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On January 26 2012 01:53 PET wrote:I know what the OP of this Thread means. I'm also sick of Invite Tournaments. Yea sometimes they bring more viewers when you have Koreans, ok, but sometimes they are to much. This is why in the League I recently organized I held 19 Qualifiers for several countries in the Europe. I had a Hungarian qualifier where I saw some really talented players like  Purple,  StuntR &  Breach. StuntR managed to qualify. I had a Czech qualifier where Thebis managed to qualify even that players like Devil, Harpner, & nukestrike. I had a Polish qualifier where I got Indy & Forte. I had French qualifiers where I saw Eeel and SonG. SonG actually managed to beat Laukyo and MoMaN and NeOAnGeL. I had a Bulgarian qualifier where we had insignia. I had 2 Italian qualifiers where I got StarEagle and ZyM a 16 years old player. etc There are shitload of talented players out there, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and nobody will ever give a fuck. This is why you always see 80% Koreans. This is why you always see Invite players. Don't blame this on the tournament organizers. I tried and man it sucked. While I think some players apreciated what I tried to do, I know that Hungarians got inspired and they started their own Hungarian League, this is not going to work because the mentality of the VIEWERS can not change. And no, this didn't sucked because the players I had. I had some really awesome players. It sucked because no one was interested. Popular players are always going to get the attention. Popular players are not always the good players. There are plenty of examples which I'm not going to give ... because if you say something critical about someone popular you get the "community" on your head. Anyway, the league finals were won by Beastyqt, I player I have been casting since 2010. So even if you want to create something to motivate the players, in the end you will not succeed because the viewers will not be interested.
I sympathize, but you can't just blame the viewers. THey want some degree of familiarity. So a tournament with hald known and half known might be cool. Especially if these guys are as good as you say they are.
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Foreigner or not, this is the STARCRAFT 2 scene aka the 2nd most competitive esport. Players have to sacrifice everything in order to be the best at starcraft. if they're not willing to do that, and they're content with being "average" then it's a shame.
Nonetheless the #1 problem is that 99% of relevant tournaments are invite only.
the #2 problem is that foreign teams prefer to recruit top koreans instead of recruiting up and coming foreigners in order to train them and release their potential
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This is actually a huge problem. I would say that certain teams do have training programs, such as Complexity, which had created new talents like gowser. Furthermore, there is the CSL, which could develop homegrown talent. But as Idra once stated, the costs of raising a foreign player and developing them into a champion is too high for many teams, and teams would be better off buying a Korean.
What the foreigner scene needs are ways to develop talent. For many of the major sports here in the US, there are high school teams, where the best players get recruited to college teams, then the best players from the college teams get signed onto pro teams in the NBA or NFL.
We need to focus more attention on leagues like the CSL, where players can be part-time players and students. It's just too risky to go all-in as a pro-gamer, since you would give up school and your career.
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I have a friend who played like 8-10 game on the ladder. And quit starcraft after because the game was to humiliating
for him.
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On January 26 2012 02:27 Al Bundy wrote:
Foreigner or not, this is the STARCRAFT 2 scene aka the 2nd most competitive esport. Players have to sacrifice everything in order to be the best at starcraft. if they're not willing to do that, and they're content with being "average" then it's a shame.
Nonetheless the #1 problem is that 99% of relevant tournaments are invite only.
the #2 problem is that foreign teams prefer to recruit top koreans instead of recruiting up and coming foreigners in order to train them and release their potential
That's just not true at all. MLG, DreamHack, IEM, and IPL all have open qualifier brackets. NASL, HSC, and SCI and Team Leagues are the only relevant tournaments I can think of that are invite only.
I didn't even mention Playhem Dailies, Korean Weeklies, or any of the other tournaments featured on the right side toolbar.
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Well its pretty obvious why there are less players now, SC2 is a videogame and 90% of its buyers are casual gamers. As with any game, you lose interest, and this is especially true in starcraft. For serious gamers and pros, patchs make all the difference, but most gamers probably didn't even notice immortal range upgrades, ghost emps range changes, ect. its the same game to them, except to them, its becoming less fun because the competition is getting harder. Thus they lose interest after a while like any casual gamer. my roommate hasn't played a real game of starcraft since summer. And when he does, he plays custom games.
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On January 26 2012 01:10 Ballack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:
It’s no secret that the way to win is to hire Koreans. They are the best players in the world, no doubt about it. Even Code A Koreans are better than the majority of foreigners. I'm gonna cherrypick something I found silly. Did you know Code A Koreans are better than the majority of Korean players as well? To end a paragraph with such a lousy point diminishes your validity greatly. You do bring up some facts, but there are numerous flaws in your logic throughout your post (imo). Also the high amount of attention given to the top players work as an incentive for lesser known players to keep working hard so they can be the top player one day.
I meant majority of top tier foreign progamers.
It is only an incentive for lesser known players if they can reach that level of stardom one day. I see very few actually accomplish that. In 2011, there was only a single player that really achieved superstardom status (stephano). The rest of the "stars" were there pre-2011 (IdrA, Huk, White-ra, Destiny, NaNiwa, etc.).
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On January 26 2012 02:35 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 01:10 Ballack wrote:On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:
It’s no secret that the way to win is to hire Koreans. They are the best players in the world, no doubt about it. Even Code A Koreans are better than the majority of foreigners. I'm gonna cherrypick something I found silly. Did you know Code A Koreans are better than the majority of Korean players as well? To end a paragraph with such a lousy point diminishes your validity greatly. You do bring up some facts, but there are numerous flaws in your logic throughout your post (imo). Also the high amount of attention given to the top players work as an incentive for lesser known players to keep working hard so they can be the top player one day. I meant majority of top tier foreign progamers. It is only an incentive for lesser known players if they can reach that level of stardom one day. I see very few actually accomplish that. In 2011, there was only a single player that really achieved superstardom status (stephano). The rest of the "stars" were there pre-2011 (IdrA, Huk, White-ra, Destiny, NaNiwa, etc.). NaNi (and I think ThorZaIN should be included) were relative unknowns pre 2011 tbfh, but I see your point. Before, NaNi was mainly seen as a bm teamhopper really, not some superstar. Not until spring 2011 did people see how sick he was.
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On January 26 2012 02:39 Elem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 02:35 DoomsVille wrote:On January 26 2012 01:10 Ballack wrote:On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:
It’s no secret that the way to win is to hire Koreans. They are the best players in the world, no doubt about it. Even Code A Koreans are better than the majority of foreigners. I'm gonna cherrypick something I found silly. Did you know Code A Koreans are better than the majority of Korean players as well? To end a paragraph with such a lousy point diminishes your validity greatly. You do bring up some facts, but there are numerous flaws in your logic throughout your post (imo). Also the high amount of attention given to the top players work as an incentive for lesser known players to keep working hard so they can be the top player one day. I meant majority of top tier foreign progamers. It is only an incentive for lesser known players if they can reach that level of stardom one day. I see very few actually accomplish that. In 2011, there was only a single player that really achieved superstardom status (stephano). The rest of the "stars" were there pre-2011 (IdrA, Huk, White-ra, Destiny, NaNiwa, etc.). NaNi (and I think ThorZaIN should be included) were relative unknowns pre 2011 tbfh, but I see your point. Before, NaNi was mainly seen as a bm teamhopper really, not some superstar. Not until spring 2011 did people see how sick he was.
And he was still pretty good in 2010.
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The problem is not just a lack of goals but social interaction in-game. Starcraft is a very lonely game and it's pretty hard to play such a hard game every day loosing and still have motivation. The reason people prefer games like CoD, BF3 or LoL is the social aspect, blizzard has completely ignored this, shit B.net for most of SC2 so far and no clan support. Clan support is REALLY important to new player looking for groups of people to play with, it keeps you interested and motivated. That's the reason I quit anyway, I get to talk to people about Pro SC2 but not actually playing SC2 so now I just watch and play BF3 competitively instead.
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On January 26 2012 02:41 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 02:39 Elem wrote:On January 26 2012 02:35 DoomsVille wrote:On January 26 2012 01:10 Ballack wrote:On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:
It’s no secret that the way to win is to hire Koreans. They are the best players in the world, no doubt about it. Even Code A Koreans are better than the majority of foreigners. I'm gonna cherrypick something I found silly. Did you know Code A Koreans are better than the majority of Korean players as well? To end a paragraph with such a lousy point diminishes your validity greatly. You do bring up some facts, but there are numerous flaws in your logic throughout your post (imo). Also the high amount of attention given to the top players work as an incentive for lesser known players to keep working hard so they can be the top player one day. I meant majority of top tier foreign progamers. It is only an incentive for lesser known players if they can reach that level of stardom one day. I see very few actually accomplish that. In 2011, there was only a single player that really achieved superstardom status (stephano). The rest of the "stars" were there pre-2011 (IdrA, Huk, White-ra, Destiny, NaNiwa, etc.). NaNi (and I think ThorZaIN should be included) were relative unknowns pre 2011 tbfh, but I see your point. Before, NaNi was mainly seen as a bm teamhopper really, not some superstar. Not until spring 2011 did people see how sick he was. And he was still pretty good in 2010. Yeah, but far from a superstar.  More on the level of "known" like say, Kas. Or maybe Socke. So many people who underestimate that guy. :o
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On January 25 2012 19:16 xrapture wrote:
Sc2 is just too hard. Why play SC2 when there is a myriad of easy games. New players play for a little and are put off. There's really no reason to play a game with such a steep learning curve and most players in the foreign scene probably don't know that pro SC players exist.
I see the trend continuing. Even myself, a master's player, have found myself thinking, "eh fuck it. I'll just play MW3 or Skyrim isntead-- SC is too stressful." Video games are for entertainment, not stress.
This. Where is the casual element to sc2 that allows viewers to stay engaged in actually playing? Think about how ridiculous the ladder system actually is compared to precedent set by tons of other online games. Not only is the only major online structure through matchmaking, but you essentially can't play a game thats not a custom without affecting your rank. Other games either have unranked matchmaking or a cumulative ranking system. There's no unranked matchmaking and unless a player is incredibly set on investing time into a game with no certainty of improving (not part of gaming culture in US) it jus gets tiring.
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On January 26 2012 02:48 Elem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 02:41 DoomsVille wrote:On January 26 2012 02:39 Elem wrote:On January 26 2012 02:35 DoomsVille wrote:On January 26 2012 01:10 Ballack wrote:On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:
It’s no secret that the way to win is to hire Koreans. They are the best players in the world, no doubt about it. Even Code A Koreans are better than the majority of foreigners. I'm gonna cherrypick something I found silly. Did you know Code A Koreans are better than the majority of Korean players as well? To end a paragraph with such a lousy point diminishes your validity greatly. You do bring up some facts, but there are numerous flaws in your logic throughout your post (imo). Also the high amount of attention given to the top players work as an incentive for lesser known players to keep working hard so they can be the top player one day. I meant majority of top tier foreign progamers. It is only an incentive for lesser known players if they can reach that level of stardom one day. I see very few actually accomplish that. In 2011, there was only a single player that really achieved superstardom status (stephano). The rest of the "stars" were there pre-2011 (IdrA, Huk, White-ra, Destiny, NaNiwa, etc.). NaNi (and I think ThorZaIN should be included) were relative unknowns pre 2011 tbfh, but I see your point. Before, NaNi was mainly seen as a bm teamhopper really, not some superstar. Not until spring 2011 did people see how sick he was. And he was still pretty good in 2010. Yeah, but far from a superstar. More on the level of "known" like say, Kas. Or maybe Socke. So many people who underestimate that guy. :o
You know what it took to get him to the superstardom level? An open tournament with qualifiers :D (TSL3). That and MLG Dallas which is also open but at the time wasn't filled with a dozen Koreans. That's also what it took ThorZain (TSL3). That's also what it took Stephano (IPL3). It's crazy to think that ThorZain might not even have been noticed if he TSL3 didn't exist. Sure he would probably have won something at some point eventually, but we need more events to bring some of these guys to the forefront. This is why we need more qualifiers and less invites.
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China6330 Posts
Nice write up, directly to what really needs sth. to be done here, or can we see yet another HuK rising in the near future?
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wow. I'm not really informed enough to comment on this, but I will say that this is something I'll keep in mind.
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with two expansions to come i wouldnt worry for now about the player pool
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Respect for Idra and Huk and all the guys putting in their time.
I did not know it was THAT hard. I heard about koreans putting in some ridiculous time but jesus... it's like a competitive hell over there.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On January 25 2012 18:47 DoomsVille wrote:
Let’s try to figure out why. First I’m going to paint you a picture of a Korean that is trying to go pro. He’ll start off a scrub; 4gating his way up the ladder. He’ll land in a lower league and slowly start working his way up. Along the way he has tangible goals; first to get into gold, then platinum, then diamond and finally masters. What happens then? He is ultra-motivated to quality for Code B. Code B represents ~ 1500 of the best Korean players on the ladder (which I believe is mid-high masters on the ladder). Once he finally reaches that plateau he can compete in the Code A qualifiers. He’s going to go to a huge LAN event and have a chance to play against players like Boxer and LosirA. How does that not motivate an individual? I might be playing Boxer next week. I’m going to fucking practice 24 hours a day until then. Once you’re at this level, you have a new goal. Now you want to be noticed by team coaches and players on ladder and maybe get yourself into a B-team house (like ProS). Hell, you might be good enough to skip a step and get straight into a proteam house. There are probably a hundred spots available and considering many players have multiple accounts, I’d venture to guess that anyone that is GM on the Korean ladder is skilled enough to belong in a team house. Now you’re playing in the big leagues. In the team house you’re practicing everyday and will keep going until you can finally beat MMA or DRG or whoever else is in your house.
What’s my point here? There are clear goals along the way. Motivation comes from having a goal. It’s impossible to motivate yourself without a goal. You know who succeeds when they want to lose weight? The guy that says I will lose 5 lbs in a month. Not the guy that says I’m going to lose a ton of weight brah (partially because the second guy sounds like an idiot).
Let’s look at the other end of the spectrum: the life of a foreigner. I work my way up the ladder. I’m masters now fuck yea. I’m going to post this on reddit and be 23rd on the front page of r/Starcraft for about an hour. Sweet. Now what? Might as well keep laddering and get to GM. Awesome I’m GM now. It took forever but I’ve finally done it. You know how much karma this is going to get me on reddit? A ton. I’ll be right at the top for half a day! This seems facetious but it is actual reality. A high masters/low GM player on the NA (and to a lesser extent EU) server have no way of getting noticed. They have no tangible goals. Koreans know exactly what they need to do to get into Code B. They have a very real opportunity to get into a team house once they get there. Foreigners on the other hand have nothing. They have no clear avenue to get into progaming. It’s too much of a crapshoot on the foreigner side. It’s way harder to get noticed and even if you do, it’s so hard to actually get onto a foreign team or into a major tournament.
this is what you think happens from your point of view; but I see it different.
you list one Korean house (ProS) that isn't really associated with a pro team and you think there are houses like that everywhere where a person can get into easily if motivated enough. They might be the only house other than the Pro-gaming team houses. It's also funny that you think they would get extra motivated if they get a chance to play someone like losira or boxer. In online cups, there are good players in which a non-korean can play against well known players too. MLG tournament format allows this to happen via open bracket; I would even say that getting out of open bracket is easier than qualifying for code A.
If you want to look at vibe as an example (like you stated), he has never made it out of open bracket (MLG). Then there are Koreans that are better than him and can't get out of code B; but Vibe is more well known and has more stream viewers.
"Koreans know exactly what they need to do to get into Code B. They have a very real opportunity to get into a team house once they get there."
You make it sound like code B is a huge goal, it's not lol. You also make it sound like there are gaming houses everywhere in Korea and one who is simply "good" enough can get into one. If someone is good enough to be GM in Korea, then if that person were to be from NA or EU, they would be on a team most likely. What's the difference to getting good enough skill level to be GM in Korea and joining a team house and a foreigner that plays at a GM in Korea and joining a foreign team. The motivation is the same if not more for the foreigner; simply because that means it is easier to be a top foreigner than a top Korean (also, top foreigners get travel and salary being on a good team). There are a lot of good Koreans that are better than foreigners who are well known and who get more opportunities. Why is it that a lot of Korean players are looking for foreign teams? You have GSL every two months now, how is that more motivating for a Korean?
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im not sure lower level koreans are as motivated as you think
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"We have real lives to attend to."
Everyone does. But only some are willing to make the complete sacrifice to be the best.
Most people aren't aware of the extent of Korean work ethic. Middle school students are sent to hagwons, or cram schools until 11 PM (23:00). Fucked up, but it gets results.
Taken to an extreme: when Flash joined KTF as a rookie he would practice 20 hours a day until they forced him to sleep, then he would get up and do it again.
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EPT
