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On January 25 2012 20:59 Ewic wrote:
@ dapierow & NightOfTheDead - I'm echoing what the OP is saying - tournaments are being won by the same people over and over again and there is little room for up-and-coming players to be noticed or win anything. I think you would understand when you devote as much time into this game I have and haven't received $1 for it.
if that's how you feel, then maybe SC2 isn't for you.
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On January 25 2012 21:12 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 21:09 Aela wrote:
All people I know stopped playing. There is just no reason to ladder if you know you will never make money with it. Whenever someone posts something like this it just makes me sad. The reason people play is to have fun, goddamn.
Quite Fucking True.
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On January 25 2012 19:36 Velr wrote:
The problem is that SC2 is boring and not half as exciting as SC/BW or WC3 where even when "fresh".
No wonder people stop playing.
You would be banned in 3 seconds if you say something like BW is not half as exciting as SC2 on a BW forum. I am fucking tired of people like you.
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On January 25 2012 21:08 dapierow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 20:59 Ewic wrote:
@ dapierow & NightOfTheDead - I'm echoing what the OP is saying - tournaments are being won by the same people over and over again and there is little room for up-and-coming players to be noticed or win anything. I think you would understand when you devote as much time into this game I have and haven't received $1 for it. I'm sorry but that is an absurd statement... imagine your a pretty good basketball or football player and you tell someone Ive devoted so much time into this game and I haven't received $1 for it.
I would not say your analogy is accurate to the situation I'm in. You can't really compare e-sports to other industries like that. I am not looking to argue with anyone on this... I just wanted to share my views on the matter of the foreigner dilemma, have a nice day.
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On January 25 2012 21:15 Ewic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 21:08 dapierow wrote:On January 25 2012 20:59 Ewic wrote:
@ dapierow & NightOfTheDead - I'm echoing what the OP is saying - tournaments are being won by the same people over and over again and there is little room for up-and-coming players to be noticed or win anything. I think you would understand when you devote as much time into this game I have and haven't received $1 for it. I'm sorry but that is an absurd statement... imagine your a pretty good basketball or football player and you tell someone Ive devoted so much time into this game and I haven't received $1 for it. I would not say your analogy is accurate to the situation I'm in. You can't really compare e-sports to other industries like that. I am not looking to argue with anyone on this... I just wanted to share my views on the matter of the foreigner dilemma, have a nice day.
Well i can understand perfectly what u meant. Just in sense of "sports", artificial barriers are kinda not the way to go, even if that make foreigner scene decline. The fact that most foreigners need to make money to play the game, is the fact that eSports won't be as big in western world as in Korea, in terms of competition.
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On January 25 2012 20:59 Ewic wrote:
@ dapierow & NightOfTheDead - I'm echoing what the OP is saying - tournaments are being won by the same people over and over again and there is little room for up-and-coming players to be noticed or win anything. I think you would understand when you devote as much time into this game I have and haven't received $1 for it.
You will get noticed if you hit the skilllevel to beat those koreans. I think this is very important. If someone puts the effort in this like you do (as you say) you will get acknowleged when you beat those koreans. What I understand what you wanna say:
"I put so much time in this game to improve - now give me my money". Im sorry but this isnt how it works. You hit GM and you get deep in tournaments. If you keep working you will get your wins in tournaments. You will win some cups and get acknowleged by a low-mid tier team. They will pick you up and you keep training. Then you will win a qualifier for a big tournament and you ppl will take note of you.
Only because you are GM and you put a lot of work in SC2 it doesnt gurantee you money. Just think about it: there is a GM in Korea, EU, NA, China and most of them are your skilllevel of above yours. Thats 800 ppl. If you consider that GM is packed and a lot of ppl dont get even when they are skilled enough +korea you will have like 1000+ players. You cant support all these ppl by SC2 because it aint big enough. and of those 1k ppl only 1 guy will win the tournament after all. What I want to say: keep improving and dedicate all your time and you can become a progamer. I dont find the quote of the korean BW pro who said that he doesnt want ppl to think that becoming a progamer is easy and fulfilling. its hardwork and more. You have to be really lucky and dedicate every time you have. Im sorry
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On January 25 2012 21:15 Ewic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 21:08 dapierow wrote:On January 25 2012 20:59 Ewic wrote:
@ dapierow & NightOfTheDead - I'm echoing what the OP is saying - tournaments are being won by the same people over and over again and there is little room for up-and-coming players to be noticed or win anything. I think you would understand when you devote as much time into this game I have and haven't received $1 for it. I'm sorry but that is an absurd statement... imagine your a pretty good basketball or football player and you tell someone Ive devoted so much time into this game and I haven't received $1 for it. I would not say your analogy is accurate to the situation I'm in. You can't really compare e-sports to other industries like that. I am not looking to argue with anyone on this... I just wanted to share my views on the matter of the foreigner dilemma, have a nice day.
Ok, I hope you get that 3rd place in a daily one day and change your statement to received 10$(14$ if weekend) for all the time you devoted into the game.
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this article is pretty stupid
its actually the other way around.
koreans have a really hard time getting noticed even when they become gosu. there are hundreds of korean gosus but we really just notice and keep an eye on about 10% of them.
how many foreigner gosus are there? doesnt matter we keep an eye on 100% of them, we even follow players that arent gosus but are "pretty good for foreigner".
they have to practice like crazy, to one day qualify for code a (takes from 1 month to 1 year lol) and then hopefully get noticed.
foreigners get to GM in and sign up for weekly cups, after a while he starts getting noticed because he gets like top8 in weekly cups.
the amount of work you have to do, the cheer skill you need as a korean to get noticed is alot higher than for foreigners. because these up and coming foreigners doesnt have to climb up as high in skill to start winning tournaments.
so its easier in a few ways:
1: you dont need as much skill to win weeklys
2: there are tournaments everywhere you can play in the foreigner scene
3: you get noticed much more easily because foreigner scene obviously follows the foreigner scene more
the reason why theres more koreans on the top, why foreigner teams are recruiting more koreans etc is because they are better and the teams want them to win.
i dont know the reason why theres few foreigner progamers or few up and coming. but im 110% sure its not because its too hard to get noticed. its really really easy and anyone could do it that knows what hard work and dedication means.
take nerchio as an example. he was a noname that practiced hard, became a top foreigner in skill, won a shitton of weekly cups and the he started to get invited to tournaments. and now hes famous and skilled enough to get to lans like homestory cup.
if you know how it works on both sides and u put them up together, you soon realize that its alot easier for foreigners to get famous, money and invites to tournamnets
and on a sidenote. the graph you pulled up is the amount of players on the server, that has nothing to do with the amount of players that is trying to become progamers and famous
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I agree especially with that these invitational tournaments, I think they deffinetly need to stop.
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I think a great idea would be a foreign starleague. They have one in broodwar occasionally because of the huge skill difference between koreans and foreigners.
I for one would love to see a non-korean only major tournament where I can see my favourite foreign players battling it out in the final rounds (I don't think I'm racist but I just find it harder to connect with korean pros). Another reason why I enjoyed shoutcraft so much
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I think you are extrapolating too much.
There is a flaw in your assumptions re growth and the conditions of decline.
But you have a material though, I think you can write something better with it.
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Funny how the OP posts about goals and this ad comes up
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mp4Ue.jpg)
This problem has a simple solution, albeit not an easy task. What the people who are opting to b pros can do is focus on gaining popularity. Offering something that can be entertaining enough that stream viewers will watch them. Destiny is a good example.
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On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:
In my opinion, the state of the foreign scene is pretty bleak. Just take a long hard look at some of the tournament results. If you look at the foreign scene, it is the usual suspects in every event since release. The very first foreign SC2 tournament was IEM Cologne in 2010. Guess who the top 3 were? Morrow, IdrA and Dimaga. The entire player list is represents pretty much the top tier foreigner list to this date. But if you look at the Korean scene there are always new players popping up. There is much more turnover with new players developing, getting noticed and entering competitive. The motivation just isn’t there for foreigners because there is no clear way to get noticed. However there are ways to solve this though.
Let’s start with event organizers. I’m sorry but this invitation system needs to end. We can’t have 95% of the players being invited and 5% qualifying through qualifiers. It has to be the other way around. I get the need to invite a few big name players to attract viewers. But instead of inviting 30 players and qualifying 2, do the opposite and invite a handful and have qualifiers for the rest. Of course that doesn’t solve the problem itself. The qualifiers need to be region locked. A NA qualifier should be for NA residents only. The NA qualifiers shouldn’t be won by 4 different Koreans. That defeats the purpose. Organizers need to start doing region-locked qualifiers for all 3 regions. This is part of the reason I love ESL. They get it. They’re doing exactly this. ESL is the reason a guy like Gatored has been noticed. He is a beastly player and got to display that at IEM NYC. Also to their credit, MLG seems to be progressing in this direction for 2012. Yes qualifiers are more work. But to run an open qualifier online, it really doesn’t take that much work. You can set it up on z33k or playhem or binarybeast or whatever and let the system automate it. You only need to invest an afternoon to admin the event (maybe 2-3 people if you have hundreds of signups). Trust me, I’ve personally admined events with hundreds of people and all it takes is an afternoon (+ whatever time you want to spend advertising). Korean qualifiers are a little more difficult (language barrier, advertising in Korea). But hopefully more organizations can adopt the Asus ROG/Korean Weekly model.
Now what can the community do? Let’s stop focusing 100% of our attention on a few select players. There are tons of streamers that are as good as some of the popular guys. Let’s also start branching out and watching some other events. Yes I’m from z33k and playhem is my mortal enemy (sarcasm) but watching their dailies does give some ROI for teams with players competing. It does give you, the viewers, a chance to see some of the lesser known players that are almost, if not, as good as some of the current pros.
Anyways, that’s it for now. It’s 4 am and I’m going to get to bed. I’ll respond to as many people as I can when I wake up.
I don't think it's the invitational system that hampers the foreign tournament scene as much as the difficulty of making it to live events. Not everyone has the time/money to fly out to LAN events. Unless you're sponsored or have free time it's not an option. Online cups/Tournaments on the other hand are an excellent avenue for an upcoming pro to gain recognition, but online tournament results in general are shrugged off in the face of the LAN events- which very, very few if ANY unknowns break out. Stephano tore the ladder and online tournaments apart for so long before he was finally recognized as one of the best zergs in the world, and there are MANY more like him.
Compare it to Korea where it's much more centralized and easier for players to make it out to GSL qualifiers. This will ALWAYS be an issue to the foreign scene until transportation becomes faster/cheaper, or online tournaments are taken more seriously. I think a GSL-esque style star league is needed in America. NASL almost cuts it, but with much few players, no ranking tiers and only a couple seasons per year it doesn't compare to GSL in what it does for Korea as described by OP.
Oh and lastly, I don't think koreans should be discluded from qualifiers in major tournaments, or even locked to their own region. The Koreans who break out in the Korean scene are much beyond the skill level of foreigners, and it's much easier to get onto a team. I don't think foreigners breaking out who can only take games off of other foreigner pros and then get brushed aside by ANY Korean deserve even the most remote of recognition. NA's standards for top tier players really needs to be kicked up a notch, though it all falls back to the regional differences in skill level, and ultimately, how much more compact Korea is compared to NA.
On January 25 2012 21:23 ThePianoDentist wrote:
I think a great idea would be a foreign starleague. They have one in broodwar occasionally because of the huge skill difference between koreans and foreigners.
I for one would love to see a non-korean only major tournament where I can see my favourite foreign players battling it out in the final rounds (I don't think I'm racist but I just find it harder to connect with korean pros). Another reason why I enjoyed shoutcraft so much
This might help bring more foreigners into the scene, but it certainly won't close the skill gap between Korea and foreigners, which is one of the major reasons why the foreign scene suffers. And in the end, who is really going to care about unknown foreigners breaking out but not standing the slightest of chances against the bottom threshold of koreans. It'd basically create a bubble in NA as it did in BW.
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Am I the only one who doesn't think the playerbase will go up that much again after the expansions are released? Some people will of course try it out, people that may still be watching pro games but are bored of playing WoL themselfs. But the masses are gone for good. They are those people with little to no RTS experience and got into sc2 because of the hype at release and competitive RTS that makes you feel like shit and makes you work hard to improve wasn't their cup of tea. I don't think that many people with no sc2 experience at all will look at HotS and be like "wow that game looks awesome" and then buy WoL and HotS to play, same goes for LotV. Ok maybe for singleplayer but I doubt for multiplayer.
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Here is the main issue: We need new blood in the scene, else our numbers will slowly dwindle away.
Currently, we have corporations that act like leeches and want to suck the money out of eSports. Of course some will argue that they have also done good to increase the size of StarCraft. Yes it is true, but this was not altruism, but plain business strategy.
These corporations only raise popular individuals to the top, which makes it nigh impossible for promising players to rise and results in a crippling stagnation. This is not only true for the player scene but also for the casters and tournaments.
So here is what we need to do and can be done:
1. Establish an independent controlling organization which is accepted by every corporation in the game. This organization needs to handle player transfers, licenses, tournaments and to some extent public relations. Corporations will have to reduce their sphere of influence, which they won't.
2. Provide chances for up and coming players by offering a professional environment. Why don't the top clans establish a squad of players with promising skill? This keeps good players close to their organisation.
3. Build storylines around the players. Be more personal. Don't make a tournament every month with 200 players. Split them into professional organized amateur tournaments, where unknown players can get a dark horse spot but also provide a more stable environment for the best of the best.
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On January 25 2012 21:15 Ewic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 21:08 dapierow wrote:On January 25 2012 20:59 Ewic wrote:
@ dapierow & NightOfTheDead - I'm echoing what the OP is saying - tournaments are being won by the same people over and over again and there is little room for up-and-coming players to be noticed or win anything. I think you would understand when you devote as much time into this game I have and haven't received $1 for it. I'm sorry but that is an absurd statement... imagine your a pretty good basketball or football player and you tell someone Ive devoted so much time into this game and I haven't received $1 for it. I would not say your analogy is accurate to the situation I'm in. You can't really compare e-sports to other industries like that. I am not looking to argue with anyone on this... I just wanted to share my views on the matter of the foreigner dilemma, have a nice day.
I don't mean to be rude but I don't think OP's suggestion would help you. If we had region locked qualifiers for all big tournaments it wouldn't get you any money. Those spots would be won by the very best players in each region (huk, idra, white-ra etc). If you're an up and coming player your only shot is daily cups, which there are plenty of. There's still good players competing in them but if you can't win them your simply not good enough. If you manage to win these tournaments you will gain some recognition and can move on to qualifying to the big tournaments if you get good enough. It would be ridiculous if everyone who played this game a lot was entitled to money. I understand your frustration though, but don't see how it could be any other way.
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Mostly Koreans and a very few Europeans managed to stay at the top of WC3 towards the final years, in fact most of the Western/European teams actively went after Korean players to sign. It's not a matter of talent pool, but just a community of efficient learning and training that the US especially lacks compared to Europe and Korea. It's not bad now of course since the game is only 2 years old, but the fact that every big Western team are signing Koreans left and right is a cause of concern for those people that want to see more American players succeed.
The only way to do so is to encourage homegrown talent tournaments and more training houses in the USA itself. The fact that many top players all rather play on the European and Korean server for better practice doesn't help.
This problem will get worst a few years after the final expansion is released, interest and motivation will always go up once a expansion comes out, the problem is continuous nurturing of talented players in the US scene especially.
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On January 25 2012 21:28 sharky246 wrote:Funny how the OP posts about goals and this ad comes up This problem has a simple solution, albeit not an easy task. What the people who are opting to b pros can do is focus on gaining popularity. Offering something that can be entertaining enough that stream viewers will watch them. Destiny is a good example.
Entertainment is good and fine but I think it has come to a point where SC2 is more about entertainment than skill in the foreigner scene - which hurts us in the long run. One reason why Destiny is quite popular is, that he provides more personal information and presence than other players.
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I disagree, there is a reason Koreans are winning and it's not because of their nationality. I LOVE invitationals that have Koreans, because I know no matter who you invite, whether its MMA, the infamous son of BoxeR ,or theSTC, not as known but amazing as fuck, the games will be top-tier.
MorroW is absolutely correct on the point that we always seem to cheer for the foreigner even if they are weak, which is fine, but we shouldn't cater a tournament in favor of foreigners because we believe Koreans = insta-doom.
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So, does the definition on "outstanding" or "beat" depend on the region of the subject on whom you want to use the adjective?
Personally, I don't like region locked qualifiers. I want to see the best possible games that can be, and if a player achieved a level of play necessary to show such a brilliant game, I applaud him for reaching that level.
I agree though, less invites, more qualifiers. That makes it easier for new players to breakthrough.
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EPT
