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On January 25 2012 20:59 Ewic wrote:
@ dapierow & NightOfTheDead - I'm echoing what the OP is saying - tournaments are being won by the same people over and over again and there is little room for up-and-coming players to be noticed or win anything. I think you would understand when you devote as much time into this game I have and haven't received $1 for it.
You're another perfect example of where this system fails.
For you guys that don't know Ewic, he is a GM player on NA. He is one of VP's best players. He is a beast. But no one knows who he is because there is nowhere he can go to get noticed.
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On January 26 2012 01:59 PET wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 01:57 karpo wrote:On January 26 2012 01:53 PET wrote:
I know what the OP of this Thread means.
I'm also sick of Invite Tournaments. Yea sometimes they bring more viewers when you have Koreans, ok, but sometimes they are to much.
This is why in the League I recently organized I held 19 Qualifiers for several countries in the Europe.
I had a Hungarian qualifier where I saw some really talented players like Purple, StuntR & Breach. StuntR managed to qualify.
I had a Czech qualifier where Thebis managed to qualify even that players like DeViL, Harpner, & nukestrike.
I had a Polish qualifier where I got Indy & Forte.
I had French qualifiers where I saw Eeel and SonG. SonG actually managed to beat Laukyo and MoMaN and NeOAnGeL.
I had a Bulgarian qualifier where we had Insignia.
I had 2 Italian qualifiers where I got StarEagle and ZyM a 16 years old player.
etc
There are shitload of talented players out there, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and nobody will ever give a fuck.
This is why you always see 80% Koreans. This is why you always see Invite players.
Don't blame this on the tournament organizers.
I tried and man it sucked. While I think some players apreciated what I tried to do, I know that Hungarians got inspired and they started their own Hungarian League, this is not going to work because the mentality of the VIEWERS can not change. And no, this didn't sucked because the players I had. I had some really awesome players. It sucked because no one was interested.
Popular players are always going to get the attention. Popular players are not always the good players. There are plenty of examples which I'm not going to give ... because if you say something critical about someone popular you get the "community" on your head.
I'm sorry but, at least to me, it's not about popularity. It's about who's the best. I'm pretty sure none of the guys you mention hold up against the best foreigners and they surely won't hold up against code A/S koreans. It's like saying that people enjoy the premier league because the teams are popular. Sure it's that too but surely you recognize the fact that people want to watch the highest level of play? You are missing the point. The point was that the EU/NA players are not motivated because they don't have something to fight for. And even if they sometimes to, you always get a Korean. While for some people will work, for some people will not be fair. There are other events besides NASL, MLG, etc where you do expect the best of the best, but in the meantime you have nothing.
Seriously, name korean invites who hasn't earned their place. You're saying some no name player who has just started working deserves more attention than a korean who has been in the scene and has been competing forever? Ok, we might as well blame players like Huk and Idra who are not only better, but also get free rides to these tournaments. No one invites obscure korean no name B teamers. B teamers have to work through qualifiers just like everyone else, and hey guess what, they fucking win cause they're better and have been working harder for longer. You're blaming the current talent for the woes of the up and comers, and it really should have nothing to do with whether they're korean or not.
Stop acting like we can support everyone. If you're not good, you don't deserve it period. There's not much money in the scene. Hell, koreans don't even make salaries, they have to live off of prize winnings as well. Even A teamers aren't well off if they can't manage to place deep.
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On January 26 2012 02:03 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 01:59 PET wrote:On January 26 2012 01:57 karpo wrote:On January 26 2012 01:53 PET wrote:
I know what the OP of this Thread means.
I'm also sick of Invite Tournaments. Yea sometimes they bring more viewers when you have Koreans, ok, but sometimes they are to much.
This is why in the League I recently organized I held 19 Qualifiers for several countries in the Europe.
I had a Hungarian qualifier where I saw some really talented players like Purple, StuntR & Breach. StuntR managed to qualify.
I had a Czech qualifier where Thebis managed to qualify even that players like DeViL, Harpner, & nukestrike.
I had a Polish qualifier where I got Indy & Forte.
I had French qualifiers where I saw Eeel and SonG. SonG actually managed to beat Laukyo and MoMaN and NeOAnGeL.
I had a Bulgarian qualifier where we had Insignia.
I had 2 Italian qualifiers where I got StarEagle and ZyM a 16 years old player.
etc
There are shitload of talented players out there, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and nobody will ever give a fuck.
This is why you always see 80% Koreans. This is why you always see Invite players.
Don't blame this on the tournament organizers.
I tried and man it sucked. While I think some players apreciated what I tried to do, I know that Hungarians got inspired and they started their own Hungarian League, this is not going to work because the mentality of the VIEWERS can not change. And no, this didn't sucked because the players I had. I had some really awesome players. It sucked because no one was interested.
Popular players are always going to get the attention. Popular players are not always the good players. There are plenty of examples which I'm not going to give ... because if you say something critical about someone popular you get the "community" on your head.
I'm sorry but, at least to me, it's not about popularity. It's about who's the best. I'm pretty sure none of the guys you mention hold up against the best foreigners and they surely won't hold up against code A/S koreans. It's like saying that people enjoy the premier league because the teams are popular. Sure it's that too but surely you recognize the fact that people want to watch the highest level of play? You are missing the point. The point was that the EU/NA players are not motivated because they don't have something to fight for. And even if they sometimes to, you always get a Korean. While for some people will work, for some people will not be fair. There are other events besides NASL, MLG, etc where you do expect the best of the best, but in the meantime you have nothing. Seriously, name korean invites who hasn't earned their place. You're saying some no name player who has just started working deserves more attention than a korean who has been in the scene and has been competing forever? Ok, we might as well blame players like Huk and Idra who are not only better, but also get free rides to these tournaments. No one invites obscure korean no name B teamers. B teamers have to work through qualifiers just like everyone else, and hey guess what, they fucking win cause they're better and have been working harder for longer. You're blaming the current talent for the woes of the up and comers, and it really should have nothing to do with whether they're korean or not.
You are the classic viewer I am talking about. This has NOTHING to do with HuK or Koreans in general. It has to do with the declining of Pro-Players in Europe and NA. As I have said before. The SC2 Pro Scene is much bigger than MLG, NASL HuK and IdrA.
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On January 26 2012 01:59 PET wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 01:57 karpo wrote:On January 26 2012 01:53 PET wrote:
I know what the OP of this Thread means.
I'm also sick of Invite Tournaments. Yea sometimes they bring more viewers when you have Koreans, ok, but sometimes they are to much.
This is why in the League I recently organized I held 19 Qualifiers for several countries in the Europe.
I had a Hungarian qualifier where I saw some really talented players like Purple, StuntR & Breach. StuntR managed to qualify.
I had a Czech qualifier where Thebis managed to qualify even that players like DeViL, Harpner, & nukestrike.
I had a Polish qualifier where I got Indy & Forte.
I had French qualifiers where I saw Eeel and SonG. SonG actually managed to beat Laukyo and MoMaN and NeOAnGeL.
I had a Bulgarian qualifier where we had Insignia.
I had 2 Italian qualifiers where I got StarEagle and ZyM a 16 years old player.
etc
There are shitload of talented players out there, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and nobody will ever give a fuck.
This is why you always see 80% Koreans. This is why you always see Invite players.
Don't blame this on the tournament organizers.
I tried and man it sucked. While I think some players apreciated what I tried to do, I know that Hungarians got inspired and they started their own Hungarian League, this is not going to work because the mentality of the VIEWERS can not change. And no, this didn't sucked because the players I had. I had some really awesome players. It sucked because no one was interested.
Popular players are always going to get the attention. Popular players are not always the good players. There are plenty of examples which I'm not going to give ... because if you say something critical about someone popular you get the "community" on your head.
I'm sorry but, at least to me, it's not about popularity. It's about who's the best. I'm pretty sure none of the guys you mention hold up against the best foreigners and they surely won't hold up against code A/S koreans. It's like saying that people enjoy the premier league because the teams are popular. Sure it's that too but surely you recognize the fact that people want to watch the highest level of play? You are missing the point. The point was that the EU/NA players are not motivated because they don't have something to fight for. And even if they sometimes to, you always get a Korean. While for some people will work, for some people will not be fair. There are other events besides NASL, MLG, etc where you do expect the best of the best, but in the meantime you have nothing. Not every player out there is supported by a big team. Not every player out there has a good motivation. YOu have a motivation until some point, but then you are losing it.
Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is not that small. Problem is that viewers always chose to see the 5% of what is out there, and we chose to NOT support the rest.
There's an abundance of SC2 and it's really not suprising that people watch the stuff with the best players. I'm sorry but why would i watch your tournament when i have a shitload of GSL, KSL, NASL, MLG, DH, HSC, and other vods available? There's just such an abundance of content and not enough of a fanbase to sustain lots of local small tournaments yet.
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On January 26 2012 02:05 PET wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 02:03 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 26 2012 01:59 PET wrote:On January 26 2012 01:57 karpo wrote:On January 26 2012 01:53 PET wrote:
I know what the OP of this Thread means.
I'm also sick of Invite Tournaments. Yea sometimes they bring more viewers when you have Koreans, ok, but sometimes they are to much.
This is why in the League I recently organized I held 19 Qualifiers for several countries in the Europe.
I had a Hungarian qualifier where I saw some really talented players like Purple, StuntR & Breach. StuntR managed to qualify.
I had a Czech qualifier where Thebis managed to qualify even that players like DeViL, Harpner, & nukestrike.
I had a Polish qualifier where I got Indy & Forte.
I had French qualifiers where I saw Eeel and SonG. SonG actually managed to beat Laukyo and MoMaN and NeOAnGeL.
I had a Bulgarian qualifier where we had Insignia.
I had 2 Italian qualifiers where I got StarEagle and ZyM a 16 years old player.
etc
There are shitload of talented players out there, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and nobody will ever give a fuck.
This is why you always see 80% Koreans. This is why you always see Invite players.
Don't blame this on the tournament organizers.
I tried and man it sucked. While I think some players apreciated what I tried to do, I know that Hungarians got inspired and they started their own Hungarian League, this is not going to work because the mentality of the VIEWERS can not change. And no, this didn't sucked because the players I had. I had some really awesome players. It sucked because no one was interested.
Popular players are always going to get the attention. Popular players are not always the good players. There are plenty of examples which I'm not going to give ... because if you say something critical about someone popular you get the "community" on your head.
I'm sorry but, at least to me, it's not about popularity. It's about who's the best. I'm pretty sure none of the guys you mention hold up against the best foreigners and they surely won't hold up against code A/S koreans. It's like saying that people enjoy the premier league because the teams are popular. Sure it's that too but surely you recognize the fact that people want to watch the highest level of play? You are missing the point. The point was that the EU/NA players are not motivated because they don't have something to fight for. And even if they sometimes to, you always get a Korean. While for some people will work, for some people will not be fair. There are other events besides NASL, MLG, etc where you do expect the best of the best, but in the meantime you have nothing. Seriously, name korean invites who hasn't earned their place. You're saying some no name player who has just started working deserves more attention than a korean who has been in the scene and has been competing forever? Ok, we might as well blame players like Huk and Idra who are not only better, but also get free rides to these tournaments. No one invites obscure korean no name B teamers. B teamers have to work through qualifiers just like everyone else, and hey guess what, they fucking win cause they're better and have been working harder for longer. You're blaming the current talent for the woes of the up and comers, and it really should have nothing to do with whether they're korean or not. You are the classic viewer I am talking about. This has NOTHING to do with HuK or Koreans in general. It has to do with the declining of Pro-Players in Europe and NA.
Yes, because I have infinity hours and money on my hands that I can support some guy who has probably played the game for about a year for 4 hours a day and who still can't manage to prevent himself from a moving his shit after he turtles for 20 minutes.
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On January 26 2012 02:05 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 01:59 PET wrote:On January 26 2012 01:57 karpo wrote:On January 26 2012 01:53 PET wrote:
I know what the OP of this Thread means.
I'm also sick of Invite Tournaments. Yea sometimes they bring more viewers when you have Koreans, ok, but sometimes they are to much.
This is why in the League I recently organized I held 19 Qualifiers for several countries in the Europe.
I had a Hungarian qualifier where I saw some really talented players like Purple, StuntR & Breach. StuntR managed to qualify.
I had a Czech qualifier where Thebis managed to qualify even that players like DeViL, Harpner, & nukestrike.
I had a Polish qualifier where I got Indy & Forte.
I had French qualifiers where I saw Eeel and SonG. SonG actually managed to beat Laukyo and MoMaN and NeOAnGeL.
I had a Bulgarian qualifier where we had Insignia.
I had 2 Italian qualifiers where I got StarEagle and ZyM a 16 years old player.
etc
There are shitload of talented players out there, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and nobody will ever give a fuck.
This is why you always see 80% Koreans. This is why you always see Invite players.
Don't blame this on the tournament organizers.
I tried and man it sucked. While I think some players apreciated what I tried to do, I know that Hungarians got inspired and they started their own Hungarian League, this is not going to work because the mentality of the VIEWERS can not change. And no, this didn't sucked because the players I had. I had some really awesome players. It sucked because no one was interested.
Popular players are always going to get the attention. Popular players are not always the good players. There are plenty of examples which I'm not going to give ... because if you say something critical about someone popular you get the "community" on your head.
I'm sorry but, at least to me, it's not about popularity. It's about who's the best. I'm pretty sure none of the guys you mention hold up against the best foreigners and they surely won't hold up against code A/S koreans. It's like saying that people enjoy the premier league because the teams are popular. Sure it's that too but surely you recognize the fact that people want to watch the highest level of play? You are missing the point. The point was that the EU/NA players are not motivated because they don't have something to fight for. And even if they sometimes to, you always get a Korean. While for some people will work, for some people will not be fair. There are other events besides NASL, MLG, etc where you do expect the best of the best, but in the meantime you have nothing. Not every player out there is supported by a big team. Not every player out there has a good motivation. YOu have a motivation until some point, but then you are losing it.
Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is not that small. Problem is that viewers always chose to see the 5% of what is out there, and we chose to NOT support the rest. There's an abundance of SC2 and it's really not suprising that people watch the stuff with the best players. I'm sorry but why would i watch your tournament when i have a shitload of GSL, KSL, NASL, MLG, DH, HSC, and other vods available? There's just such an abundance of content and not enough of a fanbase to sustain lots of local small tournaments yet.
Exactly 
We complain that the EU and NA scene is declining, yet we always talk about the same shit. Check the guy above my post. We don't support our talented players and yet we complain.
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On January 26 2012 02:03 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 20:59 Ewic wrote:
@ dapierow & NightOfTheDead - I'm echoing what the OP is saying - tournaments are being won by the same people over and over again and there is little room for up-and-coming players to be noticed or win anything. I think you would understand when you devote as much time into this game I have and haven't received $1 for it. You're another perfect example of where this system fails. For you guys that don't know Ewic, he is a GM player on NA. He is one of VP's best players. He is a beast. But no one knows who he is because there is nowhere he can go to get noticed.
He's a beast compared to who? He's a beast compared to others on the NA ladder. There's just not enough people that care about that, we all just assume he'll get smashed by the top foreigners and most koreans. That mindset has been proven true more often than not and i just don't know what you want, there's just too much content from high end players that you already can't watch it all.
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On January 26 2012 02:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 02:05 PET wrote:On January 26 2012 02:03 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 26 2012 01:59 PET wrote:On January 26 2012 01:57 karpo wrote:On January 26 2012 01:53 PET wrote:
I know what the OP of this Thread means.
I'm also sick of Invite Tournaments. Yea sometimes they bring more viewers when you have Koreans, ok, but sometimes they are to much.
This is why in the League I recently organized I held 19 Qualifiers for several countries in the Europe.
I had a Hungarian qualifier where I saw some really talented players like Purple, StuntR & Breach. StuntR managed to qualify.
I had a Czech qualifier where Thebis managed to qualify even that players like DeViL, Harpner, & nukestrike.
I had a Polish qualifier where I got Indy & Forte.
I had French qualifiers where I saw Eeel and SonG. SonG actually managed to beat Laukyo and MoMaN and NeOAnGeL.
I had a Bulgarian qualifier where we had Insignia.
I had 2 Italian qualifiers where I got StarEagle and ZyM a 16 years old player.
etc
There are shitload of talented players out there, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and nobody will ever give a fuck.
This is why you always see 80% Koreans. This is why you always see Invite players.
Don't blame this on the tournament organizers.
I tried and man it sucked. While I think some players apreciated what I tried to do, I know that Hungarians got inspired and they started their own Hungarian League, this is not going to work because the mentality of the VIEWERS can not change. And no, this didn't sucked because the players I had. I had some really awesome players. It sucked because no one was interested.
Popular players are always going to get the attention. Popular players are not always the good players. There are plenty of examples which I'm not going to give ... because if you say something critical about someone popular you get the "community" on your head.
I'm sorry but, at least to me, it's not about popularity. It's about who's the best. I'm pretty sure none of the guys you mention hold up against the best foreigners and they surely won't hold up against code A/S koreans. It's like saying that people enjoy the premier league because the teams are popular. Sure it's that too but surely you recognize the fact that people want to watch the highest level of play? You are missing the point. The point was that the EU/NA players are not motivated because they don't have something to fight for. And even if they sometimes to, you always get a Korean. While for some people will work, for some people will not be fair. There are other events besides NASL, MLG, etc where you do expect the best of the best, but in the meantime you have nothing. Seriously, name korean invites who hasn't earned their place. You're saying some no name player who has just started working deserves more attention than a korean who has been in the scene and has been competing forever? Ok, we might as well blame players like Huk and Idra who are not only better, but also get free rides to these tournaments. No one invites obscure korean no name B teamers. B teamers have to work through qualifiers just like everyone else, and hey guess what, they fucking win cause they're better and have been working harder for longer. You're blaming the current talent for the woes of the up and comers, and it really should have nothing to do with whether they're korean or not. You are the classic viewer I am talking about. This has NOTHING to do with HuK or Koreans in general. It has to do with the declining of Pro-Players in Europe and NA. Yes, because I have infinity hours and money on my hands that I can support some guy who has probably played the game for about a year for 4 hours a day and who still can't manage to prevent himself from a moving his shit after he turtles for 20 minutes.
I my friend are something I can not say. You clearly talk without knowing what you talk about. Again, you are the classic VIEWERS who only know the 5%, but there is much more there. You just have to look.
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On January 25 2012 21:22 MorroW wrote:
this article is pretty stupid
its actually the other way around.
koreans have a really hard time getting noticed even when they become gosu. there are hundreds of korean gosus but we really just notice and keep an eye on about 10% of them.
how many foreigner gosus are there? doesnt matter we keep an eye on 100% of them, we even follow players that arent gosus but are "pretty good for foreigner".
they have to practice like crazy, to one day qualify for code a (takes from 1 month to 1 year lol) and then hopefully get noticed.
foreigners get to GM in and sign up for weekly cups, after a while he starts getting noticed because he gets like top8 in weekly cups.
the amount of work you have to do, the cheer skill you need as a korean to get noticed is alot higher than for foreigners. because these up and coming foreigners doesnt have to climb up as high in skill to start winning tournaments.
so its easier in a few ways:
1: you dont need as much skill to win weeklys
2: there are tournaments everywhere you can play in the foreigner scene
3: you get noticed much more easily because foreigner scene obviously follows the foreigner scene more
the reason why theres more koreans on the top, why foreigner teams are recruiting more koreans etc is because they are better and the teams want them to win.
i dont know the reason why theres few foreigner progamers or few up and coming. but im 110% sure its not because its too hard to get noticed. its really really easy and anyone could do it that knows what hard work and dedication means.
take nerchio as an example. he was a noname that practiced hard, became a top foreigner in skill, won a shitton of weekly cups and the he started to get invited to tournaments. and now hes famous and skilled enough to get to lans like homestory cup.
if you know how it works on both sides and u put them up together, you soon realize that its alot easier for foreigners to get famous, money and invites to tournamnets
and on a sidenote. the graph you pulled up is the amount of players on the server, that has nothing to do with the amount of players that is trying to become progamers and famous
Koreans don't get noticed by us the viewers. But you better believe a GM Korean on the ladder gets noticed by a proteam. It's not about necessarily being noticed by the fans. It's more about being able to get yourself in a position to go pro (by getting on a team). They get noticed by other players when they compete in Code A qualifiers. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying their path is easier. Quite the contrary, it is probably harder. But there path has clear, tangible goals. A foreigner's does not. A foreigners path to success is as much about luck as it is anything else.
And fan support is only important to a foreigner. A foreigner can't get on a team without popularity/fan support, which is why I brought up the notion.
Yes, I agree the players on the server has nothing to do with the number wanting to go pro. Show me data on that and I'll include it (it doesn't exist). Server numbers are as close as we can get.
And don't give me evidence of a single player like Nerchio. Nerchio is one fucking example compared to the plethora of new Koreans emerging on a very regular basis. Yea there is also Feast that's starting to make a name for himself. How about Snute? But the absolute number of new players outside of Korea is negligible compared to the new talent emerging in Korea on a regular basis.
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On January 26 2012 02:09 PET wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 02:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 26 2012 02:05 PET wrote:On January 26 2012 02:03 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 26 2012 01:59 PET wrote:On January 26 2012 01:57 karpo wrote:On January 26 2012 01:53 PET wrote:
I know what the OP of this Thread means.
I'm also sick of Invite Tournaments. Yea sometimes they bring more viewers when you have Koreans, ok, but sometimes they are to much.
This is why in the League I recently organized I held 19 Qualifiers for several countries in the Europe.
I had a Hungarian qualifier where I saw some really talented players like Purple, StuntR & Breach. StuntR managed to qualify.
I had a Czech qualifier where Thebis managed to qualify even that players like DeViL, Harpner, & nukestrike.
I had a Polish qualifier where I got Indy & Forte.
I had French qualifiers where I saw Eeel and SonG. SonG actually managed to beat Laukyo and MoMaN and NeOAnGeL.
I had a Bulgarian qualifier where we had Insignia.
I had 2 Italian qualifiers where I got StarEagle and ZyM a 16 years old player.
etc
There are shitload of talented players out there, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and nobody will ever give a fuck.
This is why you always see 80% Koreans. This is why you always see Invite players.
Don't blame this on the tournament organizers.
I tried and man it sucked. While I think some players apreciated what I tried to do, I know that Hungarians got inspired and they started their own Hungarian League, this is not going to work because the mentality of the VIEWERS can not change. And no, this didn't sucked because the players I had. I had some really awesome players. It sucked because no one was interested.
Popular players are always going to get the attention. Popular players are not always the good players. There are plenty of examples which I'm not going to give ... because if you say something critical about someone popular you get the "community" on your head.
I'm sorry but, at least to me, it's not about popularity. It's about who's the best. I'm pretty sure none of the guys you mention hold up against the best foreigners and they surely won't hold up against code A/S koreans. It's like saying that people enjoy the premier league because the teams are popular. Sure it's that too but surely you recognize the fact that people want to watch the highest level of play? You are missing the point. The point was that the EU/NA players are not motivated because they don't have something to fight for. And even if they sometimes to, you always get a Korean. While for some people will work, for some people will not be fair. There are other events besides NASL, MLG, etc where you do expect the best of the best, but in the meantime you have nothing. Seriously, name korean invites who hasn't earned their place. You're saying some no name player who has just started working deserves more attention than a korean who has been in the scene and has been competing forever? Ok, we might as well blame players like Huk and Idra who are not only better, but also get free rides to these tournaments. No one invites obscure korean no name B teamers. B teamers have to work through qualifiers just like everyone else, and hey guess what, they fucking win cause they're better and have been working harder for longer. You're blaming the current talent for the woes of the up and comers, and it really should have nothing to do with whether they're korean or not. You are the classic viewer I am talking about. This has NOTHING to do with HuK or Koreans in general. It has to do with the declining of Pro-Players in Europe and NA. Yes, because I have infinity hours and money on my hands that I can support some guy who has probably played the game for about a year for 4 hours a day and who still can't manage to prevent himself from a moving his shit after he turtles for 20 minutes. I my friend are something I can not say. You clearly talk without knowing what you talk about. Again, you are the classic VIEWERS who only know the 5%, but there is much more there. You just have to look.
You whine about the same stuff over and over yet people have explained to you why they do what they do. I want to watch the best play. Why watch your 95% of low ranked players when the 5% has better quality and better players and a practically endless amount of vods?
Should i start watching the 95% (NA/US players) out of pity for the scene and their plight?
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On January 26 2012 02:09 PET wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 02:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 26 2012 02:05 PET wrote:On January 26 2012 02:03 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 26 2012 01:59 PET wrote:On January 26 2012 01:57 karpo wrote:On January 26 2012 01:53 PET wrote:
I know what the OP of this Thread means.
I'm also sick of Invite Tournaments. Yea sometimes they bring more viewers when you have Koreans, ok, but sometimes they are to much.
This is why in the League I recently organized I held 19 Qualifiers for several countries in the Europe.
I had a Hungarian qualifier where I saw some really talented players like Purple, StuntR & Breach. StuntR managed to qualify.
I had a Czech qualifier where Thebis managed to qualify even that players like DeViL, Harpner, & nukestrike.
I had a Polish qualifier where I got Indy & Forte.
I had French qualifiers where I saw Eeel and SonG. SonG actually managed to beat Laukyo and MoMaN and NeOAnGeL.
I had a Bulgarian qualifier where we had Insignia.
I had 2 Italian qualifiers where I got StarEagle and ZyM a 16 years old player.
etc
There are shitload of talented players out there, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and nobody will ever give a fuck.
This is why you always see 80% Koreans. This is why you always see Invite players.
Don't blame this on the tournament organizers.
I tried and man it sucked. While I think some players apreciated what I tried to do, I know that Hungarians got inspired and they started their own Hungarian League, this is not going to work because the mentality of the VIEWERS can not change. And no, this didn't sucked because the players I had. I had some really awesome players. It sucked because no one was interested.
Popular players are always going to get the attention. Popular players are not always the good players. There are plenty of examples which I'm not going to give ... because if you say something critical about someone popular you get the "community" on your head.
I'm sorry but, at least to me, it's not about popularity. It's about who's the best. I'm pretty sure none of the guys you mention hold up against the best foreigners and they surely won't hold up against code A/S koreans. It's like saying that people enjoy the premier league because the teams are popular. Sure it's that too but surely you recognize the fact that people want to watch the highest level of play? You are missing the point. The point was that the EU/NA players are not motivated because they don't have something to fight for. And even if they sometimes to, you always get a Korean. While for some people will work, for some people will not be fair. There are other events besides NASL, MLG, etc where you do expect the best of the best, but in the meantime you have nothing. Seriously, name korean invites who hasn't earned their place. You're saying some no name player who has just started working deserves more attention than a korean who has been in the scene and has been competing forever? Ok, we might as well blame players like Huk and Idra who are not only better, but also get free rides to these tournaments. No one invites obscure korean no name B teamers. B teamers have to work through qualifiers just like everyone else, and hey guess what, they fucking win cause they're better and have been working harder for longer. You're blaming the current talent for the woes of the up and comers, and it really should have nothing to do with whether they're korean or not. You are the classic viewer I am talking about. This has NOTHING to do with HuK or Koreans in general. It has to do with the declining of Pro-Players in Europe and NA. Yes, because I have infinity hours and money on my hands that I can support some guy who has probably played the game for about a year for 4 hours a day and who still can't manage to prevent himself from a moving his shit after he turtles for 20 minutes. I my friend are something I can not say. You clearly talk without knowing what you talk about. Again, you are the classic VIEWERS who only know the 5%, but there is much more there. You just have to look.
??????
I know what's out there. I've seen it, but I'm not going back to it because
1. it's boring
2. they're not good
3. i'd rather spend my time elsewhere
Point is, these guys ARE GETTING A LOT MORE HELP than anyone who started out in the korean scene. I'm not capable of nurturing these guys until they actually (if ever) get to a point where they can compete. This is the job of the amateur- to get good by themselves until they get noticed in bigger things. It's not unfair, everyone started off this way. Idra, Huk, MVP, hell, even Flash at one point.
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On January 25 2012 20:53 slmw wrote:I took the same data from each three servers, added dates from patches and this is what i got: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tvXq4.png) What did we do differently? Here's the data: + Show Spoiler +
Where did you get this data? I'm just pulling numbers from sc2ranks. It shows nothing similar to what your data does so someone is making a mistake.
Anyways here's the data for current path SC2 players from sc2ranks: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/all/all/all
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Foreigners wouldn't get dropped from teams if they perform well and put effort into being a good figurehead in the community.
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On January 25 2012 21:02 XRaDiiX wrote:
Would this explain why Masters is harder this season.
Yes. I think so. I think it's obvious that the players that do stay are those of higher skill (it's obvious that the higher skilled players are more active, which is why blizzard had to manipulate the bonus pool system).
If the lower leagues are dropping off, then yes, the top 2% (masters) previously would account for more than 2% of the current player pool and some would have to be dropped off.
So I'm guessing this is exactly why masters has become harder (although this is purely hypothetical).
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Maybe if Blizzard added a competent custom games system (or copied their own system from years ago (Warcraft 3)), clan support and better chat channels, tournament and spectator systems, or, god forbid, something innovative, people would be more inclined to stay online and play. Instead they seem content to sit on their IP and churn out a few more uninspired Starcraft titles with absolute minimal risk.
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This is one of the most thoughtful threads I've read in a while. I 100% agree with your analysis. Take for example a player like Axslav. He was recently cut from EG despite being an incredibly smart, solid player. There's a huge thread on the reasons why he may have been cut, so I don't want to get into it here, but IMO it's probably because he's hardly marketable.
It's kind of sad when success or failure in this sport comes down to pure popularity and personality. Do we want eSports to be more like pro Football or Baseball, or more like pro Wrestling? Food for thought.
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On January 25 2012 20:30 Bswhunter wrote:
wat.
no u see peopel can still break into the scene, its just easier than like a year ago.
you wont get like, a massive burst of popularity, but say im like good n shit, playing on US server, i see say, destiny on ladder.
we have a good game, im like yo, lets play 2v2's.
then we play 2v2's im on his skype talking n shit. if im intresting enough then some of the people on his stream will come and watch mine or something, idk.
(not that that's gunna happen, im a diamond lvl sea player lol)
Lol. If you think it is anything like this, you're insane. Playing pros on ladder usually consists of them bming you or you being unable to message them after because they can't accept messages from non friends. Attero is the only "pro" I've hit on ladder that wasn't a dick.
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On January 26 2012 02:08 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 02:03 DoomsVille wrote:On January 25 2012 20:59 Ewic wrote:
@ dapierow & NightOfTheDead - I'm echoing what the OP is saying - tournaments are being won by the same people over and over again and there is little room for up-and-coming players to be noticed or win anything. I think you would understand when you devote as much time into this game I have and haven't received $1 for it. You're another perfect example of where this system fails. For you guys that don't know Ewic, he is a GM player on NA. He is one of VP's best players. He is a beast. But no one knows who he is because there is nowhere he can go to get noticed. He's a beast compared to who? He's a beast compared to others on the NA ladder. There's just not enough people that care about that, we all just assume he'll get smashed by the top foreigners and most koreans. That mindset has been proven true more often than not and i just don't know what you want, there's just too much content from high end players that you already can't watch it all.
Ok let me elaborate a bit.
You know this 3 players ...  Kas, Beastyqt,  BlinG? Yea. Crappy UNKNOWN PLAYERS.
Oh my GOD what have I said???
I know this players since 2010 when they were the "crappy players". Why they were crappy? Because they are not popular.
This like the user Itsmedudeman said.
Yes, because I have infinity hours and money on my hands that I can support some guy who has probably played the game for about a year for 4 hours a day and who still can't manage to prevent himself from a moving his shit after he turtles for 20 minutes.
You just called described Kas, Beastyqt and BlinG (only some examples). This is the mentality of the SC2 community.
Now let me tell you the real important thing.
Kas, Beastyqt and BlinG were NOT crappy in 2010. Actually there were pretty awesome. Every time I casted them I had a lot of fun. They had creative builds that worked. They practiced a lot.
Kas became known in TSL. Beastyqt is still very underrated. BlinG because popular because he was picked up by Dignitas and had decent results in the past months. How was BlinG picked up? He won a contest that Dignitas held for UK players.
All those players were pretty unknown and CRAPPY as you describe them. Kas and Beasty turtled for 20 minutes... etc etc etc.
Why you say this is because you don't KNOW the actual side of eSports. There are a ton of good players who can put up a show. There are a ton of very dedicated players that people don't know and don't care. Example ...  Naugrim.
There are other players who are out there. Good players who can not rise because no one knows about them. So they become demotivated and some "retire".
So you can't expect for our Talent to grow if we don't support them. You can't expect EU/NA scene to grow and constantly get new players if you don't look at them to support them. Yea. Some of them will not beat KOREANS OMG !!1111
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IdrA already contributed to this thread, said all that needs to be said when combined with MorroW's response. The fans wish they understood the scene as much as the pros do, but they don't. That's as much as I gleaned from this.
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Don't want to be the pessimist here but at some point you have to question whether Starcraft 2 can support an industry so robust that random NA players can hope to become pro simply through their skill and results. As popular and important as SC2 may seem to us, you still have to be realistic about the scale of the business models it can support. The fact of the matter is that unless you get really lucky or have prodigy-esque skill, you aren't going to turn a living out of the game.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6BXU2.png)
