Discussing the controversy and stating your opinions in a constructive way is fine, but there will be bans for any player/organization bashing without anything to substantiate it.
On January 19 2012 05:36 purecarnagge wrote: So Alive spoke to Fnatic management, without going through his coach. That is a problem. Especially if your trying to get a partnership done.
Coach Lee might not be the brightest crayon in the box but he ain't the dullest. Fnatic really screwed this up.
.....
i didn't know an interpreter represents Fnatic management..
Do the non-korean speaking representative represent fnatic to korean players? It could just be a friendly conversation, but if the translator is employed by fnatic and is talking about joining fnatic, it's hard to not conclude that he is representing fnatic. Whether that was his intent or not, this interpretation of events should have been obvious.
by that extension of imagination, aLive isn't allowed to talk to anyone from Fnatic? not even some janitor lady or w/e? It's silly. Even from aLive's interview, he said he was talking to a hyung that worked at Fnatic as an interpreter.
Basically, it means he was talking to a friend about his concerns and whatnot as opposed to talking to an organization negotiating a contract. There's a huge difference here if you can't see it..
On January 19 2012 05:36 purecarnagge wrote: So Alive spoke to Fnatic management, without going through his coach. That is a problem. Especially if your trying to get a partnership done.
Coach Lee might not be the brightest crayon in the box but he ain't the dullest. Fnatic really screwed this up.
.....
i didn't know an interpreter represents Fnatic management..
Do the non-korean speaking representative represent fnatic to korean players? It could just be a friendly conversation, but if the translator is employed by fnatic and is talking about joining fnatic, it's hard to not conclude that he is representing fnatic. Whether that was his intent or not, this interpretation of events should have been obvious.
by that extension of imagination, aLive isn't allowed to talk to anyone from Fnatic? not even some janitor lady or w/e? It's silly. Even from aLive's interview, he said he was talking to a hyung that worked at Fnatic as an interpreter.
Basically, it means he was talking to a friend about his concerns and whatnot as opposed to talking to an organization negotiating a contract. There's a huge difference here if you can't see it..
It is actually quite frowned upon to talk about business stuff like this, even if they're friends. It's not that they're not allowed to talk at all, but they definitely shouldn't be discussing switching teams from TSL to Fnatic.
On January 19 2012 05:33 VirgilSC2 wrote:rRI think one of the things a lot of people are missing here is that all of this occurred during the time period that Coach Lee was in negotiations of a partnership with Fnatic, and Fnatic players were training in the TSL house.
Do you think Fnatic thought that it would be ok to sign aLive, considering that alot of foriegn pickups occur when said foriegn team trains with the Korean team?
As in HerO --> Liquid Oz --> FXO
oGs Hero --> liquid was a FAR different situation than this. For one, nobody was living in the TSL house from Fnatic except Rain, a former member and somebody coach Lee sees as a son.
Secondly, they were nearing finalization of a deal which required quite a bit of trust from Coach Lee, so when he thought that they were both taking aLive and backing out on the deal, he understandably thought they were getting his trust merely to proceed to poach a player from him.
Thirdly, the oGs-liquid partnership is far stronger than any of the other korean-foreigner partnerships, from an emotional level. oGs is HerO's family, and going to Liquid was not leaving his family, they are that close. Nothing changed for HerO except for the Liquid in front of his name and who pays his salary (and going to a lot more foreign tournaments). The relationship with TSL and Fnatic was for the most part tentative (from what I can tell)
Fnatic (or at least the translator) had none of these things in mind, if he had he would have steered clear. All the wrong things lined up right as Coach Lee saw the Skype conversation.
On January 19 2012 01:15 FXOpen wrote: I just don't understand this thread at all. Like.. A player doesnt respect a contract. All of a sudden coach lee is a control freak douche? What?
Really?
<brain explode>
I hope no player breaks my contract, cos then if I fight for my rights, I will apparently be some sort of criminal control freak.
Substitute 'plans to buy out his own contract or have a team buy it out for him' for 'breaks his contract', and you have a more accurate assessment. Unless you're suggesting that negotiating with another team for a better offer might be against the terms of his contract, which would seem more than a little crazy.
Coach lee comes across as a control freak not for wanting his money, but for going through a players private communications. If someone did that to me I'd be upset too.
Coach Lee needs to stop being paranoid about people stealing his players. How many times is he going to accuse a team of something they haven't done before even bothering to try to learn the facts?
I have noone to bash, other than to reiterate that I really wish people would take IPL's advice and be transparent. Say why you ditch players, say why you ditch teams. You can be diplomatic, but we need some honesty here. If that means the cold hard truth, then so be it. Let's not be overly sensitive, this is a cut-throat business/movement that may not go big-time. Either way, eSports needs more candidness.
On January 19 2012 06:57 mikkmagro wrote: I don't see what's wrong with Fnatic approaching aLive while he was under contract. They acknowledged his contract with TSL, and they didn't try and recruit him while under contract, they merely negotiated. You don't need to go to the management of a company to negotiate. The only really morally ambiguous thing here, is aLive's loyalty, and nothing else. He didn't breach his contract, and neither did Fnatic make him breach his contract.
In my opinion, communication between the companies is only mandatory when one company would be seeking to buy the contracted party out of his contract. aLive was going to leave TSL before joining Fnatic eitherway. There was no breach of contract anywhere. There is nothing saying that Fnatic wasn't going to try and buy him out of the contract; it didn't happen because the Coach decided to raid the personal communication of aLive.
Also, doesn't TSL's lack of ability to hold on to their players make you think that aLive has a good reason for wanting out?
you realize that in the court of law. negotiating a contract while a player is currently on another team's contract is called tampering.
It is illegal and highly punishable in all professional sports.
I wonder why issues like this are highly publicized in esports as compared to other sports such as basketball, football etc. of course it happens in those sports, too. However, issues like this takes out the focus on what is more important. I hope they had settled it first privately, only publicly as a last resort. Especially since alive is in the middle of an important tourney. People take their arguments/conflicts public because they want people to side with them. There are already a lot of divisive issues in esports. A little initial discretion would have been appropriate.
On January 19 2012 09:51 chatuka wrote: All parties are to blame.
Fnatic for tampering with a player under another team's contract.
Alive for negotiating a contract with another team, while under contract
and Coach lee for spying on Alive's computer.
This is a terrible situation. No one is innocent. I lost respect for all three parties involved.
Alive and fnatics intentions were never to go behind coach Lees back. It seems like ALive was on his way out anyone even without fnatics offer.
So my personal opinion is that what Lee did was a lot worse.
1. aLive planned on talking to him anyway about the situation - but before he could: 2. Lee finds out be snooping aLive's Skype conversation. 3. Lee snaps and takes incorrect information to the media once again.
That's the story that I'm getting right now. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't really see the harm in alive talking to fnatic when he said he didn't like the image of TSL and was planning on leaving the team anyway (source: his GSL ro16 interview thread).
On January 19 2012 09:51 chatuka wrote: All parties are to blame.
Fnatic for tampering with a player under another team's contract.
Alive for negotiating a contract with another team, while under contract
and Coach lee for spying on Alive's computer.
This is a terrible situation. No one is innocent. I lost respect for all three parties involved.
Alive and fnatics intentions were never to go behind coach Lees back. It seems like ALive was on his way out anyone even without fnatics offer.
So my personal opinion is that what Lee did was a lot worse.
1. aLive planned on talking to him anyway about the situation - but before he could: 2. Lee finds out be snooping aLive's Skype conversation. 3. Lee snaps and takes incorrect information to the media once again.
That's the story that I'm getting right now. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't really see the harm in alive talking to fnatic when he said he didn't like the image of TSL and was planning on leaving the team anyway (source: his GSL ro16 interview thread).
what Lee did was prett crazy. but Alive should have finished out his contract then reach out to fnatic. Or talk to Mr. Lee directly and ask out of his contract. that is how usually people deal with a contractual situation. Fnatic should have been aware of these premises of common ethical behavior and not talk to Alive about 'Buisness'. If they wanted Alive, Fnatic should have contacted Mr. Lee directly.
Perhaps there is a reason that this is happening to TSL again? It's not like the players are being stolen away; there is voluntary preference driving their actions. Maybe the effort spent whining about players leaving would be better spent insuring that the players are content enough to not leave in the 1st place?
EPT
