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On January 25 2012 23:03 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 22:39 -ForeverAlone- wrote:On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote: people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies. you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. That's the problem the OP wants to highlight. The infrastructure to get good in NA is not as good in Korea, and this creates a selection bias. There aren't too many 15+ year olds in NA that can just turn their life into full time gaming, unless they already have a lot of money or a very supportive family. The concept of B-teams here doesn't really exist. I mean if we look at the top level pros on the scene today that support themselves only with SC2, a lot of them are there because they had the first mover advantage (HuK) or had the chance to develop before (you). This is made worse by the fact that a lot of tournaments are mostly invite-based. how do you think i got that chance to develop? i ignored school and didnt have a social life for 2 years in order to win a tournament and move to korea at 18 to sit in a house and play starcraft1 with 0 return for another 3 years huk played sc2 all day on a shitty computer during the beta when there was no money in it and did everything he could to get to korea and then spent a year+ practicing in a korean house. most a team pros dont make salaries in korea. none of the b teamers do, the bottom of the barrel doesnt get to live in the house, they just get the priviledge of playing with the team if theyre good enough for people to want to practice with them. you have to sacrifice pretty much everything while you're on your way up. koreans are better because hundreds of them are willing to do it, a handful of nonkoreans are. I think the point is that you both took advantage of the Korean system to get where you are now. Maybe I don't understand the situation well enough but it doesn't seem like western teams are offering the kind of opportunity you got with estro and cj. Does EG have unsalaried practice partners that you play with who could possibly work their way up to full members?
edit:
On January 25 2012 23:07 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 22:48 BrosephBrostar wrote:On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote: people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies. you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. Think of the difference in skill between effort and the worst B-teamer you can remember. Do you really think EG would go out of their way to hire someone that far below yourself? they didnt hire them. most of the time that person stopped going to school and paid to live in a practice house. if he did well enough there the owners of the practice house would take him to a group tryout where he got a handful of games to impress the cj coaches. if he managed to do that he'd be allowed to became an online practice partner or if he did really, really fuckin well he could live in the house for free. so if some unknown was really impressive would scoots let him move into the eg house? what about all the other non-Korean teams that don't even have houses?
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On January 25 2012 23:03 IdrA wrote: how do you think i got that chance to develop? i ignored school and didnt have a social life for 2 years in order to win a tournament and move to korea at 18 to sit in a house and play starcraft1 with 0 return for another 3 years huk played sc2 all day on a shitty computer during the beta when there was no money in it and did everything he could to get to korea and then spent a year+ practicing in a korean house.
most a team pros dont make salaries in korea. none of the b teamers do, the bottom of the barrel doesnt get to live in the house, they just get the priviledge of playing with the team if theyre good enough for people to want to practice with them. you have to sacrifice pretty much everything while you're on your way up. koreans are better because hundreds of them are willing to do it, a handful of nonkoreans are.
Thanks for the reply. 
I understand where you come from, and it's clear you took way bigger risks & sacrifice than pretty much everyone else in NA with SC early on. It's clear that that kind of dedication is required to succeed in a risk thing like (e)Sports, but North Americans seem really scared of taking those risks, part of which is because tournaments are invite-based instead of qualifier based. If more players knew there were bigger opportunities for them through qualifier-based tournaments, they might be more willing to sacrifice everything and go for it.
Or maybe not, in which case... we won't ever see a lot of top level foreigners.
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I couldn't disagree more with the op. The Koreans are so far ahead from the west that they would take 95% of all prizemoney in the scene if they had proper travel arrangements. The only answer to that is to support the top names in the west all the way, to create main stream stars the way Korea created Flash, Jaedong and Boxer. That is the way we will grow future stars with the skill and dedication to rival the Koreans.
How many top players does the US have on the scene, players who can beat Koreans? With all the focus on celebrity in the US, you are going to need money and superstars to even get any attention over there. If you're trying to create some sort of regulation to bring up B level westerners using charity, then Korea will own the Starcraft scene for decades to come.
The west needs the visibility of the few superstars we have. When the BW pros hit the scene this summer, we'll be lucky to get even one top 16 spot for a Foreigner in the MLG's of 2012 and 2013.
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I find this thread very interesting, but I am not qualified to add much. More qualification and less invites seems like a very good idea for me though.
I just though of the similarities between the "foreigner only" tournaments, and "female only" tournaments. Both are meant to protect and nourish a specific (disfavoured?) type of gamers that may not be able to compete with the very best players in the world, and both are a bit controversial and under heavy discussion. So to you people that suggest shutting out koreans from tournaments (like OP), why should we (the esports audience) care about foreigner only tournaments any more than we care about female only tournaments?
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On January 25 2012 23:20 Legio wrote: I couldn't disagree more with the op. The Koreans are so far ahead from the west that they would take 95% of all prizemoney in the scene if they had proper travel arrangements. The only answer to that is to support the top names in the west all the way, to create main stream stars the way Korea created Flash, Jaedong and Boxer. That is the way we will grow future stars with the skill and dedication to rival the Koreans.
How many top players does the US have on the scene, players who can beat Koreans? With all the focus on celebrity in the US, you are going to need money and superstars to even get any attention over there. If you're trying to create some sort of regulation to bring up B level westerners using charity, then Korea will own the Starcraft scene for decades to come.
The west needs the visibility of the few superstars we have. When the BW pros hit the scene this summer, we'll be lucky to get even one top 16 spot for a Foreigner in the MLG's of 2012 and 2013. That's an interesting issue. If we would have more opens (especially online based) how do we deal with the really good Korean players? Does it make sense to block them?
The bottomline is: Koreans are already really good and there's a lack of really good NA/Eur players. This is partly due to culture, partly due to lack of dedication from foreigners.
Is coddling our existing top level pros really the best answer? It sounds pretty reasonable, but it won't fix the lack of SC-related infrastructure in NA compared to Korea, so it's not really a long-term solution.
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On January 25 2012 23:10 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 23:03 IdrA wrote:On January 25 2012 22:39 -ForeverAlone- wrote:On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote: people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies. you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. That's the problem the OP wants to highlight. The infrastructure to get good in NA is not as good in Korea, and this creates a selection bias. There aren't too many 15+ year olds in NA that can just turn their life into full time gaming, unless they already have a lot of money or a very supportive family. The concept of B-teams here doesn't really exist. I mean if we look at the top level pros on the scene today that support themselves only with SC2, a lot of them are there because they had the first mover advantage (HuK) or had the chance to develop before (you). This is made worse by the fact that a lot of tournaments are mostly invite-based. how do you think i got that chance to develop? i ignored school and didnt have a social life for 2 years in order to win a tournament and move to korea at 18 to sit in a house and play starcraft1 with 0 return for another 3 years huk played sc2 all day on a shitty computer during the beta when there was no money in it and did everything he could to get to korea and then spent a year+ practicing in a korean house. most a team pros dont make salaries in korea. none of the b teamers do, the bottom of the barrel doesnt get to live in the house, they just get the priviledge of playing with the team if theyre good enough for people to want to practice with them. you have to sacrifice pretty much everything while you're on your way up. koreans are better because hundreds of them are willing to do it, a handful of nonkoreans are. I think the point is that you both took advantage of the Korean system to get where you are now. Maybe I don't understand the situation well enough but it doesn't seem like western teams are offering the kind of opportunity you got with estro and cj. Does EG have unsalaried practice partners that you play with who could possibly work their way up to full members? i gave up a ton to get to korea. its much much easier to get to korea and take advantage of that system now. but except for a very few, everyone who comes leaves again after a couple months. people just dont put in the effort. they dont deserve to be succesful.
edit: Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 23:07 IdrA wrote:On January 25 2012 22:48 BrosephBrostar wrote:On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote: people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies. you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. Think of the difference in skill between effort and the worst B-teamer you can remember. Do you really think EG would go out of their way to hire someone that far below yourself? they didnt hire them. most of the time that person stopped going to school and paid to live in a practice house. if he did well enough there the owners of the practice house would take him to a group tryout where he got a handful of games to impress the cj coaches. if he managed to do that he'd be allowed to became an online practice partner or if he did really, really fuckin well he could live in the house for free. so if some unknown was really impressive would scoots let him move into the eg house? what about all the other non-Korean teams that don't even have houses? that just devolves into quibbling about what counts as impressive. yes, but there arent unknown foreigners who would qualify as impressive. as morrow said its incredibly easy to get known outside of korea if you're actually good. theres tons of tournaments that top players dont play. if you're good enough to be on that level you should be winning those.
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On January 25 2012 23:32 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 23:10 BrosephBrostar wrote:On January 25 2012 23:03 IdrA wrote:On January 25 2012 22:39 -ForeverAlone- wrote:On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote: people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies. you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. That's the problem the OP wants to highlight. The infrastructure to get good in NA is not as good in Korea, and this creates a selection bias. There aren't too many 15+ year olds in NA that can just turn their life into full time gaming, unless they already have a lot of money or a very supportive family. The concept of B-teams here doesn't really exist. I mean if we look at the top level pros on the scene today that support themselves only with SC2, a lot of them are there because they had the first mover advantage (HuK) or had the chance to develop before (you). This is made worse by the fact that a lot of tournaments are mostly invite-based. how do you think i got that chance to develop? i ignored school and didnt have a social life for 2 years in order to win a tournament and move to korea at 18 to sit in a house and play starcraft1 with 0 return for another 3 years huk played sc2 all day on a shitty computer during the beta when there was no money in it and did everything he could to get to korea and then spent a year+ practicing in a korean house. most a team pros dont make salaries in korea. none of the b teamers do, the bottom of the barrel doesnt get to live in the house, they just get the priviledge of playing with the team if theyre good enough for people to want to practice with them. you have to sacrifice pretty much everything while you're on your way up. koreans are better because hundreds of them are willing to do it, a handful of nonkoreans are. I think the point is that you both took advantage of the Korean system to get where you are now. Maybe I don't understand the situation well enough but it doesn't seem like western teams are offering the kind of opportunity you got with estro and cj. Does EG have unsalaried practice partners that you play with who could possibly work their way up to full members? i gave up a ton to get to korea. its much much easier to get to korea and take advantage of that system now. but except for a very few, everyone who comes leaves again after a couple months. people just dont put in the effort. they dont deserve to be succesful. Show nested quote +edit: On January 25 2012 23:07 IdrA wrote:On January 25 2012 22:48 BrosephBrostar wrote:On January 25 2012 22:28 IdrA wrote: people seem to think foreign teams actively avoid picking up new players or something. if you're worth it teams are going to be scrambling to get you. very very few people invest enough effort to be good or to create a fanbase. those that have have joined teams or been hired by companies. you dont join a team and then get good, you get good and then join a team. Think of the difference in skill between effort and the worst B-teamer you can remember. Do you really think EG would go out of their way to hire someone that far below yourself? they didnt hire them. most of the time that person stopped going to school and paid to live in a practice house. if he did well enough there the owners of the practice house would take him to a group tryout where he got a handful of games to impress the cj coaches. if he managed to do that he'd be allowed to became an online practice partner or if he did really, really fuckin well he could live in the house for free. so if some unknown was really impressive would scoots let him move into the eg house? what about all the other non-Korean teams that don't even have houses? that just devolves into quibbling about what counts as impressive. yes, but there arent unknown foreigners who would qualify as impressive. as morrow said its incredibly easy to get known outside of korea if you're actually good. theres tons of tournaments that top players dont play. if you're good enough to be on that level you should be winning those.
Thank you very much for explaining things, it really helps put korea in perspective. I see what you're saying with foreigners not being willing to give up as many things as koreans and work as hard as koreans to get to where they want to be. I'm friends with some semi-pros and other people who want to go semi-pro but can't, and I do see that a lot of them really talk big but in the end don't put in the time required and get too easily distracted from SC2 with other things like TV or forums or other games.
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I agree entirely,having 99 invites and one qualifier seed,that will most likely be a korean pro that aced through a NA qualifier is just silly.If we want foreign e-sports to grow we can't pick "the industry" favourites and go wtih it,we need to have more qualifiers if we want to stay relevant to the scene.
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I completely agree especially on the bit about region locked qualifiers. Its nearly impossible for a lesser known foreigner to get into a tournament with Koreans entering NA and EU quals which is especially true for those on the NA server. So many Koreans get into tournaments that way cause they can just face roll their way through decimating everything they come into contact with hence why you see those like MarineKingPrime qualifying for a huge tournament (I think homestory but im not sure) by going through the NA server cause it's just smarter to do since there will be littler resistance.
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you just made my day... you have touched my dreams...
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On January 25 2012 19:06 Omar91 wrote: I for one stop playing because TvP is so fucking retarded, Collosus-Chargelots-Storm-FF made me rage quit the game, I was high diamond.
User was temp banned for this post.
Yet you're still gracing us with your presence. Go away.
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On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote: TL;DR at the beginning because this is huge: foreign player pool is dying. Foreigners are going to stop existing in SC2 one day.
Alright guys, this is going to be long. So get ready. This is a post about where the SC2 community is headed and why, unless we make some drastic changes, our community as we know it will shrink substantially. In the last few weeks we’ve read tons of articles about foreign teams dropping their foreign players and picking up new Korean players. EG dropped Axslav/Strifecro and grabbed JYP, fnatic has dropped the majority of the roster and recently picked up Moon and this trend will definitely continue. It’s no secret that the way to win is to hire Koreans. They are the best players in the world, no doubt about it. Even Code A Koreans are better than the majority of foreigners. So for a foreign team of course it makes sense to grab a Korean instead; it’s a no-brainer.
This is a necessity for the evolution of starcraft2 to a higher skill level, the strong survive the weak perish. There is nothing wrong with that.
On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote: So what is the problem? It’s no secret that the best way to succeed with a tournament is to mix the following: top tier well known foreigners (IdrA, Huk, white-ra etc.), a few well known Koreans and a celebrity caster or two (day[9], totalbiscuit, etc.). You mix all of those elements and unless your show is a catastrophe, you will get viewer numbers. Thankfully for us, the celebrity casters aren’t going anywhere. We love day[9] and I like to think he loves us too. So he’s here as long as we are. Koreans obviously aren’t going anywhere. But the last element might.
At some point all progamers retire. Some have extremely long careers (ex. Grubby was a WC3 progamer for almost the entire existence of professional WC3) and others retire quickly (Creolophus was a WC3 progamer that made his mark in a single year and retired, similar to what Stephano intends on doing). At some point all progamers will retire. A sustainable e-sports model requires there be new progamers to replace them. This has always been an issue in e-sports. It is very common for progamers to retire with almost no one to replace them. This is simply because the barrier to entry gets steeper and steeper as a game develops (BW at the start was filled with noobs compared to the level of refinement from a Flash or Jaedong). So you can see why declining player numbers is a huge issue (especially since NA/EU are declining at a much faster rate). This is a large part of the reason why e-sports scene often die.
Wrong conclusion, this is the reason why the weaker player stop playing, you can't logically link "the e-sport scene dies" with "weaker player stop playing because they suck" (and the reason for no new replacement is because those up and comers are also weak)
On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:Of course this applies to both Korean and Foreign progamers but it is more of a concern for foreigners. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VIkFD.png) The graph represents player numbers for each region since the games release (taken from sc2ranks). For those really curious, it’s divided by patch. Half a year ago, EU/NA had 3-4x as many players as the Korean server did; now all 3 servers are about equal. That’s astonishing when you think about it. The drop-off for Koreans is minimal compared to Foreigners. And there’s no reason this trend won’t continue. This is the only piece of empirical data you have, and why you provide this data? could it be that you want to show there is a decline in player base in order to support your claim that e-sport is dying? What is e-sport? do you think the majority of those players that stop playing were potentially the next idra? If they had what it takes they would not have stop playing, it has nothing to do with what you are saying in the paragraph. the simplest explanation is usually the most sound one, and in this case, people just got bored and moved on, or simply stop playing ladder.
On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote: Let’s try to figure out why. First I’m going to paint you a picture of a Korean that is trying to go pro. He’ll start off a scrub; 4gating his way up the ladder. He’ll land in a lower league and slowly start working his way up. Along the way he has tangible goals; first to get into gold, then platinum, then diamond and finally masters. What happens then? He is ultra-motivated to quality for Code B. Code B represents ~ 1500 of the best Korean players on the ladder (which I believe is mid-high masters on the ladder). Once he finally reaches that plateau he can compete in the Code A qualifiers. He’s going to go to a huge LAN event and have a chance to play against players like Boxer and LosirA. How does that not motivate an individual? I might be playing Boxer next week. I’m going to fucking practice 24 hours a day until then. Once you’re at this level, you have a new goal. Now you want to be noticed by team coaches and players on ladder and maybe get yourself into a B-team house (like ProS). Hell, you might be good enough to skip a step and get straight into a proteam house. There are probably a hundred spots available and considering many players have multiple accounts, I’d venture to guess that anyone that is GM on the Korean ladder is skilled enough to belong in a team house. Now you’re playing in the big leagues. In the team house you’re practicing everyday and will keep going until you can finally beat MMA or DRG or whoever else is in your house.
What’s my point here? There are clear goals along the way. Motivation comes from having a goal. It’s impossible to motivate yourself without a goal. You know who succeeds when they want to lose weight? The guy that says I will lose 5 lbs in a month. Not the guy that says I’m going to lose a ton of weight brah (partially because the second guy sounds like an idiot).
What is this? your point is saying motivation is the only thing you need to succeed in the korean scene? Then try to figure out why as motivated as nestea and MvP, why did they have to quit bw? why? it is because as motivated as they are, their talents are out shined by even better people. Now you are trying to use this to make your claim that "e-sport is not dying" because "the koreans have motivation" so that you can follow up with your real motive in your original claim "e-sport is dying" because the foreigners have no motivation"
On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote: Let’s look at the other end of the spectrum: the life of a foreigner. I work my way up the ladder. I’m masters now fuck yea. I’m going to post this on reddit and be 23rd on the front page of r/Starcraft for about an hour. Sweet. Now what? Might as well keep laddering and get to GM. Awesome I’m GM now. It took forever but I’ve finally done it. You know how much karma this is going to get me on reddit? A ton. I’ll be right at the top for half a day! This seems facetious but it is actual reality. A high masters/low GM player on the NA (and to a lesser extent EU) server have no way of getting noticed. They have no tangible goals. Koreans know exactly what they need to do to get into Code B. They have a very real opportunity to get into a team house once they get there. Foreigners on the other hand have nothing. They have no clear avenue to get into progaming. It’s too much of a crapshoot on the foreigner side. It’s way harder to get noticed and even if you do, it’s so hard to actually get onto a foreign team or into a major tournament.
Let’s put this into perspective. Imagine you’re a GM player on the NA server. You’re not on a pro team but you’re pretty good. How do you get noticed? Streaming doesn’t do anything. No one watches players they don’t know. You’d get 5 viewers. Even players like Vibe have trouble breaking a few hundred viewers despite the fact that his stream is of epic quality (tons of commentary, awesome player). Someone once described streaming as feast or famine (I feel like it was Huk or Tyler on SOTG a long time ago) and that is 100% true.
The other option is to try and qualify for some major events. Let’s look at the leagues. IPL3 held online qualifiers, but they were filled with Koreans. The Koreans won the majority of the spots. The same idea was true for the NASL qualifiers. This pretty much holds true for any major event that holds qualifiers. Here’s an example. Let’s take GoSu.Gatored. He is an outstanding player. At IEM NYC he beat DRG, Top and went pretty damn far. How far can he get in MLG? Nowhere. His highest placing was 33rd and I doubt he’s had many (if any) streamed matches. How’d he do in IPL3? Can’t qualify. He is exactly the type of player that should be getting a ton more recognition than he currently is. Unless a player gets noticed he doesn’t provide any value to a team. But it is nearly impossible, in the game’s current state, to get noticed. See the dilemma?
Ya i see your dilemma, and it has nothing to do with the game's current state, it might have something to do with the current sc2 e-sport scene, where the people who are more skilled are in the spot lights. You are using examples of players who took a couple of series off the Koreans to equate skill, and deserving of recognition. Yes, Gatored deserve recognition for taking a game off DRG, just like IMMVP deserves recognition for taking a game off Flash back in the BW days, we don't see anyone whining about MVP didn't get enough recognition, therefore e-sport is dying.
On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote: In my opinion, the state of the foreign scene is pretty bleak. Just take a long hard look at some of the tournament results. If you look at the foreign scene, it is the usual suspects in every event since release. The very first foreign SC2 tournament was IEM Cologne in 2010. Guess who the top 3 were? Morrow, IdrA and Dimaga. The entire player list is represents pretty much the top tier foreigner list to this date. But if you look at the Korean scene there are always new players popping up. There is much more turnover with new players developing, getting noticed and entering competitive. The motivation just isn’t there for foreigners because there is no clear way to get noticed. However there are ways to solve this though.
In my opinion, your opinion is deceptive and manipulative. You are trying to use premises that are not closely relating to your conclusion to make your conclusion convincing. But enough of talking about your opinion, beating a dead horse is no fun, let's talk about mine on this matter, so you can rebut and take your shot at me. In my opinion the scene should reward higher level of game play, spot lights the best players regardless of where they are from, that's what the viewers deserves, better game play. And if the only people who are able to bring this into my stream are the koreans players then they are the one we will cheer for. E-sport will die when people no longer value the highest quality of play by the best player, E-sport will not die because of low skilled players not getting any recognition and hence lose all motivation to improve.
On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote: Let’s start with event organizers. I’m sorry but this invitation system needs to end. We can’t have 95% of the players being invited and 5% qualifying through qualifiers. It has to be the other way around. I get the need to invite a few big name players to attract viewers. But instead of inviting 30 players and qualifying 2, do the opposite and invite a handful and have qualifiers for the rest. Of course that doesn’t solve the problem itself. The qualifiers need to be region locked. A NA qualifier should be for NA residents only. The NA qualifiers shouldn’t be won by 4 different Koreans. That defeats the purpose. Organizers need to start doing region-locked qualifiers for all 3 regions. This is part of the reason I love ESL. They get it. They’re doing exactly this. ESL is the reason a guy like Gatored has been noticed. He is a beastly player and got to display that at IEM NYC. Also to their credit, MLG seems to be progressing in this direction for 2012. Yes qualifiers are more work. But to run an open qualifier online, it really doesn’t take that much work. You can set it up on z33k or playhem or binarybeast or whatever and let the system automate it. You only need to invest an afternoon to admin the event (maybe 2-3 people if you have hundreds of signups). Trust me, I’ve personally admined events with hundreds of people and all it takes is an afternoon (+ whatever time you want to spend advertising). Korean qualifiers are a little more difficult (language barrier, advertising in Korea). But hopefully more organizations can adopt the Asus ROG/Korean Weekly model.
Now what can the community do? Let’s stop focusing 100% of our attention on a few select players. There are tons of streamers that are as good as some of the popular guys. Let’s also start branching out and watching some other events. Yes I’m from z33k and playhem is my mortal enemy (sarcasm) but watching their dailies does give some ROI for teams with players competing. It does give you, the viewers, a chance to see some of the lesser known players that are almost, if not, as good as some of the current pros.
Anyways, that’s it for now. It’s 4 am and I’m going to get to bed. I’ll respond to as many people as I can when I wake up. you can rig the rules to let the lesser skilled player into big tournaments all you want, as long as they are not strong enough to take down the best in the end, the only one stands on top and in the spot lights will be the best player of that tournament. In my opinion, the better the player the higher quality of games i will watch in the streams, I want the best of the best from the first round to the last round of the tournament, i don't want to see one sided beat downs.
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Alott of this is also because of geography, Korea is a rather small country, with alott of gamers, alott of teams, US and EU cant compete with that. In Korea its like 100000 SC2 gamers in Seoul... One city... Compare that too EU and US...
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TL;DR: If you guys want to reduce the drop rate, you should complain less and practice more. Unfortunately, that's impossible for all players, and unless foreign mentality changes, the game will keep on emptying.
In my humble opinion, the problem with the drop rate is balance.
Korean players don't really complain about balance as foreigners do. The problem with western culture is that people want the game to be won for them, without any effort on their part.
Take the GSL: we've seen a single Protoss winning 2 championships, and that was it for Protoss. The Protoss race can't seem to win anything these days and, when they do, it's because there were not enough good players around.
Foreigners, if I'm not mistaken, used to play Protoss a lot more than Terran or Zerg, whereas Koreans are mainly Terran players. There are a few reasons for that, of course, namely Lim Yo Hwan (BoxeR), Lee Yoon Yeol (NaDa), Lee Young Ho (Flash), Jung Myung Hoon (fantasy), Lee Jung Hoon (MarineKing/FakeBoxer). The guys whose name I've just written are LEGENDS and probably every single serious player in the world has already heard of them, know them or have watched them play. I, for one, as my nickname suggests, am a HUGE fan of BoxeR's, and I'm pretty sure many of you also fit in this category.
The second reason for Koreans to play Terran is that, in all honesty, the race is the strongest. You guys can ban me, can sue me, can do whatever the hell you want to me, but truth be told: Terran is by far the strongest race in Starcraft 2. Whereas Starcraft: Brood War required an actual amount of skill from players, thus making the game fairly balanced (if you're not Flash, that is), Starcraft 2 is just a macro game, where you need to gather resources, create a Ball of Death and roflstomp anyone, or be roflstomped if their Ball of Death is bigger than yours.
There is pretty much no room for micro in Starcraft 2. We've seen, time and time again, 'better' players losing because they focused too much on micro and forget to macro. In Brood War you needed BOTH micro and macro, but what REALLY made a difference (and opened the door for geniuses like BoxeR and NaDa) was the micro and mechanic skills the players had. BoxeR's macro, as everyone knows, is flawed and faaaaaaar from perfect. He is, nonetheless, the Emperor.
Foreigners don't like to macro, it seems. Playing macro is playing passively. You need a HUGE amount of APM to be able to macro and harass efficiently at the same time. Foreigners just don't have that kind of skill. Plus, what's more important, they DON'T WANT TO practice to have that kind of skill. We see people complaining all the time about how marines-marauders-roaches-mutas-colossi-chargelots are imbalanced. The more you ban the people saying that, the more you hide the main reason for the huge drop hate of foreigners: the game is flawed.
That's what you would think, right? The point is: Koreans KNOW that perfect balance is impossible to achieve, unless you're incredibly lucky. Koreans KNOW that Starcraft 2 isn't going to be balanced until 2 or 3 years AFTER the release of Legacy of the Void (or you guys think any Korean liked Stephano massing PURE ROACHES against Song Hyeon Deok [HerO] and Jang Min Chul [MC]?). MarineKing is famous for his infinite number of Marines, right? WRONG! He is famous and so loved because of his CONTROL of his infinite number of Marines.
We all know the game is flawed. The game's mechanics are essentially flawed (take warp-ins, and force fields for example), but that's not the point. The point is: Koreans don't whine about game balance. They understand the problems and advantages of each race, and they make the best they can with what they can. In fact, Koreans avoid talking about game balance, because they understand there is nothing to be done, but to play to the best of their ability, so Blizzard will understand where they did wrong and fix it. If you don't play to the best of your ability, how can you complain about game balance?
The foreign mindset is simple: if the game isn't fun, I'm not playing it anymore. And who the fuck likes to lose, unless they're masochistic?
Foreigners look at e-sports as a way to have fun. It is, essentially, entertainment. First of all because foreigners can't make a living out of e-sports, unless they're already rich. Or you guys think that foreign pro-players were poor like Kim Won Ki (FruitDealer) or Jung Jong Hyun (Mvp)?
Plus, foreigners don't feel the need to present results as Koreans do. I am still at a loss as to why "players" like IdrA, Incontrol and DeMuslim (to name a few) are so loved by the foreign community, since they can't seem to do any good.
So, as long as foreign players look at e-sports as fun, and not as a job or a way to make a living (which is impossible, due to foreign culture, which praises football more than anything, it seems) they will keep on dropping games like Starcraft 2.
To keep people playing this game, Blizzard Entertainment would need to even things out. If you get the numbers, you'll see that Zerg is the least played race, and even so they have 4 combined GSL championships (Lim Jae Duk has 3 and Kim Won Ki has 1), whereas Protoss has 10% more players (it is a lot, when it comes to a game) and only 2 championships. Terran and Protoss have essentially the same number of players, and yet people call this game TerranCraft for a reason: Terran has 6 GSL championships and 8 GSL runner-ups (as well as 15 3rd places).
Like I said before, Koreans get mad at such "imbalanced" numbers, but they don't get "dismotivated" (if such a word exists) by that: they play the race they've chosen, and they try to find ways around the inherent flaws in each game. Foreigners, on the other hand, will simply drop e-sports regarding them as 'just a game' or even 'this shit is broken, fuck it".
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to write such a huge wall of text, but I felt the urge to =X
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United States87 Posts
tl;dr: The current numbers on SC2Ranks are only for the first month of season 5, while all of the previous patches are each snapshots from 3-4 months into previous seasons.
I think that the data that the OP is using is based off a flawed understanding of how SC2Ranks works. SC2Ranks takes data from the current season, not the current patch. What this means is that if you have not qualified for the current season in a certain league, then you will not appear on SC2Ranks. Yes, they do have data from old patches, but that is just a snapshot from the day the patches ended. These snapshots were taken from the middle of seasons one to three which were each four to six months long meaning that we had months worth of people who played just enough to qualify but then never touched ladder again. Now, the only people who are showing up are people who have qualified for season 5, no one who qualified during season 4 (which was during this current patch) but hasn't played since is going to be shown. So the numbers haven't necessarily fallen down as much as they appear (from ~670k in 1v1 during patch 1.4.1 to currently ~225k in 1v1); we just have far fewer people accumulating through the months to boost up the numbers. Remember that patch 1.4.1 was in existance for the entirety of the four month long season 3. The current number of people shown now have only been accumulating over less than a month. I remember that near the end of season 4, there were about 400k people in 1v1 after only two months of accumulation, so these numbers will definitely rise as the season progresses.
Now, these numbers on SC2Ranks say nothing about how dedicated these players are, but I just wanted to point out that the drawing sweeping conclusions from just taking pure numbers from SC2Ranks is acting on a flawed concept.
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I think the problem isn't at the top, it is at the bottom. All pro sports have a foundation starting from when we are children (little league baseball for example). There needs to be many more tournaments for beginners and players who just do not have the time to put into getting better. The current SC scene heavily favors only the top players and with the lack of a competitive scene before you are top masters there are too many players left out of the mix. We need to grow our players from the bottom up.
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Like IdrA said, electronic sports, and especially Starcraft 2, requires total devotion and nearly life abandon in order to hope to become a pro. Some manage to succeed, some fail miserably after leaving school etc... and waste their youth, and most people don't want to do it because the reward is non existent.
In Korea the stars are so popular that a lot of young ppl might find it worthy to become pro but don't forget the huge mass of players who waste their youth, their future life, for a game in which they will never become pros. This is huge.
The problem with electronic sports is the "electronic" word. With no borders, people have the ability to chose who they watch and support them, and naturally, they will chose the bests one.
Look at the stream views : ppl like Stephano, Kas, MMA, etc... will have thousands of viewers. Other guys get nothing and this will never change because it s directly wired to the core of spectators.
How do a soccer team gets money ? - People coming in their stadiums - Investors and Business Angels - Advertisement - Television fees goes to leagues and not to players There are no stadiums in e-sport, and most importantly, teams belong to nowhere. Local people would support their local soccer team because they belong here. It is not the fact in esports. Nobody gives a real shit about that.
Without money, there is no place for the "good players but not good enough to be in the world top domination"... So who can really dare to cancel their social life, professionnal life, school life, for something where nobody gets a future ?
The main issue for the scene is money. We need more cash flowing in esports, for teams and players, not only leagues, and for a larger amount of players.
And this is difficult, because there are no borders for any fan, and not a lot of "shows" where you can go on a regular basis and enjoy more than a stream...
Sport money came first with stadiums, and also because investors found it fun to have their players, etc...
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Idk, I was really motivated to get into masters since I was bronze. I worked my way up the ladder, going through each league just like you said the koreans were doing. But once I got into masters, I realized I'm not good enough to enter tournaments and do well, so that really killed the whole feeling for me. I thought "omg, masters is top 2% of the server! I can enter tournaments and be a beast!" then you actually get there and realize you have to practice just as hard if not harder to get into even high masters, not even GM.
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On January 26 2012 00:00 SonOfBoxer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +TL;DR: If you guys want to reduce the drop rate, you should complain less and practice more. Unfortunately, that's impossible for all players, and unless foreign mentality changes, the game will keep on emptying.
In my humble opinion, the problem with the drop rate is balance.
Korean players don't really complain about balance as foreigners do. The problem with western culture is that people want the game to be won for them, without any effort on their part.
Take the GSL: we've seen a single Protoss winning 2 championships, and that was it for Protoss. The Protoss race can't seem to win anything these days and, when they do, it's because there were not enough good players around.
Foreigners, if I'm not mistaken, used to play Protoss a lot more than Terran or Zerg, whereas Koreans are mainly Terran players. There are a few reasons for that, of course, namely Lim Yo Hwan (BoxeR), Lee Yoon Yeol (NaDa), Lee Young Ho (Flash), Jung Myung Hoon (fantasy), Lee Jung Hoon (MarineKing/FakeBoxer). The guys whose name I've just written are LEGENDS and probably every single serious player in the world has already heard of them, know them or have watched them play. I, for one, as my nickname suggests, am a HUGE fan of BoxeR's, and I'm pretty sure many of you also fit in this category.
The second reason for Koreans to play Terran is that, in all honesty, the race is the strongest. You guys can ban me, can sue me, can do whatever the hell you want to me, but truth be told: Terran is by far the strongest race in Starcraft 2. Whereas Starcraft: Brood War required an actual amount of skill from players, thus making the game fairly balanced (if you're not Flash, that is), Starcraft 2 is just a macro game, where you need to gather resources, create a Ball of Death and roflstomp anyone, or be roflstomped if their Ball of Death is bigger than yours.
There is pretty much no room for micro in Starcraft 2. We've seen, time and time again, 'better' players losing because they focused too much on micro and forget to macro. In Brood War you needed BOTH micro and macro, but what REALLY made a difference (and opened the door for geniuses like BoxeR and NaDa) was the micro and mechanic skills the players had. BoxeR's macro, as everyone knows, is flawed and faaaaaaar from perfect. He is, nonetheless, the Emperor.
Foreigners don't like to macro, it seems. Playing macro is playing passively. You need a HUGE amount of APM to be able to macro and harass efficiently at the same time. Foreigners just don't have that kind of skill. Plus, what's more important, they DON'T WANT TO practice to have that kind of skill. We see people complaining all the time about how marines-marauders-roaches-mutas-colossi-chargelots are imbalanced. The more you ban the people saying that, the more you hide the main reason for the huge drop hate of foreigners: the game is flawed.
That's what you would think, right? The point is: Koreans KNOW that perfect balance is impossible to achieve, unless you're incredibly lucky. Koreans KNOW that Starcraft 2 isn't going to be balanced until 2 or 3 years AFTER the release of Legacy of the Void (or you guys think any Korean liked Stephano massing PURE ROACHES against Song Hyeon Deok [HerO] and Jang Min Chul [MC]?). MarineKing is famous for his infinite number of Marines, right? WRONG! He is famous and so loved because of his CONTROL of his infinite number of Marines.
We all know the game is flawed. The game's mechanics are essentially flawed (take warp-ins, and force fields for example), but that's not the point. The point is: Koreans don't whine about game balance. They understand the problems and advantages of each race, and they make the best they can with what they can. In fact, Koreans avoid talking about game balance, because they understand there is nothing to be done, but to play to the best of their ability, so Blizzard will understand where they did wrong and fix it. If you don't play to the best of your ability, how can you complain about game balance?
The foreign mindset is simple: if the game isn't fun, I'm not playing it anymore. And who the fuck likes to lose, unless they're masochistic?
Foreigners look at e-sports as a way to have fun. It is, essentially, entertainment. First of all because foreigners can't make a living out of e-sports, unless they're already rich. Or you guys think that foreign pro-players were poor like Kim Won Ki (FruitDealer) or Jung Jong Hyun (Mvp)?
Plus, foreigners don't feel the need to present results as Koreans do. I am still at a loss as to why "players" like IdrA, Incontrol and DeMuslim (to name a few) are so loved by the foreign community, since they can't seem to do any good.
So, as long as foreign players look at e-sports as fun, and not as a job or a way to make a living (which is impossible, due to foreign culture, which praises football more than anything, it seems) they will keep on dropping games like Starcraft 2.
To keep people playing this game, Blizzard Entertainment would need to even things out. If you get the numbers, you'll see that Zerg is the least played race, and even so they have 4 combined GSL championships (Lim Jae Duk has 3 and Kim Won Ki has 1), whereas Protoss has 10% more players (it is a lot, when it comes to a game) and only 2 championships. Terran and Protoss have essentially the same number of players, and yet people call this game TerranCraft for a reason: Terran has 6 GSL championships and 8 GSL runner-ups (as well as 15 3rd places).
Like I said before, Koreans get mad at such "imbalanced" numbers, but they don't get "dismotivated" (if such a word exists) by that: they play the race they've chosen, and they try to find ways around the inherent flaws in each game. Foreigners, on the other hand, will simply drop e-sports regarding them as 'just a game' or even 'this shit is broken, fuck it".
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to write such a huge wall of text, but I felt the urge to =X
Your post started promising, but everything went downhill really fast :[
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As Idra said, if your good enough you'll be spotted. So get entering those daily / weekly cups and if your winning those, then you'll probably make headway. That's how Nerchio got noticed, being an online cup monster.
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