EPThttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304299¤tpage=13#243
Discuss.
Maybe we will discover aLive didn't really leave TSL after all!
TSL claims Fnatic tampered with Alive, Fnatic denies - Pag…
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Discussing the controversy and stating your opinions in a constructive way is fine, but there will be bans for any player/organization bashing without anything to substantiate it. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304299¤tpage=13#243 Discuss. Maybe we will discover aLive didn't really leave TSL after all! | ||
Fionn
United States23455 Posts
They have the talent. | ||
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Catatonic
United States699 Posts
[QUOTE]On January 18 2012 14:55 Goibon wrote: I'm sick of all these foreign teams hurting ESPORTS. Do they just not give a shit? -_-[/QUOTE] I think you my good sir need to be more informed? How in gods green earth does a foreigner team picking up a Korean (that they're saying THEY NEVER PICKED UP) hurting eSprts exactly? I fail to see how your statement is viable even slightly. If anything koreans playing on foreigner teams helps eSports by getting the names of those players out their by being able to send them to more tournaments. Honeslty I can't name half of slayers though I can name almost the whole team of Complexity, Quantic, Dignitas, EG, Fnatic, and TL all of whom have koreans on their team (minus Complexity). Yet all of these teams are helping eSports so how is this hurting at all? | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
That is tampering and it's been going on forever when it comes to the Western teams. -_- Guys like Lee never dealt with it before. He never had to put up with that shit during his BW tenure. Contracts basically mean shit in the West. You think KeSPA would put up with that shit? Fuck no. Should teams have to have eyes at the back of their heads instead of focusing on their day-to-day operation? It's an unfortunate circumstance. The Korean teams just don't have the money. The West and travelling abroad is a much more appealing environment and yes, it gets their names out here. Much more opportunity; however, you should still abide by you contract until it expires. It's petty; unprofessional; selfish amongst other things. You want to be treated like professionals? Start acting like it. | ||
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
On January 19 2012 15:47 StarStruck wrote: He might not have signed the dotted line yet, but there's hard evidence that AlivE was negotiating with Fnatic while still on contract with TSL. That is tampering and it's been going on forever when it comes to the Western teams. -_- Guys like Lee never had to deal with it before and I cannot blame him considering he never had to put up with that shit when he was coaching MBC Hero under KeSPA and they have a strict practice. Contracts basically mean shit in the West. You think KeSPA would put up with that shit? Fuck no. Should teams have to have eyes at the back of their heads? No. It's an unfortunate circumstance. The Korean teams just don't have the money. The West and travelling abroad is a much more appealing environment and yes, it gets their names out here. Much more opportunity; however, you should still abide by you contract until it expires. It's petty, unprofessional, selfish and I could go on. You want to be treated like professionals? Start acting like it. Its not unprofessional at all. Fnatic didn't sign him to contract, they simply showed interest. They intended all along to bring coach Lee into the loop but Coach Lee found out by spying on Alive's computer. If teams were only allowed to talk to team managers or owners then nothing would ever get done. How do they even know if the player is interested in the joining their team or if they can trust the manager passing the word along verbatim. You have to go to the player first to gauge interest. Reading aLive's interview, it sounds like he was on his way out of TSL anyway. He was already an "inactive" player after Jyp, Clide, and Killer left.He also no longer had a good image of TSL leading to coach Lee offering to let him off his contract. (Again, the source is in the interview thread.) Virgil (a reliable TSL source) has repeatedly stated that TSL is one of the richer sc2 korean teams. If that were the case, I don't think they have that much of an issue with.. well, money. If fnatic signed aLive to a contract and ignored TSL's contract, then that would be incredibly unprofessional. But that's not what happened. What happened was aLive and Fnatic wanted to approach Coach Lee with this situation and instead Coach Lee finds out by snooping around on aLive's skype and cries out to the media for foul play. | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
On January 19 2012 15:10 babylon wrote: Hey, guys, btw Heart didn't leave TSL according to Milkis. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304299¤tpage=13#243 Discuss. Maybe we will discover aLive didn't really leave TSL after all! I have updated the Heart OP with more information, hopefully I can get this all cleared up. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
Leaf's allegedly tamper Just to give you an illustration of such minor detail. Under KeSPA law that would never fly because their rules and policies are even more strict. Show some etiquette. Yes things would get done because once the contract expires and the team doesn't renew it or the play wants to explore his options they are free to do so and will be removed from the roster. That's when the phone calls can happen. There are plenty ways of going about this. Alive was still under contract. He might not have been living in the quarters but he was signed for several more months. It's a lame excuse. It's the principle of the bloody thing. If someone were to approach me to ask about me switching. I would tell them I'm still under contract with my current team and I'll contact them if I'm ever looking. It's very simple and straightforward. It doesn't matter if or if they haven't signed. That's why we call it tampering. They were trying to pitch signing on to fnatic before it was all said and done. If anything, Alive should have asked Lee for a player transfer for whatever reason. If a player doesn't want to be a member of the team anymore. A team transfer is perfect. No one wants an unmotivated player on their team. Cut the cancer before it festers. Crying out? Foul play is foul play. He had reason to believe something was happening and he was right. If I think there is something going on in my dressing room I would get to the bottom of it too. Professional organizations run a tight ship and everyone knows their role unlike here where it's an open market and contracts have no meaning. Enough already. What can TSL do? Take them to court and get pocket change out of it? Come on now. This is bush league. I cannot imagine what will happen when Big Brother arrives. | ||
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
I think EVENTUALLY both are necessary but there's not enough money in the industry to justify either right now. I don't think you read my post, or aLive's interview. aLive was already on the way out of TSL, he was offered to be release from his contract like Clide, jyp and killer were released (should you be pitchforking them as well, they didn't live out their contract?) Next, his intentions were to speak with coach Lee about the fnatic situation, but coach lee found out on his own and went to the media before actually talking to aLive about the situation. I find it funny how people always put themselves in the shoes of players and hypothetically claim that they will act with 100% justice and honor. You're not alive and you're not in his situation. He clearly questioned TSL by saying that he saw them in a bad light and he was offered an opportunity to make a living as someone who plays video games. Theres no doubt that aLive is one of the best players in Korea, but thats only because he earned it with hours of hard work and sacrifice! If hes getting an opportunity to make him and his families life better, then he fucking earned it. It DOES matter if they haven't signed him because its not foul play and not illegal. Again, alive and fnatic had every intention to incorporate Lee into the talks but that didn't work out did it? You talk about the principle of living out your contract AND then you say that no one wants an unmotivated player and that they should be released or transferred.. well which is it? Is a player allowed to get out of his contract or not? Alive didn't want to be apart of TSL anymore so are you saying that he should honor his contract out of principle or should he be released for not wanting to be there and potentially becoming a cancer? Also, why you're so heavily against the fnatic/alive situation but calmly justifying coach Lee snooping for information and breaking the trust between him as his players is beyond me. IMO, him going behind a players back and reading their private messages is a clear act of the dishonor and breaking the basic principles of being a coach and a manager. Double standard from you? What can TSL do? Well if they're just the victim of a serious of unfortunate events, then they can't really do anything but pray. But I don't really believe in being lucky or unlucky. I think the history of how TSL has functioned show inconsistencies in their management and in their leadership. | ||
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KanoCoke
Japan863 Posts
On January 19 2012 16:38 Angelbelow wrote: Double standard from you? This is what I think. There's two sides of a coin and the person above you never bothered with the other side. This is one way to prolong an argument, dirty as it may be. If they're smart, they'll actually consider your point, yet meticulously phrase it in such a way as to be in favor of their argument. Eitherway, once their views are set, it's like talking to a brick wall. I'd give up and ignore them, then just wait for more news if I were you. Also, my views are biased as well, mind you. I'm on the camp that thinks that Coach Lee is very shady when things he doesn't like are happening, and is the cause for the mass exodus of TSL players. | ||
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Nicator
United Kingdom24 Posts
On January 19 2012 16:20 StarStruck wrote: "Casual conversation?" Please. In every professional sport there is a line of communication between coaches, players, GMs and agents. If any GM were to call a player's agent on contract without contacting the other GM first. It would be called tampering and legal action could be taken: Leaf's allegedly tamper Your linked story only reinforces the point - legal action wasn't taken at all. The issue was instead taken up with the sport's governing body, which is able to enforce its own system of rules based on the fact that it is the gatekeeper when it comes to allowing the teams to compete in the league. SC2 has no governing body, and thus no enforceable rules with respect to negotiating with other teams. Until players have agents to act on their behalf, it would be frankly immoral to do so. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On January 19 2012 15:47 StarStruck wrote: He might not have signed the dotted line yet, but there's hard evidence that AlivE was negotiating with Fnatic while still on contract with TSL. That is tampering and it's been going on forever when it comes to the Western teams. -_- Guys like Lee never dealt with it before. He never had to put up with that shit during his BW tenure. Contracts basically mean shit in the West. You think KeSPA would put up with that shit? Fuck no. Should teams have to have eyes at the back of their heads instead of focusing on their day-to-day operation? It's an unfortunate circumstance. The Korean teams just don't have the money. The West and travelling abroad is a much more appealing environment and yes, it gets their names out here. Much more opportunity; however, you should still abide by you contract until it expires. It's petty; unprofessional; selfish amongst other things. You want to be treated like professionals? Start acting like it. This post is highly ironic. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
On January 19 2012 16:56 KanoCoke wrote: Eitherway, once their views are set, it's like talking to a brick wall. I'd give up and ignore them, then just wait for more news if I were you. People need to realize this more often. It saves so much energy. =/ Unless you get angry/irritated, in which case you type out an entire essay, then delete it after you're done because you're just all, "Oh, what's the point?" Anyways, I'll give it one more go: I dunno why people are trying to blame one side or another when it's clear that -- surprise! -- everyone was unprofessional. aLive's admitted to it already, Lee's already been shown to be unprofessional already (even if the snooping didn't really happen, he released false information to the media stating that Fnatic was signing aLive when no such thing had taken place and he knew it), and Fnatic appears to be unprofessional by encouraging aLive's actions but won't apologize because it means admitting a wrong. Keep in mind that the only thing that will be gained from further updates is ... well, either further blame for one or more of the parties or the absolution of Fnatic, because they're the ones whose stance and actions are most uncertain. There really is no question about whether Lee and aLive acted unprofessionally -- they did, as I've said before, whether or not some people believe those actions were "justified" -- just the question of whether or not Fnatic acted unprofessionally and, if so, to what degree. | ||
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
I don't think Fnatic did anything wrong. They didn't offer a contract when Alive was already under one. Alive obviously made a big booboo in this, trying to get out of his current contract for the purpose of signing a new one on a different team. Obviously if you're a player still under contract with a team, at that point it's your destination team's responsibility to negotiate with your current team on the terms of ending said contract. Alive jumped the gun and tried to do this himself? Big mistake. Coach Lee, other than his backwards view of player trades, doesn't seem to have done anything wrong. He once again made a sensationalized sob story reporting the incident, but I guess that makes sense. He doesn't want to put all the blame on his player, although that is where most of the blame belongs. Oh, and the "what can TSL do?" question. They can improve team conditions so that their players don't want to leave? Seems like that's not happening, judging by the steady efflux of players from TSL. | ||
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mikkmagro
Malta1513 Posts
On January 19 2012 09:34 chatuka wrote: you realize that in the court of law. negotiating a contract while a player is currently on another team's contract is called tampering. It is illegal and highly punishable in all professional sports. You are wrong, it is not illegal. Only certain specific professional leagues have by-laws for that, and guess what: they also have transfer periods - those forms of regulations are there to ensure the smooth-going of the league. What we have here is a normal contract of employment. Negotiations while a player is still contracted is nothing out of the ordinary, as long as the contract itself is not violated, and as long as at the end of the day, the player either lives out his contract, or is bought out of it. THIS: On January 19 2012 17:48 seiferoth10 wrote: It sounds to me like Coach Lee expects to be approached first when another organization is interested in a TSL player. Realistically this is absurd, there is too much conflict of interest for Coach Lee to be the middleman in these player movement talks. Who knows if Coach Lee would relay verbatim the offer of the outside organization to the TSL player, if he even relays it at all? It completely restricts player movement and independence to have this arrangement. Sir Scoots said himself on today's LO3 that he prefers that organizations talk to the player first before their team/management. There's too much room for exploitation if the initial message is received by the team management instead of the player. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On January 19 2012 16:38 Angelbelow wrote: There are no agents in Esports. The player is the agent. In sc2 there is no Kespa either. I think EVENTUALLY both are necessary but there's not enough money in the industry to justify either right now. I don't think you read my post, or aLive's interview. aLive was already on the way out of TSL, he was offered to be release from his contract like Clide, jyp and killer were released (should you be pitchforking them as well, they didn't live out their contract?) Next, his intentions were to speak with coach Lee about the fnatic situation, but coach lee found out on his own and went to the media before actually talking to aLive about the situation. I find it funny how people always put themselves in the shoes of players and hypothetically claim that they will act with 100% justice and honor. You're not alive and you're not in his situation. He clearly questioned TSL by saying that he saw them in a bad light and he was offered an opportunity to make a living as someone who plays video games. Theres no doubt that aLive is one of the best players in Korea, but thats only because he earned it with hours of hard work and sacrifice! If hes getting an opportunity to make him and his families life better, then he fucking earned it. It DOES matter if they haven't signed him because its not foul play and not illegal. Again, alive and fnatic had every intention to incorporate Lee into the talks but that didn't work out did it? You talk about the principle of living out your contract AND then you say that no one wants an unmotivated player and that they should be released or transferred.. well which is it? Is a player allowed to get out of his contract or not? Alive didn't want to be apart of TSL anymore so are you saying that he should honor his contract out of principle or should he be released for not wanting to be there and potentially becoming a cancer? Also, why you're so heavily against the fnatic/alive situation but calmly justifying coach Lee snooping for information and breaking the trust between him as his players is beyond me. IMO, him going behind a players back and reading their private messages is a clear act of the dishonor and breaking the basic principles of being a coach and a manager. Double standard from you? What can TSL do? Well if they're just the victim of a serious of unfortunate events, then they can't really do anything but pray. But I don't really believe in being lucky or unlucky. I think the history of how TSL has functioned show inconsistencies in their management and in their leadership. No shit? My point still stands. You want be treated like a professional? You man up and act like it skippy. What do you think I mean by Big Brother? If you are going to continue to shit where you sleep then be prepared for impending onslaught. Unlike most TL members I read everything and I even made mention to it. Once again you fail to debunk what I said. He was STILL under contract. Just because he took his ball and went home doesn't mean he's allowed to do whatever the heck he wants. He has to wait for it to expire. People get laid off, or take leave all the time in ANY setting and guess what? In many cases, they aren't allowed to compete for certain amount of time until after the contract expires. It has all sorts of names like a non-compete clause, severance package, etc. The media always finds out. If you looked at my Toronto example, you would notice that it was actually the media you spun it. One way or another it will get around. You can say anything after the fact. Of course he was going to talk to Lee before it was all said and done? You know how easy it is to say something after it already happened? Don't be ridiculous. The example I gave you is common sense. Smarten up. If you want to be treated accordingly you got to show class. I know about those situations because I was in them. No. If someone is unhappy you part ways. The mistake here is they didn't part ways from the contract. They did a half-ass job of it. You either: a) terminate the contract by getting rid of them b) transfer them to another team as soon as possible Alive and TSL did neither. He was still under contract yet only left the facilities. This isn't good enough. In other words, they're both responisble. From the sound of it, it doesn't sound like you have a career. I see these lawsuits all the time and they're in every line of business. You are aware, that it is standard practice that companies monitor employees emails and work computers? Right? They make sure they're doing their jobs. I find it incredibly amusing that Lee somehow managed to crack Alive's conversations. Like I said, if there's a problem in my dressing room. I get to the bottom of it asap. It's all about having a good eye. There really isn't much they can do unless they want to win a self-esteem battle and send a message to every other organization out there. Like I said, we're talking about very, very small compensation. Sure, they can get their legal fees paid for as well, but there really isn't much steam here. Lee can just wait it out for Big Brother and let them handle policy. It won't be long until they make their presence felt and if you think they are going to stand for that shit think again. They will be protecting their assets and talent: not in our house. Right now the Western teams are making all the moves. If Big Brother wants a piece of the pie. They will take a pretty darn big chunk of it and the ball will be in their court. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
Allo Jonathan, Apparently very few people know what tampering means and can you blame them? Many are still students and they're so used to seeing this shit that they think its standard practice everywhere.  Anyone with a career would tell you otherwise. In my line of business we deal with this all the time. Hell, it's a constant battle for headhunters. | ||
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kochujang
Germany1226 Posts
On January 19 2012 22:25 StarStruck wrote: Allo Jonathan, Apparently very few people know what tampering means and can you blame them? Many are still students and they're so used to seeing this shit that they think its standard practice everywhere. Anyone with a career would tell you otherwise. In my line of business we deal with this all the time. Hell, it's a constant battle for headhunters. I think he means that Coach Lee is no stranger to tampering himself. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On January 19 2012 15:16 Fionn wrote: Polt/Hyun/Heart can win GSTL. They have the talent. i dont know. on any given day they might be able to beat a team, but to win the GSTL you need consistency and talent or heart wont get you that. | ||
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orangesunglasses
United States110 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On January 19 2012 22:30 kochujang wrote: I think he means that Coach Lee is no stranger to tampering himself. Indeed. | ||
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