February 03 2012 04:31 itsjustatank wrote:
1. Grammar
a. Paradigm is grammatically correct, and its use in this situation displays a command of the English language that is thus far lacking in current English ESPORTS broadcasts.
2. Education
a. If an untrained viewer currently watches an ESPORTS broadcast and does not understand 'metagame' used incorrectly in our contexts and then looks it up in a dictionary, he or she will become only even more confused than they currently already are. Teaching something that is incorrect and acting as if it is correct necessarily destroys the integrity of ESPORTS as an effective educational tool.
3. Limits and Predictability
a. Figuring out when to actually use 'metagame' will vastly benefit its use in appropriate contexts. As it is right now, the word metagame is greatly devalued.
What net benefit does adopting the anarchic view that there should be no 'authority figures' give us?
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On February 03 2012 06:07 deadmau wrote:
I still don't fucking understand how to use this correctly TBH, but I would like to know. Can someone give the real answer instead of all this speculation bullshit. Examples and citations would help me understand this a lot, also a guide for dummies cause after hearing every now and then the past 2 years that metagame is commonly misused I haven't figured it out yet what the definition is and how to use it properly in SC2 point of view.
Think of it as trends. If you use knowledge outside of the actual knowledge in-game (such as how much dps a marine does, how much a greater spire costs, the time it takes to morph a Planetary fortress), but knowledge based on how the game is played, you're using the meta game.
It doesn't say ingame that terrans will use hellions early, but zergs know the metagame and early hellions are extremely common, so zergs almost always build an early spine or two at their natural. This is metagaming. Going hatch first against terran, however, isn't. It's part of the metagame to do it (it's a trend people can count on) but zergs do it because there's no viable aggression from terran which can stop it, you don't need to know how people are playing the game to know that it's safe to hatch first.
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On February 03 2012 06:22 itsjustatank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 06:14 iamke55 wrote:On February 03 2012 06:09 itsjustatank wrote:It might be situationally ironic yes, but it doesn't make it any less correct. Unless you want to defend the English language not having any stable meaning or grammar any more. The whole nonsense about using metagame as a verb comes from the argument that "authority figures", such as the wikipedia page or a dictionary, are the only way to determine what a word means even if they blatantly contradict how people actually use the word. But the wikipedia page for paradigm shift should make it very clear why it makes no sense to use it ni place of metagame shift. And yet there are unique benefits to using 'paradigm' instead: Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 04:31 itsjustatank wrote:
1. Grammar
a. Paradigm is grammatically correct, and its use in this situation displays a command of the English language that is thus far lacking in current English ESPORTS broadcasts.
2. Education
a. If an untrained viewer currently watches an ESPORTS broadcast and does not understand 'metagame' used incorrectly in our contexts and then looks it up in a dictionary, he or she will become only even more confused than they currently already are. Teaching something that is incorrect and acting as if it is correct necessarily destroys the integrity of ESPORTS as an effective educational tool.
3. Limits and Predictability
a. Figuring out when to actually use 'metagame' will vastly benefit its use in appropriate contexts. As it is right now, the word metagame is greatly devalued.
What net benefit does adopting the anarchic view that there should be no 'authority figures' give us?
How is it correct to use paradigm? Starcraft is not a science. Note that this necessarily isn't what I think. I'm just pointing out the exact logic that makes you think we're using metagame wrong also rules out using paradigm in place of it.
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Hong Kong9164 Posts
On February 03 2012 06:27 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 06:22 itsjustatank wrote:On February 03 2012 06:14 iamke55 wrote:On February 03 2012 06:09 itsjustatank wrote:It might be situationally ironic yes, but it doesn't make it any less correct. Unless you want to defend the English language not having any stable meaning or grammar any more. The whole nonsense about using metagame as a verb comes from the argument that "authority figures", such as the wikipedia page or a dictionary, are the only way to determine what a word means even if they blatantly contradict how people actually use the word. But the wikipedia page for paradigm shift should make it very clear why it makes no sense to use it ni place of metagame shift. And yet there are unique benefits to using 'paradigm' instead: On February 03 2012 04:31 itsjustatank wrote:
1. Grammar
a. Paradigm is grammatically correct, and its use in this situation displays a command of the English language that is thus far lacking in current English ESPORTS broadcasts.
2. Education
a. If an untrained viewer currently watches an ESPORTS broadcast and does not understand 'metagame' used incorrectly in our contexts and then looks it up in a dictionary, he or she will become only even more confused than they currently already are. Teaching something that is incorrect and acting as if it is correct necessarily destroys the integrity of ESPORTS as an effective educational tool.
3. Limits and Predictability
a. Figuring out when to actually use 'metagame' will vastly benefit its use in appropriate contexts. As it is right now, the word metagame is greatly devalued.
What net benefit does adopting the anarchic view that there should be no 'authority figures' give us? How is it correct to use paradigm? Starcraft is not a science. Note that this necessarily isn't what I think. I'm just pointing out the exact logic that makes you think we're using metagame wrong also rules out using paradigm in place of it.
We are getting hung up on the scientific and philosophical use of 'paradigm shift.' Current Starcraft strategy as is popularly played and expected to be played is the 'paradigm' of play.
On February 03 2012 04:31 itsjustatank wrote:
par·a·digm /'par??dim/
Noun:
A typical example or pattern of something; a model.
A worldview underlying the theories and methodology of a particular scientific subject.
Changes, radical or not, in the strategies used within the game are a shift in the paradigm of the game. Thus, paradigm shift.
Our community is misusing words and language simply because they don't know any better. There is no radical movement against any authority figures or the dictionary.
On February 03 2012 06:19 Chill wrote:
99% of the discussion: Metagame doesn't mean "the current state of strategy". You hear LoL players talking about "new meta" or "current meta". That's the wrong usage. That's just "current strategies", not "metagame".
Don't worry about the other 1%.
Absolutely correct. 'Paradigm shift' can easily be reduced to 'a shift in the current state of strategy.' Using 'paradigm,' though, can satisfy the community's need to have some sort of austere word to use instead of that simple idea while remaining correct in usage, in my opinion.
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On February 03 2012 06:35 itsjustatank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 06:27 iamke55 wrote:On February 03 2012 06:22 itsjustatank wrote:On February 03 2012 06:14 iamke55 wrote:On February 03 2012 06:09 itsjustatank wrote:It might be situationally ironic yes, but it doesn't make it any less correct. Unless you want to defend the English language not having any stable meaning or grammar any more. The whole nonsense about using metagame as a verb comes from the argument that "authority figures", such as the wikipedia page or a dictionary, are the only way to determine what a word means even if they blatantly contradict how people actually use the word. But the wikipedia page for paradigm shift should make it very clear why it makes no sense to use it ni place of metagame shift. And yet there are unique benefits to using 'paradigm' instead: On February 03 2012 04:31 itsjustatank wrote:
1. Grammar
a. Paradigm is grammatically correct, and its use in this situation displays a command of the English language that is thus far lacking in current English ESPORTS broadcasts.
2. Education
a. If an untrained viewer currently watches an ESPORTS broadcast and does not understand 'metagame' used incorrectly in our contexts and then looks it up in a dictionary, he or she will become only even more confused than they currently already are. Teaching something that is incorrect and acting as if it is correct necessarily destroys the integrity of ESPORTS as an effective educational tool.
3. Limits and Predictability
a. Figuring out when to actually use 'metagame' will vastly benefit its use in appropriate contexts. As it is right now, the word metagame is greatly devalued.
What net benefit does adopting the anarchic view that there should be no 'authority figures' give us? How is it correct to use paradigm? Starcraft is not a science. Note that this necessarily isn't what I think. I'm just pointing out the exact logic that makes you think we're using metagame wrong also rules out using paradigm in place of it. We are getting hung up on the scientific and philosophical use of 'paradigm shift.' Current Starcraft strategy as is popularly played and expected to be played is the 'paradigm' of play. Changes, radical or not, in the strategies used within the game are a shift in the paradigm of the game. Thus, paradigm shift. Our community is misusing words and language simply because they don't know any better. There is no radical movement against any authority figures or the dictionary.
I'm not talking about any radical movement. I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy in saying "paradigm shift". Your side of the argument about how to use the word metagame claims that the correct meaning of a word is determined solely by dictionaries/wikipedia. By the same logic, any usage of "paradigm shift" that doesn't relate to science is wrong because the wikipedia page gives that as the correct usage of the word. If you want paradigm shifts to apply to Starcraft, you would have to abandon the notion that wikipedia/dictionary definitions are the only way to determine how to use a word.
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On February 03 2012 03:56 sabas123 wrote:doesn't the word meta mean thinking ahead??  nice write up btw^^
From Dictionary.com
meta-
1.
a prefix appearing in loanwords from Greek, with the meanings “after,” “along with,” “beyond,” “among,” “behind,” and productive in English
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Hong Kong9164 Posts
On February 03 2012 06:50 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 06:35 itsjustatank wrote:On February 03 2012 06:27 iamke55 wrote:On February 03 2012 06:22 itsjustatank wrote:On February 03 2012 06:14 iamke55 wrote:On February 03 2012 06:09 itsjustatank wrote:It might be situationally ironic yes, but it doesn't make it any less correct. Unless you want to defend the English language not having any stable meaning or grammar any more. The whole nonsense about using metagame as a verb comes from the argument that "authority figures", such as the wikipedia page or a dictionary, are the only way to determine what a word means even if they blatantly contradict how people actually use the word. But the wikipedia page for paradigm shift should make it very clear why it makes no sense to use it ni place of metagame shift. And yet there are unique benefits to using 'paradigm' instead: On February 03 2012 04:31 itsjustatank wrote:
1. Grammar
a. Paradigm is grammatically correct, and its use in this situation displays a command of the English language that is thus far lacking in current English ESPORTS broadcasts.
2. Education
a. If an untrained viewer currently watches an ESPORTS broadcast and does not understand 'metagame' used incorrectly in our contexts and then looks it up in a dictionary, he or she will become only even more confused than they currently already are. Teaching something that is incorrect and acting as if it is correct necessarily destroys the integrity of ESPORTS as an effective educational tool.
3. Limits and Predictability
a. Figuring out when to actually use 'metagame' will vastly benefit its use in appropriate contexts. As it is right now, the word metagame is greatly devalued.
What net benefit does adopting the anarchic view that there should be no 'authority figures' give us? How is it correct to use paradigm? Starcraft is not a science. Note that this necessarily isn't what I think. I'm just pointing out the exact logic that makes you think we're using metagame wrong also rules out using paradigm in place of it. We are getting hung up on the scientific and philosophical use of 'paradigm shift.' Current Starcraft strategy as is popularly played and expected to be played is the 'paradigm' of play. Changes, radical or not, in the strategies used within the game are a shift in the paradigm of the game. Thus, paradigm shift. Our community is misusing words and language simply because they don't know any better. There is no radical movement against any authority figures or the dictionary. I'm not talking about any radical movement. I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy in saying "paradigm shift". Your side of the argument about how to use the word metagame claims that the correct meaning of a word is determined solely by dictionaries/wikipedia. By the same logic, any usage of "paradigm shift" that doesn't relate to science is wrong because the wikipedia page gives that as the correct usage of the word. If you want paradigm shifts to apply to Starcraft, you would have to abandon the notion that wikipedia/dictionary definitions are the only way to determine how to use a word.
I don't see any hypocrisy in what I am advocating. Wikipedia and current dictionaries have been formed over time by learned and unlearned peoples, establishing a standard by which the English language is used. Perhaps in fifty years, metagaming will mean what you want it to mean, but for now it simply doesn't. Our argument is part of the dialectic struggle in determining whether or not it does. My previous posts on the matter describe why my position is potentially uniquely better than continuing to misuse metagame; and there has been little to no clash on the merits of those standards. Advocates of metagame have also failed to articulate any net benefits, other than remaining steadfast to the status quo, to continuing the use of that word.
If we want to be educational about what we are doing in our community to people who are not familiar with our jargon and specialized made-up words, conforming closely to how English is actually defined and used and taught in schools is best.
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Calgary25990 Posts
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On February 03 2012 03:54 pandaburn wrote:I've seen lots of people get cranky over proper use of this term on TL. I want get a general sense of why this is and how I can avoid ticking people off. I'm not sure why this is such a sticky issue, but let me lay out why I'm confused just in case. The first competitive gaming community I was active in was Magic: The Gathering. In this community, the standard, accepted use of the word "metagame" was, essentially, the probabilistic distribution of strategies you expect to face when sitting down across from a random opponent. This makes sense to me, as these are the factors that one has to consider when choosing a deck to play, or a decision to make in a game, that have nothing to do with the actual rules. However here on TL, I've seen the word almost always used as a verb. What's more, sometime people get warned for using the word in a manner similar to what I was used to from my previous environment. Please help me out by sharing your thoughts on whether "metagame" applies to the following scenarios: 1: You are playing on a map where Nexus First is a commonly used build for protoss, and so decide to proxy gate/rax or 6pool. You claim this is a "metagame choice". 2: You say "there is a lot of hellion use in the current KR metagame." 3: You remind your opponent that the last time you played, you mopped the floor with his noob self. As this statement is outside the rules of Starcraft 2 as a game, but is intended to give you an advantage, it is "metagaming". Inside, find how I would answer these questions from my experience as a Magic player. + Show Spoiler +
1. Yes. This is a metagame choice, or "metagaming" if you prefer.
2. Yes, this is a proper use of the word metagame.
3. No, this is not a proper use of the word metagame. These are psychological tactics which, rather than being a level above understanding game mechanics, are completely unrelated.
If you disagree with my definitions, please realize that there are gaming communities where they are the common use. The starcraft community did not invent the term "metagame", so if you feel the need to correct them to the standard local usage, please do so politely.
Even though it may not be invented by SC community, the term must have some concrete definition in order to be a functional and meaningful word.
Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.
In simple terms, it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions.
Having this in mind, the phrase "the current KR metagame" does not actually denote something. It is nonsensical and breaks the rules of communication via misuse of a term. Lots of people just say 'metagame' to feel that they're saying something sophisticated. In almost all of such cases, it is used as a synonym for strategy.
Thus you are incorrect about both example 2 and 3. # 2 is not a correct use of the term, while # 3 is a correct use.
+ Show Spoiler +The variation of the prefix 'meta' applied to the word metagame is as follows: "about" but not "on" (exactly its own category). For example, in linguistics a grammar is considered as being expressed in a metalanguage, or a sort of language for describing another language (and not itself).
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On February 03 2012 04:16 Steveling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 04:12 skeldark wrote:
meta means outside.
Metagame can be translated as:
the game outside of the game.
everthing that have impact on the game but is not "real" part of the game. Meta doesn't mean outside. You might wanna check a greek vocabulary or two before stating facts. As someone before stated, it means beyond/after. Inb4 Chill.
meta doesnt mean outside. it doesnt mean beyond/after.
But this words help to understand what it means.
In the word metagame it means:
the game outside of the game.
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When people say, "Metagaming" - I must admit, I do die inside a bit.
My definition of the metagame would be = the current accepted, standard strategies used by the top, top, top level players.
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It's been used in Magic: The Gathering for ages. It should be the % of chances of facing each build in a MU.
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On February 03 2012 04:14 iamke55 wrote:
Yeah it's really annoying when people use "metagame" when they mean to say "mindgame". No, you didn't metagame your opponent no matter how smart you think you sound when you say that. You predicted him. Or mindgamed him.
I really enjoy Destiny's stream, but the way he uses the word metagame is nearly always entirely wrong. In almost any other game, the metagame refers to a trend of popular, effective strategies. If a new strategy is found that is good for ie. a character to use in a fighting game, or even an innovative opening in SC2, it will often become a part of the current metagame. This lasts until there is a response from the opposition. The reason why I dislike when someone says they are "metagaming" someone, is because more often than not, they are actually mindgaming them with a strategy that is not the current status quo, but rather something to throw them off balance, in other words, a mindgame.
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On February 03 2012 07:34 Jedclark wrote:
When people say, "Metagaming" - I must admit, I do die inside a bit.
My definition of the metagame would be = the current accepted, standard strategies used by the top, top, top level players.
"Your" definition is irrelevant. You're using the word wrongly.
My definition of the word "banana" might be a verb meaning "to jump". It makes no difference to the actual definition and correct usage of "banana" that I am confused about the meaning...
On February 03 2012 07:36 Salteador Neo wrote:
It's been used in Magic: The Gathering for ages. It should be the % of chances of facing each build in a MU.
While common 'misuse' over time can eventually change the 'proper' definition of words, the Magic: The Gathering community and length of misuse is hardly sufficient to change the general meaning to something so different from the original definition of the root word and its prefix.
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Metagame is the strategical state of the game in a certain moment. Conceptually, it is one layer above the strategy.
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Hong Kong9164 Posts
On February 03 2012 07:53 RedFury wrote:
Metagame is the strategical state of the game in a certain moment. Conceptually, it is one layer above the strategy.
Read the thread please.
On February 03 2012 06:19 Chill wrote:
99% of the discussion: Metagame doesn't mean "the current state of strategy". You hear LoL players talking about "new meta" or "current meta". That's the wrong usage. That's just "current strategies", not "metagame".
Don't worry about the other 1%.
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This discussion is pretty pointless, tbh.
First, there are people trying to control language, particularly English, which is dumb. People have tried to do it for centuries, and it doesn't work. Only in places like France, where the government controls the language, and it isn't spoken all that widely outside of the country anymore (yes, I know they speak in in parts of Canada and other places) does something like "controlling language" even begin to work.
Second, people generally understand what is meant when casters/players say "metagame" within the context of the game. While it might not be the "correct" usage of the term in the strictest sense, there is a relatively well understood meaning affixed to the word. Sure, there is confusion on some level, or this thread and others like it wouldn't exist, but most people have an idea of that the person is referring to. Saying something like "no that's not what metagame means, you need to say current strategies of the game every time in order to get that idea across, because metagame doesn't really mean what everyone is understanding it to mean" makes you sound like an idiot. It is a faster way of getting an idea across, so people will use it. Regardless of the outcome of this thread, you will still hear metagame used over and over again, and most people will understand what it means, and others won't. That is language. Deal with it.
Finally, its all about context. My GF was listening to a SC2 cast last night, and she said it sounded like japanese to her. While the casters were speaking english, the cast was so jargon heavy and context sensitive, it didn't make sense to someone who didn't understand that context. The same thing applies here. Most people have a prescribed understanding of the term "metagame" when in the context of starcraft or starcraft 2.
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EPT
