On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
Flash has godlike mechanics, that's undeniable, but the most important thing to consider is the strategic talent of this player. His great mechanics only allow him to actually perform these ridiculous strategies and insanely awesome tactics. I think we should focus on the fact that he is a genius strategist.
At the end of the day, this is what is most important.
As you said, sc2 is "easier". That means that the top players basically all have near-perfect macro and mechanics. So what's left in order to determine who's the best? It all comes down to strategy and tactics. I believe Sc2's macro is easier because Blizzard wants the player to focus on actual strategy.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
You talk like anyone has even come close to reaching the skillcap for sc2 yet, which is so untrue. Yes, I can understand the logic that starcraft 2 is simpler and easier to pick up and play, but I don't understand why so many people act like there isn't room for anyone to excel in the game.
Day[9] explained it pretty well in one of his videos, which I think was about game design:
Doesn't mean that in SC2 noobs can win tournaments and stuff, it just means that SC2 limits way too much the skill of the players.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
Flash has godlike mechanics, that's undeniable, but the most important thing to consider is the strategic talent of this player. His great mechanics only allow him to actually perform these ridiculous strategies and insanely awesome tactics. I think we should focus on the fact that he is a genius strategist.
At the end of the day, this is what is most important.
As you said, sc2 is "easier". That means that the top players basically all have near-perfect macro and mechanics. So what's left in order to determine who's the best? It all comes down to strategy and tactics. I believe Sc2's macro is easier because Blizzard wants the player to focus on actual strategy.
It is not clear how "genius strategists" he really is, but we do know that sc2 is way easier game and allows many players chance to take games off of everyone basicly. Maybe flash is not so great strategists as you think, and thus comes just decent player. But maybe im wrong and he really is "godly good" strategy-wise compared to other guys in sc2 scene let alone following a-teamers to switch.
It is just not so likely that we are gonna see flash dominate sc2 same way he does in brood war.
On January 09 2012 13:50 awwnuts07 wrote: Unless it's the BW top dogs, I can't really say I'm super interested.
Are you serious? These guys are on level or better than people like MVP or ForGG.
If you're not interested for that... Wow.
Many of the current SC2 pros had bright futures in BW but just never really committed or got a chance before leaving.
Really just speculation. The top players are still very young, much younger than the supposedly "up and comers" who switched to SC2. The best players all won OSLs/MSLs at a young age, Flash the youngest at 15, Jaedong winning OSL on first attempt, etc.
Flash was supposedly gonna be one of those guys who was never going to make it far, because he just cheesed all the time, or blow his chances at a gold by going 14CC every game and taking massive risks. Even so he got a gold at 15 and was unstoppable by 17.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
Flash has godlike mechanics, that's undeniable, but the most important thing to consider is the strategic talent of this player. His great mechanics only allow him to actually perform these ridiculous strategies and insanely awesome tactics. I think we should focus on the fact that he is a genius strategist.
At the end of the day, this is what is most important.
As you said, sc2 is "easier". That means that the top players basically all have near-perfect macro and mechanics. So what's left in order to determine who's the best? It all comes down to strategy and tactics. I believe Sc2's macro is easier because Blizzard wants the player to focus on actual strategy.
It is not clear how "genius strategists" he really is, but we do know that sc2 is way easier game and allows many players chance to take games off of everyone basicly. Maybe flash is not so great strategists as you think, and thus comes just decent player. But maybe im wrong and he really is "godly good" strategy-wise compared to other guys in sc2 scene let alone following a-teamers to switch.
It is just not so likely that we are gonna see flash dominate sc2 same way he does in brood war.
I do know , besides being one hell of a talented and brainy kid at broodwar he is a hero in real life when he jump in to the pool to save kal who was drowning at the swimming pool . With that I salute you LEE YOUNG HO !!!!!!
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
Flash has godlike mechanics, that's undeniable, but the most important thing to consider is the strategic talent of this player. His great mechanics only allow him to actually perform these ridiculous strategies and insanely awesome tactics. I think we should focus on the fact that he is a genius strategist.
At the end of the day, this is what is most important.
As you said, sc2 is "easier". That means that the top players basically all have near-perfect macro and mechanics. So what's left in order to determine who's the best? It all comes down to strategy and tactics. I believe Sc2's macro is easier because Blizzard wants the player to focus on actual strategy.
I hate how people act like SC2's skill cap has been reached. I have never seen a match where one player drastically outplayed the other and somehow lost. So maybe it is easier for top players to get outplayed, but the fact remains that you can outplay your opponent every game. No player's mechanics are perfect, I can watch MVP and call out mistakes all the time.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
Flash has godlike mechanics, that's undeniable, but the most important thing to consider is the strategic talent of this player. His great mechanics only allow him to actually perform these ridiculous strategies and insanely awesome tactics. I think we should focus on the fact that he is a genius strategist.
At the end of the day, this is what is most important.
As you said, sc2 is "easier". That means that the top players basically all have near-perfect macro and mechanics. So what's left in order to determine who's the best? It all comes down to strategy and tactics. I believe Sc2's macro is easier because Blizzard wants the player to focus on actual strategy.
It is not clear how "genius strategists" he really is, but we do know that sc2 is way easier game and allows many players chance to take games off of everyone basicly. Maybe flash is not so great strategists as you think, and thus comes just decent player. But maybe im wrong and he really is "godly good" strategy-wise compared to other guys in sc2 scene let alone following a-teamers to switch.
It is just not so likely that we are gonna see flash dominate sc2 same way he does in brood war.
I do know , besides being one hell of a talented and brainy kid at broodwar he is a hero in real life when he jump in to the pool to save kal who was drowning at the swimming pool . With that I salute you LEE YOUNG HO !!!!!!
Although no great justification by any means, you just have to look at all the grand finals Flash has won and see him for who he is, a strategic genius.
No one else could beat the "would be bonjwa if it wasn't for Flash" Jaedong, 3:0 followed by 3:1 so easily in a grand final. The wins and builds were so ridiculous, it was as if Flash was just smurfing someone on Battle Net. Jaedong literally resorted to pure 4 pooling in the final moments of the consecutive grandfinal against Flash (after the 3:0 loss), and still lost 3:1.
You can't achieve this with mechanics, Flash achieved this with superior mind gaming and a completely new build for every game that no one has ever seen before. Each game followed so smoothly onto the next, you could tell his build was not only designed to win the game, it was designed to win his next 2 games as well!. and completely screwed with Jaedongs head. His thought process would have been something like "Flash is not stupid enough to CC first 3 times in a row, oh wait 14cc, ok no problem I will counter his mech army with hydras, oh wait +1 marines and goliaths with no medics wtf?! Valkyries? Who the fuck makes Valkyries?!!! Gargh!".
I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
People keep saying void ray phasing was patched, but was it? I looked on liquipedia and its nowhere in any patch notes. Maybe Im wrong, but I don't remember them ever taking it out?
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
I think a lot of ppl also believe that there is a lot in sc2 that ppl haven't discovered yet. There is a new build every month thats "unbeatable" ... month later it's just another strat in their arsenal (not obsolete but can be countered) The game has plenty of time to grow and change and with the expansions coming out... you won't have consistency for a while.
It's funny to see SC2 newcompers compare players like Flash to even other A-teamers
He makes other A-teamers look like scrubs.
Flash would make MVP look like Bitbybit (i.e the only way you could beat him would be to use a cheesy strategy). The scary part is - This isn't even that much of an exaggeration, Flash is that good.
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
People keep saying void ray phasing was patched, but was it? I looked on liquipedia and its nowhere in any patch notes. Maybe Im wrong, but I don't remember them ever taking it out?
Definitely patched, the way it worked was that damage was instantaneous upon switching to an enemy, thus increasing DPS. Now the first wave of damage comes much slower, so while you can still switch between enemies fast, your dps will be lower.
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
People keep saying void ray phasing was patched, but was it? I looked on liquipedia and its nowhere in any patch notes. Maybe Im wrong, but I don't remember them ever taking it out?
It was taken out of the game. If it wasn't, people like MC would abuse the shit of it for void ray all ins ;D
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
People keep saying void ray phasing was patched, but was it? I looked on liquipedia and its nowhere in any patch notes. Maybe Im wrong, but I don't remember them ever taking it out?
Definitely patched, the way it worked was that damage was instantaneous upon switching to an enemy, thus increasing DPS. Now the first wave of damage comes much slower, so while you can still switch between enemies fast, your dps will be lower.
There was also the viking flower.
Ohhh like if the charge was at 4 seconds (5 seconds to charge up) and you switched enemies, the charge would remain at 4 seconds? And now if its at 4 seconds and you switch, it goes back to 0 seconds? Never mind, I was thinking that you and others were talking about something else
On January 10 2012 01:32 TheResidentEvil wrote: It doesnt matter. SC2 is a different game and it will take awhile to acclimate. These pros arent going to come over to sc2 and dominate. Its not going to happen. Well, maybe if they all play terran they will
you will be proven wrong and people like me who know so will rub it in in the most annyoing way...
by bumping the elephant in the room article.
Do you feel the need to say the same thing every time this comes up?
It's like you feel threatened or something...
I feel the need to say the same thing when everyone else says the same thing and the situation also remains the same.
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
Don't you think that's sort of premature? After one year of Starcraft 1 people were still mostly one basing. Now obviously I would expect Sc2 to be much more developed than Sc1 was after a year given it built on Sc1's foundations. However, there's no way you can expect Sc2 to be as developed after one year than Sc1 after 13 years.
People didn't understand Muta stacking, hold lurkers after one year of Sc1 either.
I really think people writing of Sc2 after a year are insanely judgemental. The game's about a million times better now than during the GSL Open Seasons. Why not assume it will continue to improve exponentially?
EPT
