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Discussing the controversy and stating your opinions in a constructive way is fine, but there will be bans for any player/organization bashing without anything to substantiate it. |
On January 19 2012 10:02 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 09:58 Angelbelow wrote:On January 19 2012 09:51 chatuka wrote:
All parties are to blame.
Fnatic for tampering with a player under another team's contract.
Alive for negotiating a contract with another team, while under contract
and Coach lee for spying on Alive's computer.
This is a terrible situation. No one is innocent. I lost respect for all three parties involved. Alive and fnatics intentions were never to go behind coach Lees back. It seems like ALive was on his way out anyone even without fnatics offer. So my personal opinion is that what Lee did was a lot worse. 1. aLive planned on talking to him anyway about the situation - but before he could: 2. Lee finds out be snooping aLive's Skype conversation. 3. Lee snaps and takes incorrect information to the media once again. That's the story that I'm getting right now. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't really see the harm in alive talking to fnatic when he said he didn't like the image of TSL and was planning on leaving the team anyway (source: his GSL ro16 interview thread). what Lee did was prett crazy. but Alive should have finished out his contract then reach out to fnatic. Or talk to Mr. Lee directly and ask out of his contract. that is how usually people deal with a contractual situation. Fnatic should have been aware of these premises of common ethical behavior and not talk to Alive about 'Buisness'. If they wanted Alive, Fnatic should have contacted Mr. Lee directly.
Thats my point, it sounds like ALive did want to talk to Mr. Lee first. But Lee snooped around a leaked the information to the media before talking to Alive and vice versa.
Lee offered alive an out on his contract and alive was already not living at the house and was an inactive member (again, source is in his interview.).
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I have less and less respect for Coach Lee. I mean, initially, I was all on his side. But him saying different things to players and press is really baffling. Happened before, happening now. He just wants to save his face and his team's image, but he himself seems like a big hypocrite, saying on thing to a player, then saying different things to press.
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Wow TSL losing another player and somewhat unexpected moves by Fnatic without Xeris...
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It's not like progamers have personal managers who can contact other teams and who look for future career opportunities for them. How is a player market supposed to work if players are not allowed to be in contact with other teams?
Coach Lee should just stop creating drama, it is clear by now that he uses the threat of going public to put pressure on his players. I wonder if the korean fans still side with him ...
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In your article, the OP should capitalize Coach Lee's name near the end of the document. I also believe that the OP accidentally used the word "free" instead of "fee" in one instance.
Otherwise, I hate when this kind of miscommunication happens. =[ Best of luck to TSL, I always rooted for them in GSTL after seeing Artosis's videos of the TSL house.
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i'm serious the starcraft community must have its period or something cuz it's going crazy with all this team drama
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On January 19 2012 10:03 TheTurk wrote:
Perhaps there is a reason that this is happening to TSL again?
It's not like the players are being stolen away; there is voluntary preference driving their actions.
Maybe the effort spent whining about players leaving would be better spent insuring that the players are content enough to not leave in the 1st place?
I bet Coach Lee is nuts and that's what drives them away.
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TSL in the headlines again XD...
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I really don't think "tampered with Alive" is the best phrase to use here... unless someone from Fnactic broke Alive's fingers through "negotiations".
Something like "TSL claims Fnatic undermined Alive's contract" might be more appropriate (but perhaps not as memorable)
I'll admit that writing catchy and accurate headlines is ridiculously difficult.
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On January 19 2012 12:03 Erik.TheRed wrote:
I really don't think "tampered with Alive" is the best phrase to use here... unless someone from Fnactic broke Alive's fingers through "negotiations".
Something like "TSL claims Fnatic undermined Alive's contract" might be more appropriate (but perhaps not as memorable)
I'll admit that writing catchy and accurate headlines is ridiculously difficult.
Undermined appears to be a good way to put it given the current information as, you're right, tampered gives the impression Fnatic had a more direct impact upon alive than it appears they did.
Also just to give my impression on all this since everyone has to have their say on drama =P -
It appears that all parties are possibly somewhat in the wrong. I see it like this:
- Coach Lee is in the wrong (potentially legally) for tracking private conversations. However as the teamhouse is a "workplace" depending on the laws he might have the right to have a record of actions of an employee on work computers. Depends on a lot of factors of course, though I think this is morally at least in the wrong to be taking private conversations.
- Alive is potentially in the wrong since, though he said he was thinking of leaving when offered, it does largely look like he has tried to circumvent his contract by quitting the team and then getting picked up by another team. I doubt this was on any advice of Fnatic, however if it was Fnatic needs to apologise. I keep reading "Fnatic's views arent represented by its translator", but if he's an employee of Fnatic then they own responsibility of his actions. If he had an action in some shady advice, then the responsibility falls on Fnatic.
- And Fnatic are potentially in the wrong also depending on their advice, sort of linked to above. I feel like teams need to approach a coach / manager of a team first and I completely disagree with any statements people are making about "The way to do things is to approach the player" as contracts are bought and transferred in this industry, not poached.
So overall, I think Lee is definitely in the wrong and perhaps (though I actually expect) alive and Fnatic are also in the wrong too. Hopefully there's a quick and responsible resolution to the whole thing however and hopefully each of the parties get what they are after.
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On January 19 2012 12:32 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 12:03 Erik.TheRed wrote:
I really don't think "tampered with Alive" is the best phrase to use here... unless someone from Fnactic broke Alive's fingers through "negotiations".
Something like "TSL claims Fnatic undermined Alive's contract" might be more appropriate (but perhaps not as memorable)
I'll admit that writing catchy and accurate headlines is ridiculously difficult. Undermined appears to be a good way to put it given the current information as, you're right, tampered gives the impression Fnatic had a more direct impact upon alive than it appears they did. Also just to give my impression on all this since everyone has to have their say on drama =P - It appears that all parties are possibly somewhat in the wrong. I see it like this: - Coach Lee is in the wrong (potentially legally) for tracking private conversations. However as the teamhouse is a "workplace" depending on the laws he might have the right to have a record of actions of an employee on work computers. Depends on a lot of factors of course, though I think this is morally at least in the wrong to be taking private conversations. - Alive is potentially in the wrong since, though he said he was thinking of leaving when offered, it does largely look like he has tried to circumvent his contract by quitting the team and then getting picked up by another team. I doubt this was on any advice of Fnatic, however if it was Fnatic needs to apologise. I keep reading "Fnatic's views arent represented by its translator", but if he's an employee of Fnatic then they own responsibility of his actions. If he had an action in some shady advice, then the responsibility falls on Fnatic. - And Fnatic are potentially in the wrong also depending on their advice, sort of linked to above. I feel like teams need to approach a coach / manager of a team first and I completely disagree with any statements people are making about "The way to do things is to approach the player" as contracts are bought and transferred in this industry, not poached. So overall, I think Lee is definitely in the wrong and perhaps (though I actually expect) alive and Fnatic are also in the wrong too. Hopefully there's a quick and responsible resolution to the whole thing however and hopefully each of the parties get what they are after.
How is he definitely in the wrong? It's a workplace. It's far from uncommon to have activities/conversations recorded.
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Is anyone else sick and tired of all the Korean pressuring/guilt-tripping every time a Korean player leaves his team/goes to a new team? I feel like Koreans need to "get with the times" and stop this ludicrous atmosphere of pressure on their younger people. There's a reason the suicide rate in S.Korea is one of the highest in the world (if not the highest?) and part of the reason is shit like this. It's getting absurd, Coach Lee is even going as far as to snooping on private Skype chatlogs? And then blah blah "I spent 6000$ on travel--" that's business. Stop crying. EG spent god knows how much on Axslav/Strifecro, ended up parting ways and they didn't necessarily "pay for themselves" but it's part of investing in ESPORTS.
Like, Lee is an ADULT. aLive and plenty of other people I've seen in similar situations (Puma comes to mind) are young people who are abandoning their chances at taking the korean standardized tests in favor of ESPORTS -- let them do what the fuck they think is best. If they can legally break a contract at the cost of a fee, that is their choice. Respect them -- at the very least don't publicly try to shame them/humiliate them/guilt-trip/act like you're a saint constantly getting fucked with.
It's disgusting and I'm positive I'm not the only one who feels this way in the trends of the pressure on korean youths trying to find their way in the korean SC scene.
The "Korean" traditional methods have been tried, and in BW you essentially had freezing houses, low/little/no pay, low standards of living, and a mountain of pressure. It's getting old reading tirade after tirade from Coach Lee against his players; yet the only constant in all the various TSL drama is himself.
edit i have been informed that my description of bw progaming houses is outdated and i know less about that than TL so yeah you can ignore that part
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On January 19 2012 12:46 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 12:32 bittman wrote:On January 19 2012 12:03 Erik.TheRed wrote:
I really don't think "tampered with Alive" is the best phrase to use here... unless someone from Fnactic broke Alive's fingers through "negotiations".
Something like "TSL claims Fnatic undermined Alive's contract" might be more appropriate (but perhaps not as memorable)
I'll admit that writing catchy and accurate headlines is ridiculously difficult. Undermined appears to be a good way to put it given the current information as, you're right, tampered gives the impression Fnatic had a more direct impact upon alive than it appears they did. Also just to give my impression on all this since everyone has to have their say on drama =P - It appears that all parties are possibly somewhat in the wrong. I see it like this: - Coach Lee is in the wrong (potentially legally) for tracking private conversations. However as the teamhouse is a "workplace" depending on the laws he might have the right to have a record of actions of an employee on work computers. Depends on a lot of factors of course, though I think this is morally at least in the wrong to be taking private conversations. - Alive is potentially in the wrong since, though he said he was thinking of leaving when offered, it does largely look like he has tried to circumvent his contract by quitting the team and then getting picked up by another team. I doubt this was on any advice of Fnatic, however if it was Fnatic needs to apologise. I keep reading "Fnatic's views arent represented by its translator", but if he's an employee of Fnatic then they own responsibility of his actions. If he had an action in some shady advice, then the responsibility falls on Fnatic. - And Fnatic are potentially in the wrong also depending on their advice, sort of linked to above. I feel like teams need to approach a coach / manager of a team first and I completely disagree with any statements people are making about "The way to do things is to approach the player" as contracts are bought and transferred in this industry, not poached. So overall, I think Lee is definitely in the wrong and perhaps (though I actually expect) alive and Fnatic are also in the wrong too. Hopefully there's a quick and responsible resolution to the whole thing however and hopefully each of the parties get what they are after. How is he definitely in the wrong? It's a workplace. It's far from uncommon to have activities/conversations recorded.
... for the purposes of ensuring people are actually doing their job. Not for the purpose for sniffing out private conversations. And Coach Lee is still wrong because he went crying to media with information that he didn't fully understand. Alive even said that he was scheduled to speak with Coach Lee but the article got released before that. I haven't seen a reasonable way to justify what Coach Lee has done.
Companies can monitor your work email but they can't monitor your private email.
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maybe he didnt read the fine print that said, "all skype convos will be recorded and closely monitored for quality assurance"
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On January 19 2012 11:54 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 10:03 TheTurk wrote:
Perhaps there is a reason that this is happening to TSL again?
It's not like the players are being stolen away; there is voluntary preference driving their actions.
Maybe the effort spent whining about players leaving would be better spent insuring that the players are content enough to not leave in the 1st place? I bet Coach Lee is nuts and that's what drives them away.
I bet it has to do with my fanfiction, but then again it might just be his training isn't for them
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On January 19 2012 13:06 FidoDido wrote:
maybe he didnt read the fine print that said, "all skype convos will be recorded and closely monitored for quality assurance"
This. It was a team house, I guarantee you there was an expectation to retain the last shreds of privacy you can possibly have while living with 10 other males.
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10387 Posts
On January 19 2012 12:53 Vei wrote:
The "Korean" traditional methods have been tried, and in BW you essentially had freezing houses, low/little/no pay, low standards of living, and a mountain of pressure.
????????? Are you talking about team houses back in 02 or something? because BW team houses are pretty nice
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On January 19 2012 15:01 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 12:53 Vei wrote:
The "Korean" traditional methods have been tried, and in BW you essentially had freezing houses, low/little/no pay, low standards of living, and a mountain of pressure. ????????? Are you talking about team houses back in 02 or something? because BW team houses are pretty nice
Yeah the early team houses werent anything special. tough living conditions. Once the scene was really established financially though things shaped up.
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On January 19 2012 12:53 Vei wrote:
Is anyone else sick and tired of all the Korean pressuring/guilt-tripping every time a Korean player leaves his team/goes to a new team? I feel like Koreans need to "get with the times" and stop this ludicrous atmosphere of pressure on their younger people. There's a reason the suicide rate in S.Korea is one of the highest in the world (if not the highest?) and part of the reason is shit like this. It's getting absurd, Coach Lee is even going as far as to snooping on private Skype chatlogs? And then blah blah "I spent 6000$ on travel--" that's business. Stop crying. EG spent god knows how much on Axslav/Strifecro, ended up parting ways and they didn't necessarily "pay for themselves" but it's part of investing in ESPORTS.
Like, Lee is an ADULT. aLive and plenty of other people I've seen in similar situations (Puma comes to mind) are young people who are abandoning their chances at taking the korean standardized tests in favor of ESPORTS -- let them do what the fuck they think is best. If they can legally break a contract at the cost of a fee, that is their choice. Respect them -- at the very least don't publicly try to shame them/humiliate them/guilt-trip/act like you're a saint constantly getting fucked with.
It's disgusting and I'm positive I'm not the only one who feels this way in the trends of the pressure on korean youths trying to find their way in the korean SC scene.
The "Korean" traditional methods have been tried, and in BW you essentially had freezing houses, low/little/no pay, low standards of living, and a mountain of pressure. It's getting old reading tirade after tirade from Coach Lee against his players; yet the only constant in all the various TSL drama is himself.
I agree with your first three paragraphs, but the last one is completely made up or just "so 2003 - essentially history". BW houses are actually pretty damn nice and comfortable. Have you seen any of the current ones from '04 onwards - they are pretty cool.
Watch the Nal_rA documentary and have a look at KT Rolster's house - fully equipped with house maids and heaters etc.
Anyway back to the point, investing in ESPORTS is a risk/reward game and Lee has to face the facts that this happens. Perhaps the culture differences mean that EG's investment with Strifecro and Axslav cannot really be compared to this situation - but I am getting tired of Lee complaining over and over about player x leaving the team and how foreign team y "poached him". This ESPORTS drama is getting on my nerves, and most of the drama I see is from Lee complaining to the media.
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EPT
