|
I think there's also the psychological factor behind the invitationals as well. Allow me to explain, using a nightclub analogy.
Everyone who's a "nobody" is forced to line-up allow the wall outside the nightclub(even when the club is nowhere near packed), and the VIP's simply walk up to the bouncer, and slip right under the ropes. This does several things:
- builds the desire to be like those VIP's. Not stand outside in the cold, freezing your backside off
- builds exclusivity and emphasizes the divide between the social "haves" and "have-nots".
The only true way for a "nobody" to become a VIP, is to be a regular customer(who the nightclub profits off of in some obvious way, whether you blow tons of $$$ on the drinks, or you have the ability to attract more business to the club, in a consistent manner. Or *groan* you know someone on the inside).
So about the invitational thing. Let's think in terms of the event organizers. There are very clear gains associated with targeting known players like IdrA, Huk, who are "name brand" people that everyone knows about. Just those names alone will guarantee you a revenue stream. You need these players to build the sheer numbers. Remember Jinro vs IdrA from way back(Gorilla vs Gracken)? That was awesome, and we need more stuff like that.
This is why I feel the smaller online cup type event can benefit from a slight change in the format - make it just a pseudo-invitational something like this:
KOTH format where anyone from X league X rank may join(up to a maximum of X players, based on the organizer's timeframe etc). KOTH proceeds as per normal, then...
The "king" of the hill then...must face off against the "final boss" in a BO3 - let's just say IdrA. Have some fancy graphics of a gigantic monster guarding the cave of riches, with the shadowy silhouette(representing the player) approaching.
This accomplishes multiple goals:
- gives "no names" a chance to make a name for themselves
- guarantees viewers the chance to see an established pro at the end
- builds up a sense of momentum...who...in this rag tag group will make to the top? Can he truly take out the Gracken?
- good source of revenue for the organizers
- exposure for the pro
As far as prize pool is concerned - there are almost endless possibilities available and one possible suggestion would be:
- assuming total bucket of $1000
- pro gets $300 for his time automatically(incentive and due to him being on standby) - gains another $400 if he wins
- king of the hill gets $300, but to win another $400, he has to defeat the pro
So it's a tug-of-war between who gets that $400. Again this is just an example.
|
On January 26 2012 00:00 SonOfBoxer wrote:
TL;DR: If you guys want to reduce the drop rate, you should complain less and practice more. Unfortunately, that's impossible for all players, and unless foreign mentality changes, the game will keep on emptying.
Telling players that they have to practice more will only increase the drop rate. Not many people want to work, they want to have fun. Right now the community constantly puts pressure on its players to improve and play like the pros. This needs to be changed if we want to continue to have more players enter the scene. We need many more casual players and we need to grow that scene. Its the casual players who will eventually turn into the pros one day.
In my humble opinion, the problem with the drop rate is balance.
In my opinion, balance has no effect on the far majority of SC2 players.
|
On January 25 2012 23:03 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 22:39 -ForeverAlone- wrote:On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote:
people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies.
you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. That's the problem the OP wants to highlight. The infrastructure to get good in NA is not as good in Korea, and this creates a selection bias. There aren't too many 15+ year olds in NA that can just turn their life into full time gaming, unless they already have a lot of money or a very supportive family. The concept of B-teams here doesn't really exist. I mean if we look at the top level pros on the scene today that support themselves only with SC2, a lot of them are there because they had the first mover advantage (HuK) or had the chance to develop before (you). This is made worse by the fact that a lot of tournaments are mostly invite-based. how do you think i got that chance to develop? i ignored school and didnt have a social life for 2 years in order to win a tournament and move to korea at 18 to sit in a house and play starcraft1 with 0 return for another 3 years huk played sc2 all day on a shitty computer during the beta when there was no money in it and did everything he could to get to korea and then spent a year+ practicing in a korean house. most a team pros dont make salaries in korea. none of the b teamers do, the bottom of the barrel doesnt get to live in the house, they just get the priviledge of playing with the team if theyre good enough for people to want to practice with them. you have to sacrifice pretty much everything while you're on your way up. koreans are better because hundreds of them are willing to do it, a handful of nonkoreans are.
Exactly my thoughts. Granted, BW has its lead due time and culture, but many forget that this heritage had initially to be built upon sweat, blood and tears for the most part. One of the root problems is simply interest. Even for a country like KR there is hardly enough of it to support any basic level of organization. E-sports of all genres has been a "passion project" since its beginning and won't change any time soon. Companies are barely breaking even, let alone make money. Everyone is selling a product, be it a show, a tournament, a team or a player. There is no way to circumvent the prerequisite of hard work, the ability of providing something interesting and a fair chunk of luck.
Many people like to dwell in that gold-rush feeling of being involved in times of changes that has coincided with SC2. Sociological changes and improvements in technology and communication are redefining business models. But at the end of the day there is still not enough money for all the nice things we wish to have, period. It took established industries decades of development to finally acquire working models out of online businesses.
One can ask for streamlining the scene. It would have the side-effect of providing opportunities for newcomers, along with overall increase in efficiency. But it won't change the fact of money being finite. Maybe Gatored simply doesn't provide the amount of ROI needed for teams to hire him. Other industries are able to support many levels of the food chain because of an abundance of funding- SC2 is not there.
The OP wishes for a sustainable middle-class. His proposal includes legitimate solutions. But protectionism is not one of them. I do like the different philosophies behind both the Champions League and the World Cup. Both the NBA and the Olympic Games in Basketball. But I don't wish for either of them to become predominant. Multilateral competition is a nice "gimmick" for special occasions so to say, but the bottom line of day-to-day business is still the fundamental idea of free competition and finding the best. No national sports league is banning foreigners to be part in, there are thriving international transfer markets. Should one region be interested in also curating its own scene? Absolutely. But that is a different matter. NA already has the Collegiate Star League. Each NA, EU and KR already have their own weekly cups. OP is right in the goal of generating more interest in and supporting existing structures. To be able to raise interest, cooperation and mutual support can be a measure to add legitimacy, possible paths to publicity for both the tournament and the participating players. Your "path" of a pro gamer can very well start with the CSL, gain seasonal points via online cups and finish with a seed in one of the major tournaments. But that is a question of cooperation and efficiency between organizers.
|
On January 25 2012 18:58 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:
The graph represents player numbers for each region since the games release (taken from sc2ranks). For those really curious, it’s divided by patch. Half a year ago, EU/NA had 3-4x as many players as the Korean server did; now all 3 servers are about equal. That’s astonishing when you think about it. The drop-off for Koreans is minimal compared to Foreigners. And there’s no reason this trend won’t continue. http://xkcd.com/605/That's a GIGANTIC fucking assumption you just made. Here's an alternative theory: Each region has around 100k really hardcore people. Casual fans are dropping off (which is why the leagues are getting more exclusive), and Korea just never really had a large casual SC2 scene. Is that the correct theory? Dunno. It is equally as plausible as extrapolating? More so, since there's at least anecdotal evidence, which is slightly better than no evidence.
This.
This graph can be interperted in a million ways, I doubt foreigners will die completely.
If we take a look at tournaments, well then Korea only has 1 major sc2 tournament while the foreign scene has multiple like NASL, IEM, MLG, etc.
|
On January 25 2012 23:32 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 23:10 BrosephBrostar wrote:On January 25 2012 23:03 IdrA wrote:On January 25 2012 22:39 -ForeverAlone- wrote:On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote:
people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies.
you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. That's the problem the OP wants to highlight. The infrastructure to get good in NA is not as good in Korea, and this creates a selection bias. There aren't too many 15+ year olds in NA that can just turn their life into full time gaming, unless they already have a lot of money or a very supportive family. The concept of B-teams here doesn't really exist. I mean if we look at the top level pros on the scene today that support themselves only with SC2, a lot of them are there because they had the first mover advantage (HuK) or had the chance to develop before (you). This is made worse by the fact that a lot of tournaments are mostly invite-based. how do you think i got that chance to develop? i ignored school and didnt have a social life for 2 years in order to win a tournament and move to korea at 18 to sit in a house and play starcraft1 with 0 return for another 3 years huk played sc2 all day on a shitty computer during the beta when there was no money in it and did everything he could to get to korea and then spent a year+ practicing in a korean house. most a team pros dont make salaries in korea. none of the b teamers do, the bottom of the barrel doesnt get to live in the house, they just get the priviledge of playing with the team if theyre good enough for people to want to practice with them. you have to sacrifice pretty much everything while you're on your way up. koreans are better because hundreds of them are willing to do it, a handful of nonkoreans are. I think the point is that you both took advantage of the Korean system to get where you are now. Maybe I don't understand the situation well enough but it doesn't seem like western teams are offering the kind of opportunity you got with estro and cj. Does EG have unsalaried practice partners that you play with who could possibly work their way up to full members? i gave up a ton to get to korea. its much much easier to get to korea and take advantage of that system now. but except for a very few, everyone who comes leaves again after a couple months. people just dont put in the effort. they dont deserve to be succesful. Show nested quote +edit: On January 25 2012 23:07 IdrA wrote:On January 25 2012 22:48 BrosephBrostar wrote:On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote:
people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies.
you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. Think of the difference in skill between effort and the worst B-teamer you can remember. Do you really think EG would go out of their way to hire someone that far below yourself? they didnt hire them. most of the time that person stopped going to school and paid to live in a practice house. if he did well enough there the owners of the practice house would take him to a group tryout where he got a handful of games to impress the cj coaches. if he managed to do that he'd be allowed to became an online practice partner or if he did really, really fuckin well he could live in the house for free. so if some unknown was really impressive would scoots let him move into the eg house? what about all the other non-Korean teams that don't even have houses? that just devolves into quibbling about what counts as impressive. yes, but there arent unknown foreigners who would qualify as impressive. as morrow said its incredibly easy to get known outside of korea if you're actually good. theres tons of tournaments that top players dont play. if you're good enough to be on that level you should be winning those.
Well also theres a grand total of NA teams with team houses, EG and RGN, so if your goal is a team house I think it is harder to make it in the foreign scene than in korea, although RGN probably isn't that difficult.
|
I'm pretty sure the decrease in players has nothing to do with viewership which seems to be growing steadily. Viewership is what makes progamers able to live their lives in the west, so in conclusion, Nobody is going to retire when they can make money playing video games for an audience. The drop off in LADDER PLAYERS is not really a big concern.
|
On January 25 2012 18:58 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:
The graph represents player numbers for each region since the games release (taken from sc2ranks). For those really curious, it’s divided by patch. Half a year ago, EU/NA had 3-4x as many players as the Korean server did; now all 3 servers are about equal. That’s astonishing when you think about it. The drop-off for Koreans is minimal compared to Foreigners. And there’s no reason this trend won’t continue. http://xkcd.com/605/That's a GIGANTIC fucking assumption you just made. Here's an alternative theory: Each region has around 100k really hardcore people. Casual fans are dropping off (which is why the leagues are getting more exclusive), and Korea just never really had a large casual SC2 scene. Is that the correct theory? Dunno. It is equally as plausible as extrapolating? More so, since there's at least anecdotal evidence, which is slightly better than no evidence.
Rofl, wow that's an impeccably well played link.
|
Foreigners should not be picked up and given a chance if they aren't actually that good. Obviously its a lot to expect someone to be good enough to take down top-tier koreans at a tournament and get noticed, but at the same time, those top-tier koreans didn't become top-tier by placing 30th in a tournament, getting picked up by a team and then become the player they are today. People become noticed by winning things and if you can't do it, tough luck. I do agree however, that tournaments should be less invite-based. Players should have the chance to be noticed by qualifying, but they shouldn't be give any more opportunity than that.
|
most fans in sc2 are foreigner fans, foreigner fans like foreign players. just like Korean fans probably prefer korean players. its natural. the closer u feel to the player the more fun it is to watch the games no?
|
it seems that the foreing pro gamers always seem to be the same 'ol people.never changing. Koreans we see players rise and fall quickly as well.... but outside korea its all the same players from my knowledge that are known.
|
On January 26 2012 00:35 Naniwa wrote:
most fans in sc2 are foreigner fans, foreigner fans like foreign players. just like Korean fans probably prefer korean players. its natural. the closer u feel to the player the more fun it is to watch the games no?
Yes, definitely.
Kiwikaki FTW! T'es #1 dans mon coeur.
|
On January 26 2012 00:05 steelcurtain09 wrote:
tl;dr: The current numbers on SC2Ranks are only for the first month of season 5, while all of the previous patches are each snapshots from 3-4 months into previous seasons.
I think that the data that the OP is using is based off a flawed understanding of how SC2Ranks works. SC2Ranks takes data from the current season, not the current patch. What this means is that if you have not qualified for the current season in a certain league, then you will not appear on SC2Ranks. Yes, they do have data from old patches, but that is just a snapshot from the day the patches ended. These snapshots were taken from the middle of seasons one to three which were each four to six months long meaning that we had months worth of people who played just enough to qualify but then never touched ladder again. Now, the only people who are showing up are people who have qualified for season 5, no one who qualified during season 4 (which was during this current patch) but hasn't played since is going to be shown. So the numbers haven't necessarily fallen down as much as they appear (from ~670k in 1v1 during patch 1.4.1 to currently ~225k in 1v1); we just have far fewer people accumulating through the months to boost up the numbers. Remember that patch 1.4.1 was in existance for the entirety of the four month long season 3. The current number of people shown now have only been accumulating over less than a month. I remember that near the end of season 4, there were about 400k people in 1v1 after only two months of accumulation, so these numbers will definitely rise as the season progresses.
Now, these numbers on SC2Ranks say nothing about how dedicated these players are, but I just wanted to point out that the drawing sweeping conclusions from just taking pure numbers from SC2Ranks is acting on a flawed concept.
Exactly this, basing your assumptions on team houses, foreigners having no goals, no new foreign stars etc on a flawed interpretation of the player graph just adds no credibility to your post. Looking at the league distribution you can actually see that in EU and US, master and diamond players are gaining a bigger percentage relative to the total player pool. The only thing this says is there are less and less new players starting to play SC2, which can be expected for an almost 2 years old game. It's true that there are less overall players, but that has been the case for most seasons when you look at the stats mid season.
|
On January 26 2012 00:19 D_K_night wrote:
I think there's also the psychological factor behind the invitationals as well. Allow me to explain, using a nightclub analogy.
Everyone who's a "nobody" is forced to line-up allow the wall outside the nightclub(even when the club is nowhere near packed), and the VIP's simply walk up to the bouncer, and slip right under the ropes. This does several things:
- builds the desire to be like those VIP's. Not stand outside in the cold, freezing your backside off
I don't know whether I am alone with this opinion, but whenever I see an invitational, depending on what players were invited (and in that case I tend to look at the worst player of that lineup), I am more inklined to think "oh great, another tournament which priotizes popularity over skill".
|
Nothing surprising for the popularity of the game decreasing in NA/EU; players who really enjoy the game stick with it and the players that left got bored with the game and move on to another title !
|
It is harder to set up a team house here because the players are living in different country! In SK it is quite small compared ,so easier to get the house set up and get best practice session!
Also, this game is hard and going pro requires tons of games!
|
Koreans ...
lol, i thought this is a joke, unfortunately it's not... :/
|
if your not a competitive person which most people aren't ladder starts to get boring and uninteresting, people are just waiting for new content.
|
being one of those GM streamers who gets a depressing amount of viewers and gets knocked out of the NA playhem by [insert korean here] every single day, i can 100% agree with this post. doomsville's thoughts match my experiences perfectly xD
|
On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:
It’s no secret that the way to win is to hire Koreans. They are the best players in the world, no doubt about it. Even Code A Koreans are better than the majority of foreigners.
I'm gonna cherrypick something I found silly. Did you know Code A Koreans are better than the majority of Korean players as well? To end a paragraph with such a lousy point diminishes your validity greatly.
You do bring up some facts, but there are numerous flaws in your logic throughout your post (imo).
Also the high amount of attention given to the top players work as an incentive for lesser known players to keep working hard so they can be the top player one day.
|
Assuming your graphs are correct, it makes sense that there would be a huge swell in EU and the Americas which would then drop off. Most of the people I know will buy, or at least be interested in new games. So you get massive player numbers. SC2, however. is not like most games. Playing the average FPS, you can get better simply by playing and learning the maps. You might never be top tier, but you can improve by playing. If you only play SC2, you will get a little better, to a point. After that. you actually need to study builds, and practice specific strategies. This will ultimately turn off people who just bought the game because it was the new thing. The player numbers then drop, leaving only those who are really interested in improving. The situation in Korea is different, because the scene is so big there, that generally players knew what they were getting in to before the game came out.
I think that this is natural, and the diminished player numbers just mean that only the dedicated remain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
