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On January 26 2012 03:32 rift wrote:
"We have real lives to attend to."
Everyone does. But only some are willing to make the complete sacrifice to be the best.
Most people aren't aware of the extent of Korean work ethic. Middle school students are sent to hagwons, or cram schools until 11 PM (23:00). Fucked up, but it gets results.
Taken to an extreme: when Flash joined KTF as a rookie he would practice 20 hours a day until they forced him to sleep, then he would get up and do it again.
20 hours a day? is there a source O_O
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i do not agree with your view that korea has new faces popping up all the time where as the foreigners dont. if you pay attention to the EU scene it is still quite virbant and we have new up and coming players all the time whilst extremely exciting up and comers pop up every few months. recently its been the hype around the young belgium protoss feast. a few months back it was titan, verdi, bling and many others. if we went even further back it was satiini/happy and who could forget elfi. for me its clear you arent very well informed on that specific issue.
p.s ive left so many names out but i think ive made my point.
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On January 26 2012 02:56 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 02:48 Elem wrote:On January 26 2012 02:41 DoomsVille wrote:On January 26 2012 02:39 Elem wrote:On January 26 2012 02:35 DoomsVille wrote:On January 26 2012 01:10 Ballack wrote:On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:
It’s no secret that the way to win is to hire Koreans. They are the best players in the world, no doubt about it. Even Code A Koreans are better than the majority of foreigners. I'm gonna cherrypick something I found silly. Did you know Code A Koreans are better than the majority of Korean players as well? To end a paragraph with such a lousy point diminishes your validity greatly. You do bring up some facts, but there are numerous flaws in your logic throughout your post (imo). Also the high amount of attention given to the top players work as an incentive for lesser known players to keep working hard so they can be the top player one day. I meant majority of top tier foreign progamers. It is only an incentive for lesser known players if they can reach that level of stardom one day. I see very few actually accomplish that. In 2011, there was only a single player that really achieved superstardom status (stephano). The rest of the "stars" were there pre-2011 (IdrA, Huk, White-ra, Destiny, NaNiwa, etc.). NaNi (and I think ThorZaIN should be included) were relative unknowns pre 2011 tbfh, but I see your point. Before, NaNi was mainly seen as a bm teamhopper really, not some superstar. Not until spring 2011 did people see how sick he was. And he was still pretty good in 2010. Yeah, but far from a superstar.  More on the level of "known" like say, Kas. Or maybe Socke. So many people who underestimate that guy. :o You know what it took to get him to the superstardom level? An open tournament with qualifiers :D (TSL3). That and MLG Dallas which is also open but at the time wasn't filled with a dozen Koreans. That's also what it took ThorZain (TSL3). That's also what it took Stephano (IPL3). It's crazy to think that ThorZain might not even have been noticed if he TSL3 didn't exist. Sure he would probably have won something at some point eventually, but we need more events to bring some of these guys to the forefront. This is why we need more qualifiers and less invites. Yeah OFC, I agree with your points 100%, just being picky on the NaNi/ThorZaIN comment lol :D
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The reason that starcraft is doomed is because it just takes too much effort to maintain a high level of skill (high rate of skill deterioration), and its extremely damaging to the ego of most people when you lose directly as a result of your actions in a 1v1 situation. The stress from losing remains very high for all levels of play, and I think that the most successful players all share the ability to not be upset by losses. I consider myself a cool person and sometimes when I lose a few in a row I still get very upset and these times are when I most consider switching to a more relaxed game (i'm a high masters player not a scrub). It also sucks that you have to devote constant large amounts of time to starcraft or you will really lose alot of your skills (mostly macro).
Most online games which attract casual playesr have an environment where the player can't be directly blamed for a loss or at least can share the blame around among a few people. I think this legitimately does result in more fun for most people. What actually attracts me to starcraft is the individual aspect because I can get very good on my own without needing a team that I have to commit to a demanding practice schedule with, but most gamers are not as time restricted as me.
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On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:EDIT 5: Open qualifiers are what has made stars out of anyone that has risen in the SC2 scene. Stephano qualifying for IPL3 and erupting into stardom, ThorZain for TSL3, NaNiwa for TSL3/MLG Dallas. For the health of the scene we need more qualifiers and less inviting.
This This This and This
Invites are killing it for me. For like this new Iron Squid Tourney 16 Players 14 Invites and 2 able to qualify. Two of which will be Koreans. I love high level play more than anything but the story that TSL3 brought out was amazing.
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TSL 3 with Thorzain changed my life forever. I'm not even kidding.
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It's all mental mates, obviously the competition is there, the skill slopes are there, but the only source of stress is yourself and whoever understands that to win you have to work and fight and that you do both for and against yourself, will remain on a clear and straight path to victory. I mean, it's cool to analyze everything as deeply as possible, especially, regarding this topic, considering all the cultural influence and such things, but at the end of the day, once your actions, thoughts, plans become more introspective than extrospective, you will have a much easier way of achieving your goals (assuming you have any, which is a completely different matter).
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On January 26 2012 03:36 johnnywup wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 03:32 rift wrote:
"We have real lives to attend to."
Everyone does. But only some are willing to make the complete sacrifice to be the best.
Most people aren't aware of the extent of Korean work ethic. Middle school students are sent to hagwons, or cram schools until 11 PM (23:00). Fucked up, but it gets results.
Taken to an extreme: when Flash joined KTF as a rookie he would practice 20 hours a day until they forced him to sleep, then he would get up and do it again.
20 hours a day? is there a source O_O
He didn't practice 20 hours a day but he was a full time high school student so he had to put in practice time after doing all his hw etc. That adds up to about 20 hours for school + Sc.
Flash's parents didn't want him to be a progamer but he made a deal that if he didn't win a major title after 1 year he would quit and focus on school full time.
Edit:
+ Show Spoiler +He did win that OSL btw so this story has a happy ending.
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On January 26 2012 03:41 aFganFlyTrap wrote:
i do not agree with your view that korea has new faces popping up all the time where as the foreigners dont. if you pay attention to the EU scene it is still quite virbant and we have new up and coming players all the time whilst extremely exciting up and comers pop up every few months. recently its been the hype around the young belgium protoss feast. a few months back it was titan, verdi, bling and many others. if we went even further back it was satiini/happy and who could forget elfi. for me its clear you arent very well informed on that specific issue.
p.s ive left so many names out but i think ive made my point.
I do agree that the european scene is much healthier than the NA scene (I think largely because of the millions of online cups running all the time). And the fact that there is a team house starting in poland bodes well for the EU scene. I do think my post applies much more to NA than EU (but to an extent EU as well).
And I know all about satiini, happy and elfi. I followed WC3 very closely and all 3 have their origins in WC3. Just keep in mind that none of those 3 were "up and comers". They were very well established in the RTS scene in EU in WC3. But yes, the EU scene is much better off than the current NA one.
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While I agree with several points listed (mainly more qualifiers are needed, less invites), the reason foreigners fall behind has nothing to do with popularity or lack of said tournaments.
It's because Koreans work harder at it and have more coordinated teams. I have had the pleasure of having most of the NA scene and KOR scene on my real-id friends list for quite awhile now. Koreans are on A LOT more doing productive stuff A LOT more. The foreigners that are practicing as hard as Koreans are the top guys anyways (HuK, IdrA, Naniwa etc).
That was what impressed me most about HuK back in the beta, you could log on at about any time of the day and HuK would be there grinding out game after game after game, 10-14 hours a day. After a full year-ish of that on a shit comp, he got his chance. Because of hard work, not because of random luck.
Most foreigners are too busy worrying about what is said about them on TL (I can't even count how many NA pros search TL for their name every day multiple times a day and read every post about themselves), watching streams, playing Nexus Wars or some other stupid custom, playing team games, playing other games (*cough*LoL*cough), or just generally not being productive.
There is tons of foreigners that have the potential to be the next HuK or IdrA, but until they stop wasting endless time doing stuff that's not practicing they won't push it to that next level.
With regards to teams, foreigner teams are nothing more then a unified shirt to wear for most foreign teams. They don't coordinate practice, they don't work on certain things ("here you bunker rush me 100 times in a row vs my hatch first"), they have no head coaches, and just generally are just a guaranteed way to make some money and highly uncoordinated mess. Of course some teams like EG are working to solve that problem, but most top teams are not.
Korean teams on the other hand are unified, practice together a stupid amount, they work on certain things together, and are the true embodiment of a team. When they want to work on a build they don't go ladder vs random scrubs, they grab a teammate and say "you do this, I want to try something" or sit and discuss it with the coach of the team.
Those two factors alone are what holds the foreigner scene back. The players that are willing to give that level of dedication to SC2 are the same ones that are in Korea already. Guys like HuK, IdrA, DesRow, IdrA, etc. It's not just random luck, it's a year + of hard work.
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On January 25 2012 19:09 Soma.bokforlag wrote:am i doing something wrong or is the graph in the first post wrong? according to these numbers http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/alltheres still many many more players in america and europe compared to korea
Did anybody adress this? The numbers dont fit the OPs graph. The foreigner scene is still bigger than the korean by a good margin.
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On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VIkFD.png)
Talk about a poorly made graph... :/
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On January 26 2012 02:34 mbr2321 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 02:27 Al Bundy wrote:
Foreigner or not, this is the STARCRAFT 2 scene aka the 2nd most competitive esport. Players have to sacrifice everything in order to be the best at starcraft. if they're not willing to do that, and they're content with being "average" then it's a shame.
Nonetheless the #1 problem is that 99% of relevant tournaments are invite only.
the #2 problem is that foreign teams prefer to recruit top koreans instead of recruiting up and coming foreigners in order to train them and release their potential That's just not true at all. MLG, DreamHack, IEM, and IPL all have open qualifier brackets. NASL, HSC, and SCI and Team Leagues are the only relevant tournaments I can think of that are invite only. I didn't even mention Playhem Dailies, Korean Weeklies, or any of the other tournaments featured on the right side toolbar.
HCS had online qualifiers for each regions (2 or 3 slots each) with paid flights/stays for the winners. But I don't think the DH/MLG open qualifier/brackets are a possibility (unless they live close by) for some amateur players without the financial backings of a team cause you have to fly through half europe/usa (and carry your whole PC with your for the DH BYOC qualifier).
To get lesser known players into your events online qualifiers are nice imo. While I think IEM is subpar compard to other bigger tournaments in many degrees, that they select players via qualifiers always makes nice storylines/surprises 
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On January 26 2012 04:28 Chewie wrote:Did anybody adress this? The numbers dont fit the OPs graph. The foreigner scene is still bigger than the korean by a good margin.
His graph is of all brackets including team games, which is kinda funny when the OP is talking about foreigners dwindling in 1v1 vs Korea while the opposite is the case.
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You guys are getting too caught up on the graph/statistics. Let's focus on the concept.
It's hard for foreigners to make a name for themselves because of invites and a lack of opportunity to showcase their talents. Focus on that and the issues around that.
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On January 26 2012 04:37 Neelia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 02:34 mbr2321 wrote:On January 26 2012 02:27 Al Bundy wrote:
Foreigner or not, this is the STARCRAFT 2 scene aka the 2nd most competitive esport. Players have to sacrifice everything in order to be the best at starcraft. if they're not willing to do that, and they're content with being "average" then it's a shame.
Nonetheless the #1 problem is that 99% of relevant tournaments are invite only.
the #2 problem is that foreign teams prefer to recruit top koreans instead of recruiting up and coming foreigners in order to train them and release their potential That's just not true at all. MLG, DreamHack, IEM, and IPL all have open qualifier brackets. NASL, HSC, and SCI and Team Leagues are the only relevant tournaments I can think of that are invite only. I didn't even mention Playhem Dailies, Korean Weeklies, or any of the other tournaments featured on the right side toolbar. HCS had online qualifiers for each regions (2 or 3 slots each) with paid flights/stays for the winners. But I don't think the DH/MLG open qualifier/brackets are a possibility (unless they live close by) for some amateur players without the financial backings of a team cause you have to fly through half europe/usa (and carry your whole PC with your for the DH BYOC qualifier). To get lesser known players into your events online qualifiers are nice imo. While I think IEM is subpar compard to other bigger tournaments in many degrees, that they select players via qualifiers always makes nice storylines/surprises
Agreed. The the majority of IEMs have some neat storylines or some lesser known players emerging.
IEM Cologne - MaNa (although this ones a bit of a stretch since he was pretty well known already)
IEM Guangzhou - Elfi
IEM NYC - Gatored
IEM Kiev - Feast
Anyways, qualifiers are always great at bringing new talent to the forefront. There are players out there that are as good a the top tier foreigners, they just never get a chance to shine.
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TLDR:
Open qualifying rounds region-locked, with only x/y/z qualifiers from KR/NA/EU.
People wishing to go pro need to sacrifice and put the work in to do it, rather than complaining they're giving too much up.
Regarding top tournaments and invites:
Invites aren't as bad as people say - but the invites at least could be based off actual reasons for inviting (i.e. they came top x in MLG/GSL/etc) rather than on the name alone.
Qualifier's probably should be region-locked (or at least a person may only apply to qualify from one of the regions, not multiple) but it must be done in a correct way.
Note: I've made comparisons like the following in previous threads and believe the core of the competition is the best for all parties involved. Here goes:
Base it on the UEFA Champions League. I have no idea exactly how their co-efficients work in order to rank each Country and each of their teams (for those unfamiliar the "better" nations get more teams seeded directly into the finals and qualifying, while the worst nations at the very least get their top team(s) entered into qualifying), but it would be hard to argue against the rankings at any point in time.
"Region-locked" open qualifying could be done as follows:
Instead of 8 from each of SEA/NA/EU/KR, how about something more like 14 from KR, 6 from NA, 6 from EU, 6 from SEA? Obviously adjust these ratios according to how "good" the regions are relatively when/if they change and scale them depending on the size of the tournament. This could change to 28KR/14EU/12NA/10SEA for a 64 player tournament.
Some stipulations could exist such as pro-players are seeded into the 2nd or 3rd round of the open bracket (as happens in Tennis Masters series').
There may be some problems with this such as only 1 good NA player enters, rest are from bronze and take up 7 spots that could have been filled by A-Class Koreans. But whatever, It's just another format idea that could (and I believe should) be used and refined by actual tournaments. I don't want to spend time figuring out every possible hypothetical scenario that may occur in a tournament that doesn't exist - that's just my idea for a qualifying structure. Also for the record, I heavily favour the tiers used in Code-S this system but that's another discussion I'm sure...
And the issue on "team opportunities":
Ok so with that out of the way, it is pretty hard for people to be noticed. In Korea at least they do have the opportunity to "easily" get to the Code-A qualifiers and make a name for themselves by making it through. Trouble with this being there are so many more and better players trying the same thing. A lot of hard work and dedication is required be good enough to get that far.
Similarly, in EU/NA you need a lot of effort to improve to a level that you're competing for a top-4 or higher finish consistently in daily/weekly tournaments. After that you have open qualifiers and brackets for the larger tournaments that aren't invite only.
Either way you need a lot of hard work and dedication to become good enough to become the best in the region and along with that you'll get recognition. I honestly do not believe that people who are saying things like "There are more team houses in Korea for the Koreans to join that we do not have over here" would actually like to live in some of the conditions that those Korean pro-gamers live under just to get better at the game. I would also not be surprised if it was illegal to have the same/similar team houses here in the West due to Human Rights laws, or Health and Safety laws (max. number of occupants/tenants).
As others have said, Koreans don't magically get good enough at the game to live in a team house, they put the game first above other things. Reducing/halting all social lives, jobs, other hobbies - everything is given up. Actually, this could be said about any sport - any JOB! Sure there are more grassroots opportunities available for people taking up sports but to make it big, huge sacrifices must be made. If you want a career change mid-life you have to work your way up by studying again in your spare time potentially giving up all other hobbies and social life until you're at a level to quit your old/current job and risk it in your new career.
If pro/semi pro players really want to go pro sacrifices need to be made. Anyone with a normal job can easily practice at least 4 hours a day Monday - Friday and more on weekends, with very little sacrifice. Cutting down the amount of hours, or getting a job that allows more free time to practice would be a good start if you really want to compete at the top level against those in the open qualifiers/dailies.
I'm going to assume someone may bring up a fact about "real" sportsmen not having to train 14 hours a day to be top of the top unlike in SC, but they sacrifice a lot of other things such as physical exertion, strict diets, etc.
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Obviously you are a bit more experienced than me, being high masters, i'm not there yet. But for me, I find that the most time consuming part of SC2 is not necessarily the mechanics but the meta game. If you don't have time to play hours a day, and analyze your replays, and keep up on the current professional builds and transitions you will be left behind in a matter of days or weeks. Obviously the metagame isn't changing up so quickly that a one week break will cause you to get demoted but you might notice that builds you've relied upon and practiced extensively are suddenly resulting in a lot of build order losses. Like for instance, I used a reactor hellion opening into a 3 tank push a lot in TvZ and then suddenly a few weeks ago Zergs started CRUSHING my push that would typically win me the game or do heavy game altering damage. I think the metagame shifted a bit and zergs started getting mass slings with upgrades early and this mass of units simply overwhelms my push that would usually hit when zergs were droning. To me this is the biggest problem with not having ample time to devote to SC2.
Oops, that's all pretty off topic. On topic.. :p, I agree with the OP in that the NA region is very underdeveloped in terms of a pro scene. The only weekly tournament here is the Playhems and they are completely dominated by Korean players. I never understood why Blizzard didn't implement an ingame tournament system akin to a poker site. It'd be easy if you could just sign up and play tournaments through Bnet and it'd give Blizzard an easy way to manage tournaments. However, I think a lot of the reason for the undervelopment of NA SC2 can be attributed to the culture here. Korea and to a lesser extent, EU have had a much more established history of RTS games as a competitive sport. I know it's been said before, but many of the top NA players are college and high school students. Many of these players have no desire to pursue a profession in gaming, they play for fun, not for money. I think it's safe to assume that most of the top players are very intelligent with hardworking personalities, these types of people usually have much more stable and lucrative long term goals than scraping out a living playing SC2. Even if youre the top in NA, it's generally a much better life choice to finish college and get a real job and just play SC2 in your free time.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On January 26 2012 04:59 DoomsVille wrote:
You guys are getting too caught up on the graph/statistics. Let's focus on the concept.
It's hard for foreigners to make a name for themselves because of invites and a lack of opportunity to showcase their talents. Focus on that and the issues around that.
Foreigners have more opportunities, if anything, koreans are the ones that rely on invites. IEM has qualifiers and MLG is open to everyone. There are many online cups for foreigners and more tournaments in the western scene.
GSL's happen every 2 months.
discuss.
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On January 26 2012 05:33 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:59 DoomsVille wrote:
You guys are getting too caught up on the graph/statistics. Let's focus on the concept.
It's hard for foreigners to make a name for themselves because of invites and a lack of opportunity to showcase their talents. Focus on that and the issues around that. Foreigners have more opportunities, if anything, koreans are the ones that rely on invites. IEM has qualifiers and MLG is open to everyone. There are many online cups for foreigners and more tournaments in the western scene. GSL's happen every 2 months. discuss.
It's pretty difficult to play both EU and NA tournaments if you're on a semi regular sleep schedule. This limits the number of tournament options to foreigner players a lot. And yes, the Korean scene is pretty scarce in terms of tournaments. Outside of Korean Weeklys, GSTL and GSL, what Korean tournaments are there?
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EPT
