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On January 25 2012 21:58 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 21:53 Qaatar wrote:On January 25 2012 21:42 BrosephBrostar wrote:
This is entirely the result of the attitude held by non-Korean teams and the community in general. Teams and fans aren't interested in rookies, or B-teamers, or practice partners. The only thing they care about is star power, so of course there's no progression open for new players.
Ironic... Like Morrow said above you, this kind of "star-gazing" attitude is actually even MORE problematic in Korea. Listen to Hwanni's interview with JP - he says all anyone in Korea cares about is a good game with a famous guy playing. That's the biggest reason why SC2 is so small in Korea right now, and why only the hardcore guys play it. The casuals don't give a shit about MMA or MVP. That may be the case as far as perception goes, but the practice is completely the opposite. In Korea you can work your way onto a team just by being the guy who 4gates MMA for 6 hours straight until he works a build out. Do you really think a team like EG would even consider paying a guy just to help Idra practice getting bunker rushed?
No, but Slayers also isn't paying the fresh newbie to 4gate MMA all day long either. I'm assuming what you mean is, at least Slayers is giving the guy a chance to 'potentially' become a paid member of the team, while EG isn't. In that case, I agree, but I think this is also a warped and secluded perspective.
How many of these "new gosus" popping out from the Korean scene are actually "new gosus?" Guys like Brown and Parting, sure, we might not have heard of them before, but they've been playing SC2 since the GSL Open Seasons. None of these guys bursting onto the scene are actually new. Almost all of these guys have been around since the beginning. I don't think the Korean scene is growing any more than the foreign scene.
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United States5162 Posts
On January 25 2012 21:55 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 21:50 Myles wrote:On January 25 2012 21:47 Duravi wrote:On January 25 2012 21:22 MorroW wrote:
this article is pretty stupid
its actually the other way around.
koreans have a really hard time getting noticed even when they become gosu. there are hundreds of korean gosus but we really just notice and keep an eye on about 10% of them.
how many foreigner gosus are there? doesnt matter we keep an eye on 100% of them, we even follow players that arent gosus but are "pretty good for foreigner".
they have to practice like crazy, to one day qualify for code a (takes from 1 month to 1 year lol) and then hopefully get noticed.
foreigners get to GM in and sign up for weekly cups, after a while he starts getting noticed because he gets like top8 in weekly cups.
the amount of work you have to do, the cheer skill you need as a korean to get noticed is alot higher than for foreigners. because these up and coming foreigners doesnt have to climb up as high in skill to start winning tournaments.
so its easier in a few ways:
1: you dont need as much skill to win weeklys
2: there are tournaments everywhere you can play in the foreigner scene
3: you get noticed much more easily because foreigner scene obviously follows the foreigner scene more
the reason why theres more koreans on the top, why foreigner teams are recruiting more koreans etc is because they are better and the teams want them to win.
i dont know the reason why theres few foreigner progamers or few up and coming. but im 110% sure its not because its too hard to get noticed. its really really easy and anyone could do it that knows what hard work and dedication means.
take nerchio as an example. he was a noname that practiced hard, became a top foreigner in skill, won a shitton of weekly cups and the he started to get invited to tournaments. and now hes famous and skilled enough to get to lans like homestory cup.
if you know how it works on both sides and u put them up together, you soon realize that its alot easier for foreigners to get famous, money and invites to tournamnets
and on a sidenote. the graph you pulled up is the amount of players on the server, that has nothing to do with the amount of players that is trying to become progamers and famous I agree with most of what you said, but don't you think it is bad that there is such a large emphasis on personality and viewership relative to results in the west? This just goes to prove your point about foreigners having it easier, but I think it is a pathetic state of the community when more people know right now who Incontrol is than Jjakji. It's about entertainment, of which being good is only a portion of. And it's not just relegated to esports. Tim Duncan is one of the greatest, maybe even the greatest, power forwards the NBA has ever seen. His star power is hardly top 15. Right, but at the end of the day even the most entertaining players have to perform well. The NFL is not going to resign a player who has been awful all season because he brings lots of attention to the team. In SC2 we have several western players who have had very poor results going on a year now but are still with the same team purely because of the viewers they draw. I think it is fundamentally wrong for the focus of s sport to be on entertainment over competition, you may as well go watch WWE in that case where it is no competition, all entertainment, and is not recognized as a sport.
Professional sports value winning more then esports organizations do because it already has a large viewer base that will pay attention if you win. Esports isn't there yet. They need players who draw attention to the team even if they aren't top caliber. Incontrol is a great example - he hasn't brought in results for a while, but I guarantee that he brings a huge return on investment to EG.
And trying to separate sports and entertainment is foolhardy imo. Entertainment, whether through competition or creation, is still providing the same service.
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On January 25 2012 21:22 MorroW wrote:
this article is pretty stupid
its actually the other way around.
koreans have a really hard time getting noticed even when they become gosu. there are hundreds of korean gosus but we really just notice and keep an eye on about 10% of them.
how many foreigner gosus are there? doesnt matter we keep an eye on 100% of them, we even follow players that arent gosus but are "pretty good for foreigner".
they have to practice like crazy, to one day qualify for code a (takes from 1 month to 1 year lol) and then hopefully get noticed.
foreigners get to GM in and sign up for weekly cups, after a while he starts getting noticed because he gets like top8 in weekly cups.
the amount of work you have to do, the cheer skill you need as a korean to get noticed is alot higher than for foreigners. because these up and coming foreigners doesnt have to climb up as high in skill to start winning tournaments.
so its easier in a few ways:
1: you dont need as much skill to win weeklys
2: there are tournaments everywhere you can play in the foreigner scene
3: you get noticed much more easily because foreigner scene obviously follows the foreigner scene more
the reason why theres more koreans on the top, why foreigner teams are recruiting more koreans etc is because they are better and the teams want them to win.
i dont know the reason why theres few foreigner progamers or few up and coming. but im 110% sure its not because its too hard to get noticed. its really really easy and anyone could do it that knows what hard work and dedication means.
take nerchio as an example. he was a noname that practiced hard, became a top foreigner in skill, won a shitton of weekly cups and the he started to get invited to tournaments. and now hes famous and skilled enough to get to lans like homestory cup.
if you know how it works on both sides and u put them up together, you soon realize that its alot easier for foreigners to get famous, money and invites to tournamnets
and on a sidenote. the graph you pulled up is the amount of players on the server, that has nothing to do with the amount of players that is trying to become progamers and famous
I was exactly going to post something like this. Agree 100%.
It's not that hard to get famous at all.
And getting noticed isn't hard. So yes ur points is legit
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I might not know much about the scene.. But MLG (for NA) and ESL(for EU) should implement a program similar what Code B is..I think this is the only way to cultivate and motivate new talent on NA and EU. Any thoughts!
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people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies.
you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team.
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On January 25 2012 21:23 ThePianoDentist wrote:
I think a great idea would be a foreign starleague. They have one in broodwar occasionally because of the huge skill difference between koreans and foreigners.
I for one would love to see a non-korean only major tournament where I can see my favourite foreign players battling it out in the final rounds (I don't think I'm racist but I just find it harder to connect with korean pros). Another reason why I enjoyed shoutcraft so much
I can't wait for ISL3 or even something I dreamt long ago.....TSL4 with a BW division....!!
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On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote:
people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies.
you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team.
That's the problem the OP wants to highlight. The infrastructure to get good in NA is not as good in Korea, and this creates a selection bias. There aren't too many 15+ year olds in NA that can just turn their life into full time gaming, unless they already have a lot of money or a very supportive family. The concept of B-teams here doesn't really exist.
I mean if we look at the top level pros on the scene today that support themselves only with SC2, a lot of them are there because they had the first mover advantage (HuK) or had the chance to develop before (you). This is made worse by the fact that a lot of tournaments are mostly invite-based.
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On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote:
people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies.
you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team.
Think of the difference in skill between effort and the worst B-teamer you can remember. Do you really think EG would go out of their way to hire someone that far below yourself?
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On January 25 2012 22:39 -ForeverAlone- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote:
people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies.
you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. That's the problem the OP wants to highlight. The infrastructure to get good in NA is not as good in Korea, and this creates a selection bias. There aren't too many 15+ year olds in NA that can just turn their life into full time gaming, unless they already have a lot of money or a very supportive family. The concept of B-teams here doesn't really exist. I mean if we look at the top level pros on the scene today that support themselves only with SC2, a lot of them are there because they had the first mover advantage (HuK) or had the chance to develop before (you). This is made worse by the fact that a lot of tournaments are mostly invite-based.
The problem is that infrastructure to get good in the west will never "be there" en mass. Sure there will be cases where NA or EU player gets really good, goes to Korea etc.etc. competes at highest level. But cattering whole Esports system to suit the needs of sub-par competetion wont get the viewership, which is kinda the fuel of the scene.
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On January 25 2012 22:39 -ForeverAlone- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote:
people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies.
you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. That's the problem the OP wants to highlight. The infrastructure to get good in NA is not as good in Korea, and this creates a selection bias. There aren't too many 15+ year olds in NA that can just turn their life into full time gaming, unless they already have a lot of money or a very supportive family. The concept of B-teams here doesn't really exist. I mean if we look at the top level pros on the scene today that support themselves only with SC2, a lot of them are there because they had the first mover advantage (HuK) or had the chance to develop before (you). This is made worse by the fact that a lot of tournaments are mostly invite-based.
I agree with him, at least partially.
Entering in an already developed scene is hard by itself and no one is Stephano, but there are players who, while not being on Stephano's level, are perfectly able to compete with other proplayers.
Sometimes there are players who are good but don't get the chance of exposition because of the invites: there are 'pro'players who had more than a year to train, learn and practice.
In a proper environment.
While being payed to do that.
Some have a big proplayer house full of goodies, some had stayed in korea, all of them have good teammates to practice with.
Yet, 0 results.
Not everyone can be the best in a category and not everyone can even stay in the mid tier.
These guys had their chances and blew them up.
That's fine, but why should people give them another chance for the tenth time instead of trying someone who could be more worth?
Make some more qualifiers seeds, instead of inviting the same old guys.
Since Idra posted here: do you think you wouldn't be able to grab a qualifier spot if said qualifier was done correctly (delayed casting, no observer if not called, no bullshit bo1)?
I think not.
i think that a good proplayer wouldn't miss a qualifier the 90% of the times.
Protecting a scene that did not bring any result will not be of help.
One day those guys will quit their career and you'll realise what they leave to us: some laughs, some lolol epic moments XD, some funny attics, nothing else.
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On January 25 2012 22:39 -ForeverAlone- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote:
people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies.
you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. That's the problem the OP wants to highlight. The infrastructure to get good in NA is not as good in Korea, and this creates a selection bias. There aren't too many 15+ year olds in NA that can just turn their life into full time gaming, unless they already have a lot of money or a very supportive family. The concept of B-teams here doesn't really exist. I mean if we look at the top level pros on the scene today that support themselves only with SC2, a lot of them are there because they had the first mover advantage (HuK) or had the chance to develop before (you). This is made worse by the fact that a lot of tournaments are mostly invite-based.
I just pretty much 100% disagree. There are a ton of online tournaments like craftcup where you can compete. You can make yourself a name without moving anywhere. Who says you have to join EG, Liquid or any of the major teams first? There are smaller pro teams that get less attention of whom I'm willing to believe that they would pick up lesser known talents.
Infrastructure not as good.. seriously? On the one hand people complain about SC2 being too easy, certain races being a-move and win - and then there's people complaining they can't get good without playing it fulltime. Would the community please make up its mind? Is SC2 hard or is it easy?
Regarding infrastructure, the situation in BW wasn't exactly ideal either. People are spoiled by the SC2 situation and expect investing a minimal amount of time to get picked up by pro teams or what? If you want to become pro at something, you spend all your spare time for it.
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On January 25 2012 22:51 NightOfTheDead wrote:
The problem is that infrastructure to get good in the west will never "be there" en mass. Sure there will be cases where NA or EU player gets really good, goes to Korea etc.etc. competes at highest level. But cattering whole Esports system to suit the needs of sub-par competetion wont get the viewership, which is kinda the fuel to the scene.
Well, we can hope it gets there eventually. Maybe a solution would be to develop a B-team style house in North America, with players paying a part of their stream/tournament winnings in order to live there?
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On January 25 2012 22:39 -ForeverAlone- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote:
people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies.
you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. That's the problem the OP wants to highlight. The infrastructure to get good in NA is not as good in Korea, and this creates a selection bias. There aren't too many 15+ year olds in NA that can just turn their life into full time gaming, unless they already have a lot of money or a very supportive family. The concept of B-teams here doesn't really exist. I mean if we look at the top level pros on the scene today that support themselves only with SC2, a lot of them are there because they had the first mover advantage (HuK) or had the chance to develop before (you). This is made worse by the fact that a lot of tournaments are mostly invite-based.
how do you think i got that chance to develop? i ignored school and didnt have a social life for 2 years in order to win a tournament and move to korea at 18 to sit in a house and play starcraft1 with 0 return for another 3 years
huk played sc2 all day on a shitty computer during the beta when there was no money in it and did everything he could to get to korea and then spent a year+ practicing in a korean house.
most a team pros dont make salaries in korea. none of the b teamers do, the bottom of the barrel doesnt get to live in the house, they just get the priviledge of playing with the team if theyre good enough for people to want to practice with them. you have to sacrifice pretty much everything while you're on your way up. koreans are better because hundreds of them are willing to do it, a handful of nonkoreans are.
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EU and probably NA both have support from going from good to pro, Many people make their hype. Stephano started winning weekly cups consistently and built a lot of hype that way.
You do not need to be on a top team to reach high tournament placings. Getting top level practice partners is not about which team you are on. No scene has a possibility to go from 0 to hero just because they support players better. It is up to the players to commit hard. Flash didn´t get his first title by support he got it from sleeping a lot less.
Also it makes perfect sense that the EU and NA servers are declining but its will probably stabilize soon. It is natural for this to happen to any game.
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On January 25 2012 21:12 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 21:09 Aela wrote:
All people I know stopped playing. There is just no reason to ladder if you know you will never make money with it. Whenever someone posts something like this it just makes me sad. The reason people play is to have fun, goddamn.
If you played like 500 laddergames, there is not that much fun - especially if you aren't masters+++ Yeah, like 3games a week can be fun, but more is just not that fun as casual.
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On January 25 2012 20:53 slmw wrote:I took the same data from each three servers, added dates from patches and this is what i got: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tvXq4.png) What did we do differently? Here's the data: + Show Spoiler +
You ended yours on 20th October 2011.
I would assume the OP took the most recent figures as being the "current" figures.
SC2Ranks doesnt go through all profiles all the time, and if people play at the tail end of a season they aren't counted until they play.
The total player numbers per season is cumulative over the life of a season, so 1 week after new seasonthere are a lot fewer players than 2 weeks after a season, so the most recent season will always be below its final peak right until the very last day of the season.
This means that taking data by patch can result in peaks and troughs that aren't reflecting the true numbers of players.
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On January 25 2012 22:48 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote:
people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies.
you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. Think of the difference in skill between effort and the worst B-teamer you can remember. Do you really think EG would go out of their way to hire someone that far below yourself?
they didnt hire them. most of the time that person stopped going to school and paid to live in a practice house. if he did well enough there the owners of the practice house would take him to a group tryout where he got a handful of games to impress the cj coaches. if he managed to do that he'd be allowed to became an online practice partner or if he did really, really fuckin well he could live in the house for free.
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On January 25 2012 22:54 zdfgucker wrote:
I just pretty much 100% disagree. There are a ton of online tournaments like craftcup where you can compete. You can make yourself a name without moving anywhere. Who says you have to join EG, Liquid or any of the major teams first? There are smaller pro teams that get less attention of whom I'm willing to believe that they would pick up lesser known talents.
Infrastructure not as good.. seriously? On the one hand people complain about SC2 being too easy, certain races being a-move and win - and then there's people complaining they can't get good without playing it fulltime. Would the community please make up its mind? Is SC2 hard or is it easy?
Regarding infrastructure, the situation in BW wasn't exactly ideal either. People are spoiled by the SC2 situation and expect investing a minimal amount of time to get picked up by pro teams or what? If you want to become pro at something, you spend all your spare time for it.
1. A player can't compete with top-level Koreans unless he puts in as much effort. Let's say 10-hours a day or so.
2. All the Craftcup-style small tournaments are great, but they do not get enough exposure in order to work as a sustainable source of income for players.
3. If more higher-paying tournaments had more qualifier spots, #2 wouldn't be an issue, however that's not the case right now. For example, a $25k tournament was announced in Europe, there are 14 invite spots and 2 qualifying spots.
4. That doesn't promote the top Craftcup players from wanting to take the risk of going fulltime. The least amount of "open" spots there are for wage-providing tournaments, the less amount of risk people will be willing to take. For example, 2 chances out of 512 that you'll be able to pay for rent & food is a hell of a risk to take versus 32 chances out of 512.
5. Why are you bringing the easy/hard argument into this? It's clearly evident by looking at top level Koreans that there is a very high skill cap in SC2, people saying otherwise have their eyes closed. It's obviously not so easy that anyone can reach the skill cap (if there is one).
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On January 25 2012 23:05 Aela wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 21:12 Gheed wrote:On January 25 2012 21:09 Aela wrote:
All people I know stopped playing. There is just no reason to ladder if you know you will never make money with it. Whenever someone posts something like this it just makes me sad. The reason people play is to have fun, goddamn. If you played like 500 laddergames, there is not that much fun - especially if you aren't masters+++
That is personal I hate starting new games. Once I hit 500-1000 games is when games get the most fun for me.
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Agree with most what has been said, and streaming really is feast vs famine (with skill not really proportional to viewers)
However it is unfortunate that most foreigner teams are now aiming at recruiting Koreans, so its even harder to get noticed.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6BXU2.png)
