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On January 25 2012 19:17 red4ce wrote:
Wow I didn't know the foreign player base was shrinking so fast.Hopefully HoTS brings most of these people back. Honestly though I don't think the casual player base has much of an effect on the proscene. Even back when SC2 was more popular, almost all of our top pros came from Brood War or WC3. If you compare the Korean under-18 team vs the foreigner under-18 team, both of which consist mainly of players new to progaming, the gap looks as big as it was in Brood War.
You do need some kind of casual scene; otherwise, there won't be any influx of new blood. Players from SC1 or WC3 are just as likely to retire as to switch to SC2. And they won't have the shelf-life of newer players.
What you never want to have is the stigma that a game is dead. Once a game is believed to be dead, casuals avoid it like the plague.
HotS will bring back a lot of players. But most of them will leave just as quickly. Not everyone wants to pick up a game and stick with it for years. And that is as it should be.
Hardcore competitive play isn't for everyone.
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.. so there are only 500 k people playing this game somewhat actively?
.. or am i reading something wrong?
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First, I already agree with the previous criticisms:
1) the silly extrapolation
2) the more plausible alternative explanation about casual fanbase being the source of your data
3) the fact that foreigners have online cups as their "motivation"
In my opinion, the state of the foreign scene is pretty bleak. Just take a long hard look at some of the tournament results. If you look at the foreign scene, it is the usual suspects in every event since release. The very first foreign SC2 tournament was IEM Cologne in 2010. Guess who the top 3 were? Morrow, IdrA and Dimaga. The entire player list is represents pretty much the top tier foreigner list to this date. But if you look at the Korean scene there are always new players popping up. There is much more turnover with new players developing, getting noticed and entering competitive. The motivation just isn’t there for foreigners because there is no clear way to get noticed. However there are ways to solve this though.
I disagree severely with the OP's opinion. No, Morrow, Idra, and Dimaga do not represent the top tier foreigner list. Kas, Nerchio, Stephano, Huk, Naniwa, and ThorZain round up the top of the foreigners - none of those names listed had much of a presence around that period in IEM Cologne. Kas and Nerchio are notable for their rise through online qualifiers.
A lot more tournaments also use qualifiers than you assume. IEM, IPL, MLG, ESWC, WCG, and Dreamhack all involved either qualifiers or open brackets as part of their tournament. Some of these tournaments have also featured the appearance. of foreigners not well known, such as Gatored.
Additionally, it seems like you haven't read that very well authored article that TL recently featured regarding the IPL team league (which really is a shame, it's an amazing article). Team leagues are another way to get lesser known players into the scene, and the rise of both the NASTL/IPLAC team leagues are signs of a bright future. Already, Vile has made its stamp with its qualifier and wins over Korean teams, giving exposure to lesser known players [who might I add, aren't completely unknown, but too, received some acclaim via tournaments like MLG with open brackets].
So no, your doomsday naysaying doesn't make any sense - all signs considered, things are looking pretty cheery.
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It's pretty simple...if foreigners want to get noticed they need to play better. I realize that the infrastructure isn't as established in the foreigner scene for getting players into a team house with regular practice partners, but that excuse is just that, an excuse. A real competitor would overcome it.
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On January 26 2012 00:53 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 00:19 D_K_night wrote:
I think there's also the psychological factor behind the invitationals as well. Allow me to explain, using a nightclub analogy.
Everyone who's a "nobody" is forced to line-up allow the wall outside the nightclub(even when the club is nowhere near packed), and the VIP's simply walk up to the bouncer, and slip right under the ropes. This does several things:
- builds the desire to be like those VIP's. Not stand outside in the cold, freezing your backside off
I don't know whether I am alone with this opinion, but whenever I see an invitational, depending on what players were invited (and in that case I tend to look at the worst player of that lineup), I am more inklined to think "oh great, another tournament which priotizes popularity over skill".
that's fine, another thing to ask ourselves is, where did this popularity come from? Did this person know someone on the inside? Why is this person "popular"? Is it from their ability to sell themselves? Their looks?
It kinda goes back to just about any social circle. Why are some people always continually tops on the invite list, whereas the others are just filler or there if the VIP's drop out? I think it's human nature, in the case of a tournament, there are business reasons we all know about as well.
That's why in my previous post here, I believe my solution helps everyone concerned.
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On January 25 2012 19:16 xrapture wrote:
Sc2 is just too hard. Why play SC2 when there is a myriad of easy games. New players play for a little and are put off. There's really no reason to play a game with such a steep learning curve and most players in the foreign scene probably don't know that pro SC players exist.
I see the trend continuing. Even myself, a master's player, have found myself thinking, "eh fuck it. I'll just play MW3 or Skyrim isntead-- SC is too stressful." Video games are for entertainment, not stress.
I'm pretty sure it just got too boring for a lot of people.Also every game can be stressful but most of the times you make it so.
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I really don't know what you're getting at. Shouldn't there be gains if koreans come to teamhouses and knocks out the leechers? Shouldn't a mix of fresh foreign blood and good disciplined koreans be good for the foreign teams? I don't really care for any foreigner because it just doesn't feel like they can compete with the best koreans and that's why i don't really care for smalltime tournaments that don't invite the best of the best.
Sure sometimes a unknown player can do really well against a korean, like your example, Gatored. Yet there's lots and lots more examples where NA/EU players get completely demolished by koreans. Providing more slots to EU/US players lowers any tournament level of play. It's not even debatable.
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The shrinking player base trend is nothing new. It's the shelf-life and Blizzard already addressed this by announcing 2 expansions to try and prolong the game's life more.
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On January 26 2012 01:15 Vicarios wrote:
.. so there are only 500 k people playing this game somewhat actively?
.. or am i reading something wrong?
No, its probably way less!
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On January 26 2012 01:24 Aela wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 01:15 Vicarios wrote:
.. so there are only 500 k people playing this game somewhat actively?
.. or am i reading something wrong? No, its probably way less!
Actually it's probably alot more, the 500k doesn't account for the 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and customs players.
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On January 26 2012 00:19 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 00:00 SonOfBoxer wrote:
TL;DR: If you guys want to reduce the drop rate, you should complain less and practice more. Unfortunately, that's impossible for all players, and unless foreign mentality changes, the game will keep on emptying.
Telling players that they have to practice more will only increase the drop rate. Not many people want to work, they want to have fun. Right now the community constantly puts pressure on its players to improve and play like the pros. This needs to be changed if we want to continue to have more players enter the scene. We need many more casual players and we need to grow that scene. Its the casual players who will eventually turn into the pros one day. In my opinion, balance has no effect on the far majority of SC2 players.
Im not so sure about the secong part of your post. I i think that it's not really a question about balance, but it might be about the percieved balance from the individual. It's a frustrating game, and if you get frustrated it's easy to blame the game for your own shortcomings ("that race is fucking stupid"), and maybe in the end you will grow tired and start playing less and less.
Though i find it interesting about the what you said about how people will quit because they want to play casual, and i agree. I think part of the problem is the ladder system as it is now. Blizzard has the current ladder system (with MMR and divisions) so that "everyone are gonna win an equal amount of matches". I.e. not get bashed to pieces as soon as you log in. Then there is division to measure your progress.
The thing is, no one really cares about how many games they win. Sure, no one likes to get completely bashed 10/10 games, but waht people really care about is what division they're in. They're not gonna feel good about themselves if they win 5 or 6 games out of 10 if they're still in bronze. What blizzard needs to do is replace this system (or implement another system) that rewards ACTIVITY. That's how you build an addictive game that people can't stop playing. People don't care about challenging themselves or getting better, all they care about is to have something pretty besides their name. That's why every MMORPG (yes wow) works. Doesn't need to be really fun (i guess that's subjective), it can be super monotone, but as long as there is a reward for activity people are gonna keep logging in.
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That's why we need a KESPA. Without synchronized actions, the biggies won't stop inviting Koreans. The reasoning is as follows:
Having a tourney with a lot of unknowns will benefit the ESPORT in the long run, but in the short horizon it will definitely negatively impacted the viewership. It's a prisoners' dilemma: everyone knows we NEED to do it, but anyone who DOES it will benefit others and harm self.
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On January 26 2012 01:32 mcgriffin wrote:
That's why we need a KESPA. Without synchronized actions, the biggies won't stop inviting Koreans. The reasoning is as follows:
Having a tourney with a lot of unknowns will benefit the ESPORT in the long run, but in the short horizon it will definitely negatively impacted the viewership. It's a prisoners' dilemma: everyone knows we NEED to do it, but anyone who DOES it will benefit others and harm self.
SC2 isn't big enough to have large tournaments with unknowns. There's just about enough to keep tournaments running while feeding the few famous players as it is. Even being a BW pro in korea isn't really worthwhile unless you're part of the few greats.
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i think this post is only looks at 1v1 players there are tons of people who plays starcraft but just not 1v1, customs 2v2-4v4 etc. i once played guy on custom that had 5k custom games played 0 ladders games. so i think that most of the "casuals" are just waiting for hots, started playing teamgames or customs. sure ppl have quited but that is to be expected and 500k ppl playing 1v1 games is alot imo
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I'm convinced that if there actually are no foreign pros, there will be no SC2 scene. What they have in korea isn't large enough to really sustain a healthy scene. There is pretty much just 1 tourney in kroea.
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On January 25 2012 22:39 -ForeverAlone- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote:
people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies.
you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. That's the problem the OP wants to highlight. The infrastructure to get good in NA is not as good in Korea, and this creates a selection bias. There aren't too many 15+ year olds in NA that can just turn their life into full time gaming, unless they already have a lot of money or a very supportive family. The concept of B-teams here doesn't really exist. I mean if we look at the top level pros on the scene today that support themselves only with SC2, a lot of them are there because they had the first mover advantage (HuK) or had the chance to develop before (you). This is made worse by the fact that a lot of tournaments are mostly invite-based.
WOOSH, you miss the point still. Korean amateurs trying to get on teams don't have any better infrastructure than anyone else. The only thing they have available to them is battlenet, just like everyone else. If you think training on Korean servers when you're a mid masters player is a huge advantage idk what to say. Idra wasn't even talking about B team players, he was talking about complete amateur no names without teams, which, this entire thread was about.
On January 26 2012 01:49 TORTOISE wrote:
I'm convinced that if there actually are no foreign pros, there will be no SC2 scene. What they have in korea isn't large enough to really sustain a healthy scene. There is pretty much just 1 tourney in kroea.
Probably not, but the SC2 scene couldn't survive without Korea either. Korea vs. foreigner storyline draws in a lot of viewers.
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I know what the OP of this Thread means.
I'm also sick of Invite Tournaments. Yea sometimes they bring more viewers when you have Koreans, ok, but sometimes they are to much.
This is why in the League I recently organized I held 19 Qualifiers for several countries in the Europe.
I had a Hungarian qualifier where I saw some really talented players like  Purple,  StuntR &  Breach. StuntR managed to qualify.
I had a Czech qualifier where Thebis managed to qualify even that players like Devil, Harpner, & nukestrike.
I had a Polish qualifier where I got Indy & Forte.
I had French qualifiers where I saw Eeel and SonG. SonG actually managed to beat Laukyo and MoMaN and NeOAnGeL.
I had a Bulgarian qualifier where we had insignia.
I had 2 Italian qualifiers where I got StarEagle and ZyM a 16 years old player.
etc
There are shitload of talented players out there, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and nobody will ever give a fuck.
This is why you always see 80% Koreans. This is why you always see Invite players.
Don't blame this on the tournament organizers.
I tried and man it sucked. While I think some players apreciated what I tried to do, I know that Hungarians got inspired and they started their own Hungarian League, this is not going to work because the mentality of the VIEWERS can not change. And no, this didn't sucked because the players I had. I had some really awesome players. It sucked because no one was interested.
Popular players are always going to get the attention. Popular players are not always the good players. There are plenty of examples which I'm not going to give ... because if you say something critical about someone popular you get the "community" on your head.
Anyway, the league finals were won by Beastyqt, I player I have been casting since 2010.
So even if you want to create something to motivate the players, in the end you will not succeed because the viewers will not be interested.
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On January 26 2012 01:27 skyrunner wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 00:19 drgoats wrote:On January 26 2012 00:00 SonOfBoxer wrote:
TL;DR: If you guys want to reduce the drop rate, you should complain less and practice more. Unfortunately, that's impossible for all players, and unless foreign mentality changes, the game will keep on emptying.
Telling players that they have to practice more will only increase the drop rate. Not many people want to work, they want to have fun. Right now the community constantly puts pressure on its players to improve and play like the pros. This needs to be changed if we want to continue to have more players enter the scene. We need many more casual players and we need to grow that scene. Its the casual players who will eventually turn into the pros one day.
In my humble opinion, the problem with the drop rate is balance.
In my opinion, balance has no effect on the far majority of SC2 players. Though i find it interesting about the what you said about how people will quit because they want to play casual, and i agree. I think part of the problem is the ladder system as it is now. Blizzard has the current ladder system (with MMR and divisions) so that "everyone are gonna win an equal amount of matches". I.e. not get bashed to pieces as soon as you log in. Then there is division to measure your progress. The thing is, no one really cares about how many games they win. Sure, no one likes to get completely bashed 10/10 games, but waht people really care about is what division they're in. They're not gonna feel good about themselves if they win 5 or 6 games out of 10 if they're still in bronze. What blizzard needs to do is replace this system (or implement another system) that rewards ACTIVITY. That's how you build an addictive game that people can't stop playing. People don't care about challenging themselves or getting better, all they care about is to have something pretty besides their name. That's why every MMORPG (yes wow) works. Doesn't need to be really fun (i guess that's subjective), it can be super monotone, but as long as there is a reward for activity people are gonna keep logging in.
I do believe that their system needs a change. That is why I believe that LoL is so successful right now. It is so accessible to newcomers and keeps them coming back for the ip and exp. Having the large casual player base feeds the pro scene. I will not be surprised if LoL is the #1 esport by the end of 2012 due mainly to its accessibility and growing casual player base.
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On January 26 2012 01:53 PET wrote:
I know what the OP of this Thread means.
I'm also sick of Invite Tournaments. Yea sometimes they bring more viewers when you have Koreans, ok, but sometimes they are to much.
This is why in the League I recently organized I held 19 Qualifiers for several countries in the Europe.
I had a Hungarian qualifier where I saw some really talented players like Purple, StuntR & Breach. StuntR managed to qualify.
I had a Czech qualifier where Thebis managed to qualify even that players like DeViL, Harpner, & nukestrike.
I had a Polish qualifier where I got Indy & Forte.
I had French qualifiers where I saw Eeel and SonG. SonG actually managed to beat Laukyo and MoMaN and NeOAnGeL.
I had a Bulgarian qualifier where we had Insignia.
I had 2 Italian qualifiers where I got StarEagle and ZyM a 16 years old player.
etc
There are shitload of talented players out there, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and nobody will ever give a fuck.
This is why you always see 80% Koreans. This is why you always see Invite players.
Don't blame this on the tournament organizers.
I tried and man it sucked. While I think some players apreciated what I tried to do, I know that Hungarians got inspired and they started their own Hungarian League, this is not going to work because the mentality of the VIEWERS can not change. And no, this didn't sucked because the players I had. I had some really awesome players. It sucked because no one was interested.
Popular players are always going to get the attention. Popular players are not always the good players. There are plenty of examples which I'm not going to give ... because if you say something critical about someone popular you get the "community" on your head.
I'm sorry but, at least to me, it's not about popularity. It's about who's the best.
I'm pretty sure none of the guys you mention hold up against the best foreigners and they surely won't hold up against code A/S koreans.
It's like saying that people enjoy the premier league because the teams are popular. Sure it's that too but surely you recognize the fact that people want to watch the highest level of play?
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On January 26 2012 01:57 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 01:53 PET wrote:
I know what the OP of this Thread means.
I'm also sick of Invite Tournaments. Yea sometimes they bring more viewers when you have Koreans, ok, but sometimes they are to much.
This is why in the League I recently organized I held 19 Qualifiers for several countries in the Europe.
I had a Hungarian qualifier where I saw some really talented players like Purple, StuntR & Breach. StuntR managed to qualify.
I had a Czech qualifier where Thebis managed to qualify even that players like DeViL, Harpner, & nukestrike.
I had a Polish qualifier where I got Indy & Forte.
I had French qualifiers where I saw Eeel and SonG. SonG actually managed to beat Laukyo and MoMaN and NeOAnGeL.
I had a Bulgarian qualifier where we had Insignia.
I had 2 Italian qualifiers where I got StarEagle and ZyM a 16 years old player.
etc
There are shitload of talented players out there, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and nobody will ever give a fuck.
This is why you always see 80% Koreans. This is why you always see Invite players.
Don't blame this on the tournament organizers.
I tried and man it sucked. While I think some players apreciated what I tried to do, I know that Hungarians got inspired and they started their own Hungarian League, this is not going to work because the mentality of the VIEWERS can not change. And no, this didn't sucked because the players I had. I had some really awesome players. It sucked because no one was interested.
Popular players are always going to get the attention. Popular players are not always the good players. There are plenty of examples which I'm not going to give ... because if you say something critical about someone popular you get the "community" on your head.
I'm sorry but, at least to me, it's not about popularity. It's about who's the best. I'm pretty sure none of the guys you mention hold up against the best foreigners and they surely won't hold up against code A/S koreans. It's like saying that people enjoy the premier league because the teams are popular. Sure it's that too but surely you recognize the fact that people want to watch the highest level of play?
You are missing the point. The point was that the EU/NA players are not motivated because they don't have something to fight for. And even if they sometimes to, you always get a Korean. While for some people will work, for some people will not be fair. There are other events besides NASL, MLG, etc where you do expect the best of the best, but in the meantime you have nothing. Not every player out there is supported by a big team. Not every player out there has a good motivation. YOu have a motivation until some point, but then you are losing it.
Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is not that small. Problem is that viewers always chose to see the 5% of what is out there, and we chose to NOT support the rest.
So while we focus on those 5% the other 95% struggle. Some of the players I talked about are very talented. However they can not reach their full talent if they don't have motivation.
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EPT
