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The Foreigner Dilemma

Forum Index > SC2 General
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DoomsVille
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada4885 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-25 18:00:20
January 25 2012 09:47 GMT
#1
EDIT: Morrow brings up the notion that Koreas have it much harder than foreigners. Don't misconstrue this argument. I'm not saying it's easier for a Korean vs. a Foreigner. It is harder in fact. But they have a clear, tangible path on their way. They have clear goals. Foreigners have to keep playing and hope they get noticed one day. This shouldn't be the case. There should be a way for them to get noticed. There should be qualifiers for major events for them to have a chance to get noticed.

EDIT 2: There are actually subtle differences between NA and EU (which, IMO, is why there are atleast some new european pros emerging). The difference is there are much more online cups and leagues running in europe. On top of the playhem dailies, they have go4sc2s, zotacs, competos etc. etc. etc. While this isn't reliable income, you can one day make some money off of these and get noticed (like Nerchio). NA doesn't have enough of these IMO. And the ones that do pop up are won by Koreans anyways (as the times for them are pretty good for Koreans to play).

EDIT 3: IdrA brought up the point of just dropping everything, going to Korea and trying to go pro (like DesRow is doing). Personally I think a foreigner that wants to go pro needs to do that. Korea has the infrastructure and foreigners can make use of it. But one has to admit it is significantly easier for a Korean to drop his life and stay exactly where he is to do it vs. a foreigner that has to drop his life, then move to korea and worry about where he's going to live and whether he can afford it.

EDIT 4: Many of you bring up the notion that the player numbers dropping is a result of casuals just dropping out of the game and what remains are hardcore players. Let's hope that is this case. Anyways, my entire argument doesn't hinge on just the player numbers. There are still issues with the system.

EDIT 5: Open qualifiers are what has made stars out of anyone that has risen in the SC2 scene. Stephano qualifying for IPL3 and erupting into stardom, ThorZain for TSL3, NaNiwa for TSL3/MLG Dallas. For the health of the scene we need more qualifiers and less inviting.

TL;DR at the beginning because this is huge: foreign player pool is dying. Foreigners are going to stop existing in SC2 one day.

Alright guys, this is going to be long. So get ready. This is a post about where the SC2 community is headed and why, unless we make some drastic changes, our community as we know it will shrink substantially. In the last few weeks we’ve read tons of articles about foreign teams dropping their foreign players and picking up new Korean players. EG dropped Axslav/Strifecro and grabbed JYP, fnatic has dropped the majority of the roster and recently picked up Moon and this trend will definitely continue. It’s no secret that the way to win is to hire Koreans. They are the best players in the world, no doubt about it. Even Code A Koreans are better than the majority of foreigners. So for a foreign team of course it makes sense to grab a Korean instead; it’s a no-brainer.

So what is the problem? It’s no secret that the best way to succeed with a tournament is to mix the following: top tier well known foreigners (IdrA, Huk, white-ra etc.), a few well known Koreans and a celebrity caster or two (day[9], totalbiscuit, etc.). You mix all of those elements and unless your show is a catastrophe, you will get viewer numbers. Thankfully for us, the celebrity casters aren’t going anywhere. We love day[9] and I like to think he loves us too. So he’s here as long as we are. Koreans obviously aren’t going anywhere. But the last element might.

At some point all progamers retire. Some have extremely long careers (ex. Grubby was a WC3 progamer for almost the entire existence of professional WC3) and others retire quickly (Creolophus was a WC3 progamer that made his mark in a single year and retired, similar to what Stephano intends on doing). At some point all progamers will retire. A sustainable e-sports model requires there be new progamers to replace them. This has always been an issue in e-sports. It is very common for progamers to retire with almost no one to replace them. This is simply because the barrier to entry gets steeper and steeper as a game develops (BW at the start was filled with noobs compared to the level of refinement from a Flash or Jaedong). So you can see why declining player numbers is a huge issue (especially since NA/EU are declining at a much faster rate). This is a large part of the reason why e-sports scene often die.

Of course this applies to both Korean and Foreign progamers but it is more of a concern for foreigners.

[image loading]

The graph represents player numbers for each region since the games release (taken from sc2ranks). For those really curious, it’s divided by patch. Half a year ago, EU/NA had 3-4x as many players as the Korean server did; now all 3 servers are about equal. That’s astonishing when you think about it. The drop-off for Koreans is minimal compared to Foreigners. And there’s no reason this trend won’t continue.

Let’s try to figure out why. First I’m going to paint you a picture of a Korean that is trying to go pro. He’ll start off a scrub; 4gating his way up the ladder. He’ll land in a lower league and slowly start working his way up. Along the way he has tangible goals; first to get into gold, then platinum, then diamond and finally masters. What happens then? He is ultra-motivated to quality for Code B. Code B represents ~ 1500 of the best Korean players on the ladder (which I believe is mid-high masters on the ladder). Once he finally reaches that plateau he can compete in the Code A qualifiers. He’s going to go to a huge LAN event and have a chance to play against players like Boxer and LosirA. How does that not motivate an individual? I might be playing Boxer next week. I’m going to fucking practice 24 hours a day until then. Once you’re at this level, you have a new goal. Now you want to be noticed by team coaches and players on ladder and maybe get yourself into a B-team house (like ProS). Hell, you might be good enough to skip a step and get straight into a proteam house. There are probably a hundred spots available and considering many players have multiple accounts, I’d venture to guess that anyone that is GM on the Korean ladder is skilled enough to belong in a team house. Now you’re playing in the big leagues. In the team house you’re practicing everyday and will keep going until you can finally beat MMA or DRG or whoever else is in your house.

What’s my point here? There are clear goals along the way. Motivation comes from having a goal. It’s impossible to motivate yourself without a goal. You know who succeeds when they want to lose weight? The guy that says I will lose 5 lbs in a month. Not the guy that says I’m going to lose a ton of weight brah (partially because the second guy sounds like an idiot).

Let’s look at the other end of the spectrum: the life of a foreigner. I work my way up the ladder. I’m masters now fuck yea. I’m going to post this on reddit and be 23rd on the front page of r/Starcraft for about an hour. Sweet. Now what? Might as well keep laddering and get to GM. Awesome I’m GM now. It took forever but I’ve finally done it. You know how much karma this is going to get me on reddit? A ton. I’ll be right at the top for half a day! This seems facetious but it is actual reality. A high masters/low GM player on the NA (and to a lesser extent EU) server have no way of getting noticed. They have no tangible goals. Koreans know exactly what they need to do to get into Code B. They have a very real opportunity to get into a team house once they get there. Foreigners on the other hand have nothing. They have no clear avenue to get into progaming. It’s too much of a crapshoot on the foreigner side. It’s way harder to get noticed and even if you do, it’s so hard to actually get onto a foreign team or into a major tournament.

Let’s put this into perspective. Imagine you’re a GM player on the NA server. You’re not on a pro team but you’re pretty good. How do you get noticed? Streaming doesn’t do anything. No one watches players they don’t know. You’d get 5 viewers. Even players like Vibe have trouble breaking a few hundred viewers despite the fact that his stream is of epic quality (tons of commentary, awesome player). Someone once described streaming as feast or famine (I feel like it was Huk or Tyler on SOTG a long time ago) and that is 100% true.

The other option is to try and qualify for some major events. Let’s look at the leagues. IPL3 held online qualifiers, but they were filled with Koreans. The Koreans won the majority of the spots. The same idea was true for the NASL qualifiers. This pretty much holds true for any major event that holds qualifiers. Here’s an example. Let’s take GoSu.Gatored. He is an outstanding player. At IEM NYC he beat DRG, Top and went pretty damn far. How far can he get in MLG? Nowhere. His highest placing was 33rd and I doubt he’s had many (if any) streamed matches. How’d he do in IPL3? Can’t qualify. He is exactly the type of player that should be getting a ton more recognition than he currently is. Unless a player gets noticed he doesn’t provide any value to a team. But it is nearly impossible, in the game’s current state, to get noticed. See the dilemma?

In my opinion, the state of the foreign scene is pretty bleak. Just take a long hard look at some of the tournament results. If you look at the foreign scene, it is the usual suspects in every event since release. The very first foreign SC2 tournament was IEM Cologne in 2010. Guess who the top 3 were? Morrow, IdrA and Dimaga. The entire player list is represents pretty much the top tier foreigner list to this date. But if you look at the Korean scene there are always new players popping up. There is much more turnover with new players developing, getting noticed and entering competitive. The motivation just isn’t there for foreigners because there is no clear way to get noticed. However there are ways to solve this though.

Let’s start with event organizers. I’m sorry but this invitation system needs to end. We can’t have 95% of the players being invited and 5% qualifying through qualifiers. It has to be the other way around. I get the need to invite a few big name players to attract viewers. But instead of inviting 30 players and qualifying 2, do the opposite and invite a handful and have qualifiers for the rest. Of course that doesn’t solve the problem itself. The qualifiers need to be region locked. A NA qualifier should be for NA residents only. The NA qualifiers shouldn’t be won by 4 different Koreans. That defeats the purpose. Organizers need to start doing region-locked qualifiers for all 3 regions. This is part of the reason I love ESL. They get it. They’re doing exactly this. ESL is the reason a guy like Gatored has been noticed. He is a beastly player and got to display that at IEM NYC. Also to their credit, MLG seems to be progressing in this direction for 2012. Yes qualifiers are more work. But to run an open qualifier online, it really doesn’t take that much work. You can set it up on z33k or playhem or binarybeast or whatever and let the system automate it. You only need to invest an afternoon to admin the event (maybe 2-3 people if you have hundreds of signups). Trust me, I’ve personally admined events with hundreds of people and all it takes is an afternoon (+ whatever time you want to spend advertising). Korean qualifiers are a little more difficult (language barrier, advertising in Korea). But hopefully more organizations can adopt the Asus ROG/Korean Weekly model.

Now what can the community do? Let’s stop focusing 100% of our attention on a few select players. There are tons of streamers that are as good as some of the popular guys. Let’s also start branching out and watching some other events. Yes I’m from z33k and playhem is my mortal enemy (sarcasm) but watching their dailies does give some ROI for teams with players competing. It does give you, the viewers, a chance to see some of the lesser known players that are almost, if not, as good as some of the current pros.

Anyways, that’s it for now. It’s 4 am and I’m going to get to bed. I’ll respond to as many people as I can when I wake up.


I wrote this at 4 am and I was dead tired. I'm wide awake now and want to add a few points.

First of HOTS. Yes, this will (hopefully) have a huge impact on the player pool and bring in some new blood. But this is a temporary fix to a systemic problem. For all we know it will have a very minimal impact. For all we know, players will come back, try all the new shiny toys and then say forget it I'm done with this. Basically the point is, the game itself doesn't seem to motivate, so we shouldn't rely on changes in it to fix the issues at hand.

Another thing I didn't mention, the coming of BW A-teamers. This has the potentially to seriously kill the foreigner scene. If the BW pros engrain themselves into SC2 like the current Korean progamers do (actively looking for foreign teams, participating in foreign events, trying to qualify for them) it marginalizes SC2 foreigners even more.
Arachne
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
South Africa426 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-25 09:57:45
January 25 2012 09:57 GMT
#2
Nice post. I think it has a lot of weight towards what is happening and what should be happening.
If I were a rich man, I wouldn't be here
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-25 09:58:38
January 25 2012 09:58 GMT
#3
On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:
The graph represents player numbers for each region since the games release (taken from sc2ranks). For those really curious, it’s divided by patch. Half a year ago, EU/NA had 3-4x as many players as the Korean server did; now all 3 servers are about equal. That’s astonishing when you think about it. The drop-off for Koreans is minimal compared to Foreigners. And there’s no reason this trend won’t continue.


http://xkcd.com/605/

That's a GIGANTIC fucking assumption you just made. Here's an alternative theory: Each region has around 100k really hardcore people. Casual fans are dropping off (which is why the leagues are getting more exclusive), and Korea just never really had a large casual SC2 scene.

Is that the correct theory? Dunno. It is equally as plausible as extrapolating? More so, since there's at least anecdotal evidence, which is slightly better than no evidence.
Snowbear
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1925 Posts
January 25 2012 09:58 GMT
#4
Really nice post. It worries me that the scene is shrinking so fast. I felt it too that the activity is dropping at a very fast rate.
501TFX
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria345 Posts
January 25 2012 10:00 GMT
#5
Isn't that a known fact that Foreigners are called to be lazy? (no motivation, no goals, etc).
I guess we need something we can play for, something as prestige as GSL ...
Never let your dreams fade, run after them, run until you get them !
Danyl
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada90 Posts
January 25 2012 10:00 GMT
#6
Good post, I agree that it is very difficult for foreign players to make a name for themselves. I'd also like to note that IPL4 seems to only offer 4 invited spots (through qualifiers) while the rest of the tournament comes from an open bracket. There'll probably be a nice chunk of koreans coming through there but it should also give a lot of foreign players a shot at recognition.
Taeja | ForGG | Jjakji
DarKcS
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1237 Posts
January 25 2012 10:03 GMT
#7
Make it so.
Die tomorrow - Live today
Omar91
Profile Joined April 2010
Angola620 Posts
January 25 2012 10:06 GMT
#8
I for one stop playing because TvP is so fucking retarded, Collosus-Chargelots-Storm-FF made me rage quit the game, I was high diamond.

User was temp banned for this post.
iKill
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Denmark861 Posts
January 25 2012 10:06 GMT
#9
Read the whole thing. I agree with everything you've lined out, but honestly, it feels like one of the better ways to fix it would be to have a standardized league for every region divided into classes (like GSL - the whole reason why, as you said, koreans know to get into Code B is because every high-tier player is up in Code A or Code S, so there's no chance IdrA or HuK will drop by and eliminate you for sport).

Other than that... Yeah. The reason GSL Code S has top level play is because they go on almost 100% qualification (sadly they've gone in the other direction with MLG seeds and foreign invites now). Invitationals turn into a popularity contest where you're competing with world stars in fan following to get in. I get that ESPORTS is a risky venture right now, and that sponsors want sure fire viewer attractions, but there need to be a mindset ready to take risks to grow this thing.

thepuppyassassin: "My god... the deathball's grown wings!"
Andreas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Norway214 Posts
January 25 2012 10:07 GMT
#10
It started off well but your conclusion is about as wrong as it can get. If you want to get noticed in the foreign community, play in the online tournaments that are held DAILY where you're more than likely to face off against players who already have a team. If you beat them, you get attention. If you don't, you get more motivation to get better.

I think the high drop in EU/NA server players is interesting, but I'd say it's mostly low league players and it doesn't really affect anyone with ambitions to go pro/get into GM.
Imbu
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States903 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-25 10:16:24
January 25 2012 10:08 GMT
#11
On January 25 2012 19:00 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote:
Isn't that a known fact that Foreigners are called to be lazy? (no motivation, no goals, etc).
I guess we need something we can play for, something as prestige as GSL ...


I feel like this is slightly besides the point that Foreigners are "known to be lazy". I believe Catz talks about this a lot, especially when the Koreans were considered to be given seeds from MLG at the beginning of the previous season. Korea has a system that is much better for a player to practice on. The advantage of a team house isn't just that one can live with other professionals and talk StarCraft all day, but rather they are given an artificial environment where everything else is taken care of for them. Many prohouses back in BW had a maid that would come in to clean the place up and also prepare a lunch/dinner for the team. Having a team house means one doesn't have to worry about anything besides improving at the game.

However, here outside of Korea, very few people are given the chance to have such a lifestyle. Take Spanishwa for example, an prominent American zerg. He isn't given the chance to practice 24 hours of day, there are large portions of his day that are dedicated to college and all the work that entails. In other words, it isn't that he is being lazy, its that he has other commitments that he has to also consider while being a progamer.

Having prestigious tournaments isn't going to fix the problem, what needs to change is that the foreigner professionals need to be given an opportunity to have the same environment as many of the Koreans.


On January 25 2012 19:07 Andreas wrote:
It started off well but your conclusion is about as wrong as it can get. If you want to get noticed in the foreign community, play in the online tournaments that are held DAILY where you're more than likely to face off against players who already have a team. If you beat them, you get attention. If you don't, you get more motivation to get better.

I think the high drop in EU/NA server players is interesting, but I'd say it's mostly low league players and it doesn't really affect anyone with ambitions to go pro/get into GM.



I question this slightly that by participating in the daily playhems you can get noticed. Whenver the playhems are going on, I take a look at the viewers on all the streams, and very few people are actually watching the players that are not already known. For example, Floorboard/Ruxin is top 50 American GM who streams with commentary and such, yet he only get around 50 viewers at most. He has taken out people and placing respectably in multiple runs playhems, and yet that isn't enough for people to "notice" him.
@DreamingBird
Soma.bokforlag
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden448 Posts
January 25 2012 10:09 GMT
#12
am i doing something wrong or is the graph in the first post wrong?

according to these numbers

http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all

theres still many many more players in america and europe compared to korea
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-25 10:11:05
January 25 2012 10:10 GMT
#13
There's also another big difference between pro in Korea and NA.

Teams in NA pick up players only if they can get the viewers (stated by incontrol).

Teams in Korea pick up players if they are good or have potential

Its sad
HiSi
Profile Joined October 2011
United States68 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-25 10:13:32
January 25 2012 10:11 GMT
#14
The player base is decreasing, but the two new expansions in the future could provide player base bumps. We could be looking at a situation where we have a lot of players who previously tried WoL or BW are willing to give another try to the new shiny game HoS, Furthermore the foreign scene is just starting to really pick up momentum. Domestic team houses have been formed in the United States, Poland, and France among other nations. I feel with the new expansions bumping up numbers, and the hard working and passionate indivudals in the community the foreign scene hopefully wont have a very stark future.

Darksoldierr
Profile Joined May 2010
Hungary2012 Posts
January 25 2012 10:12 GMT
#15
On January 25 2012 19:06 Omar91 wrote:
I for one stop playing because TvP is so fucking retarded, Collosus-Chargelots-Storm-FF made me rage quit the game, I was high diamond.


Watch out, we got a badass over here

User was temp banned for this post.
What do humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.
aebriol
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway2066 Posts
January 25 2012 10:13 GMT
#16
The goal for foreigners is the daily cups.

If I was 15 years younger (at least), my goal would be:
- Bronze -> Masters.
- Low masters to high masters (say top 500 in masters league in my region according to SC2Ranks).
- High masters -> Daily cups tournaments etc while ...
- Getting into GM
- Participate in MLG if you are american, qualifiers for dreamhack, assembly, whatever, if you are not (I am not 100% sure).
- Get into a team that promise you a chance to train in Korea if that is your goal.

You can make a fair amount of money participating in daily cups I think. And if you make enough, and get known, you will get invited to local (relatively) tournaments.

An example: Nerchio.

Is it better to be Korean? Absolutely! But there's a clear and easy way to progress for foreigners too.

Soma.bokforlag
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden448 Posts
January 25 2012 10:15 GMT
#17
On January 25 2012 19:09 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
am i doing something wrong or is the graph in the first post wrong?

according to these numbers

http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all

theres still many many more players in america and europe compared to korea


can someone help me with this? everywhere i look at sc2ranks america and europe has vastly higher numbers than korea..
Zaphid
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1860 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-25 10:22:19
January 25 2012 10:16 GMT
#18
Your nick fits really well

IEM does what you say to certain extent and there are 1-2 players that get noticed at every event. You also disregard the effect expansions will have on the game. It's not as bad as you make it out to be.
I will never ever play Mech against Protoss. - MVP
xrapture
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1644 Posts
January 25 2012 10:16 GMT
#19
Sc2 is just too hard. Why play SC2 when there is a myriad of easy games. New players play for a little and are put off. There's really no reason to play a game with such a steep learning curve and most players in the foreign scene probably don't know that pro SC players exist.

I see the trend continuing. Even myself, a master's player, have found myself thinking, "eh fuck it. I'll just play MW3 or Skyrim isntead-- SC is too stressful." Video games are for entertainment, not stress.
Everyone is either delusional, a nihlilst, or dead from suicide.
red4ce
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States7313 Posts
January 25 2012 10:17 GMT
#20
Wow I didn't know the foreign player base was shrinking so fast.Hopefully HoTS brings most of these people back. Honestly though I don't think the casual player base has much of an effect on the proscene. Even back when SC2 was more popular, almost all of our top pros came from Brood War or WC3. If you compare the Korean under-18 team vs the foreigner under-18 team, both of which consist mainly of players new to progaming, the gap looks as big as it was in Brood War.
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