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This is entirely the result of the attitude held by non-Korean teams and the community in general. Teams and fans aren't interested in rookies, or B-teamers, or practice partners. The only thing they care about is star power, so of course there's no progression open for new players.
Honestly the whole situation is kind of pathetic. The western community is supposed to be at the forefront of SC2 but they have less professionalism than your average kiddy soccer league. Just listen to the excuses they make. "Waah I can't move away from home, that's asking too much." "Waah I can't work 8 hours a day, that's asking too much." How can these people even pretend they're professionals when they can't handle things expected from anyone with an adult job? How can the community play along with it?
Why don't non-Korean teams hire coaches and practice partners and set up an offline team league that people will actually watch instead of online crap that gets 2000 views at most? The money is (supposedly) there. The expectation (should) be there. So why is no one stepping up to prove that the non-Korean scene is more than a dog and pony show?
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On January 25 2012 21:22 MorroW wrote:
this article is pretty stupid
its actually the other way around.
koreans have a really hard time getting noticed even when they become gosu. there are hundreds of korean gosus but we really just notice and keep an eye on about 10% of them.
how many foreigner gosus are there? doesnt matter we keep an eye on 100% of them, we even follow players that arent gosus but are "pretty good for foreigner".
they have to practice like crazy, to one day qualify for code a (takes from 1 month to 1 year lol) and then hopefully get noticed.
foreigners get to GM in and sign up for weekly cups, after a while he starts getting noticed because he gets like top8 in weekly cups.
the amount of work you have to do, the cheer skill you need as a korean to get noticed is alot higher than for foreigners. because these up and coming foreigners doesnt have to climb up as high in skill to start winning tournaments.
so its easier in a few ways:
1: you dont need as much skill to win weeklys
2: there are tournaments everywhere you can play in the foreigner scene
3: you get noticed much more easily because foreigner scene obviously follows the foreigner scene more
the reason why theres more koreans on the top, why foreigner teams are recruiting more koreans etc is because they are better and the teams want them to win.
i dont know the reason why theres few foreigner progamers or few up and coming. but im 110% sure its not because its too hard to get noticed. its really really easy and anyone could do it that knows what hard work and dedication means.
take nerchio as an example. he was a noname that practiced hard, became a top foreigner in skill, won a shitton of weekly cups and the he started to get invited to tournaments. and now hes famous and skilled enough to get to lans like homestory cup.
if you know how it works on both sides and u put them up together, you soon realize that its alot easier for foreigners to get famous, money and invites to tournamnets
and on a sidenote. the graph you pulled up is the amount of players on the server, that has nothing to do with the amount of players that is trying to become progamers and famous
I agree with most of what you said, but don't you think it is bad that there is such a large emphasis on personality and viewership relative to results in the west? This just goes to prove your point about foreigners having it easier, but I think it is a pathetic state of the community when more people know right now who Incontrol is than Jjakji.
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That goes for most games no? Sure the bronze players might have left, but how many top tier foreigners have stopped playing so far?
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On January 25 2012 21:42 BrosephBrostar wrote:
This is entirely the result of the attitude held by non-Korean teams and the community in general. Teams and fans aren't interested in rookies, or B-teamers, or practice partners. The only thing they care about is star power, so of course there's no progression open for new players.
Honestly the whole situation is kind of pathetic. The western community is supposed to be at the forefront of SC2 but they have less professionalism than your average kiddy soccer league. Just listen to the excuses they make. "Waah I can't move away from home, that's asking too much." "Waah I can't work 8 hours a day, that's asking too much." How can these people even pretend they're professionals when they can't handle things expected from anyone with an adult job? How can the community play along with it?
Why don't non-Korean teams hire coaches and practice partners and set up an offline team league that people will actually watch instead of online crap that gets 2000 views at most? The money is (supposedly) there. The expectation (should) be there. So why is no one stepping up to prove that the non-Korean scene is more than a dog and pony show?
Something like msl huh, Yeah I would like to see more of those off line league tournaments in the non korean scene.
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+ Show Spoiler +Warning may contain polemics and hyperboles
Okay, let's talk about how to get recognized, based on regions:
US
Drama Drama Drama. Grab some tits, get wasted on stream. It may be a cultural thing, but I think you are pretty fucked if you want to be recognized as a North American player by skill only. The only chance for you is to start in a smaller team and/or go to Korea.
EU
Often you only get recognition in a specific region. French players will be recognized within the francophon countries. German players will be recognized in Germny. There not really a united European scene. You play lots of small weekly/monthly tournaments and hope to get a spot in one of the few recognized, featured European tournaments.
RU
By far the strongest region outside of Korea. There are players which are the best of the best but you will never hear their names or see their faces. The language barrier keeps them locked way and often there is not enough money to travel the immense distances to other regions.
KOR
Luck. Play hard, play strong and sell yourself entirely to Star2. Since Star2 isn't as big as Star1, the trend will continue and Korean players will become strong mercenaries.
SEA
No chance. You need to get into another region.
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United States5162 Posts
On January 25 2012 21:47 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 21:22 MorroW wrote:
this article is pretty stupid
its actually the other way around.
koreans have a really hard time getting noticed even when they become gosu. there are hundreds of korean gosus but we really just notice and keep an eye on about 10% of them.
how many foreigner gosus are there? doesnt matter we keep an eye on 100% of them, we even follow players that arent gosus but are "pretty good for foreigner".
they have to practice like crazy, to one day qualify for code a (takes from 1 month to 1 year lol) and then hopefully get noticed.
foreigners get to GM in and sign up for weekly cups, after a while he starts getting noticed because he gets like top8 in weekly cups.
the amount of work you have to do, the cheer skill you need as a korean to get noticed is alot higher than for foreigners. because these up and coming foreigners doesnt have to climb up as high in skill to start winning tournaments.
so its easier in a few ways:
1: you dont need as much skill to win weeklys
2: there are tournaments everywhere you can play in the foreigner scene
3: you get noticed much more easily because foreigner scene obviously follows the foreigner scene more
the reason why theres more koreans on the top, why foreigner teams are recruiting more koreans etc is because they are better and the teams want them to win.
i dont know the reason why theres few foreigner progamers or few up and coming. but im 110% sure its not because its too hard to get noticed. its really really easy and anyone could do it that knows what hard work and dedication means.
take nerchio as an example. he was a noname that practiced hard, became a top foreigner in skill, won a shitton of weekly cups and the he started to get invited to tournaments. and now hes famous and skilled enough to get to lans like homestory cup.
if you know how it works on both sides and u put them up together, you soon realize that its alot easier for foreigners to get famous, money and invites to tournamnets
and on a sidenote. the graph you pulled up is the amount of players on the server, that has nothing to do with the amount of players that is trying to become progamers and famous I agree with most of what you said, but don't you think it is bad that there is such a large emphasis on personality and viewership relative to results in the west? This just goes to prove your point about foreigners having it easier, but I think it is a pathetic state of the community when more people know right now who Incontrol is than Jjakji.
It's about entertainment, of which being good is only a portion of. And it's not just relegated to esports. Tim Duncan is one of the greatest, maybe even the greatest, power forwards the NBA has ever seen. His star power is hardly top 15.
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On January 25 2012 21:42 BrosephBrostar wrote:
This is entirely the result of the attitude held by non-Korean teams and the community in general. Teams and fans aren't interested in rookies, or B-teamers, or practice partners. The only thing they care about is star power, so of course there's no progression open for new players.
Ironic...
Like Morrow said above you, this kind of "star-gazing" attitude is actually even MORE problematic in Korea. Listen to Hwanni's interview with JP - he says all anyone in Korea cares about is a good game with a famous guy playing. That's the biggest reason why SC2 is so small in Korea right now, and why only the hardcore guys play it. The casuals don't give a shit about MMA or MVP.
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On January 25 2012 21:48 VoO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Warning may contain polemics and hyperboles
Okay, let's talk about how to get recognized, based on regions:
US
Drama Drama Drama. Grab some tits, get wasted on stream. It may be a cultural thing, but I think you are pretty fucked if you want to be recognized as a North American player by skill only. The only chance for you is to start in a smaller team and/or go to Korea.
EU
Often you only get recognition in a specific region. French players will be recognized within the francophon countries. German players will be recognized in Germny. There not really a united European scene. You play lots of small weekly/monthly tournaments and hope to get a spot in one of the few recognized, featured European tournaments.
RU
By far the strongest region outside of Korea. There are players which are the best of the best but you will never hear their names or see their faces. The language barrier keeps them locked way and often there is not enough money to travel the immense distances to other regions.
KOR
Play hard, play strong and sell yourself entirly to Star2. Since Star2 isn't as big as Star1, the trend will continue and Korean players will become strong mercenaries.
SEA
No chance. You need to get into another region.
RU is like SEA. It has a couple of good players but after all its very weak.
+ Show Spoiler +I played several players who were GM when the RU server was still separated by EU. They were Platin/low Dia in EU after RU and EU server became one.
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i dont know the reason why theres few foreigner progamers or few up and coming. but im 110% sure its not because its too hard to get noticed. its really really easy and anyone could do it that knows what hard work and dedication means
The main reason was mentioned many times: there is no firm perspective. It is much more reliable to graduate. Additionally, the possible profit is not worth the risk. Take for example football: many people try very hard to become pro there. If you fail you are more or less screwed but if you succeed you can earn tons of money quickly.
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On January 25 2012 21:50 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 21:47 Duravi wrote:On January 25 2012 21:22 MorroW wrote:
this article is pretty stupid
its actually the other way around.
koreans have a really hard time getting noticed even when they become gosu. there are hundreds of korean gosus but we really just notice and keep an eye on about 10% of them.
how many foreigner gosus are there? doesnt matter we keep an eye on 100% of them, we even follow players that arent gosus but are "pretty good for foreigner".
they have to practice like crazy, to one day qualify for code a (takes from 1 month to 1 year lol) and then hopefully get noticed.
foreigners get to GM in and sign up for weekly cups, after a while he starts getting noticed because he gets like top8 in weekly cups.
the amount of work you have to do, the cheer skill you need as a korean to get noticed is alot higher than for foreigners. because these up and coming foreigners doesnt have to climb up as high in skill to start winning tournaments.
so its easier in a few ways:
1: you dont need as much skill to win weeklys
2: there are tournaments everywhere you can play in the foreigner scene
3: you get noticed much more easily because foreigner scene obviously follows the foreigner scene more
the reason why theres more koreans on the top, why foreigner teams are recruiting more koreans etc is because they are better and the teams want them to win.
i dont know the reason why theres few foreigner progamers or few up and coming. but im 110% sure its not because its too hard to get noticed. its really really easy and anyone could do it that knows what hard work and dedication means.
take nerchio as an example. he was a noname that practiced hard, became a top foreigner in skill, won a shitton of weekly cups and the he started to get invited to tournaments. and now hes famous and skilled enough to get to lans like homestory cup.
if you know how it works on both sides and u put them up together, you soon realize that its alot easier for foreigners to get famous, money and invites to tournamnets
and on a sidenote. the graph you pulled up is the amount of players on the server, that has nothing to do with the amount of players that is trying to become progamers and famous I agree with most of what you said, but don't you think it is bad that there is such a large emphasis on personality and viewership relative to results in the west? This just goes to prove your point about foreigners having it easier, but I think it is a pathetic state of the community when more people know right now who Incontrol is than Jjakji. It's about entertainment, of which being good is only a portion of. And it's not just relegated to esports. Tim Duncan is one of the greatest, maybe even the greatest, power forwards the NBA has ever seen. His star power is hardly top 15.
Right, but at the end of the day even the most entertaining players have to perform well. The NFL is not going to resign a player who has been awful all season because he brings lots of attention to the team. In SC2 we have several western players who have had very poor results going on a year now but are still with the same team purely because of the viewers they draw. I think it is fundamentally wrong for the focus of s sport to be on entertainment over competition, you may as well go watch WWE in that case where it is no competition, all entertainment, and is not recognized as a sport.
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It's sad but it's true that if often times players get noticed by their personnalities
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I think Morrow said it best, and sadly it is so.
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On January 25 2012 21:53 Qaatar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 21:42 BrosephBrostar wrote:
This is entirely the result of the attitude held by non-Korean teams and the community in general. Teams and fans aren't interested in rookies, or B-teamers, or practice partners. The only thing they care about is star power, so of course there's no progression open for new players.
Ironic... Like Morrow said above you, this kind of "star-gazing" attitude is actually even MORE problematic in Korea. Listen to Hwanni's interview with JP - he says all anyone in Korea cares about is a good game with a famous guy playing. That's the biggest reason why SC2 is so small in Korea right now, and why only the hardcore guys play it. The casuals don't give a shit about MMA or MVP.
That may be the case as far as perception goes, but the practice is completely the opposite. In Korea you can work your way onto a team just by being the guy who 4gates MMA for 6 hours straight until he works a build out. Do you really think a team like EG would even consider paying a guy just to help Idra practice getting bunker rushed?
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On January 25 2012 19:36 Velr wrote:
The problem is that SC2 is boring and not half as exciting as SC/BW or WC3 where even when "fresh".
No wonder people stop playing.
And that's why all the SC2 forums are talking about the thousand of bored SC2 players that are actually switching to the exciting BW and WC3.
Well I think that's not the point...
I think a prestigious foreinger sc2 pro league would motivate the alot EU/NA players.
Even if I don't see all the problems the OP is talking about I think it would be a very nice thing for the foreinger community.
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I laughed when I saw this. Overall shrinking in foreign player pool has NOTHING to do with the pro scene. You think the player base went from 700k to 200k because 500k people figured out they could never compete with the koreans? No, it's because they thought SC2 wasn't a game worth playing and got bored of it.
SERIOUSLY, WTF DOES FOREIGNER VS. KOREAN HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH OVERALL PLAYER POOLS? Not EVERY single player thinks about going pro. Why is this assumption made?? Hell, not even 20% of people think about that. They just want a fun game.
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On January 25 2012 22:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I laughed when I saw this. Overall shrinking in foreign player pool has NOTHING to do with the pro scene. You think the player base went from 700k to 200k because 500k people figured out they could never compete with the koreans? No, it's because they thought SC2 wasn't a game worth playing and got bored of it.
SERIOUSLY, WTF DOES FOREIGNER VS. KOREAN HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH OVERALL PLAYER POOLS? Not EVERY single player thinks about going pro. Why is this assumption made??
You need to read the whole thread, it evolved from the original topic to the "up and coming" players. Which are indirectly related by giving perspectives for players. I don't have data, but I think the player-to-viewer ration in SC2 is the highest in all of current eSports.
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1. eSports has been around for roughly 12-15 years. When you talk about players retiring and no one replacing them, please provide an example. I personally cannot think of a good example of this ever happening.
2. "And there’s no reason this trend won’t continue." Sure there are: expansion pack, times of year (your recent drop off is during the peak of holiday season globally) as well as new and interesting major events growing, more people are going to be interested again. Also, some people (like myself) simply watch, and do not play.
3. You say there are no avenue's for western players to get noticed and make a name for themselves. I cannot disagree with this more, and I will go even further and say that you have it backwards - western players have a far easier time being noticed on a global scale than Koreans do. Here's why:
1. Online cups - the west has them, Korea does not. There are countless showmatches, cups and leagues for a western player, NA or EU, to compete in and gain a name for themselves. They can even be streamed, win some cash, and as you mentioned, become noticed by other players in the tournaments (such as professional gamers).
2. Streaming - you write it off as though only top tier pro-gamers can get viewers. This is simply not true. People follow relevant programming. You mention VIBE being a great streamer, that his quality is very high, and he provides a lot of commentary. In reality, compared to other streamers out there, VIBE offers nothing special or unique nor interesting (at least to me personally, and based on his viewership as stated by you, many others share my opinion on this).
3. Major Tournaments - Both MLG and IPL have open brackets in their events, as well as online qualifiers for IPL. Anyone can play in these tournaments and earn a name for themselves. You say they are dominated by Koreans - so what? Your argument is that the Koreans have a better way of being recognized, so foreigners would have to play against these people anyway in order to become recognized.
I even wrote an article on whether or not "foreign" teams picking up a few Korean players was going to be an issue for western players: http://fnatic.com/feature/9488/are-western-esports-teams-pillaging-korean-teams.html
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Dude, so you wanted that sc2 had the numbers it had from it's launch dade, when it was new and fresh? It will NEVER be the same numbers. This is the second, hardest game to play. People will just quit the game, take a break and get back, or simply not play as much! Server numbers have nothing to do with esports numbers. BW had so few people playing online everyday, compared to the viewer base (10x as bigger), and i don´t see why sc2 is to be different.
League of legends has the numbers it has because it is the most user frendly game ever, and many sc2 players play the crap out of that because its much less tiresome than sc2.
We had the best year in esports ever. And everything is pointing to another brilliant year.
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On January 25 2012 22:07 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 22:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I laughed when I saw this. Overall shrinking in foreign player pool has NOTHING to do with the pro scene. You think the player base went from 700k to 200k because 500k people figured out they could never compete with the koreans? No, it's because they thought SC2 wasn't a game worth playing and got bored of it.
SERIOUSLY, WTF DOES FOREIGNER VS. KOREAN HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH OVERALL PLAYER POOLS? Not EVERY single player thinks about going pro. Why is this assumption made?? You need to read the whole thread, it evolved from the original topic to the "up and coming" players. Which are indirectly related by giving perspectives for players. I don't have data, but I think the player-to-viewer ration in SC2 is the highest in all of current eSports.
Uh, I did, and he tried to use that fact to support his argument with it when it's completely dumb to do so. The two are not related. That's what I was pointing out.
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I don't agree with OP. There are so much daily cups going on on NA and EU, you can play tournaments and get noticed. If you have a good ladder ranking and you post result in online tournaments, you will get noticed by team.
Also western teams are often very open, if you feel that you have the skill, you can contact them. Western teams are always looking for young guns, mTw and eSahara have started B teams that are looking for new players, and help improving their game.
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EPT
