Its been a long while since FXORaelcun blogged that the Koreans are coming to steal your pennies.
Well, here it is again…. The Koreans are coming.
A wittle bwirdy told me this morning that a certain number of brood war persons will be playing sc2 professionally in approximately 40 days time.
These pros are A team pros.
Whilst I am not fully familiar with the names (I am for sure not going to openly state who they are for risk of being insulted) I know that their results are very solid and consistent from brood war.
They have been playing sc2 for approximately 5 months so far, and from what I am told, they only play sc2 now during practice time.
This my dear friends, is the beginning. The beginning of what will soon be the true starcraft pro scene.
So in the true theme of what I have been preparing for for a while now. I will grow my finger nails so that when two of these bw pros meet in sc2, I can bite them off in what is surely going to be some nail biting sc2. Like Leenock vs MVP gsl semis… I think I bit my finger nails until they bled.
Looking back at this blog, I have been so vague I should write for TMZ…
According to FXOBoSs's blog there will be a relatively significant number of high level BW pro's swapping over to SC2 in the coming months. Even more interesting is the information that these players have been playing nothing but Starcraft 2 for a while now. Which pro players are we expecting to come over? A Teamers? B Teamers? How many A teamers have been relatively inactive in Pro Leagues and High Level BW tournaments recently?
What do you think this will mean for the scene?
EDIT: New post on FXOBoSs's blog about OGN, GSL and KESPA, semi related.
Kespa, OGN and GSL
The idea that Korea could be getting another Large scale tournament on its soil sends excitement shivers down my spine….
But the question remains, can we all join hands and live together in peace and harmony?
I don’t think so.
One thing I have learned about doing business in Asia is that its a kill or be killed environment, that of course not meaning if you do business in Asia you will die but your business may just do that.
If we look into history, there has never been a situation where GOM and OGN have been able to live together on the same block. Much like the bloods and the crips.
So I raise the question, when OGN (yes WHEN) starts broadcasting an sc2 league will it monopolize Korea once again? Or will, in some sort of christmas miracle, they be able to share the benefits of a successful e-sports society?
Of course, this will have alot to do with KESPA’s actions which I am still not 100% sure on what they are planning. But I do know that OGN is on its way. Can GOM stand the heat? Will OGN continue to broadcast in less than HD quality? Who will cast for OGN? Who will work for them? Who knows!? I certainly don’t.
But these thoughts of mine are very exciting given that I have a Korean based team and there will become more opportunities for them as a whole to compete.
I personally can't see how KESPA would fit into the current SC2 model in korea. I can imagine that Blizzard will step in and stop them from doing to the starcraft 2 scene what they did in BW.
With the disbandment of the three teams at the end of last season, there are quite a few low level A-players floating around. If they switch over, bang, they'll be pretty good.
Interesting, this is great for the scene. More pros and better players will force current players to work harder to become better or fall behind. I can't wait to see what these pros have up their sleeve assuming this is correct
I really am doubting this. haven't people been saying this since day 1 and it has not happend yet. I doubt to think it would happen while GOM has sc2 broadcasting control as well.
I can see them practicing WoL to get a feel for the slight differences between BW and SC2, and then possibly making the official switch when HotS comes out, since that will equalize the playing field.
And then they'll probably crush some skulls and crack some necks. Being an A-Teamer BW player is not something to take lightly.
On January 09 2012 13:45 masterbreti wrote: I really am doubting this. haven't people been saying this since day 1 and it has not happend yet. I doubt to think it would happen while GOM has sc2 broadcasting control as well.
On January 09 2012 13:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can see them practicing WoL to get a feel for the slight differences between BW and SC2, and then possibly making the official switch when HotS comes out, since that will equalize the playing field.
And then they'll probably crush some skulls and crack some necks. Being an A-Teamer BW player is not something to take lightly.
Yeah, a whole bunch of players above MVPs level at average, which means some will be even better.
On January 09 2012 13:45 1Eris1 wrote: A little birdy? Does that mean a kespa insider or just a friend of his? Gonna take this with a grain of salt unless we know who is really saying this
I agree. I wish he had announced this in a better, more professional way, it almost seems like a bid for attention.
Whilst I am not fully familiar with the names (I am for sure not going to openly state who they are for risk of being insulted) I know that their results are very solid and consistent from brood war.
Not familiar with the names? Then how can you know that they are good, A-team pros?
That being said, it might take a while before these top players begin to make an impact, since the GSL system does not have the "open bracket" like MLG, IPL or NASL, where someone can just register and win their way to the top. Since only Hyun was the only major BW pro to play in the Code A qualifiers this season (congrats for qualifying), that means the earliest these pros would play in the GSL would be next season. That also means the earliest we would see them in Code S would probably be Season 3, which is around summertime.
Playing in 40 days means playing in what sort of event? Is the next GSL season that soon? Is there going to be GSTL that includes them? or some other tournament? or I remember rumors that Proleague would have some SC2? Or is this just that they'll announce a switch then, and play whenever the next event happens to be?
On January 09 2012 13:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can see them practicing WoL to get a feel for the slight differences between BW and SC2, and then possibly making the official switch when HotS comes out, since that will equalize the playing field.
And then they'll probably crush some skulls and crack some necks. Being an A-Teamer BW player is not something to take lightly.
On January 09 2012 13:45 masterbreti wrote: I really am doubting this. haven't people been saying this since day 1 and it has not happend yet. I doubt to think it would happen while GOM has sc2 broadcasting control as well.
Meh. fOrGG/ oGsFin?
From what I gather from the blog post. He is saying current bw pros. He isn't saying former.
When he says current. It might mean former bw players who lost their jobs when the 3 teams disbanded. Which would mean former bw players. which would be a different thing. and is fairly common nowadays since forgg and hyun switching.
if they mean current bw pros. then they would not be A-Teamers since there is pl and the fact is, they would not practice sc2 while pl is running, unless they did it on spare time.
of them, I would say maybe some of woongjin (flying, guemchi bisang) could fit the described profile. Guemchi went to like gsl open season 2 or something. CJ let idra practice sc2 in the teamhouse, so it's possible someone like Nbs could be playing sc2. KT has fielded all that line up this season, except reach and anyppi. Maybe trap or size on stx (others have been fielded). SKT maybe someone not fielded, like Alone. Samsung khan maybe odin, as he hasn't been fielded. Shine hasn't either but shine definitely wants to play brood war (when his team disbanded, he went out of his way to be able to get on a team when he wasn't put in team 8. Compare this to hiya or midas or some other progamers).
ACE has fielded everyone I think off top of my head except orion (even chavi), but who knows what any ACE member wants to do after they finish their military service. Team 8 shouldn't have anybody coming (that is their entire team).
For some B teamers who knows, some could switch. If there are "top" brood war pros who have been practicing sc2 (and especially note the statement about exclusive sc2 practice), it's not really a "top" current pro.
EDIT: didn't even realize like most of the names I listed as "possible" are the "playing coaches". But seeing as MBCgame's former coach switched (Coach Lee) to coach TSL, maybe some of the player coaches could switch.
Obviously this would be great for Korea, but how would it affect the foreign scene. I assume alot of foriegn viewrs (like myself) cheer for foreigners to win (I know alot of people love the Koreans)
Would the viewership interest still be there for most people if SC2 becomes totally dominated by Koreans even more so then it is now.
On January 09 2012 13:57 magnaflow wrote: Obviously this would be great for Korea, but how would it affect the foreign scene. I assume alot of foriegn viewrs (like myself) cheer for foreigners to win (I know alot of people love the Koreans)
Would the viewership interest still be there for most people if SC2 becomes totally dominated by Koreans even more so then it is now.
If the level of play becomes higher why would anyone care?
I'd rather watch flash/JD than mvp/nestea any day.
I have no obligation to anyone to reveal sources (especially the ones I care about) of information I post on my blog.
I have posted information I have been given, and I have a direct source. Thats all you need to know.
I would not fabricate such a claim without significant evidence. But this is my blog, not CNN. The ‘humour’ and ‘unprofessionalism’ of my blog is evidence of this.
When the players I know that are switching, switch, I will blog accordingly to state that these were the people I am talking about.
On January 09 2012 13:57 magnaflow wrote: Obviously this would be great for Korea, but how would it affect the foreign scene. I assume alot of foriegn viewrs (like myself) cheer for foreigners to win (I know alot of people love the Koreans)
Would the viewership interest still be there for most people if SC2 becomes totally dominated by Koreans even more so then it is now.
If the level of play becomes higher why would anyone care?
I'd rather watch flash/JD than mvp/nestea any day.
I guess. But why was the foreign BW interest so low?
On January 09 2012 13:57 magnaflow wrote: Obviously this would be great for Korea, but how would it affect the foreign scene. I assume alot of foriegn viewrs (like myself) cheer for foreigners to win (I know alot of people love the Koreans)
Would the viewership interest still be there for most people if SC2 becomes totally dominated by Koreans even more so then it is now.
If the level of play becomes higher why would anyone care?
I'd rather watch flash/JD than mvp/nestea any day.
I guess. But why was the foreign BW interest so low?
e-sports was different in 2002? No game had such a large following as sc2 or LoL or dota does now.
On January 09 2012 13:57 magnaflow wrote: Obviously this would be great for Korea, but how would it affect the foreign scene. I assume alot of foriegn viewrs (like myself) cheer for foreigners to win (I know alot of people love the Koreans)
Would the viewership interest still be there for most people if SC2 becomes totally dominated by Koreans even more so then it is now.
If the level of play becomes higher why would anyone care?
I'd rather watch flash/JD than mvp/nestea any day.
I guess. But why was the foreign BW interest so low?
And the SC2 talent pool became that much better. I expect this to be the beginning of the end of foreign players and foreign teams. I don't expect to see companies sponsoring foreigner players that will never have a chance of breaking the top 15 of a tournament if many BW pros switch over. So sad T.T. The current SC2 scene was fun while it lasted.
Look at the last date from spl week 3, That would mean the last date in in Feburary, just around a month from now.
That could be an possbility that pl would switch just after that. But that would throw off the entire spl right now. Because there still is round 4. round 4 would still be a month and a half. So no way the current top players are switching. only likelyhood is maybe former top players who aren't playing anymore since the disbandment. Which tbh none of them were top level players.
On January 09 2012 13:57 magnaflow wrote: Obviously this would be great for Korea, but how would it affect the foreign scene. I assume alot of foriegn viewrs (like myself) cheer for foreigners to win (I know alot of people love the Koreans)
Would the viewership interest still be there for most people if SC2 becomes totally dominated by Koreans even more so then it is now.
If the level of play becomes higher why would anyone care?
I'd rather watch flash/JD than mvp/nestea any day.
I guess. But why was the foreign BW interest so low?
of them, I would say maybe some of woongjin (flying, guemchi bisang) could fit the described profile. Guemchi went to like gsl open season 2 or something. CJ let idra practice sc2 in the teamhouse, so it's possible someone like Nbs could be playing sc2. KT has fielded all that line up this season, except reach and anyppi. Maybe trap or size on stx (others have been fielded). SKT maybe someone not fielded, like Alone. Samsung khan maybe odin, as he hasn't been fielded. Shine hasn't either but shine definitely wants to play brood war (when his team disbanded, he went out of his way to be able to get on a team when he wasn't put in team 8. Compare this to hiya or midas or some other progamers).
ACE has fielded everyone I think off top of my head (even chavi). Team 8 shouldn't have anybody coming (that is their entire team).
For some B teamers who knows, some could switch. If there are "top" brood war pros who have been practicing (and especially note the statement about exclusive sc2 practice), it's not really a "top" current pro.
Is that list official A-Teamers as per rules according to KeSPA? I would consider about a third of those guys A-Teamers. I always thought A-teamer = plays regularly/ semi-regularly in proleague televised matches. Many of those players haven't seen real action in over a year.
On January 09 2012 14:05 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: And the SC2 talent pool became that much better. I expect this to be the beginning of the end of foreign players and foreign teams. I don't expect to see companies sponsoring foreigner players that will never have a chance of breaking the top 15 of a tournament if many BW pros switch over. So sad T.T. The current SC2 scene was fun while it lasted.
A few foreign teams will still be around, they will just be filled with Korean players. What does this do for MLG and all these companies that have grown so much because of SC2. I assume they will slowly start to dwindle away and host other events.
[QUOTE]On January 09 2012 14:09 magnaflow wrote: [QUOTE]On January 09 2012 14:05 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: And the SC2 talent pool became that much better. I expect this to be the beginning of the end of foreign players and foreign teams. I don't expect to see companies sponsoring foreigner players that will never have a chance of breaking the top 15 of a tournament if many BW pros switch over. So sad T.T. The current SC2 scene was fun while it lasted.[QUOTE]
A few foreign teams will still be around, they will just be filled with Korean players. What does this do for MLG and all these companies that have grown so much because of SC2. I assume they will slowly start to dwindle away and host other gamnes as their main attraction like LoL lol.
On January 09 2012 14:07 masterbreti wrote: So no way the current top players are switching. only likelyhood is maybe former top players who aren't playing anymore since the disbandment.
Jesus Christ, never read something so obvious in my life.
of them, I would say maybe some of woongjin (flying, guemchi bisang) could fit the described profile. Guemchi went to like gsl open season 2 or something. CJ let idra practice sc2 in the teamhouse, so it's possible someone like Nbs could be playing sc2. KT has fielded all that line up this season, except reach and anyppi. Maybe trap or size on stx (others have been fielded). SKT maybe someone not fielded, like Alone. Samsung khan maybe odin, as he hasn't been fielded. Shine hasn't either but shine definitely wants to play brood war (when his team disbanded, he went out of his way to be able to get on a team when he wasn't put in team 8. Compare this to hiya or midas or some other progamers).
ACE has fielded everyone I think off top of my head (even chavi). Team 8 shouldn't have anybody coming (that is their entire team).
For some B teamers who knows, some could switch. If there are "top" brood war pros who have been practicing (and especially note the statement about exclusive sc2 practice), it's not really a "top" current pro.
Is that list official A-Teamers as per rules according to KeSPA? I would consider about a third of those guys A-Teamers. I always thought A-teamer = plays regularly/ semi-regularly in proleague televised matches. Many of those players haven't seen real action in over a year.
those are ones that are on december proleague roster. So not all are "A" teamers as we know them (obviously), but they are eligible to play in proleague.
If proleague = A teamer, and B teamer means no proleagu (definition I'm using). More importantly though every person people know as an "A" teamer on that list has played in proleague so far, so the profile described as an "A teamer" who is now practicing sc2 exclusively excludes almost this entire list.
edit--so yeah, many are not "A" teamers but those are ones the coaches are willing to put in proleague and who are on the bench. I certainly don't think any bw pro would go "nah I'm off to play sc2" and only practices sc2 in the teamhouse would be submitted to be eligible in proleague
So if all the low level A teamers start switching, does that mean that BW will just have 15 players who will constantly play against each other? That would be awkward. More likely that it would spiral to the point where top BW players would have no choice but to switch in the not too distant future (assuming that what FXOBoss is saying is true.)
On January 09 2012 14:11 AndAgain wrote: So if all the low level A teamers start switching, does that mean that BW will just have 15 players who will constantly play against each other? That would be awkward. More likely that it would spiral to the point where top BW players would have no choice but to switch in the not too distant future (assuming that what FXOBoss is saying is true.)
That wouldn't be the worst thing in the world... but also that's not the nature of sc2. Even the Unequivocally best player (read: mvp) has was knocked to code B
Hmmm, I wonder if we can speculate and extrapolate from the vague info that Boss had posted.
He says that they are A-teamers, so we are obviously not talking about B-teamers. He says that they had solid and consistent results, which in itself is vague. What would be considered "solid and consistent?" He says that "they only play sc2 now in their practice time," so does this mean that these speculated players are probably not being too active in the current Proleague season? However, if Hydra follows through with his mysterious change to his Twitter profile, then perhaps that might not be the case since he is still quite active in Proleague. However, maybe we can speculate about underperforming players, though that is a tricky and probably flawed analysis.
Of course, we could speculate about the players floating around after the 3 teams disbanded, but I think quite a few of those players have decided to retire rather than switch over. HiyA, Midas, Lomo, and others come to mind. However, I don't think I've seen a full list of players from these teams who have not decided to retire.
Eh, this is obviously exciting news for SC2 fans, but not so much for BW fans if it interferes too much with BW in a negative way. There is still a huge BW following in Korea, and to actively disrupt that scene would open up a huge can of worms if mishandled.
HyuN (BW) / HyuN (SC2) was pretty awful in BW and he qualified for Code A after playing SC2 for only a few months.
I didn't really believe BW players would be able to reach the top level so fast, although I had no doubts they would be able to if they put in a ton of practice like ForGG did. After's HyuN's Code A qualification I now believe I was wrong.
Wait until all these top level A team BW pros realize in starcraft 2 they can and will have plenty of build order losses to players that never should be beating them. I still do not think any of them will dominate someone like mvp or even be significantly better. I dont see what they can do so much better then mvp or leenock to consistently win.
On January 09 2012 13:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can see them practicing WoL to get a feel for the slight differences between BW and SC2, and then possibly making the official switch when HotS comes out, since that will equalize the playing field.
And then they'll probably crush some skulls and crack some necks. Being an A-Teamer BW player is not something to take lightly.
Yeah, a whole bunch of players above MVPs level at average, which means some will be even better.
MVP was not what most ppl would consider an A-teamer.
On January 09 2012 14:22 Vehemus wrote: HyuN (BW) / HyuN (SC2) was pretty awful in BW and he qualified for Code A after playing SC2 for only a few months.
I didn't really believe BW players would be able to reach the top level so fast, although I had no doubts they would be able to if they put in a ton of practice like ForGG did. After's HyuN's Code A qualification I now believe I was wrong.
He beat stork a while ago... I wouldn't call him awful... He wasn't doing so well at the end... but meh.
On January 09 2012 14:07 Boblhead wrote: Im guessing ongamenet purchased rights to broadcast sc2 from gom, so sc2 in msl! my guess
never understood why people think ogn would broadcast sc2 over gom.
CJ owns both Gretech and OnMedia, they can use one for each.
maybe because GOM has shit commentators (from what I heard, some of them were former OGN), not so good cameraman, and mainly OGN is actually a channel
I like GOM's commentators. I learn quite a lot from listening to them. Gisado is a damn good strategy analyst in particular, although he talks too damn much.
On January 09 2012 14:20 eviltomahawk wrote: Eh, this is obviously exciting news for SC2 fans, but not so much for BW fans if it interferes too much with BW in a negative way.
I think it's really more of an issue of over-hyping the definition of "A team pros". Objective measure of current A team pro (proleague appearance or starleague) really makes you dehype the announcement. A bw pro isn't going to be playing sc2 in practice time if they were to appear in proleague (or be submitted for the lineup to kespa for proleague. but that's my opinion).
I'd say most likely is someone like Major, who beat BeSt in like an OSL qualifier and was on Wemade fox (now disbanded). Showed some solid play and had a decent record, and is young enough to want to continue being a progamer after Wemade disbanding. Certainly fits the 5-month profile (end of last season proleague, etc).
But who's going to go crazy over some people like Major being professional sc2? Never_V_/forGG/ogsFin (whatever you want to call him) was a starleague winner and Hyun was a pretty consistent A-teamer and made group selection stages of starleagues.
Players from wemade/mbc/hwaseung (like perfectman) are best bets. The announcement is misleading towards players who are even in teams to have "practice time".
Unless CJ blows my mind and throws out an sc2 lineup. Idra did play sc2 in the CJ house and I didn't even know CJ (apparently) owns Gretech as posted in this thread.
On January 09 2012 14:27 snakeeyez wrote: Wait until all these top level A team BW pros realize in starcraft 2 they can and will have plenty of build order losses to players that never should be beating them. I still do not think any of them will dominate someone like mvp or even be significantly better. I dont see what they can do so much better then mvp or leenock to consistently win.
Well for starters with mvp, he can stop queueing 3-4 scv's at each command center, stop having his money slip to 1000 before the 15 minute mark. Sure they are really good, but they are far, far away from perfect.
On January 09 2012 14:19 Garnet wrote: I can't think of anyone. Who's doing badly in PL?
yeah neither can I.
everyone has stepped up their game this season.
until a real news site like Dailyesports or fomos said so I won't take this as seriously as most people here are.
Well doing badly doesn't necessarily mean they're switching. Form fluctuations are pretty standard.
There are a couple that are underperforming, Mind, Action, Calm for instance while others aren't getting much TV presence anymore. But that doesn't really mean much.
It's pretty useless to discuss this anyway as it's baseless assumptions without any real content.
On January 09 2012 14:11 AndAgain wrote: So if all the low level A teamers start switching, does that mean that BW will just have 15 players who will constantly play against each other? That would be awkward. More likely that it would spiral to the point where top BW players would have no choice but to switch in the not too distant future (assuming that what FXOBoss is saying is true.)
There's been like 3 decent BW players that have switched, I think it's extremely premature to speculate that BW is going to run out of players.
On January 09 2012 14:27 snakeeyez wrote: Wait until all these top level A team BW pros realize in starcraft 2 they can and will have plenty of build order losses to players that never should be beating them. I still do not think any of them will dominate someone like mvp or even be significantly better. I dont see what they can do so much better then mvp or leenock to consistently win.
Well for starters with mvp, he can stop queueing 3-4 scv's at each command center, stop having his money slip to 1000 before the 15 minute mark. Sure they are really good, but they are far, far away from perfect.
You would need to be more specific then that. I dont think he consistently does that if you watch GSL matches where he has time to prepare specific builds and I do not remember his minerals consistently going over 1000. I would argue the top korean pro players play close to perfect right now. A human only has so much apm and so much multitasking. Every person even flash or jaedong loses games and makes mistakes they are just humans.
Should be interesting. Hoping that they make a smooth transition but one that won't completely mess up the scene for those who have been working hard at it for a while
And suddenly the Jaedong v Canata game makes sense. Ikid, but I do wonder how high profile those switching are. Hope we see some people who really started performing over the past couple years (like Soulkey or Killer) but the best real hope is probably proleague regulars like Horang2.
On January 09 2012 13:50 awwnuts07 wrote: Unless it's the BW top dogs, I can't really say I'm super interested.
Are you serious? These guys are on level or better than people like MVP or ForGG.
If you're not interested for that... Wow.
Just because they're probably better in BW, doesn't mean they'll destory sc2....
Yes it does. There's a reason Mvp is easily the best player in the world right now. He can beat other 'top' players (albeit on the ladder) using off races. ForGG/Fin already looks amazing compared to the current players. It's a different game but the concepts and mechanics translate.
This is nothing but good news for the SC2. Why do people care what race the players are so much? Better play is better play.
On January 09 2012 14:27 snakeeyez wrote: Wait until all these top level A team BW pros realize in starcraft 2 they can and will have plenty of build order losses to players that never should be beating them. I still do not think any of them will dominate someone like mvp or even be significantly better. I dont see what they can do so much better then mvp or leenock to consistently win.
Well for starters with mvp, he can stop queueing 3-4 scv's at each command center, stop having his money slip to 1000 before the 15 minute mark. Sure they are really good, but they are far, far away from perfect.
You would need to be more specific then that. I dont think he consistently does that if you watch GSL matches where he has time to prepare specific builds and I do not remember his minerals consistently going over 1000. I would argue the top korean pro players play close to perfect right now. A human only has so much apm and so much multitasking. Every person even flash or jaedong loses games and makes mistakes they are just humans.
On January 09 2012 14:22 Vehemus wrote: HyuN (BW) / HyuN (SC2) was pretty awful in BW and he qualified for Code A after playing SC2 for only a few months.
I didn't really believe BW players would be able to reach the top level so fast, although I had no doubts they would be able to if they put in a ton of practice like ForGG did. After's HyuN's Code A qualification I now believe I was wrong.
Precision (mouse movement...etc) from these A level BW pros is unreal. All you have to see is how MVP is ForGG plays. The precision is just on a different level. I'd love to see MMA play just so I can compare his precision with other top SC2 players.
I once watched the show B-Net Attack on MBCGames where they had Jaedong as a guest. After watching him play (from his point of view), I can truely believe that he is a legit 500 APM guy (and I don't mean just spamming the same hot key). I can only imagine what he'd do as SC2 zerg... with Queens and creep spread... he can probably beat half the current SC2 pros with only zerglings.
TBH, if these BW pros aren't higher level than MVP, forGG, MC and NesTea, it doesn't mean much for me personally. May be except for higher competition and better general play in GSL Code A and S. But I don't have time to stay up to watch it, and with their childish attitude towards Naniwa, they killed the interest for me.
I'd be interested if really high level ones are switching. And of course if VODs are available. I don't like this waiting until 5 am and watching business. I wouldn't do that for free, let alone pay for it.
On January 09 2012 14:38 Jehct wrote: And suddenly the Jaedong v Canata game makes sense. Ikid, but I do wonder how high profile those switching are. Hope we see some people who really started performing over the past couple years (like Soulkey or Killer) but the best real hope is probably proleague regulars like Horang2.
Hope this doesn't hurt BW too much =(
Doesn't make sense. If someone had been solely practicing SC2 they wouldn't be sent out in Proleague, so it can't be someone who is active.
On January 09 2012 14:45 Xxavi wrote: TBH, if these BW pros aren't higher level than MVP, forGG, MC and NesTea, it doesn't mean much for me personally. May be except for higher competition and better general play in GSL Code A and S. But I don't have time to stay up to watch it, and with their childish attitude towards Naniwa, they killed the interest for me.
I'd be interested if really high level ones are switching. And of course if VODs are available. I don't like this waiting until 5 am and watching business. I wouldn't do that for free, let alone pay for it.
On January 09 2012 14:38 Jehct wrote: And suddenly the Jaedong v Canata game makes sense. Ikid, but I do wonder how high profile those switching are. Hope we see some people who really started performing over the past couple years (like Soulkey or Killer) but the best real hope is probably proleague regulars like Horang2.
Hope this doesn't hurt BW too much =(
It came to my mind too! (no wonder he didin't make hydra's for anti-air that game -_- )
But w/ respect to the topic, and the many more that will come out this year: it's GOING to happen. Period. It's just a matter of when. What exactly will happen? The un-informed will soon see.
I'm really interested in this since these guys are still in their original bw team as they transition(?) so probably have a strict training regimen. I know MVP house does a lot of in house training, since DRG used to stream a lot.. but some other team seem pretty relax about it and mostly ladder a lot (like huk said in slayers house interview 99% ladder and ppl often says ladder is a joke) so possibly these bw guy might be able to practice more effectively ..
Current top Sc2 pros have insane talent, but their play is far from perfect. Hopefully the BW pros will invigorate the scene and raise the level of play.
On January 09 2012 14:38 Jehct wrote: And suddenly the Jaedong v Canata game makes sense. Ikid, but I do wonder how high profile those switching are. Hope we see some people who really started performing over the past couple years (like Soulkey or Killer) but the best real hope is probably proleague regulars like Horang2.
Hope this doesn't hurt BW too much =(
Doesn't make sense. If someone had been solely practicing SC2 they wouldn't be sent out in Proleague, so it can't be someone who is active.
Agree. It's probably those players whose teams were disbanded. However, it's also naive to think that Korean BW is turning blind eyes to the SC2 boom happening in both NA and EU. They know what's happening, the potential of SC2 not only in Korea but also globally, and most importantly KeSPA seems to be on board with it as well.
BW isn't going anywhere in Korea. It still has a lot of followers. With that said, I think KeSPA will definitely try to take advantage of the overseas market with SC2.
They have been playing sc2 for approximately 5 months so far, and from what I am told, they only play sc2 now during practice time.
If this is true, then the players switching aren't players really worth getting too excited for. There's been no noticeable decline in play among BW players (except Sea ... ) and you obviously can't remain as a top BW player if you're only practicing SC2. The most logical assumption would be the A-teamers from Hwaseung/MBC/Wemade who didn't get picked up like Anytime, Lomo, Pure, etc. I mean, FXOBoss wouldn't be incorrect to call these guys consistent A-teamers but they don't represent a significant difference in skill level compared to the likes of Mvp, fOrGG or Hyun.
I am intrigued by the whole 40 days thing. It's pretty strange that they would all switch at the same time. I would assume this means Kespa will be setting up their own league and maybe even their own teams to serve as a competitior to GOM.
of them, I would say maybe some of woongjin (flying, guemchi bisang) could fit the described profile. Guemchi went to like gsl open season 2 or something. CJ let idra practice sc2 in the teamhouse, so it's possible someone like Nbs could be playing sc2. KT has fielded all that line up this season, except reach and anyppi. Maybe trap or size on stx (others have been fielded). SKT maybe someone not fielded, like Alone. Samsung khan maybe odin, as he hasn't been fielded. Shine hasn't either but shine definitely wants to play brood war (when his team disbanded, he went out of his way to be able to get on a team when he wasn't put in team 8. Compare this to hiya or midas or some other progamers).
ACE has fielded everyone I think off top of my head (even chavi). Team 8 shouldn't have anybody coming (that is their entire team).
For some B teamers who knows, some could switch. If there are "top" brood war pros who have been practicing (and especially note the statement about exclusive sc2 practice), it's not really a "top" current pro.
Is that list official A-Teamers as per rules according to KeSPA? I would consider about a third of those guys A-Teamers. I always thought A-teamer = plays regularly/ semi-regularly in proleague televised matches. Many of those players haven't seen real action in over a year.
those are ones that are on december proleague roster. So not all are "A" teamers as we know them (obviously), but they are eligible to play in proleague.
If proleague = A teamer, and B teamer means no proleagu (definition I'm using). More importantly though every person people know as an "A" teamer on that list has played in proleague so far, so the profile described as an "A teamer" who is now practicing sc2 exclusively excludes almost this entire list.
edit--so yeah, many are not "A" teamers but those are ones the coaches are willing to put in proleague and who are on the bench. I certainly don't think any bw pro would go "nah I'm off to play sc2" and only practices sc2 in the teamhouse would be submitted to be eligible in proleague
Well what I was getting was if those are the guys who could be switching to be, or if the "real" A-teamers (our definition) are the guys who are switching. If the A-teamers by our definition are indeed switching, that narrows the field considerably to almost every single current proleague a-teamer. If that is the case, BW will effectively die, and it won't be long before everyone else switches over. That would be bittersweet imo because I love me some BW, not to mention it would effectively kill the foreign scene at the same time, since what foreigners we do have would be entirely outclassed by the A-teamers switching over.
EDIT: Thought that there were 40 players switching over, the days part didn't register. i don't think this will kill BW
On January 09 2012 14:22 Vehemus wrote: HyuN (BW) / HyuN (SC2) was pretty awful in BW and he qualified for Code A after playing SC2 for only a few months.
I didn't really believe BW players would be able to reach the top level so fast, although I had no doubts they would be able to if they put in a ton of practice like ForGG did. After's HyuN's Code A qualification I now believe I was wrong.
Precision (mouse movement...etc) from these A level BW pros is unreal. All you have to see is how MVP is ForGG plays. The precision is just on a different level. I'd love to see MMA play just so I can compare his precision with other top SC2 players.
I once watched the show B-Net Attack on MBCGames where they had Jaedong as a guest. After watching him play (from his point of view), I can truely believe that he is a legit 500 APM guy (and I don't mean just spamming the same hot key). I can only imagine what he'd do as SC2 zerg... with Queens and creep spread... he can probably beat half the current SC2 pros with only zerglings.
When he gets the flow of larva injects he will have flawless injects for sure. Add creep spread and shit to that, he will break the game lul. ^_^
Anyway, for now: Enjoy BW and Proleague and let's talk about these guys when they actually stop playing BW and there is a official switch!
more high level players is ofc good always a good thinkg, but they bring kespa more and more in sc2 and i dont want them to split the professional scene
On January 09 2012 14:07 Boblhead wrote: Im guessing ongamenet purchased rights to broadcast sc2 from gom, so sc2 in msl! my guess
never understood why people think ogn would broadcast sc2 over gom.
CJ owns both Gretech and OnMedia, they can use one for each.
maybe because GOM has shit commentators (from what I heard, some of them were former OGN), not so good cameraman, and mainly OGN is actually a channel
i don't know about the korean commentators, but startale_legend (the obs for gsl) is amazing! he captures all the action, including drops and run bys, he has a flair for the cinematic (camera manipulation), and points things out with his mouse to the viewer (things being researched, mistakes made by players such as pause in SCV production).
even the little things are great, like showing every nuke launch, or focusing on a building such as the twilight council (citadel) right before it begins to research (as a high level player, he often knows what the pros will do before they do it).
i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on SC2? They went from calling it an amateur prize hunter league to finally recognizing GSL is even a tournament. Remember all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
It's upsetting basically being confirmed that big names are gonna switch over, it really makes me wonder who/what teams are going to be going to SC2... I feel like it could easily be any of them. With all these sources saying really big names are switching over, I really wanna know how much time TLBS is putting into SC2, along w/ Fantasy, ZerO, Sea, etc. Cause they're all playing it obviously ( D: ), but full time is pretty ridiculous, I REALLY wanna know, it's like so suspenseful!!!
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
No damnit. Don't go pulling this "Only Korean BW is E-Sports" shit again. E-Sports is fine, Korean BW is dying, there is a very distinct difference.
KeSPA is not E-Sports. The millions and millions of dollars and millions of viewers for other games besides BW all over the world is light years ahead of a system where they control.
learn to read. i have never, ever, said that by YOUR definition that was true. I said i didn't like that definitio so defined my own term/definition. It's not the same fucking thing.
Which you would have figured out if you and everyone learned how to fucking read instead of bandwagonning off some DJWheat post which was a rash emotional response and had nothing to do with what i was implying. So why dont you and the rest of the community stop putting words in my mouth?
In fact before DJ Wheat made that rather rash post people actually picked up on that I defined things differently and commented on that. Amusingly enough the second he made that post all of that was ignored and it was just a lynch mob from that point.
anyway i'm obviously referring to korean esports which is bw/sc2. korean esports is doomed unless LoL picks up to be the new hot thing which is strongly heading towards that direction (so i guess it's not too doomed)
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
No damnit. Don't go pulling this "Only Korean BW is E-Sports" shit again. E-Sports is fine, Korean BW is dying, there is a very distinct difference.
KeSPA is not E-Sports. The millions and millions of dollars and millions of viewers for other games besides BW all over the world is light years ahead of a system where they control.
learn to read. i have never, ever, said that by YOUR definition that was true. I said i didn't like that definitionI defined my own term/definition. Which you would have figured out if you and everyone learned how to fucking read instead of bandwagonning off some DJWheat post which was a rash emotional response and had nothing to do with what i was implying. So why dont you and the rest of the community stop putting words in my mouth?
anyway i'm obviously referring to korean esports which is bw/sc2. korean esports is doomed unless LoL picks up to be the new hot thing which is strongly heading towards that direction.
Uh what?
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support.
You don't just get to redefine defined terms because you want to personally. E-Sports is many games, no matter how much it seems to bug you.
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
No damnit. Don't go pulling this "Only Korean BW is E-Sports" shit again. E-Sports is fine, Korean BW is dying, there is a very distinct difference.
KeSPA is not E-Sports. The millions and millions of dollars and millions of viewers for other games besides BW all over the world is light years ahead of a system where they control.
learn to read. i have never, ever, said that by YOUR definition that was true. I said i didn't like that definitionI defined my own term/definition. Which you would have figured out if you and everyone learned how to fucking read instead of bandwagonning off some DJWheat post which was a rash emotional response and had nothing to do with what i was implying. So why dont you and the rest of the community stop putting words in my mouth?
anyway i'm obviously referring to korean esports which is bw/sc2. korean esports is doomed unless LoL picks up to be the new hot thing which is strongly heading towards that direction.
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support.
did you miss the part where i said
"Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future. "
stop being a fucking pedant and just accept that i didn't mean it that way. Is it really that important that you try to fit me into your biased opinion based on a post i admitted that was worded badly?
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
No damnit. Don't go pulling this "Only Korean BW is E-Sports" shit again. E-Sports is fine, Korean BW is dying, there is a very distinct difference.
KeSPA is not E-Sports. The millions and millions of dollars and millions of viewers for other games besides BW all over the world is light years ahead of a system where they control.
learn to read. i have never, ever, said that by YOUR definition that was true. I said i didn't like that definitionI defined my own term/definition. Which you would have figured out if you and everyone learned how to fucking read instead of bandwagonning off some DJWheat post which was a rash emotional response and had nothing to do with what i was implying. So why dont you and the rest of the community stop putting words in my mouth?
anyway i'm obviously referring to korean esports which is bw/sc2. korean esports is doomed unless LoL picks up to be the new hot thing which is strongly heading towards that direction.
Uh what?
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support.
did you miss the part where i said
"Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future. "
stop being a fucking pedant and just accept that i didn't mean it that way. Is it really that important that you try to fit me into your biased opinion based on a post i admitted that was worded badly?
Actually I totally did as I speed read, my mistake. Sorry.
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
No damnit. Don't go pulling this "Only Korean BW is E-Sports" shit again. E-Sports is fine, Korean BW is dying, there is a very distinct difference. This is the exact same stuff that got you in hot water before.
KeSPA is not E-Sports. The millions and millions of dollars and millions of viewers for other games besides BW (SC2, LoL, DoTA2, etc) all over the world is light years ahead of a system where they control. The worse they can do is fuck up SC2 (which obv would have huge ramifications) but even at this point heading into 2012 I think it's past their control even.
errrr? where did he say "Only Korean BW is E-Sports" i didn't see him post that anywhere in there and i just read the whole thing..?
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
No damnit. Don't go pulling this "Only Korean BW is E-Sports" shit again. E-Sports is fine, Korean BW is dying, there is a very distinct difference.
KeSPA is not E-Sports. The millions and millions of dollars and millions of viewers for other games besides BW all over the world is light years ahead of a system where they control.
learn to read. i have never, ever, said that by YOUR definition that was true. I said i didn't like that definitionI defined my own term/definition. Which you would have figured out if you and everyone learned how to fucking read instead of bandwagonning off some DJWheat post which was a rash emotional response and had nothing to do with what i was implying. So why dont you and the rest of the community stop putting words in my mouth?
anyway i'm obviously referring to korean esports which is bw/sc2. korean esports is doomed unless LoL picks up to be the new hot thing which is strongly heading towards that direction.
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support.
You don't just get to redefine defined terms because you want to personally. E-Sports is many games, no matter how much it seems to bug you.
I'm not agreeing with Milkis at all here, but what other games could really be considered an e-sport other then Starcraft. Other games are surely more popular but when it comes to the skill and dediacation needed Starcraft is where it's at. Any other game doesn't come close.
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
I think all of this makes sense, and most of it (not details like timing, etc.) has been pretty obvious for a while, even to me (and I don't follow BW at all). What I'm more curious about is how KeSPA fits into things in SC2. They're not going to have monopoly control like they did in BW, so what happens? (Or are they going to try to get monopoly control?) It's probably in the interest of the individual teams to basically dissolve KeSPA, since it can't do it's old thing when half the teams in the game aren't part of it. That or it needs to try to include the SC2 teams? Or have separate tournaments and exclude them, and hope its tournaments win? How do foreigners fit in? Clearly they must see the potential in the foreign market, but there's no way on earth the foreign scene accepts them as a governing body now. I could see the transition being very messy, and it seems like getting through that successfully is going to be one of the biggest hurdles for SC2 to grow.
I always try to see if I can learn anything from these threads, but all I see is half posts that are wrong people arguing with wrong people, and the other half of the posts are "I think it would be cool if X switched" or "I think X switched already".
I think of the top brood war pros FXO is referring to might be Jaedong. He's been in a slump recently (probably cause he's been practicing alot of SC2?) He even stated he would be switching to SC2 eventually, so this could be the time...Fans follow the teams and players...And Jaedong wants to play at foreign events as well (Like MLG)
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
No damnit. Don't go pulling this "Only Korean BW is E-Sports" shit again. E-Sports is fine, Korean BW is dying, there is a very distinct difference.
KeSPA is not E-Sports. The millions and millions of dollars and millions of viewers for other games besides BW all over the world is light years ahead of a system where they control.
learn to read. i have never, ever, said that by YOUR definition that was true. I said i didn't like that definitionI defined my own term/definition. Which you would have figured out if you and everyone learned how to fucking read instead of bandwagonning off some DJWheat post which was a rash emotional response and had nothing to do with what i was implying. So why dont you and the rest of the community stop putting words in my mouth?
anyway i'm obviously referring to korean esports which is bw/sc2. korean esports is doomed unless LoL picks up to be the new hot thing which is strongly heading towards that direction.
Uh what?
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support.
You don't just get to redefine defined terms because you want to personally. E-Sports is many games, no matter how much it seems to bug you.
I'm not agreeing with Milkis at all here, but what other games could really be considered an e-sport other then Starcraft. Other games are surely more popular but when it comes to the skill and dediacation needed Starcraft is where it's at. Any other game doesn't come close.
Starcraft is in my opinion the premiere E-Sport but there is more E-Sports. It's like saying only Baseball is a sport because it's the best or biggest or whatever which would be inaccurate.
FBH vs MC in ceremony wars. For that to happen FBH cannot be in oGs. But I would love SKT1 merging with oGs. MC, Bisu, By.Sun, ForGG, Fantasy.. GSTL champion everytime!
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
I think all of this makes sense, and most of it (not details like timing, etc.) has been pretty obvious for a while, even to me (and I don't follow BW at all). What I'm more curious about is how KeSPA fits into things in SC2. They're not going to have monopoly control like they did in BW, so what happens? (Or are they going to try to get monopoly control?) It's probably in the interest of the individual teams to basically dissolve KeSPA, since it can't do it's old thing when half the teams in the game aren't part of it. That or it needs to try to include the SC2 teams? Or have separate tournaments and exclude them, and hope its tournaments win? How do foreigners fit in? Clearly they must see the potential in the foreign market, but there's no way on earth the foreign scene accepts them as a governing body now. I could see the transition being very messy, and it seems like getting through that successfully is going to be one of the biggest hurdles for SC2 to grow.
answer to any of that is speculation and the actual fact of what's going on changes way too much on a monthly basis so it's really hard to comment. we'll probably have to wait and see on most of the questions you've mentioned.
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
I think all of this makes sense, and most of it (not details like timing, etc.) has been pretty obvious for a while, even to me (and I don't follow BW at all). What I'm more curious about is how KeSPA fits into things in SC2. They're not going to have monopoly control like they did in BW, so what happens? (Or are they going to try to get monopoly control?) It's probably in the interest of the individual teams to basically dissolve KeSPA, since it can't do it's old thing when half the teams in the game aren't part of it. That or it needs to try to include the SC2 teams? Or have separate tournaments and exclude them, and hope its tournaments win? How do foreigners fit in? Clearly they must see the potential in the foreign market, but there's no way on earth the foreign scene accepts them as a governing body now. I could see the transition being very messy, and it seems like getting through that successfully is going to be one of the biggest hurdles for SC2 to grow.
For all we know Kespa could be left behind and teams/players may try to go out on thier own. Picking up individual sponsors like all the other SC2 teams have been doing. Maybe thats what the plans are and Kespa is just trying to get a piece of the pie.
guys, most of the amazing scbw players haven't been that great, the bonjwa, NaDa hasn't put up beastly scores recently, MVP was minorly good, ogsfin / forGG was good, but not great, JulyZerg, one of the great zergs lost to HuK at dreamhack. The games are very different, i'm not saying they won't be good, i'm saying most of them won't be all they are cracked up to be. Boxer doesn't dominate the scene, NaDa doesn't dominate the scene, its MVP and Nestea and MMA and Ganzi, and of those, 3/4 were not great at BW.
On January 09 2012 15:46 Colonial wrote: I think of the top brood war pros FXO is referring to might be Jaedong. He's been in a slump recently (probably cause he's been practicing alot of SC2?) He even stated he would be switching to SC2 eventually, so this could be the time...Fans follow the teams and players...And Jaedong wants to play at foreign events as well (Like MLG)
I see it happening if team 8 disolves from doing so poorly ( so far )
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
I think all of this makes sense, and most of it (not details like timing, etc.) has been pretty obvious for a while, even to me (and I don't follow BW at all). What I'm more curious about is how KeSPA fits into things in SC2. They're not going to have monopoly control like they did in BW, so what happens? (Or are they going to try to get monopoly control?) It's probably in the interest of the individual teams to basically dissolve KeSPA, since it can't do it's old thing when half the teams in the game aren't part of it. That or it needs to try to include the SC2 teams? Or have separate tournaments and exclude them, and hope its tournaments win? How do foreigners fit in? Clearly they must see the potential in the foreign market, but there's no way on earth the foreign scene accepts them as a governing body now. I could see the transition being very messy, and it seems like getting through that successfully is going to be one of the biggest hurdles for SC2 to grow.
dissolving kespa is the first thing to destroy korean esports. the fact that esports are still alive is because of big name companies behind the organisation known as kespa sponsoring these teams.
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
No damnit. Don't go pulling this "Only Korean BW is E-Sports" shit again. E-Sports is fine, Korean BW is dying, there is a very distinct difference.
KeSPA is not E-Sports. The millions and millions of dollars and millions of viewers for other games besides BW all over the world is light years ahead of a system where they control.
learn to read. i have never, ever, said that by YOUR definition that was true. I said i didn't like that definitionI defined my own term/definition. Which you would have figured out if you and everyone learned how to fucking read instead of bandwagonning off some DJWheat post which was a rash emotional response and had nothing to do with what i was implying. So why dont you and the rest of the community stop putting words in my mouth?
anyway i'm obviously referring to korean esports which is bw/sc2. korean esports is doomed unless LoL picks up to be the new hot thing which is strongly heading towards that direction.
Uh what?
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support.
You don't just get to redefine defined terms because you want to personally. E-Sports is many games, no matter how much it seems to bug you.
I'm not agreeing with Milkis at all here, but what other games could really be considered an e-sport other then Starcraft. Other games are surely more popular but when it comes to the skill and dediacation needed Starcraft is where it's at. Any other game doesn't come close.
Starcraft is in my opinion the premiere E-Sport but there is more E-Sports. It's like saying only Baseball is a sport because it's the best or biggest or whatever which would be inaccurate.
True, but starcraft is the MLB, anything else is minor league
im excited to see more top level pros switch over, however i hope atleast 1 more big tournament springs up for KOREA , because all they have is the GSL, which is not enough to support so many players. Basically they be living out of their cars .
im going to guess Classic he has only played one game since the summer, where he lost, so that fits "relatively inactive" STX have been underperforming, and could "cut the fat" from their roster a bit. Hell, they put their entire roster up for trade.
On January 09 2012 15:43 power-overwhelming wrote: Imagine Fantasy in sc2..
Failing at Bio play? Crying when he learns he can't hide buildings to drag out the game?
Anyways, I doubt anyone good is switching. I think some of the Koreans would have let something slip. It isn't like they live in a vacuum,we do have access to some players streams from the disbanded teams who play BW on Fish, and they are in contact with current pros. Probably players like Paralyze, Byul, Ssak, by.hero.
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
I think all of this makes sense, and most of it (not details like timing, etc.) has been pretty obvious for a while, even to me (and I don't follow BW at all). What I'm more curious about is how KeSPA fits into things in SC2. They're not going to have monopoly control like they did in BW, so what happens? (Or are they going to try to get monopoly control?) It's probably in the interest of the individual teams to basically dissolve KeSPA, since it can't do it's old thing when half the teams in the game aren't part of it. That or it needs to try to include the SC2 teams? Or have separate tournaments and exclude them, and hope its tournaments win? How do foreigners fit in? Clearly they must see the potential in the foreign market, but there's no way on earth the foreign scene accepts them as a governing body now. I could see the transition being very messy, and it seems like getting through that successfully is going to be one of the biggest hurdles for SC2 to grow.
dissolving kespa is the first thing to destroy korean esports. the fact that esports are still alive is because of big name companies behind the organisation known as kespa sponsoring these teams.
But the motivation to sponsor the teams is advertising, right? And if the teams had just as many (or more) fans/viewers then the same motivation would still exist, right? Why would KeSPA not existing make the sponsorships go away? I know that right now the sponsors sort of control things, but I don't see any reason why that needs to be true. In one scenario, companies run a smaller business that generates publicity. In another, other businesses generate publicity, which they sell to other businesses (sponsors). Either is completely feasible, but the difference isn't actually that big a deal, and every other sport in the world works on the second model. Sponsors don't normally own major sports teams, nor do they get a vote in how the leagues are run. The leagues still have to run in a way sponsors like, though, because the sponsors are the real customers.
On January 09 2012 15:45 Wolf wrote: I always try to see if I can learn anything from these threads, but all I see is half posts that are wrong people arguing with wrong people, and the other half of the posts are "I think it would be cool if X switched" or "I think X switched already".
Too bad you know more than a lot of people D:, not much for you to learn from people not living in Korea like you ;P.
On January 09 2012 15:46 Colonial wrote: I think of the top brood war pros FXO is referring to might be Jaedong. He's been in a slump recently (probably cause he's been practicing alot of SC2?) He even stated he would be switching to SC2 eventually, so this could be the time...Fans follow the teams and players...And Jaedong wants to play at foreign events as well (Like MLG)
I see it happening if team 8 disolves from doing so poorly ( so far )
On January 09 2012 15:56 deadmau wrote: I'm a tad confused with Milkis' League of Legends comment. What does LoL have to do with Korean e-sports? Would it give it a boost or something?
I think what he meant is that LoL is becoming the go to game in Korea.
Meh...couple of lower level A-teamer switching to SC2 wouldn't make that big of impact on the scene. SC2 is a different game with lesser mechanic requirement. I don't see the top dogs switching as they are still being paid the big checks no SC2 team can afford.
On January 09 2012 15:46 power-overwhelming wrote: FBH vs MC in ceremony wars. For that to happen FBH cannot be in oGs. But I would love SKT1 merging with oGs. MC, Bisu, By.Sun, ForGG, Fantasy.. GSTL champion everytime!
If the Brood War teams switched, they would just buy up all the good players. CJ, KHAN, SKT1, and KT have cash. A lot more than any of the SC2 teams.
On January 09 2012 13:52 Golgotha wrote: a little birdy? were gonna need something more substantive or else this post doesn't really provide any new information that we did not already know.
On January 09 2012 15:56 deadmau wrote: I'm a tad confused with Milkis' League of Legends comment. What does LoL have to do with Korean e-sports? Would it give it a boost or something?
I think what he meant is that LoL is becoming the go to game in Korea.
On January 09 2012 15:50 docvoc wrote: guys, most of the amazing scbw players haven't been that great, the bonjwa, NaDa hasn't put up beastly scores recently, MVP was minorly good, ogsfin / forGG was good, but not great, JulyZerg, one of the great zergs lost to HuK at dreamhack. The games are very different, i'm not saying they won't be good, i'm saying most of them won't be all they are cracked up to be. Boxer doesn't dominate the scene, NaDa doesn't dominate the scene, its MVP and Nestea and MMA and Ganzi, and of those, 3/4 were not great at BW.
Yes because NaDa, July and BoxeR was killing everything when they switched, right? No, they were the old generation and their time was pretty much over.
On January 09 2012 15:50 docvoc wrote: guys, most of the amazing scbw players haven't been that great, the bonjwa, NaDa hasn't put up beastly scores recently, MVP was minorly good, ogsfin / forGG was good, but not great, JulyZerg, one of the great zergs lost to HuK at dreamhack. The games are very different, i'm not saying they won't be good, i'm saying most of them won't be all they are cracked up to be. Boxer doesn't dominate the scene, NaDa doesn't dominate the scene, its MVP and Nestea and MMA and Ganzi, and of those, 3/4 were not great at BW.
You need to shore up on your BW history a little more before trying to make such statements. Boxer, Nada and July have all performed marvelously in SC2, much better than they would have had they stayed in BW.
On January 09 2012 15:50 docvoc wrote: guys, most of the amazing scbw players haven't been that great, the bonjwa, NaDa hasn't put up beastly scores recently, MVP was minorly good, ogsfin / forGG was good, but not great, JulyZerg, one of the great zergs lost to HuK at dreamhack. The games are very different, i'm not saying they won't be good, i'm saying most of them won't be all they are cracked up to be. Boxer doesn't dominate the scene, NaDa doesn't dominate the scene, its MVP and Nestea and MMA and Ganzi, and of those, 3/4 were not great at BW.
Yes because NaDa, July and BoxeR was killing everything when they switched, right? No, they were the old generation and their time was pretty much over.
Bad example.
while i agree with him to some extent, his examples were bad. My feeling is the game is too different for them to actually just hop in and dominate ezpz.
What I really want is a mass switch of teams from BW to SC2 and have them duke it out with current sc2 korean teams in GSTL or maybe another league. I guess I will have to wait till goms exclusive rights is over.
On January 09 2012 15:56 deadmau wrote: I'm a tad confused with Milkis' League of Legends comment. What does LoL have to do with Korean e-sports? Would it give it a boost or something?
I think what he meant is that LoL is becoming the go to game in Korea.
people actually going to watch that on t.v or turn up to a live audience to view that piece of shit? If that ever becomes the case esports in general should be written off. Nada lost me as a fan long time ago when he made that retarded LOL commercial.
On January 09 2012 15:50 docvoc wrote: guys, most of the amazing scbw players haven't been that great, the bonjwa, NaDa hasn't put up beastly scores recently, MVP was minorly good, ogsfin / forGG was good, but not great, JulyZerg, one of the great zergs lost to HuK at dreamhack. The games are very different, i'm not saying they won't be good, i'm saying most of them won't be all they are cracked up to be. Boxer doesn't dominate the scene, NaDa doesn't dominate the scene, its MVP and Nestea and MMA and Ganzi, and of those, 3/4 were not great at BW.
Yes because NaDa, July and BoxeR was killing everything when they switched, right? No, they were the old generation and their time was pretty much over.
Bad example.
while i agree with him to some extent, his examples were bad. My feeling is the game is too different for them to actually just hop in and dominate ezpz.
dominate no. no bw followers expected much. it is more of a cool factor to watch them transfer over due to their history and the opportunity to do well in a new game rather than expectation. they switched because they are no longer good enough at bw. but hey they are still doing well in sc2.
Well I am very excited as I am sure others are, to see the high level of play they bring. These guys still have brood war mechanics (no point in arguing this, broodwar had harder mechanics than SC2 plain and simple).
What I am most curious about is that if BW s declining as rapidly as it seems, will top A team players (Hydra, Stork, etc.) make the switch now and start to assert dominance rather than play catch up later on. Or even retire.
The biggest thing is that if these big name do make the switch, how big is the korean scene about to get? Will it just be gom, will kespa come over? (don't know there contracts with blizzard for SC2 so we'll see).
I say the more skill the better for the scene as a whole, but this maybe widen the korean skill gap significantly.
can i just say while bw skills are to some extent portable to sc2, its rather fallacious to assume that because some players were better/worse than say MVP or forgg at BW that they would have the same level of ability/success in sc2. alot of other factors come into play.
im really looking forward to it, hope they dont take too much time until they come to gsl, i mean forGG cant win every gsl until they officially start^^
On January 09 2012 15:56 deadmau wrote: I'm a tad confused with Milkis' League of Legends comment. What does LoL have to do with Korean e-sports? Would it give it a boost or something?
I think what he meant is that LoL is becoming the go to game in Korea.
people actually going to watch that on t.v or turn up to a live audience to view that piece of shit? If that ever becomes the case esports in general should be written off. Nada lost me as a fan long time ago when he made that retarded LOL commercial.
Be respectful to the LoL community. League of Legends is gonna grow, give it time. Also, we haven't seen the best RTS players switch over yet, maybe the game will be better yet. We'll have to wait and see.
On January 09 2012 15:56 deadmau wrote: I'm a tad confused with Milkis' League of Legends comment. What does LoL have to do with Korean e-sports? Would it give it a boost or something?
I think what he meant is that LoL is becoming the go to game in Korea.
people actually going to watch that on t.v or turn up to a live audience to view that piece of shit? If that ever becomes the case esports in general should be written off. Nada lost me as a fan long time ago when he made that retarded LOL commercial.
Be respectful to the LoL community. League of Legends is gonna grow, give it time. Also, we haven't seen the best RTS players switch over yet, maybe the game will be better yet. We'll have to wait and see.
there is no wait and seeing with that game. Its fun and all, but i do not want to watch it. This is not meant to bash LOL but some games just arent for esports. Such as World of Warcraft. If anything dota 2 should be way higher, and even then i still would never ever choose it over viewing starcraft 2.
They have been playing sc2 for approximately 5 months so far, and from what I am told, they only play sc2 now during practice time.
If this is true, then the players switching aren't players really worth getting too excited for. There's been no noticeable decline in play among BW players (except Sea ... ) and you obviously can't remain as a top BW player if you're only practicing SC2. The most logical assumption would be the A-teamers from Hwaseung/MBC/Wemade who didn't get picked up like Anytime, Lomo, Pure, etc. I mean, FXOBoss wouldn't be incorrect to call these guys consistent A-teamers but they don't represent a significant difference in skill level compared to the likes of Mvp, fOrGG or Hyun.
I am intrigued by the whole 40 days thing. It's pretty strange that they would all switch at the same time. I would assume this means Kespa will be setting up their own league and maybe even their own teams to serve as a competitior to GOM.
Pure is doing military service. He and Kal applied for ACE at the same time and they picked Kal [Why they didn't draft Pure as well is beyond me - he's better than half their roster].
On January 09 2012 15:56 deadmau wrote: I'm a tad confused with Milkis' League of Legends comment. What does LoL have to do with Korean e-sports? Would it give it a boost or something?
I think what he meant is that LoL is becoming the go to game in Korea.
people actually going to watch that on t.v or turn up to a live audience to view that piece of shit? If that ever becomes the case esports in general should be written off. Nada lost me as a fan long time ago when he made that retarded LOL commercial.
Be respectful to the LoL community. League of Legends is gonna grow, give it time. Also, we haven't seen the best RTS players switch over yet, maybe the game will be better yet. We'll have to wait and see.
there is no wait and seeing with that game. Its fun and all, but i do not want to watch it. This is not meant to bash LOL but some games just arent for esports. Such as World of Warcraft. If anything dota 2 should be way higher, and even then i still would never ever choose it over viewing starcraft 2.
You are just stating opinion here, and those exact same things have been said about SC2 over and over again. You've been here for a year. You should know better.
On January 09 2012 15:56 deadmau wrote: I'm a tad confused with Milkis' League of Legends comment. What does LoL have to do with Korean e-sports? Would it give it a boost or something?
I think what he meant is that LoL is becoming the go to game in Korea.
people actually going to watch that on t.v or turn up to a live audience to view that piece of shit? If that ever becomes the case esports in general should be written off. Nada lost me as a fan long time ago when he made that retarded LOL commercial.
Be respectful to the LoL community. League of Legends is gonna grow, give it time. Also, we haven't seen the best RTS players switch over yet, maybe the game will be better yet. We'll have to wait and see.
there is no wait and seeing with that game. Its fun and all, but i do not want to watch it. This is not meant to bash LOL but some games just arent for esports. Such as World of Warcraft. If anything dota 2 should be way higher, and even then i still would never ever choose it over viewing starcraft 2.
How is calling something a piece of shit and retarded not bashing it? Its a legitimate esport, it gets tons of views and is played by a ton of people.
On January 09 2012 15:56 deadmau wrote: I'm a tad confused with Milkis' League of Legends comment. What does LoL have to do with Korean e-sports? Would it give it a boost or something?
I think what he meant is that LoL is becoming the go to game in Korea.
people actually going to watch that on t.v or turn up to a live audience to view that piece of shit? If that ever becomes the case esports in general should be written off. Nada lost me as a fan long time ago when he made that retarded LOL commercial.
People will watch cause thats what they play. Obviously you're gonna have die hard fans who will watch a game they don't play but most are going to tune into what they find interesting.
I feel SC2's player base is shrinking but the viewer numbers are still pretty strong. I also feel (especially in the foreign scene) that people continue to watch because they feel some sort of an attachement to their favorite players. Probably because they are from the same continent, country, city.. whatever ( I always cheer for foreign players)
Am I the only one who is worried about what this could do to the foreign scene? Speaking for myself here if what people say is true and these BW players who may come over will totally dominate the game to a point where foreign players can no longer compete (as in have no chance at all) I will lose interest in the game and won't tune in anymore.
On January 09 2012 15:56 deadmau wrote: I'm a tad confused with Milkis' League of Legends comment. What does LoL have to do with Korean e-sports? Would it give it a boost or something?
I think what he meant is that LoL is becoming the go to game in Korea.
people actually going to watch that on t.v or turn up to a live audience to view that piece of shit? If that ever becomes the case esports in general should be written off. Nada lost me as a fan long time ago when he made that retarded LOL commercial.
People will watch cause thats what they play. Obviously you're gonna have die hard fans who will watch a game they don't play but most are going to tune into what they find interesting.
I feel SC2's player base is shrinking but the viewer numbers are still pretty strong. I also feel (especially in the foreign scene) that people continue to watch because they feel some sort of an attachement to their favorite players. Probably because they are from the same continent, country, city.. whatever ( I always cheer for foreign players)
Am I the only one who is worried about what this could do to the foreign scene? Speaking for myself here if what people say is true and these BW players who may come over will totally dominate the game to a point where foreign players can no longer compete (as in have no chance at all) I will lose interest in the game and won't tune in anymore.
Does anyone else feel this way?
If it happens that way it's no ones fault but the foreign players for not being as good.
On January 09 2012 15:56 deadmau wrote: I'm a tad confused with Milkis' League of Legends comment. What does LoL have to do with Korean e-sports? Would it give it a boost or something?
I think what he meant is that LoL is becoming the go to game in Korea.
people actually going to watch that on t.v or turn up to a live audience to view that piece of shit? If that ever becomes the case esports in general should be written off. Nada lost me as a fan long time ago when he made that retarded LOL commercial.
People will watch cause thats what they play. Obviously you're gonna have die hard fans who will watch a game they don't play but most are going to tune into what they find interesting.
I feel SC2's player base is shrinking but the viewer numbers are still pretty strong. I also feel (especially in the foreign scene) that people continue to watch because they feel some sort of an attachement to their favorite players. Probably because they are from the same continent, country, city.. whatever ( I always cheer for foreign players)
Am I the only one who is worried about what this could do to the foreign scene? Speaking for myself here if what people say is true and these BW players who may come over will totally dominate the game to a point where foreign players can no longer compete (as in have no chance at all) I will lose interest in the game and won't tune in anymore.
Does anyone else feel this way?
I think it will be more or less the same on the foreign scene. It is not like every single korean flies overseas to compete in these tournaments. The korean scene will definitely be even more competitive (as if it wasnt already) though.
On January 09 2012 15:56 deadmau wrote: I'm a tad confused with Milkis' League of Legends comment. What does LoL have to do with Korean e-sports? Would it give it a boost or something?
I think what he meant is that LoL is becoming the go to game in Korea.
people actually going to watch that on t.v or turn up to a live audience to view that piece of shit? If that ever becomes the case esports in general should be written off. Nada lost me as a fan long time ago when he made that retarded LOL commercial.
People will watch cause thats what they play. Obviously you're gonna have die hard fans who will watch a game they don't play but most are going to tune into what they find interesting.
I feel SC2's player base is shrinking but the viewer numbers are still pretty strong. I also feel (especially in the foreign scene) that people continue to watch because they feel some sort of an attachement to their favorite players. Probably because they are from the same continent, country, city.. whatever ( I always cheer for foreign players)
Am I the only one who is worried about what this could do to the foreign scene? Speaking for myself here if what people say is true and these BW players who may come over will totally dominate the game to a point where foreign players can no longer compete (as in have no chance at all) I will lose interest in the game and won't tune in anymore.
Does anyone else feel this way?
I agree lol I think similar situation happened for BW Koreans dominating hardcore = No to very little foreigner scene
On January 09 2012 15:56 deadmau wrote: I'm a tad confused with Milkis' League of Legends comment. What does LoL have to do with Korean e-sports? Would it give it a boost or something?
I think what he meant is that LoL is becoming the go to game in Korea.
people actually going to watch that on t.v or turn up to a live audience to view that piece of shit? If that ever becomes the case esports in general should be written off. Nada lost me as a fan long time ago when he made that retarded LOL commercial.
People will watch cause thats what they play. Obviously you're gonna have die hard fans who will watch a game they don't play but most are going to tune into what they find interesting.
I feel SC2's player base is shrinking but the viewer numbers are still pretty strong. I also feel (especially in the foreign scene) that people continue to watch because they feel some sort of an attachement to their favorite players. Probably because they are from the same continent, country, city.. whatever ( I always cheer for foreign players)
Am I the only one who is worried about what this could do to the foreign scene? Speaking for myself here if what people say is true and these BW players who may come over will totally dominate the game to a point where foreign players can no longer compete (as in have no chance at all) I will lose interest in the game and won't tune in anymore.
On January 09 2012 16:47 Megaliskuu wrote: SC2 cant be dominated because there is a lot more "silly" shit that can happen, in addition the dumbed down mechanics.
Terrible news either way.
Yeah that totally explains why there are several extremely dominant sc2 players at the moment.
On January 09 2012 15:56 deadmau wrote: I'm a tad confused with Milkis' League of Legends comment. What does LoL have to do with Korean e-sports? Would it give it a boost or something?
I think what he meant is that LoL is becoming the go to game in Korea.
people actually going to watch that on t.v or turn up to a live audience to view that piece of shit? If that ever becomes the case esports in general should be written off. Nada lost me as a fan long time ago when he made that retarded LOL commercial.
People will watch cause thats what they play. Obviously you're gonna have die hard fans who will watch a game they don't play but most are going to tune into what they find interesting.
I feel SC2's player base is shrinking but the viewer numbers are still pretty strong. I also feel (especially in the foreign scene) that people continue to watch because they feel some sort of an attachement to their favorite players. Probably because they are from the same continent, country, city.. whatever ( I always cheer for foreign players)
Am I the only one who is worried about what this could do to the foreign scene? Speaking for myself here if what people say is true and these BW players who may come over will totally dominate the game to a point where foreign players can no longer compete (as in have no chance at all) I will lose interest in the game and won't tune in anymore.
Does anyone else feel this way?
Don't most people watch Korean pros anyway since they offer much higher level games? Foreigners playing against foreigners are probably incapable of executing something like . . . Leenock vs Jjakji game 1.
I have followed teamliquid discussions for some time by now, and decided to make now an account so I can contribute community discussions with my own perceptions of topicks.
People here are talking something like "so... nada and boxer were so allmighty bonjwas of brood war so how come they are not dominating sc2? this proves that bw experience means nothing in sc2"
That kind of argument does not work because Nada and Boxer were bad players. Dont get me wrong here, they were RELATIVELY VERY GOOD players like decade ago. But they still were bad, just like old top tier airliners or oceanliners of their time were pretty bad technology when we look at them now. All this means just, that it is not about Nada or Boxer being in "decline" regarding their skill (atleast there is no real evidence to support this theory), it has more to do with the fact that simply better players entered in the scene, just like better oceanliners or airplanes are developed which eventually causes older technology to be left out of business.
Current top tier brood war players are so good at BW which indicates strong understanding of RTS philosophy of starcraft-like games and they posses so high skill sets of this particular area. This is the reason, why CURRENT top tier BW-players are likely going to dominate the SC2-scene in following months after their switching to this new game.
there's a very good chance that these bw pros will dominate. the skill ceiling hasnt even been reached yet in sc2. just watch the top players like mvp...he has like too many units queued up and floating too much money at times.
i don't really follow the bw scene too closely, but i definitely think it will be sad if pro league just suddenly dissolves to make way for a transition to sc2. i follow sc2 very closely and while it's great seeing former bw pros try to make their mark in sc2, i hope bw does not all of a sudden die off
It doesn't matter that much who is switching and who's not. The more interesting aspect is what will happen to the industry. GSL can't always be the only host. As soon as the korean scene gets more competitive, profesional, high level teams, there needs to be a second broadcaster. Enough go around for the sponsors for their players to advertise them.
It will change. And the country with the best playing environment will dominate. That's a given...
OSL OSL OSL :p ? not happening for now, i cant believe some players will just say "im going for sc2" instead of even trying to get into OSL, maybe the ones who didnt qualify will switch to sc2, but OSL for BW progamers is like Olympics for athletes, something you dont wanna miss.
On January 09 2012 16:57 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have followed teamliquid discussions for some time by now, and decided to make now an account so I can contribute community discussions with my own perceptions of topicks.
People here are talking something like "so... nada and boxer were so allmighty bonjwas of brood war so how come they are not dominating sc2? this proves that bw experience means nothing in sc2"
That kind of argument does not work because Nada and Boxer were bad players. Dont get me wrong here, they were RELATIVELY VERY GOOD players like decade ago. But they still were bad, just like old top tier airliners or oceanliners of their time were pretty bad technology when we look at them now. All this means just, that it is not about Nada or Boxer being in "decline" regarding their skill (atleast there is no real evidence to support this theory), it has more to do with the fact that simply better players entered in the scene, just like better oceanliners or airplanes are developed which eventually causes older technology to be left out of business.
Current top tier brood war players are so good at BW which indicates strong understanding of RTS philosophy of starcraft-like games and they posses so high skill sets of this particular area. This is the reason, why CURRENT top tier BW-players are likely going to dominate the SC2-scene in following months after their switching to this new game.
Didnt Nada hold the record for the most OSL/MSL wins for one player? Now tied with Flash iirc? And Jaedong is one behind.
On topic unless I see the bigger names in BW switching I cant say its overly interesting either. The big players probably wont switch until they cant make as much in BW. Though so have mentioned switching in the future.
Would also love to see Fantasy v Idra.. game of awesome GG timings >_>
I expect Fantasy to be the first huge name from the top of the current BW scene. Not sure if he's among the speculated here, because afiak he's been interested in SC2 for more than 5 months. (he even mentioned it in some group ceremony)
On January 09 2012 16:57 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have followed teamliquid discussions for some time by now, and decided to make now an account so I can contribute community discussions with my own perceptions of topicks.
People here are talking something like "so... nada and boxer were so allmighty bonjwas of brood war so how come they are not dominating sc2? this proves that bw experience means nothing in sc2"
That kind of argument does not work because Nada and Boxer were bad players. Dont get me wrong here, they were RELATIVELY VERY GOOD players like decade ago. But they still were bad, just like old top tier airliners or oceanliners of their time were pretty bad technology when we look at them now. All this means just, that it is not about Nada or Boxer being in "decline" regarding their skill (atleast there is no real evidence to support this theory), it has more to do with the fact that simply better players entered in the scene, just like better oceanliners or airplanes are developed which eventually causes older technology to be left out of business.
Current top tier brood war players are so good at BW which indicates strong understanding of RTS philosophy of starcraft-like games and they posses so high skill sets of this particular area. This is the reason, why CURRENT top tier BW-players are likely going to dominate the SC2-scene in following months after their switching to this new game.
Didnt Nada hold the record for the most OSL/MSL wins for one player? Now tied with Flash iirc? And Jaedong is one behind.
On topic unless I see the bigger names in BW switching I cant say its overly interesting either. The big players probably wont switch until they cant make as much in BW. Though so have mentioned switching in the future.
Would also love to see Fantasy v Idra.. game of awesome GG timings >_>
Take a look at when July, Boxer, and Nada won their titles. BW has advanced so much since then and none of those three have been able to keep up with the level of play.
By 2010, all three of them were terrible and rarely, if ever, played in proleague.
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
back in the early part of the decade when e-sports was starting to grow big in korea, you'd see the iconic fan girls showing up to games. why? it's not because they actually cared about the game. it's because most the progamers were good looking and were young. traits that appeal to girls in the teenage/young adult category.
remember, back then there was no super junior, no shinee, no beast for fangirls to 'go girly over'.
now given the large boom in the korean music industry over the past five years or so, progaming (in korea at least) has lost one of its strongest draw points for new viewers.
luckily for the industry, boxer was good looking, extremely skilled, had an awesome personality and arrived at the perfect time.
if the details in boss' post are correct then i doubt the bw pros switching over are ones that have played a proleague match this season. no bw team would seed any A teamer out in proleague that hasnt been practicing sc1 for the last couple months. so the people he is talking about are probably some a-teamers for the 3 bw teams that recently disbanded: FOX, OZ, MBC. so maybe Pure, Saint, RuBy, Pusan, major, HiyA, PerfectMan?
All hope is not lost though. Basicly everything is possible according to quantum theory, so things could be different in sc2 than what they were in brood war.
On January 09 2012 17:31 lFrost wrote: if the details in boss' post are correct then i doubt the bw pros switching over are ones that have played a proleague match this season. no bw team would seed any A teamer out in proleague that hasnt been practicing sc1 for the last couple months. so the people he is talking about are probably some a-teamers for the 3 bw teams that recently disbanded: FOX, OZ, MBC. so maybe Pure, Saint, RuBy, Pusan, major, HiyA, PerfectMan?
all those players are retired from progaming
more likely are reach, flying, guemchi, hyuk, shine, paralyze, or trap
Finally, its lomos time to shine! It's like the game was fucking made for him, micro your heart out don't worry about macro? If he's not bonwja within a months time of his debut I'll eat something typically regarded as inedible
On January 09 2012 17:41 n.DieJokes wrote: Finally, its lomos time to shine! It's like the game was fucking made for him, micro your heart out don't worry about macro? If he's not bonwja within a months time of his debut I'll eat something typically regarded as inedible
On January 09 2012 17:41 n.DieJokes wrote: Finally, its lomos time to shine! It's like the game was fucking made for him, micro your heart out don't worry about macro? If he's not bonwja within a months time of his debut I'll eat something typically regarded as inedible
On January 09 2012 17:41 n.DieJokes wrote: Finally, its lomos time to shine! It's like the game was fucking made for him, micro your heart out don't worry about macro? If he's not bonwja within a months time of his debut I'll eat something typically regarded as inedible
he bacame a policeman afaik
Oh yeah... damn :[
ye its sad everyone inside is a little homo for lomo :D
On January 09 2012 17:31 lFrost wrote: if the details in boss' post are correct then i doubt the bw pros switching over are ones that have played a proleague match this season. no bw team would seed any A teamer out in proleague that hasnt been practicing sc1 for the last couple months. so the people he is talking about are probably some a-teamers for the 3 bw teams that recently disbanded: FOX, OZ, MBC. so maybe Pure, Saint, RuBy, Pusan, major, HiyA, PerfectMan?
all those players are retired from progaming
more likely are reach, flying, guemchi, hyuk, shine, paralyze, or trap
they were forced to retire from bw since they were not drafted into any team. did they say they wouldnt switch to sc2 or something? afaik only midas really stated that. out of the people you listed hyuk seems unlikely considering he just played a proleague match a few days ago. also not sure why samsung would pick up shine recently if he were to only play sc2
On January 09 2012 17:36 simmeh wrote: just wondering, were there any notable switched over bw pros in past week's code a qualifiers? (i didnt follow bw)
HyuN. Joined TSL about a month ago and qualified for code A on his first try. He wasn't particularly popular amongst foreign BW fans so there wasn't as much fuss over him as there was for fOrGG.
On January 09 2012 17:31 lFrost wrote: if the details in boss' post are correct then i doubt the bw pros switching over are ones that have played a proleague match this season. no bw team would seed any A teamer out in proleague that hasnt been practicing sc1 for the last couple months. so the people he is talking about are probably some a-teamers for the 3 bw teams that recently disbanded: FOX, OZ, MBC. so maybe Pure, Saint, RuBy, Pusan, major, HiyA, PerfectMan?
all those players are retired from progaming
more likely are reach, flying, guemchi, hyuk, shine, paralyze, or trap
they were forced to retire from bw since they were not drafted into any team. did they say they wouldnt switch to sc2 or something? afaik only midas really stated that. out of the people you listed hyuk seems unlikely considering he just played a proleague match a few days ago. also not sure why samsung would pick up shine recently if he were to only play sc2
oh wut totally missed that hyuk played games, felt like years since i've seen him sent out.
pure and pusan applied for ace, so if they're doing mandatory army then they can't play anyways. hiya said straight out he's done with progaming, same with ruby. i thought saint retired permanently earlier but i think i mixed him up with shark. i guess it's possible PFM will play sc2.
also if second season of SPL ends up being sc2 instead of broodwar then it wouldn't be weird at all for samsung to buy out shine and have him play sc2.
On January 09 2012 18:03 pPingu wrote: Playing for 5 months?
I don't think they would still be playing in team leagues if they were playing for so long and I didn't notice any top a teamer missing.
thats what bothering me, to stay relevent and keep your mechanics up to date it requires to train hours just to keep it intact so i cant really see how they could be able to switch beetwen 2 different games and just go with it
maybe players who are really inactive like shine etc, maybe their practice time is something like 50-50 sc2/bw and their only train bw when they have to snipe someone once in 2 weeks or something dunno seems weird to me or the title is wrong and we are talking about retirees who are not playing bw at all now.
On January 09 2012 16:57 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have followed teamliquid discussions for some time by now, and decided to make now an account so I can contribute community discussions with my own perceptions of topicks.
People here are talking something like "so... nada and boxer were so allmighty bonjwas of brood war so how come they are not dominating sc2? this proves that bw experience means nothing in sc2"
That kind of argument does not work because Nada and Boxer were bad players. Dont get me wrong here, they were RELATIVELY VERY GOOD players like decade ago. But they still were bad, just like old top tier airliners or oceanliners of their time were pretty bad technology when we look at them now. All this means just, that it is not about Nada or Boxer being in "decline" regarding their skill (atleast there is no real evidence to support this theory), it has more to do with the fact that simply better players entered in the scene, just like better oceanliners or airplanes are developed which eventually causes older technology to be left out of business.
Current top tier brood war players are so good at BW which indicates strong understanding of RTS philosophy of starcraft-like games and they posses so high skill sets of this particular area. This is the reason, why CURRENT top tier BW-players are likely going to dominate the SC2-scene in following months after their switching to this new game.
Didnt Nada hold the record for the most OSL/MSL wins for one player? Now tied with Flash iirc? And Jaedong is one behind.
On topic unless I see the bigger names in BW switching I cant say its overly interesting either. The big players probably wont switch until they cant make as much in BW. Though so have mentioned switching in the future.
Would also love to see Fantasy v Idra.. game of awesome GG timings >_>
Take a look at when July, Boxer, and Nada won their titles. BW has advanced so much since then and none of those three have been able to keep up with the level of play.
By 2010, all three of them were terrible and rarely, if ever, played in proleague.
nada still had that incredible series against jangbi in the lost saga msl
im sad. bw is a great game. but sc2 can be great too (two more expos coming out), so my hopes are up.
BW stood the test of esport time BECAUSE it was such a demanding edit:game and was capable of jaw dropping play. SC2 needs this element or it WILL be just another game that will be replaced. I sincerely hope Blizz makes magic with Into the Void and HotS.
On January 09 2012 18:03 pPingu wrote: Playing for 5 months?
I don't think they would still be playing in team leagues if they were playing for so long and I didn't notice any top a teamer missing.
thats what bothering me, to stay relevent and keep your mechanics up to date it requires to train hours just to keep it intact so i cant really see how they could be able to switch beetwen 2 different games and just go with it
maybe players who are really inactive like shine etc, maybe their practice time is something like 50-50 sc2/bw and their only train bw when they have to snipe someone once in 2 weeks or something dunno seems weird to me or the title is wrong and we are talking about retirees who are not playing bw at all now.
From Boss' post, it sounds like they've played sc2 casually for 5 months, and have just now begun to play it exclusively, so we might not see the results of that yet. Start looking for top level players who disappear in the next 40 days.
On January 09 2012 17:31 lFrost wrote: if the details in boss' post are correct then i doubt the bw pros switching over are ones that have played a proleague match this season. no bw team would seed any A teamer out in proleague that hasnt been practicing sc1 for the last couple months. so the people he is talking about are probably some a-teamers for the 3 bw teams that recently disbanded: FOX, OZ, MBC. so maybe Pure, Saint, RuBy, Pusan, major, HiyA, PerfectMan?
i would say likely, minus the obviously retired ones.
real A teamers like fantasy, stats, leta, reality, zero very unlikely
On January 09 2012 18:03 pPingu wrote: Playing for 5 months?
I don't think they would still be playing in team leagues if they were playing for so long and I didn't notice any top a teamer missing.
thats what bothering me, to stay relevent and keep your mechanics up to date it requires to train hours just to keep it intact so i cant really see how they could be able to switch beetwen 2 different games and just go with it
maybe players who are really inactive like shine etc, maybe their practice time is something like 50-50 sc2/bw and their only train bw when they have to snipe someone once in 2 weeks or something dunno seems weird to me or the title is wrong and we are talking about retirees who are not playing bw at all now.
From Boss' post, it sounds like they've played sc2 casually for 5 months, and have just now begun to play it exclusively, so we might not see the results of that yet. Start looking for top level players who disappear in the next 40 days.
That's going to be painful to watch. have a feeling most of the ''switch'' is going to come from team 8 ( hoping to god it's not)
On January 09 2012 17:31 lFrost wrote: if the details in boss' post are correct then i doubt the bw pros switching over are ones that have played a proleague match this season. no bw team would seed any A teamer out in proleague that hasnt been practicing sc1 for the last couple months. so the people he is talking about are probably some a-teamers for the 3 bw teams that recently disbanded: FOX, OZ, MBC. so maybe Pure, Saint, RuBy, Pusan, major, HiyA, PerfectMan?
i would say likely, minus the obviously retired ones.
real A teamers like fantasy, stats, leta, reality, zero very unlikely
Yea I can't see pro's of that level switching over, however I did hear that Leta may have been playing according to wolf.
I just can't wait for this to happen. It will be a seismic shift in the scene and a moment in ESPORTS history that I feel privileged to be able to experience as it happens.
People need to understand that there is no reason Kespa players would start playing in GOM run leagues, I mean fuck they arent even on TV and it seems as though GOM is basically living off of foreign subscriptions (and treating us the worst, go figure). That isn't what these big sponsors in Kespa pay for, if they move over I assume they'll have their own league running alongside their proleague / OSL shows.
On January 09 2012 17:31 lFrost wrote: if the details in boss' post are correct then i doubt the bw pros switching over are ones that have played a proleague match this season. no bw team would seed any A teamer out in proleague that hasnt been practicing sc1 for the last couple months. so the people he is talking about are probably some a-teamers for the 3 bw teams that recently disbanded: FOX, OZ, MBC. so maybe Pure, Saint, RuBy, Pusan, major, HiyA, PerfectMan?
i would say likely, minus the obviously retired ones.
real A teamers like fantasy, stats, leta, reality, zero very unlikely
Yea I can't see pro's of that level switching over, however I did hear that Leta may have been playing according to wolf.
Didn't really sound much like practicing from his tweets. More like just trying to play a few games for fun
well being an a teamer in bw is no guarantee to success in sc2. We saw active b teamers become pretty damn good in sc2 and we saw some pretty much disappear. Same will happen to a teamers, though their chances are better as their payment motivates them more. So i don't really see the hype. Especially training for 5 month and no one really noticed them on ladder ? If they only custom against themself it will be pretty funny, when two worlds face each other with completly different strategies. (that would actually interest me) well lets wait those 2 month then, wonder if that happens who will manage to survive being code B and code A for some time, after being used to be an a teamer for so long.
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
No damnit. Don't go pulling this "Only Korean BW is E-Sports" shit again. E-Sports is fine, Korean BW is dying, there is a very distinct difference.
KeSPA is not E-Sports. The millions and millions of dollars and millions of viewers for other games besides BW all over the world is light years ahead of a system where they control.
anyway i'm obviously referring to korean esports which is bw/sc2. korean esports is doomed unless LoL picks up to be the new hot thing which is strongly heading towards that direction (so i guess it's not too doomed)
So we are going from BW > SC2 > LoL…. Great development of eSports indeed. Are there any former SC2 players playing LoL? (just curious).
SC2 needs a good talent that hasn't been good at Broodwar. If the SC2 scene heavily rely on ex-BW pros for the best games, then you won't be seeing it's full potential and it won't be as good as BW when it comes to it's legacy. SC2 will fall at the first sight of another shiny game.
On January 09 2012 15:17 Milkis wrote: i haven't paid enough attention to the scene for a while so I don't really know what FXOBoss is referring to completely. I don't even know if this upcoming event is even "big" as I'm going to make it seem. I'm pretty sure FXOBoss is referring to something else completely different.
Just note that what I'm about to just say something general about the Korean BW/SC2 scene, and how I see it going right now and the direction it'll take in the near future.
If you paid attention to what's been released, it's pretty damn obvious kespa has been trying to run sc2 for a long time now, despite what other people think. Fomos and DES published plenty of shit regarding industry insiders commenting on things like this, and just pay attention to the IP Rights debate, from the beginning to the conclusion. The fight was an implicit one over SC2 and in the end Kespa has said that they want to be able to help blizzard promote HotS.
if people haven't realized by now bw has been on a decline for a few years now. Proleague ratings, OGN/MBC Game ratings, etc. They are literally 1/3rd of what they were in 2007. It's freaking obvious why MBC Game got canned in the long run. They're a gaming channel and the only thing that generated halfway decent ratings was proleague and everything else people barely watched.
at the same time from what i can tell kespa is pretty convinced that most of the fans in esports are fans of the teams and the players and thus a good portion of these people will follow the players and the teams into sc2 if there was such a switch. considering bw is dying and it's getting harder and harder to get sponsors (don't take what they say in the press at face value, btw), it's logical that they are probably going to do sc2 soon.
why do you think PL has two "distinct" seasons with two distinct finals? this isn't a coincidence. its not something they would want to announce either since it'd take away from the current BW scene. do you think fomos picking up sc2 randomly again is a coincidence? or DES completely flipping their stance on BW? or all those teaser articles? korean bw/sc2 coverage is very very well controlled. realize that. they use it to gauge reactions. they "tease" about events that'll happen. notice that all of those are probably in there for a VERY good reason.
wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year.
also to anyone who says "BW is on life support" -- esports as a whole is on life support. Why do you think blizzard dropped the stance on trying to extort money from the scene in korea? They finally discovered that no one in korean esports (except maybe OGN/MBC Game but that's arguable) makes any sort of money and that kespa literally lives off sponsors.
The entire scene has been a freaking fragile one since the entire IP rights debacle. If IP rights debacle never happened and blizzard fully supported KeSPA (then again, this may not have happened since people in KeSPA are kind of obtuse to a certain extent -_-) everyone would have swapped to SC2 and we'd be seeing a lot higher level play. imagine everyone is on MVP/MMA's level, and then there's like a few people who are one level on top of that. its kind of funny how bw people talk down players like mvp mma and say that they weren't good BW players -- MMA was only pro for a year and only retired due to personal reasons but he had a ton of potential and mvp would probably be a solid terran on the level of Bogus right now. Just imagine if everyone was as good as or at least as good as them with a few people a few notches higher and that's what you should be expecting once all of them fully transitioned.
that's my 2 cents. i highly recommend people to read korean news sources with a bit higher degree of scrutiny because again they're all very well controlled.
No damnit. Don't go pulling this "Only Korean BW is E-Sports" shit again. E-Sports is fine, Korean BW is dying, there is a very distinct difference.
KeSPA is not E-Sports. The millions and millions of dollars and millions of viewers for other games besides BW all over the world is light years ahead of a system where they control.
anyway i'm obviously referring to korean esports which is bw/sc2. korean esports is doomed unless LoL picks up to be the new hot thing which is strongly heading towards that direction (so i guess it's not too doomed)
So we are going from BW > SC2 > LoL…. Great development of eSports indeed. Are there any former SC2 players playing LoL? (just curious).
lol ..... There are already 'former' SC2 players? That's just sad.
LOL @ ppl thinking that ex-A teamers (A TEAMERS!!!) won't totally dominate the SC2 scene. And no, current A-teamers won't switch, proleague is too competitive right now.
On January 09 2012 19:57 bmml wrote: People need to understand that there is no reason Kespa players would start playing in GOM run leagues, I mean fuck they arent even on TV and it seems as though GOM is basically living off of foreign subscriptions (and treating us the worst, go figure). That isn't what these big sponsors in Kespa pay for, if they move over I assume they'll have their own league running alongside their proleague / OSL shows.
Kespa players have licenses for being starcraft 1 progamers for kespa (which is the sickest pain in the ass for blizz btw since they don't get any money from kespA), if they'd switch they would no longer be kespa players, you know like every bw pro that has switched thus far has no longer any buisness with kespa. GOM is a tv channel in korea, you know gomtv, go to gomtv.com and check out the korean site which features a lot more than just the gsl. The only thing about the gsl that lifes of foreigner subscriptions is the foreigner production, and the current stream quality is the quality it is because thats how much the current subscription are able to pay for. GOM has exclusive sc2 rights for I think atleast this year, or maybe just half of it. And even though blizz invited some bw pros to blizzcon to show them how big sc2 is in the foreign scene atm, all the shit that happened between kespa and blizz kinda makes me believe that if kespa will ever host sc2 competitions, it will atleast be in a corporation between kespa, gom and blizzard.
On January 09 2012 19:57 bmml wrote: People need to understand that there is no reason Kespa players would start playing in GOM run leagues, I mean fuck they arent even on TV and it seems as though GOM is basically living off of foreign subscriptions (and treating us the worst, go figure). That isn't what these big sponsors in Kespa pay for, if they move over I assume they'll have their own league running alongside their proleague / OSL shows.
Kespa players have licenses for being starcraft 1 progamers for kespa (which is the sickest pain in the ass for blizz btw since they don't get any money from kespA), if they'd switch they would no longer be kespa players, you know like every bw pro that has switched thus far has no longer any buisness with kespa. GOM is a tv channel in korea, you know gomtv, go to gomtv.com and check out the korean site which features a lot more than just the gsl. The only thing about the gsl that lifes of foreigner subscriptions is the foreigner production, and the current stream quality is the quality it is because thats how much the current subscription are able to pay for. GOM has exclusive sc2 rights for I think atleast this year, or maybe just half of it. And even though blizz invited some bw pros to blizzcon to show them how big sc2 is in the foreign scene atm, all the shit that happened between kespa and blizz kinda makes me believe that if kespa will ever host sc2 competitions, it will atleast be in a corporation between kespa, gom and blizzard.
Gom is not a tv channel at all its an internet streaming service.
Since it's FXOBoss who wrote it, it's probably real. But I don't think it'll be a mass exodus like people are expecting. At least nothing that would hit the BW scene hard.
On January 09 2012 20:50 RelZo wrote: LOL @ ppl thinking that ex-A teamers (A TEAMERS!!!) won't totally dominate the SC2 scene. And no, current A-teamers won't switch, proleague is too competitive right now.
It is not quaranteed succes if you were a-teamer in brood war, it just means that you have higher chance of succes than lets say b-teamers
There is many b-teamers who kinda dominate the scene and many b-teamers who fail at the competition. There is just too much variance. This is why bw-succes does not automatically grant you great succes at sc2, it just means that probably it is somewhat higher probability.
On January 09 2012 20:50 RelZo wrote: LOL @ ppl thinking that ex-A teamers (A TEAMERS!!!) won't totally dominate the SC2 scene. And no, current A-teamers won't switch, proleague is too competitive right now.
It is not quaranteed succes if you were a-teamer in brood war, it just means that you have higher chance of succes than lets say b-teamers
There is many b-teamers who kinda dominate the scene and many b-teamers who fail at the competition. There is just too much variance. This is why bw-succes does not automatically grant you great succes at sc2, it just means that probably it is somewhat higher probability.
On January 09 2012 20:50 RelZo wrote: LOL @ ppl thinking that ex-A teamers (A TEAMERS!!!) won't totally dominate the SC2 scene. And no, current A-teamers won't switch, proleague is too competitive right now.
It is not quaranteed succes if you were a-teamer in brood war, it just means that you have higher chance of succes than lets say b-teamers
There is many b-teamers who kinda dominate the scene and many b-teamers who fail at the competition. There is just too much variance. This is why bw-succes does not automatically grant you great succes at sc2, it just means that probably it is somewhat higher probability.
Many B-teamers fail at competition, not a-timers.
what is the evidence you are basing this statement to? and how many ex-a-teamers there is in sc2 scene?
On January 09 2012 19:57 bmml wrote: People need to understand that there is no reason Kespa players would start playing in GOM run leagues, I mean fuck they arent even on TV and it seems as though GOM is basically living off of foreign subscriptions (and treating us the worst, go figure). That isn't what these big sponsors in Kespa pay for, if they move over I assume they'll have their own league running alongside their proleague / OSL shows.
Kespa players have licenses for being starcraft 1 progamers for kespa (which is the sickest pain in the ass for blizz btw since they don't get any money from kespA), if they'd switch they would no longer be kespa players, you know like every bw pro that has switched thus far has no longer any buisness with kespa. GOM is a tv channel in korea, you know gomtv, go to gomtv.com and check out the korean site which features a lot more than just the gsl. The only thing about the gsl that lifes of foreigner subscriptions is the foreigner production, and the current stream quality is the quality it is because thats how much the current subscription are able to pay for. GOM has exclusive sc2 rights for I think atleast this year, or maybe just half of it. And even though blizz invited some bw pros to blizzcon to show them how big sc2 is in the foreign scene atm, all the shit that happened between kespa and blizz kinda makes me believe that if kespa will ever host sc2 competitions, it will atleast be in a corporation between kespa, gom and blizzard.
Kespa is an organisation built up of the various powerful entities in pro broodwar, CJ, KT, SKT etc etc they are the teams - they own the players. a BW pro wouldn't drop a dedicated income and such a solidified and glamorous position in a REAL proteam sponsored by the biggest corporations in their country on a whim. What you don't seem to understand is that Kespa = teams = players, if they didn't want to be kespa players they wouldn't be in a BW proteam. GOMtv is an online streaming service for music/video/games, it is NOT a TV station just like say Vice isn't a TV station.
On January 09 2012 20:50 RelZo wrote: LOL @ ppl thinking that ex-A teamers (A TEAMERS!!!) won't totally dominate the SC2 scene. And no, current A-teamers won't switch, proleague is too competitive right now.
It is not quaranteed succes if you were a-teamer in brood war, it just means that you have higher chance of succes than lets say b-teamers
There is many b-teamers who kinda dominate the scene and many b-teamers who fail at the competition. There is just too much variance. This is why bw-succes does not automatically grant you great succes at sc2, it just means that probably it is somewhat higher probability.
Face it. SC2 scene is dominated by ex-Brood War players who were good at it. It's not about chance, it about time. Success is absolutely guaranteed and the question you should be asking is not "Will they succeed?" but "How long will it take them to takeover the current 'Good' SC2 players when the 'Good' BW players switch?".
Also, regarding the title: 'Top'? Hardly believable. Any 'Top' BW progamer would be crazy to switch to SC2 now.
On January 09 2012 19:57 bmml wrote: People need to understand that there is no reason Kespa players would start playing in GOM run leagues, I mean fuck they arent even on TV and it seems as though GOM is basically living off of foreign subscriptions (and treating us the worst, go figure). That isn't what these big sponsors in Kespa pay for, if they move over I assume they'll have their own league running alongside their proleague / OSL shows.
Kespa players have licenses for being starcraft 1 progamers for kespa (which is the sickest pain in the ass for blizz btw since they don't get any money from kespA), if they'd switch they would no longer be kespa players, you know like every bw pro that has switched thus far has no longer any buisness with kespa. GOM is a tv channel in korea, you know gomtv, go to gomtv.com and check out the korean site which features a lot more than just the gsl. The only thing about the gsl that lifes of foreigner subscriptions is the foreigner production, and the current stream quality is the quality it is because thats how much the current subscription are able to pay for. GOM has exclusive sc2 rights for I think atleast this year, or maybe just half of it. And even though blizz invited some bw pros to blizzcon to show them how big sc2 is in the foreign scene atm, all the shit that happened between kespa and blizz kinda makes me believe that if kespa will ever host sc2 competitions, it will atleast be in a corporation between kespa, gom and blizzard.
Not just on GOMTV, GSL is also shown on AniBOX as well as Channel1. We can also watch the VODs from olleh TV.
To people saying they are different games, I dont think anyone can make the claim that the BW pros will just immediately come to the sc2 scene and dominate but what we can safely say is that they will bring over their work ethic and innovation with the game. For example two of the best sc2 pro's right now weren't immediately amazing it took awhile but now they dominate everyone, and MVP was just barely an A teamer.
On January 09 2012 22:58 Kaien wrote: why does evryone think that hen bw pro players will switch they will be above mvp and nestea? it took forGG 8 monts to become as good as he is now.
if they swap they will probably be as good as Grubby and Moon.
And dont bother arguing cuz there is no way you can tell for sure
it took not even 2 months for hyun to get into code a
On January 09 2012 16:47 Megaliskuu wrote: SC2 cant be dominated because there is a lot more "silly" shit that can happen, in addition the dumbed down mechanics.
Terrible news either way.
Meh sadly, but true... Last GSL champion out in first round this GSL.... y0
On January 09 2012 16:47 Megaliskuu wrote: SC2 cant be dominated because there is a lot more "silly" shit that can happen, in addition the dumbed down mechanics.
Terrible news either way.
Meh sadly, but true... Last GSL champion out in first round this GSL.... y0
On January 09 2012 17:31 lFrost wrote: if the details in boss' post are correct then i doubt the bw pros switching over are ones that have played a proleague match this season. no bw team would seed any A teamer out in proleague that hasnt been practicing sc1 for the last couple months. so the people he is talking about are probably some a-teamers for the 3 bw teams that recently disbanded: FOX, OZ, MBC. so maybe Pure, Saint, RuBy, Pusan, major, HiyA, PerfectMan?
On January 09 2012 16:47 Megaliskuu wrote: SC2 cant be dominated because there is a lot more "silly" shit that can happen, in addition the dumbed down mechanics.
Terrible news either way.
Meh sadly, but true... Last GSL champion out in first round this GSL.... y0
check again :p
lol, dno... I saw Jjakji losing to a protoss from a thread yday meh fail sry.
On January 09 2012 20:50 RelZo wrote: LOL @ ppl thinking that ex-A teamers (A TEAMERS!!!) won't totally dominate the SC2 scene. And no, current A-teamers won't switch, proleague is too competitive right now.
It is not quaranteed succes if you were a-teamer in brood war, it just means that you have higher chance of succes than lets say b-teamers
There is many b-teamers who kinda dominate the scene and many b-teamers who fail at the competition. There is just too much variance. This is why bw-succes does not automatically grant you great succes at sc2, it just means that probably it is somewhat higher probability.
Face it. SC2 scene is dominated by ex-Brood War players who were good at it. It's not about chance, it about time. Success is absolutely guaranteed and the question you should be asking is not "Will they succeed?" but "How long will it take them to takeover the current 'Good' SC2 players when the 'Good' BW players switch?".
Also, regarding the title: 'Top'? Hardly believable. Any 'Top' BW progamer would be crazy to switch to SC2 now.
I would not call most of ex-bw players careers very "succes", but mediocre and many of them are very bad aswell.
Would only be great if the community merged in to one. The less split there is the higher the level will be. Sad for some of the BW fan boys but SC2 can gain the same level of skill if the pro's challenge eachother enough to force new levels. You can already see a huge difference between sc2 now and 1 year ago. I expect major new influx of former BW pro's at HOTS not really before though, there is too much strategy too learn to have success that quickly I think.
On January 09 2012 22:58 Kaien wrote: why does evryone think that hen bw pro players will switch they will be above mvp and nestea? it took forGG 8 monts to become as good as he is now.
if they swap they will probably be as good as Grubby and Moon.
And dont bother arguing cuz there is no way you can tell for sure
it took not even 2 months for hyun to get into code a
On top of that, forGG never even tried to qualify for GSL till recently. He was that good for a while now
fOrGG and MVP were the two best when they switched over (I guess PuMa as well), and they've done extremely well so far. The entire level of professional SC2 will increase if active A-teamers start switching over regularly.
It's as if we need one of these threads every month or so, and everyone makes the exact same posts in them. You have the people saying "I'm taking this with a grain of salt", the people saying "They're going to destroy everyone!" and then the people who say "No they're not!". Of course finally, a bunch of people drop in to say "OMG I hope Flash and Jaedong switch!!!"
I'm quickly losing hope that these threads can produce anything useful or original, but whatever, I guess there's no harm in it.
"I know that their results are very solid and consistent from brood war"
Yeah? Like results from 6 years ago or something? haha, no decent BW pro would switch to SC2 if they are doing good in BW.
I think its just a retired pro. And he probably wasn't doing too well when retired, but that should be more than enough for him to dominate SC2 scene anyway...
edit: BTW, not even Flash/Jaedong/Bisu can fix the game if it is broken, especially when its not even a finished game.
On January 09 2012 23:46 fabiano wrote: "I know that their results are very solid and consistent from brood war"
Yeah? Like results from 6 years ago or something? haha, no decent BW pro would switch to SC2 if they are doing good in BW.
I think its just a retired pro. And he probably wasn't doing too well when retired, but that should be more than enough for him to dominate SC2 scene anyway...
edit: BTW, not even Flash/Jaedong/Bisu can fix the game if it is broken, especially when its not even a finished game.
It isn't as perfect as BW, but it's a really good game and far from broken. Players like Flash will abuse it to hell, so Blizzard will fix what they can, the rest will evolve by the players. The whole BW scene is probably going to switch within a year anyway.
Any A-team BW pro that is currently competing in the SPL Proleague will not switch over ATM, because they are not practicing SC2 instead of BW in their practice time, because their team depends on them to win the PL matches (so they will only be practicing BW). Not even their practice partners, who are the B-teamers, since their time is ate up by being the practice partners of the A-teamers.
If any of this leak would hold true, it would be the previous members of the disbanded teams who weren't picked up switching over.
On January 09 2012 23:46 tree.hugger wrote: It's as if we need one of these threads every month or so, and everyone makes the exact same posts in them. You have the people saying "I'm taking this with a grain of salt", the people saying "They're going to destroy everyone!" and then the people who say "No they're not!". Of course finally, a bunch of people drop in to say "OMG I hope Flash and Jaedong switch!!!"
I'm quickly losing hope that these threads can produce anything useful or original, but whatever, I guess there's no harm in it.
To be fair tree, I think its dawned on people that its 2012. So at least this time there's end-of-the-world theories spread in there as well.
What I personally can't wait for is when a new generation of gamers beings to understand and play StarCraft II. Logically it makes sense as well. Every good BW player had to start a game that was semi-unknown and then each player rose to later success. As of right now most of the SC2 pros are old BW players usually within the level of Code B and sometimes Code C or below. The SC2 players now are the ones that had an altered view to gaming then when the first generation of BW pros appeared. New, younger players need to emerge, in my opinion, to have a different view of the game. Even if BW pros come over it'll be the BW style of play that will most likely be adapted to SC2 units and maps.
Having a random 15 year old with little to no experience in the pro gaming scene and has the dedication to work for the game will be a lot more successful. Take Flash for example. Flash is one of the most successful pro gamers of all time and his debut was when he was about 15. His view on the game and style itself revolutionized the BW pro scene.
My question is...What happens when the generation of young teenagers now develop passion for this game and begin to compete?
Hopefully Blizzard will be able to provide us with another extensively strategic game such as BW.
On January 09 2012 23:46 tree.hugger wrote: It's as if we need one of these threads every month or so, and everyone makes the exact same posts in them. You have the people saying "I'm taking this with a grain of salt", the people saying "They're going to destroy everyone!" and then the people who say "No they're not!". Of course finally, a bunch of people drop in to say "OMG I hope Flash and Jaedong switch!!!"
I'm quickly losing hope that these threads can produce anything useful or original, but whatever, I guess there's no harm in it.
On January 09 2012 20:50 RelZo wrote: LOL @ ppl thinking that ex-A teamers (A TEAMERS!!!) won't totally dominate the SC2 scene. And no, current A-teamers won't switch, proleague is too competitive right now.
It is not quaranteed succes if you were a-teamer in brood war, it just means that you have higher chance of succes than lets say b-teamers
There is many b-teamers who kinda dominate the scene and many b-teamers who fail at the competition. There is just too much variance. This is why bw-succes does not automatically grant you great succes at sc2, it just means that probably it is somewhat higher probability.
Face it. SC2 scene is dominated by ex-Brood War players who were good at it. It's not about chance, it about time. Success is absolutely guaranteed and the question you should be asking is not "Will they succeed?" but "How long will it take them to takeover the current 'Good' SC2 players when the 'Good' BW players switch?".
Also, regarding the title: 'Top'? Hardly believable. Any 'Top' BW progamer would be crazy to switch to SC2 now.
I would not call most of ex-bw players careers very "succes", but mediocre and many of them are very bad aswell.
I don't think you understood what I said.
What I mean to say is that the current 'good' SC2 players will fade away and will be replaced by the 'good' players of BW with time. It's not about the level of success per player, it's about success of surpassing the current 'good' SC2 players while maintaining the ladder of skill among the 'TOP' A-Teamers. Think of it this way, If you have any idea about the BW scene if ever the current 'good' BW players transfer to SC2, this is what I am talking about
On January 09 2012 23:46 tree.hugger wrote: It's as if we need one of these threads every month or so, and everyone makes the exact same posts in them. You have the people saying "I'm taking this with a grain of salt", the people saying "They're going to destroy everyone!" and then the people who say "No they're not!". Of course finally, a bunch of people drop in to say "OMG I hope Flash and Jaedong switch!!!"
I'm quickly losing hope that these threads can produce anything useful or original, but whatever, I guess there's no harm in it.
This is what the "Elephant in the Room" was all about. SC2 fans wanting higher game play that the noticeable deniers clearly can't deliver.
On January 09 2012 17:31 lFrost wrote: if the details in boss' post are correct then i doubt the bw pros switching over are ones that have played a proleague match this season. no bw team would seed any A teamer out in proleague that hasnt been practicing sc1 for the last couple months. so the people he is talking about are probably some a-teamers for the 3 bw teams that recently disbanded: FOX, OZ, MBC. so maybe Pure, Saint, RuBy, Pusan, major, HiyA, PerfectMan?
i would say likely, minus the obviously retired ones.
real A teamers like fantasy, stats, leta, reality, zero very unlikely
Vert unlikely for 40 days, but very likely by the end of the year or so. BW was amazing, but sadly all good things come to an end. But when you look more than 10 years of a game with such an incredible history that still going on now. More skill influx to the SC2 will make it more balanced, as more things will be exposed. It is definetely good thing that a lot of SC pros are switching and not retiring, look on the bright side - you can cheer for your favorite players for longer now.
On January 09 2012 23:46 tree.hugger wrote: It's as if we need one of these threads every month or so, and everyone makes the exact same posts in them. You have the people saying "I'm taking this with a grain of salt", the people saying "They're going to destroy everyone!" and then the people who say "No they're not!". Of course finally, a bunch of people drop in to say "OMG I hope Flash and Jaedong switch!!!"
I'm quickly losing hope that these threads can produce anything useful or original, but whatever, I guess there's no harm in it.
Even Hwanni was msging Artosis on his stream last week or so about how he trolled a lot of people on playxp about how some top BW pros were SWITCHING OVER.
I care, people switching over is big and interesting if its true, but I can't feel anything about rumours like these until theres actually something confirmed, and even then, not every A-teamer that happens to switch will necessarily end up being a big thing.
On January 09 2012 21:32 Lorch wrote: if kespa will ever host sc2 competitions, it will atleast be in a corporation between kespa, ogn and blizzard.
fixed for you. gom has no chance.
Why not?
currently gom holds all rights to sc2 content in korea which includes (tournament rights and broadcasting rights) if kespa gets tournament rights, ogn most probably will be the broadcaster of choice.
for broadcasting reasons, ogn production + infrastructure far exceeds what gom offers. for other reasons, kespa-gom bad blood.
I don't see a current A-teamer switching over. "I know that their results are very solid and consistent from brood war." If their results are solid and consistent then why would they switch? BW in Korea is still more popular than SC2 and has more money involved. If anybody is switching my money is on someone who retired from BW several months/years ago.
On January 09 2012 19:57 bmml wrote: People need to understand that there is no reason Kespa players would start playing in GOM run leagues, I mean fuck they arent even on TV and it seems as though GOM is basically living off of foreign subscriptions (and treating us the worst, go figure). That isn't what these big sponsors in Kespa pay for, if they move over I assume they'll have their own league running alongside their proleague / OSL shows.
Kespa players have licenses for being starcraft 1 progamers for kespa (which is the sickest pain in the ass for blizz btw since they don't get any money from kespA), if they'd switch they would no longer be kespa players, you know like every bw pro that has switched thus far has no longer any buisness with kespa. GOM is a tv channel in korea, you know gomtv, go to gomtv.com and check out the korean site which features a lot more than just the gsl. The only thing about the gsl that lifes of foreigner subscriptions is the foreigner production, and the current stream quality is the quality it is because thats how much the current subscription are able to pay for. GOM has exclusive sc2 rights for I think atleast this year, or maybe just half of it. And even though blizz invited some bw pros to blizzcon to show them how big sc2 is in the foreign scene atm, all the shit that happened between kespa and blizz kinda makes me believe that if kespa will ever host sc2 competitions, it will atleast be in a corporation between kespa, gom and blizzard.
Wasn't the lawsuit between kespa and blizzard settled and now blizzard is getting money from them? I thought that happened and they were friendly now.
It doesnt matter. SC2 is a different game and it will take awhile to acclimate. These pros arent going to come over to sc2 and dominate. Its not going to happen. Well, maybe if they all play terran they will
I've been hearing that every BW pro team has had their B-teams playing sc2 mainly. No word about A-teamers, but B-teams playing sc2 is a very realistic possibility.
On January 10 2012 01:32 TheResidentEvil wrote: It doesnt matter. SC2 is a different game and it will take awhile to acclimate. These pros arent going to come over to sc2 and dominate. Its not going to happen. Well, maybe if they all play terran they will
you will be proven wrong and people like me who know so will rub it in in the most annyoing way...
I look forward to seeing higher calliber games, I am not however looking forward to seeing my favourite foreign players be left in the dust
I wonder if foreign teams would still contract foreign players, maybe put some type of stipulation in contracts stating that players must reside and train in Korea. I can't see foreign teams just standing on the sideline, I am sure they would want a piece of the Korean pie
Also, of the top Korean BW players how many of them are still required to put time in the military?
Theres a difference between playing pofessionally and playing full time.
It is possible that these hypothetical A-teamers might try to pull a Moon and play professionally in two games at once.
Moon has had a hell of a lot more success in SC2 than many fulltime SC2 pros since release. Even though he hasn't tried to requalify for GSL in a long time.
On January 10 2012 01:45 RoboBob wrote: Theres a difference between playing pofessionally and playing full time.
It is possible that these hypothetical A-teamers might try to pull a Moon and play professionally in two games at once.
Moon has had a hell of a lot more success in SC2 than many fulltime SC2 pros since release. Even though he hasn't tried to requalify for GSL in a long time.
Wasn't there a post about this a few months ago? Like a bunch of the SC1 teams bought brand new comps that were obviously meant to run SC2...? Why bother added more hype while adding NO new information? I'm really sick of all the needless hype being thrown around the scene.
On January 10 2012 01:32 TheResidentEvil wrote: It doesnt matter. SC2 is a different game and it will take awhile to acclimate. These pros arent going to come over to sc2 and dominate. Its not going to happen. Well, maybe if they all play terran they will
you will be proven wrong and people like me who know so will rub it in in the most annyoing way...
On January 10 2012 01:32 TheResidentEvil wrote: It doesnt matter. SC2 is a different game and it will take awhile to acclimate. These pros arent going to come over to sc2 and dominate. Its not going to happen. Well, maybe if they all play terran they will
you will be proven wrong and people like me who know so will rub it in in the most annyoing way...
by bumping the elephant in the room article.
Don't you think that is really childish?
It's probably not what he is going to do but it is indeed something that some people will do.
On January 10 2012 01:53 SupLilSon wrote: Wasn't there a post about this a few months ago? Like a bunch of the SC1 teams bought brand new comps that were obviously meant to run SC2...? Why bother added more hype while adding NO new information? I'm really sick of all the needless hype being thrown around the scene.
I believe the within 40 days comment is new information. FXOBoss is rather plugged in to the korean scene. I believe him.
i don't care what you've done in BW, it means nothing in SC2 till you prove yourself. there have been enough arguments claiming the games are different.
On January 10 2012 01:32 TheResidentEvil wrote: It doesnt matter. SC2 is a different game and it will take awhile to acclimate. These pros arent going to come over to sc2 and dominate. Its not going to happen. Well, maybe if they all play terran they will
you will be proven wrong and people like me who know so will rub it in in the most annyoing way...
On January 09 2012 13:45 1Eris1 wrote: A little birdy? Does that mean a kespa insider or just a friend of his? Gonna take this with a grain of salt unless we know who is really saying this
I agree. I wish he had announced this in a better, more professional way, it almost seems like a bid for attention.
Whilst I am not fully familiar with the names (I am for sure not going to openly state who they are for risk of being insulted) I know that their results are very solid and consistent from brood war.
Not familiar with the names? Then how can you know that they are good, A-team pros?
I am technically not familliar with Flash (I, believe it or not, started to watch sc1 tournaments last season, when he was injured, so I never saw him play, nor do I know what he looks like) and yet, I know that he consistently owns the shit out of everyone... So how did I do to know flash was A team if I never saw his play, or his face before?
On January 10 2012 01:32 TheResidentEvil wrote: It doesnt matter. SC2 is a different game and it will take awhile to acclimate. These pros arent going to come over to sc2 and dominate. Its not going to happen. Well, maybe if they all play terran they will
you will be proven wrong and people like me who know so will rub it in in the most annyoing way...
On January 10 2012 02:03 darkscream wrote: hypefap hypefap hypefap hypefap
i don't care what you've done in BW, it means nothing in SC2 till you prove yourself. there have been enough arguments claiming the games are different.
I'll believe that when a great BW player switches over and doesn't play well. Even the retired pros like Nada, July and BoxeR do fairly well.
On January 10 2012 01:32 TheResidentEvil wrote: It doesnt matter. SC2 is a different game and it will take awhile to acclimate. These pros arent going to come over to sc2 and dominate. Its not going to happen. Well, maybe if they all play terran they will
you will be proven wrong and people like me who know so will rub it in in the most annyoing way...
by bumping the elephant in the room article.
Don't you think that is really childish?
Nope.
I mean I'll probably bump the thread when ForGG wins GSL January.
On January 10 2012 01:33 Aundasch wrote: I hope Firebathero will switch to see more awesome stuff like this: + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r7BB78mk34
For those who don't know, FBH is currently serving in the military, and has been for a while. He still shows up and plays (really well, I might add) in PL for the Air Force ACE team.
I suppose he could switch to SC2, but certainly not while in the military. If he does, it will be after he's done serving, and I think it will be great for SC2 if he did. He brings a certain showmanship that we have not yet seen in SC2. Sure, murloc costumes are nice, but what's a murloc costume to a lengthy dance and your balls shockingly close to your crushed opponent's face?
I dont see any A team bw pro with solid results that is not playing in the proleague at the moment... Looks like another attempt to recycle an old chestnut.
I hope that the biggest BW players do not join sc2. I want to remember Jeadong and Flash as greatest BW player not some sc2 code B level.Also sc2 dosent require as much skill as BW!
On January 09 2012 23:46 tree.hugger wrote: It's as if we need one of these threads every month or so, and everyone makes the exact same posts in them. You have the people saying "I'm taking this with a grain of salt", the people saying "They're going to destroy everyone!" and then the people who say "No they're not!". Of course finally, a bunch of people drop in to say "OMG I hope Flash and Jaedong switch!!!"
I'm quickly losing hope that these threads can produce anything useful or original, but whatever, I guess there's no harm in it.
No, just lock them dude. these threads are just intellectual vomit, with tons of people bickering about stuff that neither side has any real facts on, and then the occasional reference to that other awful elephant thread.
On January 10 2012 02:29 umsplay wrote: I hope that the biggest BW players do not join sc2. I want to remember Jeadong and Flash as greatest BW player not some sc2 code B level.Also sc2 dosent require as much skill as BW!
User was warned for this post
why was he warned? everybody got right to an opinion?
on the other hand.. When I look at Julyzerg and I think back to Broodwar Im not even sure anymore that the top players from BW will dominate when they switch over..I mean sure.. I suppose there will be some new innovative builds and strats but I dunno guys...I mean July clearly got problems with the Sc2, his decisions when charging in with lings vs marines in a corner with 2 medivacs is just so fail..sure he was not at top at the last years but still..it's a former champion from 08.
On January 10 2012 02:29 umsplay wrote: I hope that the biggest BW players do not join sc2. I want to remember Jeadong and Flash as greatest BW player not some sc2 code B level.Also sc2 dosent require as much skill as BW!
User was warned for this post
why was he warned? everybody got right to an opinion?
on the other hand.. When I look at Julyzerg and I think back to Broodwar Im not even sure anymore that the top players from BW will dominate when they switch over..I mean sure.. I suppose there will be some new innovative builds and strats but I dunno guys...I mean July clearly got problems with the Sc2, his decisions when charging in with lings vs marines in a corner with 2 medivacs is just so fail..sure he was not at top at the last years but still..it's a former champion from 08.
Obvious attempt to stir up a BW vs SC2 flame war would be my guess.
On January 10 2012 02:29 umsplay wrote: I hope that the biggest BW players do not join sc2. I want to remember Jeadong and Flash as greatest BW player not some sc2 code B level.Also sc2 dosent require as much skill as BW!
User was warned for this post
why was he warned? everybody got right to an opinion?
on the other hand.. When I look at Julyzerg and I think back to Broodwar Im not even sure anymore that the top players from BW will dominate when they switch over..I mean sure.. I suppose there will be some new innovative builds and strats but I dunno guys...I mean July clearly got problems with the Sc2, his decisions when charging in with lings vs marines in a corner with 2 medivacs is just so fail..sure he was not at top at the last years but still..it's a former champion from 08.
Yeah 2008....by 2010 when he switched over he was terrible. (and he still made to a gsl final when no Zerg was winning)
On January 10 2012 02:29 umsplay wrote: I hope that the biggest BW players do not join sc2. I want to remember Jeadong and Flash as greatest BW player not some sc2 code B level.Also sc2 dosent require as much skill as BW!
User was warned for this post
why was he warned? everybody got right to an opinion?
on the other hand.. When I look at Julyzerg and I think back to Broodwar Im not even sure anymore that the top players from BW will dominate when they switch over..I mean sure.. I suppose there will be some new innovative builds and strats but I dunno guys...I mean July clearly got problems with the Sc2, his decisions when charging in with lings vs marines in a corner with 2 medivacs is just so fail..sure he was not at top at the last years but still..it's a former champion from 08.
Yeah 2008....by 2010 when he switched over he was terrible. (and he still made to a gsl final when no Zerg was winning)
He made the GSL by all inning almost every single game he played, and if you haven't noticed he hasn't really done anything else after that because people realized all he can do now is all in. Getting to one finals once and then getting demolished doesn't mean anything, I mean inca made it to a finals too.
On January 10 2012 02:29 umsplay wrote: Also sc2 dosent require as much skill as BW!
Don't even come into this house with that bullshit.
Why? He isn't wrong. You can find a slew of interviews where pros say the same thing.
But on topic, I think it would be cool to see some BW elites come over to SC2 for a couple of reasons. 1) to mix things up and see how the current SC2 players fare, 2) to see if the BW pros can transfer their skills to SC2 - because the races play very differently (i.e. I think Flash's current Terran style would be more suited to SC2 Zerg or Protoss than Terran). 3) to see if they're still the best and/or so freaking good in general that they dominate a new game as well.
Would be cool I think; but I've gotta admit, I'll feel bad for BW and the old scene.
july fluked his way to that osl victory in 2008 out of sheer luck, by having the easiest bracket in the history of the osl (rock, backho and best, seriously?)
pretty sure any zerg at the time would have devoured through that.
On January 09 2012 13:50 awwnuts07 wrote: Unless it's the BW top dogs, I can't really say I'm super interested.
Are you serious? These guys are on level or better than people like MVP or ForGG.
If you're not interested for that... Wow.
they were a level above MVP when MVP was playing BW sure, but then MVP started getting really good at SC2 to the point he's at now, people need to stop Over estimating how good they are going to be when they switch, it's not like all current sc2 players are going to disappear, but the Bar will certainly be raised for the lower tier of pros
On January 10 2012 02:29 umsplay wrote: I hope that the biggest BW players do not join sc2. I want to remember Jeadong and Flash as greatest BW player not some sc2 code B level.Also sc2 dosent require as much skill as BW!
User was warned for this post
why was he warned? everybody got right to an opinion?
on the other hand.. When I look at Julyzerg and I think back to Broodwar Im not even sure anymore that the top players from BW will dominate when they switch over..I mean sure.. I suppose there will be some new innovative builds and strats but I dunno guys...I mean July clearly got problems with the Sc2, his decisions when charging in with lings vs marines in a corner with 2 medivacs is just so fail..sure he was not at top at the last years but still..it's a former champion from 08.
Yeah 2008....by 2010 when he switched over he was terrible. (and he still made to a gsl final when no Zerg was winning)
He made the GSL by all inning almost every single game he played, and if you haven't noticed he hasn't really done anything else after that because people realized all he can do now is all in. Getting to one finals once and then getting demolished doesn't mean anything, I mean inca made it to a finals too.
Ehh I guess, it worked though. My point was he was terrible in bw when he switched over. It's amazing how people still can't grasp that
Worst case scenario is if KeSPA makes Proleague do a full switch into SC2 without incorporating any existing SC2 players and teams. This would alienate a lot of BW and SC2 fans, as not all Korean BW watchers will follow the switch and some of the SC2 fans may not follow it too much if their current favorite players or teams aren't represented.
However, I think the best case scenario is if they open up a new, separate SC2 league (individual or team) that incorporates existing SC2 players and teams in addition with some BW players and teams. The BW leagues would still exist since hopefully OGN will have a separate broadcast schedule for the SC2 leagues.
Handled correctly, this can grow the scene tremendously without too much risk of doing damage. Handled incorrectly, I fear that this may be very destructive to both scenes.
You guys should to suggest opinion some pro players or people who knows pro bw. Huk example who know people he said couple words in Providence. One time I asked ForGG on stream when bw players will come, he also know something for sure, but he said just " dont know"
On January 10 2012 03:24 GTR wrote: july fluked his way to that osl victory in 2008 out of sheer luck, by having the easiest bracket in the history of the osl (rock, backho and best, seriously?)
pretty sure any zerg at the time would have devoured through that.
On January 10 2012 01:32 TheResidentEvil wrote: It doesnt matter. SC2 is a different game and it will take awhile to acclimate. These pros arent going to come over to sc2 and dominate. Its not going to happen. Well, maybe if they all play terran they will
you will be proven wrong and people like me who know so will rub it in in the most annyoing way...
by bumping the elephant in the room article.
Do you feel the need to say the same thing every time this comes up?
On January 10 2012 04:52 ImbaTosS wrote: One factor- has anyone seen how well the BroodWar Proleague is doing this season? Answer is very well.
According to Milki's its doing like 1/3rd the viewership that it had in 2007 and isn't getting that many. I don't want bw to die but it seems all the people in korea who actually can find stuff out and I don't see why fxoboss would lie either and with milkis saying the same thing well doesn't look good.
I enjoy both bw/sc2 and looks like this might be the last of bw unless milkis/boss are just playing a joke which again I highly doubt.
It's actually so interesting to see the skill gap between BW and SC2. Hyun just rarely came into the scene on TSL, even though he probably was practicing SC2 for a while. But yet, he gets into Code A through preliminaries his first or one of his first times. Can't wait to see them come over, and hopefully tear it up in the GSL
On January 10 2012 04:52 ImbaTosS wrote: One factor- has anyone seen how well the BroodWar Proleague is doing this season? Answer is very well.
According to Milki's its doing like 1/3rd the viewership that it had in 2007 and isn't getting that many. I don't want bw to die but it seems all the people in korea who actually can find stuff out and I don't see why fxoboss would lie either and with milkis saying the same thing well doesn't look good.
I enjoy both bw/sc2 and looks like this might be the last of bw unless milkis/boss are just playing a joke which again I highly doubt.
That may be true, but I'm sure it is beating sc2 viewership handily. BW may be way smaller than before, but in comparison to other esports, it is still massive. 700,000 people watched Boxer's first GSL match, which is higher than what MLG, IPL, NASL, IEM, Dreamhack got in their finals put together. And that was only a Ro64 GSL match.
On January 10 2012 04:52 ImbaTosS wrote: One factor- has anyone seen how well the BroodWar Proleague is doing this season? Answer is very well.
According to Milki's its doing like 1/3rd the viewership that it had in 2007 and isn't getting that many. I don't want bw to die but it seems all the people in korea who actually can find stuff out and I don't see why fxoboss would lie either and with milkis saying the same thing well doesn't look good.
I enjoy both bw/sc2 and looks like this might be the last of bw unless milkis/boss are just playing a joke which again I highly doubt.
That may be true, but I'm sure it is beating sc2 viewership handily. BW may be way smaller than before, but in comparison to other esports, it is still massive. 700,000 people watched Boxer's first GSL match, which is higher than what MLG, IPL, NASL, IEM, Dreamhack got in their finals put together. And that was only a Ro64 GSL match.
Well it obviously isn't beating sc2 viewership handily considering kespa is really wanting to get sc2 in there now. In korea GSL yeah I imagine bw is doing better both in terms of actually going and also online viewership but in korea only not counting foreigners who watch.
But i also don't know how many viewership bw gets but if it was beating sc2 viewership easy peasy I just don't see why they would want to switch to sc2 then ^^.
I think only a few of them or even that will actually get to the top. The mechanics in sc2 are so easy so i dont think they will be better than MVP or Nestea they wont be better just because they had godly mechanics in bw.
On January 10 2012 02:29 umsplay wrote: I hope that the biggest BW players do not join sc2. I want to remember Jeadong and Flash as greatest BW player not some sc2 code B level.Also sc2 dosent require as much skill as BW!
User was warned for this post
why was he warned? everybody got right to an opinion?
on the other hand.. When I look at Julyzerg and I think back to Broodwar Im not even sure anymore that the top players from BW will dominate when they switch over..I mean sure.. I suppose there will be some new innovative builds and strats but I dunno guys...I mean July clearly got problems with the Sc2, his decisions when charging in with lings vs marines in a corner with 2 medivacs is just so fail..sure he was not at top at the last years but still..it's a former champion from 08.
Yeah 2008....by 2010 when he switched over he was terrible. (and he still made to a gsl final when no Zerg was winning)
He made the GSL by all inning almost every single game he played, and if you haven't noticed he hasn't really done anything else after that because people realized all he can do now is all in. Getting to one finals once and then getting demolished doesn't mean anything, I mean inca made it to a finals too.
July got Ro4 in Code S a few seasons ago losing to MVP...
I'm not happy about this. I like watching both games, but now all the BW people seem to slowly be moving over and taking over Sc2. Leenock needs to win a GSL before this happens! People for ForGG and Hyun are proving that BW A-teamers, whether playing at their top skill or not, can easily be very successful in Sc2.
I am interested in the "5 months of just SC2" part of this, because I was hearing that most BW pros would want a full year before entering pro competition in SC2.
If these guys come in and rape, just imagine when the real A+ Aces come over.
On January 10 2012 06:20 Witten wrote: I'm not happy about this. I like watching both games, but now all the BW people seem to slowly be moving over and taking over Sc2. Leenock needs to win a GSL before this happens! People for ForGG and Hyun are proving that BW A-teamers, whether playing at their top skill or not, can easily be very successful in Sc2.
I wouldn't worry about Leenock, he's younger than most of the pros either way. He has more time to really succeed in SC2, if he has the talent and the drive he can probably compete with upcoming BW A-Teamers, but it's so early to tell, and who knows how the game will be balanced for Leenock's playstyle in HotS and LotV.
On January 10 2012 06:28 UndoneJin wrote: I am interested in the "5 months of just SC2" part of this, because I was hearing that most BW pros would want a full year before entering pro competition in SC2.
If these guys come in and rape, just imagine when the real A+ Aces come over.
Most of them will probably do the same thing as fOrGG did.
Retire from BW practice incognito during a few month Reveal your playing sc2 Try Code A.
On January 10 2012 06:20 Witten wrote: I'm not happy about this. I like watching both games, but now all the BW people seem to slowly be moving over and taking over Sc2. Leenock needs to win a GSL before this happens! People for ForGG and Hyun are proving that BW A-teamers, whether playing at their top skill or not, can easily be very successful in Sc2.
Wasn't Leenock an amateur BW player? (same with Jjaki for that matter)
This will be interesting. Now while there is so many foreign players in korea to compete in GSL, the next time Code A qualifiers will happen there will be loads of BW pros haha. Naniwa, Jinro, Destiny, Naama, Deathangel, Sase & Idra will get owned once again... and fail to even qualify, unless they get the easy invite to Code S...
On January 10 2012 04:52 ImbaTosS wrote: One factor- has anyone seen how well the BroodWar Proleague is doing this season? Answer is very well.
According to Milki's its doing like 1/3rd the viewership that it had in 2007 and isn't getting that many. I don't want bw to die but it seems all the people in korea who actually can find stuff out and I don't see why fxoboss would lie either and with milkis saying the same thing well doesn't look good.
I enjoy both bw/sc2 and looks like this might be the last of bw unless milkis/boss are just playing a joke which again I highly doubt.
lol 1/3 of 2007 .... like its bad? Latest proleague finals:
The fact that mass viewership was recorded by teenagers rather than people in their 20’s is evidence that Brood War remains popular in following generations since the first Proleague finals in 2003. The final set between Flash and Best reflected the most response from viewers, achieving a max viewership ratio of 2.514% (21% of males aged 16-19). In other words, 2 out of every 10 male Korean high school students watched the last set of the Proleague final.
Compare it to GSL when you have more foreigners in the audience than koreans (wtf?). BW seems to be more secure for station like OGN or big sponsor. Even if its 1/3 or 1/5(whateva) of its former glory.
GuemChi hasn't played in this season of Proleague yet. He temporarily retired from BW to go soul searching and ended up playing SC2 for a bit, even attempting to qualify for one of the GSL Open Seasons. However, he returned to BW and rejoined Woongjin Stars soon afterwards.
Since he hasn't been active this season and has some SC2 experience, perhaps he may be a candidate for a BW pro turned SC2 pro.
On January 10 2012 07:32 iamke55 wrote: Once the top Brood War pros switch over, there will be no one left to stop Bisu from taking his rightful throne as the OSL champion. + Show Spoiler +
haven't watched bw since early 2010, but i would love to see some of my old favorites give sc2 a try. Leta has a very aggressive mentality that would be absolutely brilliant in sc2.
I know he won't in 40 days but damn I will be so excited when The Tyrant himself finally will make the switch to SC2, also I'm pretty stoked about everyone else switching from BW to SC2
On January 10 2012 04:52 ImbaTosS wrote: One factor- has anyone seen how well the BroodWar Proleague is doing this season? Answer is very well.
According to Milki's its doing like 1/3rd the viewership that it had in 2007 and isn't getting that many. I don't want bw to die but it seems all the people in korea who actually can find stuff out and I don't see why fxoboss would lie either and with milkis saying the same thing well doesn't look good.
I enjoy both bw/sc2 and looks like this might be the last of bw unless milkis/boss are just playing a joke which again I highly doubt.
lol 1/3 of 2007 .... like its bad? Latest proleague finals:
The fact that mass viewership was recorded by teenagers rather than people in their 20’s is evidence that Brood War remains popular in following generations since the first Proleague finals in 2003. The final set between Flash and Best reflected the most response from viewers, achieving a max viewership ratio of 2.514% (21% of males aged 16-19). In other words, 2 out of every 10 male Korean high school students watched the last set of the Proleague final.
Compare it to GSL when you have more foreigners in the audience than koreans (wtf?). BW seems to be more secure for station like OGN or big sponsor. Even if its 1/3 or 1/5(whateva) of its former glory.
You are talking proleague finals. I am talking proleague regular matches. Just saying I trust the words of people in korea like boss or milki's who reads the websites all the time.
Again they (milkis unless I am mis reading what he is saying) even said as well that other then finals, viewership isn't doing as good. So yeah I forgot to mention that my bad where the finals is a small period compared to the actual proleague season. I wouldn't be sad at all though if milki's was wrong and let alone boss was and bw ended up still going strong for a few more years but just doesn't seem the case. I want to see jaedong win 2 more championships minimum
On January 10 2012 07:45 tombola wrote: I know he won't in 40 days but damn I will be so excited when The Tyrant himself finally will make the switch to SC2, also I'm pretty stoked about everyone else switching from BW to SC2
The Tyrant eh? =( I dont' see any Tyrant in his eyes anymore. Wake up Mr.Dong! Anyways, I'd like to see him switch only when and if BW scene dies. Not sooner
On January 10 2012 04:52 ImbaTosS wrote: One factor- has anyone seen how well the BroodWar Proleague is doing this season? Answer is very well.
According to Milki's its doing like 1/3rd the viewership that it had in 2007 and isn't getting that many. I don't want bw to die but it seems all the people in korea who actually can find stuff out and I don't see why fxoboss would lie either and with milkis saying the same thing well doesn't look good.
I enjoy both bw/sc2 and looks like this might be the last of bw unless milkis/boss are just playing a joke which again I highly doubt.
lol 1/3 of 2007 .... like its bad? Latest proleague finals:
The fact that mass viewership was recorded by teenagers rather than people in their 20’s is evidence that Brood War remains popular in following generations since the first Proleague finals in 2003. The final set between Flash and Best reflected the most response from viewers, achieving a max viewership ratio of 2.514% (21% of males aged 16-19). In other words, 2 out of every 10 male Korean high school students watched the last set of the Proleague final.
Compare it to GSL when you have more foreigners in the audience than koreans (wtf?). BW seems to be more secure for station like OGN or big sponsor. Even if its 1/3 or 1/5(whateva) of its former glory.
You are talking proleague finals. I am talking proleague regular matches. Just saying I trust the words of people in korea like boss or milki's who reads the websites all the time.
Again they (milkis unless I am mis reading what he is saying) even said as well that other then finals, viewership isn't doing as good. So yeah I forgot to mention that my bad where the finals is a small period compared to the actual proleague season. I wouldn't be sad at all though if milki's was wrong and let alone boss was and bw ended up still going strong for a few more years but just doesn't seem the case. I want to see jaedong win 2 more championships minimum
Right, BW is definatley doing awful. Number #1 in 13-29 age bracket is terrible.
On January 09 2012 14:12 TBone- wrote: no one cares about the life of brood war it seems ... :'(
Interesting trend in this thread. If only I had the balls to pull an all-nighter watching PL...
It's not actually interesting, this is the Starcraft 2 forum. It's assumed the majority here are watching SC2, and want to watch the best SC2. So we'll all be happy with better people in SC2, regardless of whatever is up with BW.
I find it funny that people in this thread think that GOM only caters to SC2 fans and OGN only caters to BW fans while being owned by CJ by stock percentage. You can see the bias from here.
And to all the naysayers - You can say that the game is figured out, the best players are currently playing etc. etc. All I can say to that is just wait and see.
On January 10 2012 08:49 SkelA wrote: I'll beleive it when I see it. For now this is all a bunch of bullshit.
There is plenty of reason to believe it. To quote user "fr1tz" from Reddit:
"It's amazing how there are still people doubting after all this. And people think Flash hasn't touched sc2 yet? On the IM stream with Hwanni translating, Nestea said Flash was playing throughout the off-season and that he is brilliant. All the bw teams are practicing sc2 now, it's just a question of how much. There are screenshots of real-ids, computers getting upgraded to run sc2 in team houses and switching to widescreen lcds, articles on fomos... they are coming." [link to comment]
Most of these things have been well known for a while now. There is no reason for you to doubt at this point.
I don't see why star craft one players would be that good in star craft two I mean it's a different game is like saying well this guy is a good basketball player I guess he'll be just as good if not better in hockey. Besides star craft two has harder mechanics and is the better game.
I would argue that the timeline is something like 1. Competition (between the games/companies) 2. Acceptance (is this where we are today?) 3. Parallel existence (OGN picking up SC2? proteams doing both BW&SC2?) 4. Assimilation (???)
The future is still uncertain as to when these things will happen, but in my mind there is no doubt that they will. Maybe these news indicate that we are in phase 2, a prelude to things to come but we are not at phase 3 yet.
On January 10 2012 09:10 fox77 wrote: I don't see why star craft one players would be that good in star craft two I mean it's a different game is like saying well this guy is a good basketball player I guess he'll be just as good if not better in hockey. Besides star craft two has harder mechanics and is the better game.
Not true. The most important thing BW pros have is the ability to learn and to train and that's a valuable skill that translates really well from BW to SC2. Also I think you're trolling.
On January 10 2012 09:10 fox77 wrote: I don't see why star craft one players would be that good in star craft two I mean it's a different game is like saying well this guy is a good basketball player I guess he'll be just as good if not better in hockey.
The fact that almost every single current SC2 pro has a strong RTS background either in Brood War or Warcraft 3 would seem to indicate a correlation despite the fact that they may technically be different games.
Besides star craft two has harder mechanics and is the better game.
On January 10 2012 09:10 fox77 wrote: I don't see why star craft one players would be that good in star craft two I mean it's a different game is like saying well this guy is a good basketball player I guess he'll be just as good if not better in hockey. Besides star craft two has harder mechanics and is the better game.
Comparing basketball to hockey in no way ever can be related to comparing BW and SC2. It's more like badmitten and tennis if we're using sports analogies, can't think of better ones imo.
Not touching that second sentence with a 30ft pole because thats troll bait.
On January 10 2012 08:49 SkelA wrote: I'll beleive it when I see it. For now this is all a bunch of bullshit.
There is plenty of reason to believe it. To quote user "fr1tz" from Reddit:
"It's amazing how there are still people doubting after all this. And people think Flash hasn't touched sc2 yet? On the IM stream with Hwanni translating, Nestea said Flash was playing throughout the off-season and that he is brilliant. All the bw teams are practicing sc2 now, it's just a question of how much. There are screenshots of real-ids, computers getting upgraded to run sc2 in team houses and switching to widescreen lcds, articles on fomos... they are coming." [link to comment]
Most of these things have been well known for a while now. There is no reason for you to doubt at this point.
You completely cleared out all doubts with posting obvious information. I guess we have real evidence now lol.
About flash, hmm i think hes more interested in getting 4th OSL title rather than fool around sc2 now, whatever he does offseason is his choice really. And i could say that about ANY notable name in bw scene. Read interviews, Jangbi cannot wait for OSL stork seems pumped too, bisu ? I guess he wants his first title and so on blablabala
After OSL yes maybe, who knows. Now? TOP player? You kidding me.
edit: and the fact they "play" as they have accouinits and were fooling around ladder is known for months.
SC2 is not a worthy sucessor to BW yet. Not even close.
If someday it actually reaches the level of perfection of BW, then and only then I would not mind high profile pros switching over and eventually putting BW to rest. And that day will be declared world's holiday, written in history books and forever remembered as the day the best game ever created left our mortal world to become the god of eSports to watch over us.
I seriously doubt SC2 will ever get to BW level, so... yeah, SC2 has much more than a long road ahead, and with Dustin Browder designing it, it is going the reverse way.
On January 10 2012 07:45 tombola wrote: I know he won't in 40 days but damn I will be so excited when The Tyrant himself finally will make the switch to SC2, also I'm pretty stoked about everyone else switching from BW to SC2
You need to read more carefully. TBLS are considered to be S-class, and I believe FXOboss stated "A-class". Also, any players that are playing in proleague and sent into games regularly are highly unlikely to be switching in 40 days time. If anything, I would consider people that weren't picked up by teams from the teams that were disbanded. However, in recent interviews, some of them have also blatantly stated that they wouldn't be playing SC2 (Hiya, for example stated that because he got beat by ForGG playing Zerg, he wouldn't be switching).
Also you have to consider people like Anytime/Backho who have been streaming BW on Afreeca. Although it is more or less just a hobby for them, I would also consider them unlikely to switch atm, coz they would be playing/practicing SC2 instead of streaming BW. (Backho especially because he retired and is studying at theological seminar).
On January 10 2012 09:30 SolaR- wrote: I'll believe it when Kespa makes an official announcement, otherwise i call total bs at this moment.
Yeah, you should probably look at the player rosters in the coming months. Although I don't Kespa is responsible for player's decisions themselves.
On January 09 2012 13:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can see them practicing WoL to get a feel for the slight differences between BW and SC2, and then possibly making the official switch when HotS comes out, since that will equalize the playing field.
And then they'll probably crush some skulls and crack some necks. Being an A-Teamer BW player is not something to take lightly.
Yeah, a whole bunch of players above MVPs level at average, which means some will be even better.
Mvp actually was quite the Broodwar talent, he was probably going to be very good, but he switched early
On January 10 2012 09:46 Nazza wrote: You need to read more carefully. TBLS are considered to be S-class, and I believe FXOboss stated "A-class".
He said A-teamers, and S-class players are obviously A-teamers. That being said, there is no chance in hell that TBLS will switch to SC2 in 40 days.
On January 10 2012 09:46 Nazza wrote: Also, any players that are playing in proleague and sent into games regularly are highly unlikely to be switching in 40 days time. If anything, I would consider people that weren't picked up by teams from the teams that were disbanded. However, in recent interviews, some of them have also blatantly stated that they wouldn't be playing SC2 (Hiya, for example stated that because he got beat by ForGG playing Zerg, he wouldn't be switching).
Also you have to consider people like Anytime/Backho who have been streaming BW on Afreeca. Although it is more or less just a hobby for them, I would also consider them unlikely to switch atm, coz they would be playing/practicing SC2 instead of streaming BW. (Backho especially because he retired and is studying at theological seminar).
I agree with you and this is often overlooked. I think a lot of BW players would rather quit progaming all together than switch to SC2 (I think that there are more A-teamers that have retired than switched to SC2 already).
On January 09 2012 13:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can see them practicing WoL to get a feel for the slight differences between BW and SC2, and then possibly making the official switch when HotS comes out, since that will equalize the playing field.
And then they'll probably crush some skulls and crack some necks. Being an A-Teamer BW player is not something to take lightly.
Yeah, a whole bunch of players above MVPs level at average, which means some will be even better.
Mvp actually was quite the Broodwar talent, he was probably going to be very good, but he switched early
On January 09 2012 13:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can see them practicing WoL to get a feel for the slight differences between BW and SC2, and then possibly making the official switch when HotS comes out, since that will equalize the playing field.
And then they'll probably crush some skulls and crack some necks. Being an A-Teamer BW player is not something to take lightly.
Yeah, a whole bunch of players above MVPs level at average, which means some will be even better.
Mvp actually was quite the Broodwar talent, he was probably going to be very good, but he switched early
This my dear friends, is the beginning. The beginning of what will soon be the true starcraft pro scene.
How can someone say such a thing? This guy has clearly never followed the BW scene. How damn frustrating it is to read ignorant statements like these. I hope I'm misunderstanding his sayings because it couldn't be more wrong.
On January 10 2012 09:25 fabiano wrote: SC2 is not a worthy sucessor to BW yet. Not even close.
If someday it actually reaches the level of perfection of BW, then and only then I would not mind high profile pros switching over and eventually putting BW to rest. And that day will be declared world's holiday, written in history books and forever remembered as the day the best game ever created left our mortal world to become the god of eSports to watch over us.
I seriously doubt SC2 will ever get to BW level, so... yeah, SC2 has much more than a long road ahead, and with Dustin Browder designing it, it is going the reverse way.
I think it comes down most to personal taste. Yeah, the BW pros are probably more professional and have a better work ethic, but I don´t think it´s accurate to say that one game is that much better than the other.
In my opinion, SC2 is just a lot more entertaining than BW. Yeah, I just got in the esports scene after SC2 came out, but in the past few months I watched BW and I didn´t like it as much, even though I understand what the game did to the esports scene.
In the end, it comes down a lot to personal preference, and in my opinion, taking into account the BW legacy, I think SC2 is in the right way to be a worthy sucessor to BW and is such an amazing game.
On January 10 2012 09:25 fabiano wrote: SC2 is not a worthy sucessor to BW yet. Not even close.
If someday it actually reaches the level of perfection of BW, then and only then I would not mind high profile pros switching over and eventually putting BW to rest. And that day will be declared world's holiday, written in history books and forever remembered as the day the best game ever created left our mortal world to become the god of eSports to watch over us.
I seriously doubt SC2 will ever get to BW level, so... yeah, SC2 has much more than a long road ahead, and with Dustin Browder designing it, it is going the reverse way.
I think it comes down most to personal taste. Yeah, the BW pros are probably more professional and have a better work ethic, but I don´t think it´s accurate to say that one game is that much better than the other.
In my opinion, SC2 is just a lot more entertaining than BW. Yeah, I just got in the esports scene after SC2 came out, but in the past few months I watched BW and I didn´t like it as much, even though I understand what the game did to the esports scene.
In the end, it comes down a lot to personal preference, and in my opinion, taking into account the BW legacy, I think SC2 is in the right way to be a worthy sucessor to BW and is such an amazing game.
If you would have followed BW for a long time you would probably have a different opinion. The game just doesn't come down to what shows on screen, it's the difference in depth in the development of the game. And as fabiano said, Dustin Browder is the man not taking SC2 to the next level of depth where BW was.
But I agree that the enjoyment comes to personal opinions, but everyone knows (even SC2 pros) that BW is much more complex and a well developed game and I'm sure you've already heard about it since all the threads talking about both BW and SC2 comes down to that argument lol.
On January 10 2012 09:25 fabiano wrote: SC2 is not a worthy sucessor to BW yet. Not even close.
If someday it actually reaches the level of perfection of BW, then and only then I would not mind high profile pros switching over and eventually putting BW to rest. And that day will be declared world's holiday, written in history books and forever remembered as the day the best game ever created left our mortal world to become the god of eSports to watch over us.
I seriously doubt SC2 will ever get to BW level, so... yeah, SC2 has much more than a long road ahead, and with Dustin Browder designing it, it is going the reverse way.
I think it comes down most to personal taste. Yeah, the BW pros are probably more professional and have a better work ethic, but I don´t think it´s accurate to say that one game is that much better than the other.
In my opinion, SC2 is just a lot more entertaining than BW. Yeah, I just got in the esports scene after SC2 came out, but in the past few months I watched BW and I didn´t like it as much, even though I understand what the game did to the esports scene.
In the end, it comes down a lot to personal preference, and in my opinion, taking into account the BW legacy, I think SC2 is in the right way to be a worthy sucessor to BW and is such an amazing game.
If you would have followed BW for a long time you would probably have a different opinion. The game just doesn't come down to what shows on screen, it's the difference in depth in the development of the game. And as fabiano said, Dustin Browder is the man not taking SC2 to the next level of depth where BW was.
But I agree that the enjoyment comes to personal opinions, but everyone knows (even SC2 pros) that BW is much more complex and a well developed game and I'm sure you've already heard about it since all the threads talking about both BW and SC2 comes down to that argument lol.
It's very unfair to expect a year old game to have the depth of a 13 year old game. I'm not saying Sc2 will reach the depth of Brood War, maybe it will or won't but you absolutely can't expect it at this stage.
On January 10 2012 10:24 Nightmare-br wrote: I think it comes down most to personal taste. Yeah, the BW pros are probably more professional and have a better work ethic, but I don´t think it´s accurate to say that one game is that much better than the other.
Yeah, it's probably not very accurate to say that one game is better than the other. However, when you quantify "better" as "more suitable for professional competitive play", that is a lot easier to determine.
On January 10 2012 10:24 Nightmare-br wrote: In my opinion, SC2 is just a lot more entertaining than BW.
Arguably, League of Legends is more entertaining than either of the Starcrafts.
But the question is, do you want your esports served as part of the entertainment industry as a cheap flick OR do you want an actual competitive sport formed around a game that can clearly separate many different tiers of skill and make it progressively more difficult to reach the higher levels of play.
Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
On January 10 2012 10:49 FXOpen wrote: Holy crap, so much thread.
♥ well it's pretty big information you gave, information that leaves a lot of room for speculation, and about a subject that a lot of people feel very strongly about.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
He literally joined TL today, probably to make that post.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
On January 09 2012 13:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can see them practicing WoL to get a feel for the slight differences between BW and SC2, and then possibly making the official switch when HotS comes out, since that will equalize the playing field.
And then they'll probably crush some skulls and crack some necks. Being an A-Teamer BW player is not something to take lightly.
Yeah, a whole bunch of players above MVPs level at average, which means some will be even better.
Mvp actually was quite the Broodwar talent, he was probably going to be very good, but he switched early
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
Maybe it gives room to dominate in other areas?
Im not saying its impossible, but it is very likely scenario that flash would degrade from "godly dominator" from just very good player if he switched to sc2. This all is just because sc2 is so much easier game that gives everyone miraculous opportunity to challenge rts-talents like flash.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
You talk like anyone has even come close to reaching the skillcap for sc2 yet, which is so untrue. Yes, I can understand the logic that starcraft 2 is simpler and easier to pick up and play, but I don't understand why so many people act like there isn't room for anyone to excel in the game.
mvp was such a great talent that I still remember comments about people actively avoiding watching his PL games.
On a more serious note, I wasn't around much during his A-team breakout, so I'm not going to talk out of my ass, but I can't remember anyone ever mentioning him in the context of a "major talent". He was more like the Clide of BW. That said, he was fairly young as well (still is).
On January 10 2012 05:33 ceaRshaf wrote: Can't wait, I have nerdchills even thinking "Bisu vs Nestea" brrrrr...i just peed myself.
That would not be even be close. Bisu is many levels above Nestea, and Nestea is even starting to falter against top SC2 pros.
SlayersFantasy and SlayersBisu?
Many levels above him in what? Starcraft II?
Get real dude, not yet.
Of course we are talking about SC2, my friend, as Nestea cannot even touch Bisu in BW. Guys like Bisu, Flash and Jaedong are almost certain to be better than Nestea in Starcraft 2 if they were to switch. Of course, they are not going to be instantly bonjwas and GSL champions the first week they switch, but they have the mechanics and speed and the fundamental gamesense. Give them a few months, and it is very likely that they could be far ahead of guys like Nestea.
Nestea is a good player, but his greatest strengths have been his ability to out-think and out-prepare his opponents. But these BW players are absolute monsters.
But our discussion is all speculation for now. Top BW players have no incentive yet to switch to a less-popular game (at least in Korea), and jeopardize their own careers by taking that risk. The best thing to do for now is to just wait and see.
On January 10 2012 04:52 ImbaTosS wrote: One factor- has anyone seen how well the BroodWar Proleague is doing this season? Answer is very well.
According to Milki's its doing like 1/3rd the viewership that it had in 2007 and isn't getting that many. I don't want bw to die but it seems all the people in korea who actually can find stuff out and I don't see why fxoboss would lie either and with milkis saying the same thing well doesn't look good.
I enjoy both bw/sc2 and looks like this might be the last of bw unless milkis/boss are just playing a joke which again I highly doubt.
lol 1/3 of 2007 .... like its bad? Latest proleague finals:
The fact that mass viewership was recorded by teenagers rather than people in their 20’s is evidence that Brood War remains popular in following generations since the first Proleague finals in 2003. The final set between Flash and Best reflected the most response from viewers, achieving a max viewership ratio of 2.514% (21% of males aged 16-19). In other words, 2 out of every 10 male Korean high school students watched the last set of the Proleague final.
Compare it to GSL when you have more foreigners in the audience than koreans (wtf?). BW seems to be more secure for station like OGN or big sponsor. Even if its 1/3 or 1/5(whateva) of its former glory.
You are talking proleague finals. I am talking proleague regular matches. Just saying I trust the words of people in korea like boss or milki's who reads the websites all the time.
Again they (milkis unless I am mis reading what he is saying) even said as well that other then finals, viewership isn't doing as good. So yeah I forgot to mention that my bad where the finals is a small period compared to the actual proleague season. I wouldn't be sad at all though if milki's was wrong and let alone boss was and bw ended up still going strong for a few more years but just doesn't seem the case. I want to see jaedong win 2 more championships minimum
Right, BW is definatley doing awful. Number #1 in 13-29 age bracket is terrible.
BW is still fantastic if you're targetting to a very specific demographic. It's not doing "awful" by any means, it's just dropping off really far in terms of ratings. you have to realize that those numbers are cherry picked, and it doesnt help the fact that ratings are still FAR from what they used to be (you'll start to get a sense of how big the scene actually was if you think of it that way).
BW is still far more popular than SC2 in Korea. the "calculated" move behind this is that the switch will also have the fan base follow them to SC2. It's a dangerous gamble.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
You talk like anyone has even come close to reaching the skillcap for sc2 yet, which is so untrue. Yes, I can understand the logic that starcraft 2 is simpler and easier to pick up and play, but I don't understand why so many people act like there isn't room for anyone to excel in the game.
Yea skillcap is not reached yet, hell, its not even probably reached in bw even. But it is quiet clear that atleast mechanically it is much lower. Mechanics are the one important thing which restricts many players from excelling in the game in brood war.
But however, even if the skillcap is not reached in sc2, sc2 is anyway so volatile right now compared to bw.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
Flash has godlike mechanics, that's undeniable, but the most important thing to consider is the strategic talent of this player. His great mechanics only allow him to actually perform these ridiculous strategies and insanely awesome tactics. I think we should focus on the fact that he is a genius strategist.
At the end of the day, this is what is most important.
As you said, sc2 is "easier". That means that the top players basically all have near-perfect macro and mechanics. So what's left in order to determine who's the best? It all comes down to strategy and tactics. I believe Sc2's macro is easier because Blizzard wants the player to focus on actual strategy.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
You talk like anyone has even come close to reaching the skillcap for sc2 yet, which is so untrue. Yes, I can understand the logic that starcraft 2 is simpler and easier to pick up and play, but I don't understand why so many people act like there isn't room for anyone to excel in the game.
Day[9] explained it pretty well in one of his videos, which I think was about game design:
Doesn't mean that in SC2 noobs can win tournaments and stuff, it just means that SC2 limits way too much the skill of the players.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
Flash has godlike mechanics, that's undeniable, but the most important thing to consider is the strategic talent of this player. His great mechanics only allow him to actually perform these ridiculous strategies and insanely awesome tactics. I think we should focus on the fact that he is a genius strategist.
At the end of the day, this is what is most important.
As you said, sc2 is "easier". That means that the top players basically all have near-perfect macro and mechanics. So what's left in order to determine who's the best? It all comes down to strategy and tactics. I believe Sc2's macro is easier because Blizzard wants the player to focus on actual strategy.
It is not clear how "genius strategists" he really is, but we do know that sc2 is way easier game and allows many players chance to take games off of everyone basicly. Maybe flash is not so great strategists as you think, and thus comes just decent player. But maybe im wrong and he really is "godly good" strategy-wise compared to other guys in sc2 scene let alone following a-teamers to switch.
It is just not so likely that we are gonna see flash dominate sc2 same way he does in brood war.
On January 09 2012 13:50 awwnuts07 wrote: Unless it's the BW top dogs, I can't really say I'm super interested.
Are you serious? These guys are on level or better than people like MVP or ForGG.
If you're not interested for that... Wow.
Many of the current SC2 pros had bright futures in BW but just never really committed or got a chance before leaving.
Really just speculation. The top players are still very young, much younger than the supposedly "up and comers" who switched to SC2. The best players all won OSLs/MSLs at a young age, Flash the youngest at 15, Jaedong winning OSL on first attempt, etc.
Flash was supposedly gonna be one of those guys who was never going to make it far, because he just cheesed all the time, or blow his chances at a gold by going 14CC every game and taking massive risks. Even so he got a gold at 15 and was unstoppable by 17.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
Flash has godlike mechanics, that's undeniable, but the most important thing to consider is the strategic talent of this player. His great mechanics only allow him to actually perform these ridiculous strategies and insanely awesome tactics. I think we should focus on the fact that he is a genius strategist.
At the end of the day, this is what is most important.
As you said, sc2 is "easier". That means that the top players basically all have near-perfect macro and mechanics. So what's left in order to determine who's the best? It all comes down to strategy and tactics. I believe Sc2's macro is easier because Blizzard wants the player to focus on actual strategy.
It is not clear how "genius strategists" he really is, but we do know that sc2 is way easier game and allows many players chance to take games off of everyone basicly. Maybe flash is not so great strategists as you think, and thus comes just decent player. But maybe im wrong and he really is "godly good" strategy-wise compared to other guys in sc2 scene let alone following a-teamers to switch.
It is just not so likely that we are gonna see flash dominate sc2 same way he does in brood war.
I do know , besides being one hell of a talented and brainy kid at broodwar he is a hero in real life when he jump in to the pool to save kal who was drowning at the swimming pool . With that I salute you LEE YOUNG HO !!!!!!
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
Flash has godlike mechanics, that's undeniable, but the most important thing to consider is the strategic talent of this player. His great mechanics only allow him to actually perform these ridiculous strategies and insanely awesome tactics. I think we should focus on the fact that he is a genius strategist.
At the end of the day, this is what is most important.
As you said, sc2 is "easier". That means that the top players basically all have near-perfect macro and mechanics. So what's left in order to determine who's the best? It all comes down to strategy and tactics. I believe Sc2's macro is easier because Blizzard wants the player to focus on actual strategy.
I hate how people act like SC2's skill cap has been reached. I have never seen a match where one player drastically outplayed the other and somehow lost. So maybe it is easier for top players to get outplayed, but the fact remains that you can outplay your opponent every game. No player's mechanics are perfect, I can watch MVP and call out mistakes all the time.
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
Flash has godlike mechanics, that's undeniable, but the most important thing to consider is the strategic talent of this player. His great mechanics only allow him to actually perform these ridiculous strategies and insanely awesome tactics. I think we should focus on the fact that he is a genius strategist.
At the end of the day, this is what is most important.
As you said, sc2 is "easier". That means that the top players basically all have near-perfect macro and mechanics. So what's left in order to determine who's the best? It all comes down to strategy and tactics. I believe Sc2's macro is easier because Blizzard wants the player to focus on actual strategy.
It is not clear how "genius strategists" he really is, but we do know that sc2 is way easier game and allows many players chance to take games off of everyone basicly. Maybe flash is not so great strategists as you think, and thus comes just decent player. But maybe im wrong and he really is "godly good" strategy-wise compared to other guys in sc2 scene let alone following a-teamers to switch.
It is just not so likely that we are gonna see flash dominate sc2 same way he does in brood war.
I do know , besides being one hell of a talented and brainy kid at broodwar he is a hero in real life when he jump in to the pool to save kal who was drowning at the swimming pool . With that I salute you LEE YOUNG HO !!!!!!
Although no great justification by any means, you just have to look at all the grand finals Flash has won and see him for who he is, a strategic genius.
No one else could beat the "would be bonjwa if it wasn't for Flash" Jaedong, 3:0 followed by 3:1 so easily in a grand final. The wins and builds were so ridiculous, it was as if Flash was just smurfing someone on Battle Net. Jaedong literally resorted to pure 4 pooling in the final moments of the consecutive grandfinal against Flash (after the 3:0 loss), and still lost 3:1.
You can't achieve this with mechanics, Flash achieved this with superior mind gaming and a completely new build for every game that no one has ever seen before. Each game followed so smoothly onto the next, you could tell his build was not only designed to win the game, it was designed to win his next 2 games as well!. and completely screwed with Jaedongs head. His thought process would have been something like "Flash is not stupid enough to CC first 3 times in a row, oh wait 14cc, ok no problem I will counter his mech army with hydras, oh wait +1 marines and goliaths with no medics wtf?! Valkyries? Who the fuck makes Valkyries?!!! Gargh!".
I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
People keep saying void ray phasing was patched, but was it? I looked on liquipedia and its nowhere in any patch notes. Maybe Im wrong, but I don't remember them ever taking it out?
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
I think a lot of ppl also believe that there is a lot in sc2 that ppl haven't discovered yet. There is a new build every month thats "unbeatable" ... month later it's just another strat in their arsenal (not obsolete but can be countered) The game has plenty of time to grow and change and with the expansions coming out... you won't have consistency for a while.
It's funny to see SC2 newcompers compare players like Flash to even other A-teamers
He makes other A-teamers look like scrubs.
Flash would make MVP look like Bitbybit (i.e the only way you could beat him would be to use a cheesy strategy). The scary part is - This isn't even that much of an exaggeration, Flash is that good.
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
People keep saying void ray phasing was patched, but was it? I looked on liquipedia and its nowhere in any patch notes. Maybe Im wrong, but I don't remember them ever taking it out?
Definitely patched, the way it worked was that damage was instantaneous upon switching to an enemy, thus increasing DPS. Now the first wave of damage comes much slower, so while you can still switch between enemies fast, your dps will be lower.
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
People keep saying void ray phasing was patched, but was it? I looked on liquipedia and its nowhere in any patch notes. Maybe Im wrong, but I don't remember them ever taking it out?
It was taken out of the game. If it wasn't, people like MC would abuse the shit of it for void ray all ins ;D
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
People keep saying void ray phasing was patched, but was it? I looked on liquipedia and its nowhere in any patch notes. Maybe Im wrong, but I don't remember them ever taking it out?
Definitely patched, the way it worked was that damage was instantaneous upon switching to an enemy, thus increasing DPS. Now the first wave of damage comes much slower, so while you can still switch between enemies fast, your dps will be lower.
There was also the viking flower.
Ohhh like if the charge was at 4 seconds (5 seconds to charge up) and you switched enemies, the charge would remain at 4 seconds? And now if its at 4 seconds and you switch, it goes back to 0 seconds? Never mind, I was thinking that you and others were talking about something else
On January 10 2012 01:32 TheResidentEvil wrote: It doesnt matter. SC2 is a different game and it will take awhile to acclimate. These pros arent going to come over to sc2 and dominate. Its not going to happen. Well, maybe if they all play terran they will
you will be proven wrong and people like me who know so will rub it in in the most annyoing way...
by bumping the elephant in the room article.
Do you feel the need to say the same thing every time this comes up?
It's like you feel threatened or something...
I feel the need to say the same thing when everyone else says the same thing and the situation also remains the same.
On January 10 2012 12:14 Seraphone wrote: I don't understand the skill cap argument. People were saying this 12 months ago and MVP now is a way, way better than MVP last January.
There's still massive room for improvement and room for a guy like Flash to be better than everyone. Hell MVP is the best player in the world and he isn't even that good vs Protoss. MMA is the second best player and he's genuinely bad vs Protoss.
People are confused about what people mean by skill cap. Its really just a bad word for mechanical skill differentiators. In BW there are a lot of tricks in the game which you can use, there aren't in SC2, and if there were, they would just be patched anyway (void ray phasing, archon toilet). There is no denying this, of course this doesn't mean that people won't get better, its just that with less mechanical skill differentiators, the games are less dynamic and therefore less interesting to the naked eye.
Don't you think that's sort of premature? After one year of Starcraft 1 people were still mostly one basing. Now obviously I would expect Sc2 to be much more developed than Sc1 was after a year given it built on Sc1's foundations. However, there's no way you can expect Sc2 to be as developed after one year than Sc1 after 13 years.
People didn't understand Muta stacking, hold lurkers after one year of Sc1 either.
I really think people writing of Sc2 after a year are insanely judgemental. The game's about a million times better now than during the GSL Open Seasons. Why not assume it will continue to improve exponentially?
On January 10 2012 12:22 SkimGuy wrote: It's funny to see SC2 newcompers compare players like Flash to even other A-teamers
He makes other A-teamers look like scrubs.
Flash would make MVP look like Bitbybit (i.e the only way you could beat him would be to use a cheesy strategy). The scary part is - This isn't even that much of an exaggeration, Flash is that good.
like when he lost 2 Classic and some other random mediocore T in straight up games?.
playing straight up vs Flash gives u a higher winrate then paying some chesse. cause for whatever reason he scouts exactly in that game for some cheese and finds it
On January 10 2012 11:16 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Those who are waiting to see Flash dominate sc2 are going to be let down. SC2 is alot easier game to play at the first place, so there is probably not gonna be any resemblance of dominance what Flash had in BW if he starts to play SC2. Sure he would be good, but so are everyone else.
"Good" Doesn't define Flash "Good" Is what you use for that one player who doesn't win any tournaments but never seems to drop a showmatch. IE "Liquid`Tyler is really good" "Good" Is what you say to someone who says "Howya feeling?" "Good" is the kind of player that doesn't have the decision making or quick thinking to become great, but has the mechanics to be "Good"
The word "Good" and Flash in the same sentance is nothing but an insult, and honestly, I dont think you have a flippin idea what would happen if he switched to sc2. The fact you even have the word "bonjwa" in your name and you doubt flash is pitaful.
Give me a break. Im not sure if you are serious or what.
But lets honestly think realistically this thing. Flash is godly good in bw because bw is very hard to manage well, and flash has managed to play it higher level than anyone else. But sc2 is so much easier game, which gives little room to dominate like flash does in bw.
Flash has godlike mechanics, that's undeniable, but the most important thing to consider is the strategic talent of this player. His great mechanics only allow him to actually perform these ridiculous strategies and insanely awesome tactics. I think we should focus on the fact that he is a genius strategist.
At the end of the day, this is what is most important.
As you said, sc2 is "easier". That means that the top players basically all have near-perfect macro and mechanics. So what's left in order to determine who's the best? It all comes down to strategy and tactics. I believe Sc2's macro is easier because Blizzard wants the player to focus on actual strategy.
It is not clear how "genius strategists" he really is, but we do know that sc2 is way easier game and allows many players chance to take games off of everyone basicly. Maybe flash is not so great strategists as you think, and thus comes just decent player. But maybe im wrong and he really is "godly good" strategy-wise compared to other guys in sc2 scene let alone following a-teamers to switch.
It is just not so likely that we are gonna see flash dominate sc2 same way he does in brood war.
I do know , besides being one hell of a talented and brainy kid at broodwar he is a hero in real life when he jump in to the pool to save kal who was drowning at the swimming pool . With that I salute you LEE YOUNG HO !!!!!!
On January 10 2012 12:28 Seraphone wrote: Don't you think that's sort of premature? After one year of Starcraft 1 people were still mostly one basing. Now obviously I would expect Sc2 to be much more developed than Sc1 was after a year given it built on Sc1's foundations. However, there's no way you can expect Sc2 to be as developed after one year than Sc1 after 13 years.
People didn't understand Muta stacking, hold lurkers after one year of Sc1 either.
I really think people writing of Sc2 after a year are insanely judgemental. The game's about a million times better now than during the GSL Open Seasons. Why not assume it will continue to improve exponentially?
Professional gaming didn't exist anywhere near on the level it does today when Starcraft was released. Starcraft 2 is being "figured out" incredibly quickly on the professional level just because of the massive amount of resources being thrown at it. As far as development of the game in comparison to Brood War, at what point would you actually consider it fair to make the comparison? If you're just talking about how long a game has been out, you could theoretically always make this argument until the end of time. At some point you're going to have to be able to sit down and put the two side by side. Granted, I don't believe that time is yet, but it's definitely not going to take anywhere near 13 years... or even 4.
On January 10 2012 12:28 Seraphone wrote: Don't you think that's sort of premature? After one year of Starcraft 1 people were still mostly one basing. Now obviously I would expect Sc2 to be much more developed than Sc1 was after a year given it built on Sc1's foundations. However, there's no way you can expect Sc2 to be as developed after one year than Sc1 after 13 years.
People didn't understand Muta stacking, hold lurkers after one year of Sc1 either.
I really think people writing of Sc2 after a year are insanely judgemental. The game's about a million times better now than during the GSL Open Seasons. Why not assume it will continue to improve exponentially?
Professional gaming didn't exist anywhere near on the level it does today when Starcraft was released. Starcraft 2 is being "figured out" incredibly quickly on the professional level just because of the massive amount of resources being thrown at it. As far as development of the game in comparison to Brood War, at what point would you actually consider it fair to make the comparison? If you're just talking about how long a game has been out, you could theoretically always make this argument until the end of time. At some point you're going to have to be able to sit down and put the two side by side. Granted, I don't believe that time is yet, but it's definitely not going to take anywhere near 13 years... or even 4.
I think (assuming they switch) that 1-2 years after Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and all the other top end A Teamers switch would be a fair time.
I definitely don't think you can talk about how it matches up to Brood War until after you've seen Flash play it.
People who say BW talent is wasted in SC2 are so wrong. Even the best SC2 players still make macro and micro mistakes. They have not even come close to perfect mechanics yet.
It's still not uncommon for most top players to 1a their entire army and have (for example) their infestors rush to their death.
On January 10 2012 12:37 MrF wrote: "I feel the need to say the same thing when everyone else says the same thing and the situation also remains the same." that seems redundant
This whole conversation is redundant in itself.
People need to stop jumping to conclusions period
It's all about perspective.
[Some of us have been following RTS developments for ages. U.I.'s are nothing more than the rules of the game as all players are governed by it. How they choose to manipulate it is another story. It's a level playing field.] <-- This chunk belongs in the XX design thread. *sigh* - -
On January 10 2012 12:49 Zzoram wrote: People who say BW talent is wasted in SC2 are so wrong. Even the best SC2 players still make macro and micro mistakes. They have not even come close to perfect mechanics yet.
It's still not uncommon for most top players to 1a their entire army and have (for example) their infestors rush to their death.
Some players certainly get lazy because they play right into the rulesets of the U.I. instead of finding better ways to manipulate it and find better posture.
I expect player's to focus more on their control groups in the months to come with HotS on the way. It will be crucial for players to make sure their units don't fall into bad formation, or else they will get fucked especially with the new units.
I haven't been able to find this anywhere else on the site so maybe someone can tell me in this thread. I've heard that the S-class players in BW make upwards of 100-200k per year in salaries, but I've never heard how much they make in tournament winnings per year? If someone could give me an approximation that'd be great
On January 10 2012 13:21 Muffinman53 wrote: I haven't been able to find this anywhere else on the site so maybe someone can tell me in this thread. I've heard that the S-class players in BW make upwards of 100-200k per year in salaries, but I've never heard how much they make in tournament winnings per year? If someone could give me an approximation that'd be great
Well there were 6 tournaments a year I think in BW (OSL/MSL not counting proleague). I believe the winner gets something like 25k-40k US dollars is what I believe I read somewhere.
So if you won 2 tournaments that would be 80k + whatever you make in salary. But yes the top tier bw players flash/jaedong and what not make 100k or so. I believe flash has a 5 year contract for 500k? Can't remember don't think it was that much a year but might be wrong.
On January 10 2012 13:21 Muffinman53 wrote: I haven't been able to find this anywhere else on the site so maybe someone can tell me in this thread. I've heard that the S-class players in BW make upwards of 100-200k per year in salaries, but I've never heard how much they make in tournament winnings per year? If someone could give me an approximation that'd be great
Well there were 6 tournaments a year I think in BW (OSL/MSL not counting proleague). I believe the winner gets something like 25k-40k US dollars is what I believe I read somewhere.
So if you won 2 tournaments that would be 80k + whatever you make in salary. But yes the top tier bw players flash/jaedong and what not make 100k or so. I believe flash has a 5 year contract for 500k? Can't remember don't think it was that much a year but might be wrong.
Ahh great, thank you so much! So even if each tournament was 40k, that is roughly the same as winning a GSL if I'm not mistaken? When you include the money the foreign scene throws at SC2 tournaments, it sounds like if BW players could lockin a similar salary in SC2 there is already the same amount of tournament winnings to be made. Someone can correct me if I'm missing something.
On January 10 2012 13:21 Muffinman53 wrote: I haven't been able to find this anywhere else on the site so maybe someone can tell me in this thread. I've heard that the S-class players in BW make upwards of 100-200k per year in salaries, but I've never heard how much they make in tournament winnings per year? If someone could give me an approximation that'd be great
Well there were 6 tournaments a year I think in BW (OSL/MSL not counting proleague). I believe the winner gets something like 25k-40k US dollars is what I believe I read somewhere.
So if you won 2 tournaments that would be 80k + whatever you make in salary. But yes the top tier bw players flash/jaedong and what not make 100k or so. I believe flash has a 5 year contract for 500k? Can't remember don't think it was that much a year but might be wrong.
Ahh great, thank you so much! So even if each tournament was 40k, that is roughly the same as winning a GSL if I'm not mistaken? When you include the money the foreign scene throws at SC2 tournaments, it sounds like if BW players could lockin a similar salary in SC2 there is already the same amount of tournament winnings to be made. Someone can correct me if I'm missing something.
If a mass switch happened then I imagine they would bring OGN, KESPA and all their current sponsors and fans with them.
Instead of just saying stuff. Look it up to double check if you aren't certain. It really isn't that hard to find. -_- You are close enough though.
We aren't left with very much anymore after MBC Game decided to shut down and players from three seperate teams were looking for new homes.
As a result we have a shortened PL format and the schedule isn't as fierce without the other network, teams and MBC tournament schedule. Things have definitely been toned down a bit, but the ratings are still fair. Nothing I wouldn't expect.
i kind of agree with Magma. That, if the foreigners don't raise their game for the upcoming Koreans in SC2, the game will lose interest amongst international fans. As much as I love Flash, bisu, Jaedong, Stork. Those guys dominating MLG, IEG, IPL, GSL. Whatever new tournaments around the world will diminish interest. It is a sad thing to witness for the future. I really hope the foreigners step up to compete against the great korean plaers that upcoming
On January 10 2012 13:34 chatuka wrote: i kind of agree with Magma. That, if the foreigners don't raise their game for the upcoming Koreans in SC2, the game will lose interest amongst international fans. As much as I love Flash, bisu, Jaedong, Stork. Those guys dominating MLG, IEG, IPL, GSL. Whatever new tournaments around the world will diminish interest. It is a sad thing to witness for the future. I really hope the foreigners step up to compete against the great korean plaers that upcoming
Foreign players are going to have to reside in Korea in order to keep up. I could see foreign teams adding something like that in contracts. You want to play for us you have to commit, reside and train in Korea.
We need foreign players to keep the foreign interest as strong as it is now.
If a mass switch happened then I imagine they would bring OGN, KESPA and all their current sponsors and fans with them.
Things don't happen that way. It won't be a massive switch and you have no control over the fans. I'd call it a transition period if anything and even then I don't see BW being dropped like that.
Definitely would help when KeSPA and Blizzard strike a deal to start promoting SC2 to build it up more in Korea; however, that deal is late as hell and not everyone is going to buy into it. Shit happens.
magna,
Players already have to do that in order to keep up so to speak. ;/
On January 10 2012 13:34 chatuka wrote: i kind of agree with Magma. That, if the foreigners don't raise their game for the upcoming Koreans in SC2, the game will lose interest amongst international fans. As much as I love Flash, bisu, Jaedong, Stork. Those guys dominating MLG, IEG, IPL, GSL. Whatever new tournaments around the world will diminish interest. It is a sad thing to witness for the future. I really hope the foreigners step up to compete against the great korean plaers that upcoming
Foreign players are going to have to reside in Korea in order to keep up. I could see foreign teams adding something like that in contracts. You want to play for us you have to commit, reside and train in Korea.
We need foreign players to keep the foreign interest as strong as it is now.
Or foreign players will all just end up playing for Korean teams.
If a mass switch happened then I imagine they would bring OGN, KESPA and all their current sponsors and fans with them.
Things don't happen that way. It won't be a massive switch and you have no control over the fans. I'd call it a transition period if anything and even then I don't see BW being dropped like that.
Definitely would help when KeSPA and Blizzard strike a deal to start promoting SC2 to build it up more in Korea; however, that deal is late as hell and not everyone is going to buy into it. Shit happens.
magna,
Players already have to do that in order to keep up so to speak. ;/
I think that's exactly how it will happen. KESPA will eventually announce that all Brood War leagues will now be Sc2.
If a mass switch happened then I imagine they would bring OGN, KESPA and all their current sponsors and fans with them.
Things don't happen that way. It won't be a massive switch and you have no control over the fans. I'd call it a transition period if anything and even then I don't see BW being dropped like that.
Definitely would help when KeSPA and Blizzard strike a deal to start promoting SC2 to build it up more in Korea; however, that deal is late as hell and not everyone is going to buy into it. Shit happens.
magna,
Players already have to do that in order to keep up so to speak. ;/
I think that's exactly how it will happen. KESPA will eventually announce that all Brood War leagues will now be Sc2.
On January 10 2012 13:33 StarStruck wrote: Instead of just saying stuff. Look it up to double check if you aren't certain. It really isn't that hard to find. -_- You are close enough though.
We aren't left with very much anymore after MBC Game decided to shut down and players from three seperate teams were looking for new homes.
As a result we have a shortened PL format and the schedule isn't as fierce without the other network, teams and MBC tournament schedule. Things have definitely been toned down a bit, but the ratings are still fair. Nothing I wouldn't expect.
All I can say is wait and watch.
I tried looking up the BW prize pools for OSL/MSL and couldn't find any up-to-date information. If you have a link to it that would be wonderful
On January 10 2012 13:33 StarStruck wrote: Instead of just saying stuff. Look it up to double check if you aren't certain. It really isn't that hard to find. -_- You are close enough though.
We aren't left with very much anymore after MBC Game decided to shut down and players from three seperate teams were looking for new homes.
As a result we have a shortened PL format and the schedule isn't as fierce without the other network, teams and MBC tournament schedule. Things have definitely been toned down a bit, but the ratings are still fair. Nothing I wouldn't expect.
All I can say is wait and watch.
I tried looking up the BW prize pools for OSL/MSL and couldn't find any up-to-date information. If you have a link to it that would be wonderful
that probably because no one really cares about prize pools of BW tournments really.
OSL is 40K for the winner I believe and uhhh... PL is completely unkown and no one asks about MSL
Makes it sound like a "Monday Night War" type fight for the right to say we broadcast the top quality Starcraft 2. If nothing else, if it comes into fruition it should be amazing to watch.
Makes it sound like a "Monday Night War" type fight for the right to say we broadcast the top quality Starcraft 2. If nothing else, if it comes into fruition it should be amazing to watch.
So long as all players/teams can play in both leagues I think this would be brilliant for Sc2. Competition breeds success. God knows Wrestling was better in the 90s when you had proper competition.
If you had OGN teams and GOM teams that would kind of suck but we'd still get to see them both play in foreign tournaments and at least we'd see the big BW players playing Sc2.
OGN and KeSPA's only concern at the moment is their market. The Korean market. This doesn't mean foreigners won't be given opportunities because they will as long as they are IN the country.
How the heck you think Starcraft got it's big push in the beginning anyway? The Foreigners. Giyom was a Legend. They WANT foreigners as they can be highly marketable on their looks and being foreigners alone.
Re-adjustments will be made.
As for his bit about the HD quality. Come on now. OGN's focus is on their cable network primarily as we've seen in the past. You cannot always base shit off of what you've seen from a WCG tournament. Like I said, re-adjustments can always be made.
Will they start catering more to live streaming networks? Give it time.
There's a lot more to it than just that if their policies are any indication. These so-called 'partnerships' we have between foreigner and Korean teams... I don't really see that flying really well with the KeSPA sponsored teams. With KeSPA you're either in or your out when you look back at their longwinded history with GOM and other properties. Then again, PJ and Lx did come over to SK to train for a bit in the Chinese deal, but they were never put into the spotlight like many people had hoped. KeSPA has brought tournaments and players to other events in the past as well. So not all of BoSs' concerns are valid. However, he is right about one thing as I mentioned earlier. There could be trouble for his SC2 branch. I don't think KeSPA really respects the current Korean SC2 teams. The financial backing was pretty bad and companies like FXO had to step-in to support them. I don't know how welcoming KeSPA will be to them. ._.
That's the biggest concern of the bunch if you are him. It's a pretty big one too.
On January 10 2012 14:53 therockmanxx wrote: How are the suppost to switched if there is only 1 league in korea? Arent they suppost to wait til kespa move to SC2??
On January 10 2012 13:33 StarStruck wrote: Instead of just saying stuff. Look it up to double check if you aren't certain. It really isn't that hard to find. -_- You are close enough though.
We aren't left with very much anymore after MBC Game decided to shut down and players from three seperate teams were looking for new homes.
As a result we have a shortened PL format and the schedule isn't as fierce without the other network, teams and MBC tournament schedule. Things have definitely been toned down a bit, but the ratings are still fair. Nothing I wouldn't expect.
All I can say is wait and watch.
I tried looking up the BW prize pools for OSL/MSL and couldn't find any up-to-date information. If you have a link to it that would be wonderful
quoting Konadora here:
Total prize pool: 108K (sorry not 180K, saw wrongly lol) Winner: 40k Runner-up: 20k Ro36 - 1st/2nd/3rd: $250/$150/$100 Ro16 - 8 players who didn't make it to Ro8: $2000 each Ro8 - 4 players who didn't make it to Ro4: $3000 each 3rd/4th place: $7000 each
On January 10 2012 14:53 therockmanxx wrote: How are the suppost to switched if there is only 1 league in korea? Arent they suppost to wait til kespa move to SC2??
On January 09 2012 13:40 Tazerenix wrote: I personally can't see how KESPA would fit into the current SC2 model in korea. I can imagine that Blizzard will step in and stop them from doing to the starcraft 2 scene what they did in BW.
Well, if the BW teams are practicing Starcraft 2, that's pretty much akin to KeSPA preparing for SC2 because all of those teams are part of KeSPA. BW teams run very differently from current SC2 teams in that the teams themselves aren't really individual entities in the same way SC2 teams are.
As far as Blizzard stepping in, as long as they're getting their payments they won't do a thing. The entire dispute with KeSPA was over money. Barring further conflict on that end, it's eat or be eaten...
OGN has a great working relationship with GOMTV's GSL division. The problem is not whether OGN can share the market with GOMTV, but rather what direction KeSPA wants to go in regards to SC2.
On January 10 2012 12:22 SkimGuy wrote: It's funny to see SC2 newcompers compare players like Flash to even other A-teamers
He makes other A-teamers look like scrubs.
Flash would make MVP look like Bitbybit (i.e the only way you could beat him would be to use a cheesy strategy). The scary part is - This isn't even that much of an exaggeration, Flash is that good.
like when he lost 2 Classic and some other random mediocore T in straight up games?.
playing straight up vs Flash gives u a higher winrate then paying some chesse. cause for whatever reason he scouts exactly in that game for some cheese and finds it
Wasn't that right around Flash's surgery? He was probably playing with one hand lol.
On January 10 2012 13:21 Muffinman53 wrote: I haven't been able to find this anywhere else on the site so maybe someone can tell me in this thread. I've heard that the S-class players in BW make upwards of 100-200k per year in salaries, but I've never heard how much they make in tournament winnings per year? If someone could give me an approximation that'd be great
Well there were 6 tournaments a year I think in BW (OSL/MSL not counting proleague). I believe the winner gets something like 25k-40k US dollars is what I believe I read somewhere.
So if you won 2 tournaments that would be 80k + whatever you make in salary. But yes the top tier bw players flash/jaedong and what not make 100k or so. I believe flash has a 5 year contract for 500k? Can't remember don't think it was that much a year but might be wrong.
Ahh great, thank you so much! So even if each tournament was 40k, that is roughly the same as winning a GSL if I'm not mistaken? When you include the money the foreign scene throws at SC2 tournaments, it sounds like if BW players could lockin a similar salary in SC2 there is already the same amount of tournament winnings to be made. Someone can correct me if I'm missing something.
Flash said himself that he makes roughly $350k on a good year (that includes both salary and a fair amount of tournament wins. His salary is a lot higher than $100 k though.
Q: What’s your salary? -The income includes prize money from the leagues. On the low side, it’s about 250000000 won, and it can get up to 400000000 won on the high side. Last year I got about 300000000 won.
You also have to remember that there are a lot of players with high salaries, and everyone can’t win GSL.
On January 10 2012 13:34 chatuka wrote: i kind of agree with Magma. That, if the foreigners don't raise their game for the upcoming Koreans in SC2, the game will lose interest amongst international fans. As much as I love Flash, bisu, Jaedong, Stork. Those guys dominating MLG, IEG, IPL, GSL. Whatever new tournaments around the world will diminish interest. It is a sad thing to witness for the future. I really hope the foreigners step up to compete against the great korean plaers that upcoming
What you and most people seem to forget is, that the players switching are apparently practicing SC2 for some time now. that means no player who is currently active in PL will switch. that means no flash, bisu, stork, jaedong, whatever... Furthermore we can probably eliminate players in the army ACE or not.
On January 10 2012 13:33 StarStruck wrote: Instead of just saying stuff. Look it up to double check if you aren't certain. It really isn't that hard to find. -_- You are close enough though.
We aren't left with very much anymore after MBC Game decided to shut down and players from three seperate teams were looking for new homes.
As a result we have a shortened PL format and the schedule isn't as fierce without the other network, teams and MBC tournament schedule. Things have definitely been toned down a bit, but the ratings are still fair. Nothing I wouldn't expect.
All I can say is wait and watch.
I tried looking up the BW prize pools for OSL/MSL and couldn't find any up-to-date information. If you have a link to it that would be wonderful
that probably because no one really cares about prize pools of BW tournments really.
[...]
I might wanna disagree and dare to say that at least the players care about the prizepool. (but nice try making bw sound like something really elite where nobody cares about money^^)
On January 10 2012 13:33 StarStruck wrote: Instead of just saying stuff. Look it up to double check if you aren't certain. It really isn't that hard to find. -_- You are close enough though.
We aren't left with very much anymore after MBC Game decided to shut down and players from three seperate teams were looking for new homes.
As a result we have a shortened PL format and the schedule isn't as fierce without the other network, teams and MBC tournament schedule. Things have definitely been toned down a bit, but the ratings are still fair. Nothing I wouldn't expect.
All I can say is wait and watch.
I tried looking up the BW prize pools for OSL/MSL and couldn't find any up-to-date information. If you have a link to it that would be wonderful
that probably because no one really cares about prize pools of BW tournments really.
[...]
I might wanna disagree and dare to say that at least the players care about the prizepool. (but nice try making bw sound like something really elite where nobody cares about money^^)
Of course the players care about the prize pool, but the amount of $ coming from tournaments is very little compared to the combined amount of money coming from salaries. The fact that every player have a salary makes BW professional, it has nothing to do with whether they care about prize money or not (which they do).
On January 10 2012 13:33 StarStruck wrote: Instead of just saying stuff. Look it up to double check if you aren't certain. It really isn't that hard to find. -_- You are close enough though.
We aren't left with very much anymore after MBC Game decided to shut down and players from three seperate teams were looking for new homes.
As a result we have a shortened PL format and the schedule isn't as fierce without the other network, teams and MBC tournament schedule. Things have definitely been toned down a bit, but the ratings are still fair. Nothing I wouldn't expect.
All I can say is wait and watch.
I tried looking up the BW prize pools for OSL/MSL and couldn't find any up-to-date information. If you have a link to it that would be wonderful
that probably because no one really cares about prize pools of BW tournments really.
[...]
I might wanna disagree and dare to say that at least the players care about the prizepool. (but nice try making bw sound like something really elite where nobody cares about money^^)
We agree to disagree , the thing is in broodwar , it doesn't matter how much the prize money is , what matter's is , The prestige of winning a OSL that is important . Showing the world that you are the best individual in starcraft broodwar is the epitome of every bw pro gamer dream . Ask jangbi if he cared about the $$$ more than kissing the trophy and the prestige of winning the osl and he will tell you that nothing ever beats winning a damn osl that's for sure .
Than again , you pick the wrong guy to labelling as some kind of a elitist propaganda commissar , in fact blind rawr he is quite neutral to begin with compared to other bw forumer's but than again . If you don't experience brood war for your self , how can we agree about thing's or have a better perspective in what's happening in our side ? .
I'd like all brood war playes to swap to sc2 :D When enough players have swapped, the community just falls apart and recuire the rest to either quit playing or swapping aswell. There is no prestige in winning an OSL if nobody plays the game.
On January 10 2012 13:33 StarStruck wrote: Instead of just saying stuff. Look it up to double check if you aren't certain. It really isn't that hard to find. -_- You are close enough though.
We aren't left with very much anymore after MBC Game decided to shut down and players from three seperate teams were looking for new homes.
As a result we have a shortened PL format and the schedule isn't as fierce without the other network, teams and MBC tournament schedule. Things have definitely been toned down a bit, but the ratings are still fair. Nothing I wouldn't expect.
All I can say is wait and watch.
I tried looking up the BW prize pools for OSL/MSL and couldn't find any up-to-date information. If you have a link to it that would be wonderful
that probably because no one really cares about prize pools of BW tournments really.
[...]
I might wanna disagree and dare to say that at least the players care about the prizepool. (but nice try making bw sound like something really elite where nobody cares about money^^)
players get good salaries and free living(only the latter for b-teamers) in team dorms, to them money is never the issue to perform which is why I say that.
So all the players get the same salaries? Or do the players that WIN get paid more... Of course, prestige is nice but I think it would be naive to say that money doesn't play a role
On January 10 2012 23:24 Fus wrote: I'd like all brood war playes to swap to sc2 :D When enough players have swapped, the community just falls apart and recuire the rest to either quit playing or swapping aswell. There is no prestige in winning an OSL if nobody plays the game.
So all the players get the same salaries? Or do the players that WIN get paid more... Of course, prestige is nice but I think it would be naive to say that money doesn't play a role
You win big matches for your team , you win an individual league , Sponsors are happy that you are promoting their name with your wins . Sponsor's decide to double your salary , Not a win win situation eh ?
On January 10 2012 23:24 Fus wrote: I'd like all brood war playes to swap to sc2 :D When enough players have swapped, the community just falls apart and recuire the rest to either quit playing or swapping aswell. There is no prestige in winning an OSL if nobody plays the game.
In that case, I assume you look forward to when all SC2 players switch to LoL (StarTale has already created a LoL team)? SC2 had a good run, but all good things must come to an end, right?
I want BW players to stick with brood war for aslong as they can, no point in switching until the community dies out. and i'm not saying its 100% correct that they ever will. but you guys must notice how few people are still sticking with BW. And Flash and jaedong switching to sc2 would be devestating. i mean. no money for other players and foreigners are definately out xP
On January 10 2012 23:24 Fus wrote: I'd like all brood war playes to swap to sc2 :D When enough players have swapped, the community just falls apart and recuire the rest to either quit playing or swapping aswell. There is no prestige in winning an OSL if nobody plays the game.
In that case, I assume you look forward to when all SC2 players switch to LoL (StarTale has already created a LoL team)? SC2 had a good run, but all good things must come to an end, right?
lol.. SC2 is a very young game. and even tho people are saying MVP plays good, he can play better right? I mean the potential of sc2 havent been shown at all. in maybe a year (less or more) good players will be separated from the flock and we as viewers get to see how sc2 can be played.
I'm gonna blame team 8's terrible performance on this. I mean they're basically run by KeSPA and if KeSPA was thinking about switching they'd be one of the first teams to know about it so they'd be one of the first to start practicing while letting their BW play slip. Or maybe I just need a scapegoat.
On January 10 2012 23:54 fabiano wrote: Do SC2 teams can afford to pay salaries to the tyrant, god, the revolutionist, the terrorist and the dynotoss anyway?
I dont think that chicken wings are too profitable to enable a team to pay a salary of US$ 200 000 for a player.
Keep dreaming though, BW is still rocking hard!
I guess a lot depends on the route KeSPA is going. Will they stick with BW or switch to SC2. When they switch, SC2 should get a lot more attention by the audience and therefore become more attractive for sponsors. IF this happens korean teams could pay better then they do now.
And bw players probably didn't join to teams like IM or Prime, and not EG like many stupid trolls writing here. New teams with old sponsors should come like SK, KT or Samsung example.
On January 10 2012 23:55 xBillehx wrote: I'm gonna blame team 8's terrible performance on this. I mean they're basically run by KeSPA and if KeSPA was thinking about switching they'd be one of the first teams to know about it so they'd be one of the first to start practicing while letting their BW play slip. Or maybe I just need a scapegoat.
Every team is KeSPA. ._. In other words, it includes every sponsor so that is a mute point as every team could make that excuse. Not to say every household and training schedule is exactly the same. That and the Dream Team is very, very small. Yes, GTR is right. They don't have much of a coaching staff, so they're left to think amongst themselves.
The dream team has just been stinking.
BW salaries are pretty darn good still compared to what some of the Korean SC2 players are making if you have decent showings.
On January 10 2012 23:54 fabiano wrote: Do SC2 teams can afford to pay salaries to the tyrant, god, the revolutionist, the terrorist and the dynotoss anyway?
I dont think that chicken wings are too profitable to enable a team to pay a salary of US$ 200 000 for a player.
Keep dreaming though, BW is still rocking hard!
Looks like Hwaseung Oz couldn't quite afford to pay Jaedong's salary either.
On January 10 2012 23:24 Fus wrote: I'd like all brood war playes to swap to sc2 :D When enough players have swapped, the community just falls apart and recuire the rest to either quit playing or swapping aswell. There is no prestige in winning an OSL if nobody plays the game.
In that case, I assume you look forward to when all SC2 players switch to LoL (StarTale has already created a LoL team)? SC2 had a good run, but all good things must come to an end, right?
lol, switch to LoL.
you would think a game running for Esport title with 10 times more active player than starcraft would have relatively more impressive viewership and actually have organization backing their esport scenes, instead of letting riot paying for everything out of their pocket.
On January 10 2012 23:24 Fus wrote: I'd like all brood war playes to swap to sc2 :D When enough players have swapped, the community just falls apart and recuire the rest to either quit playing or swapping aswell. There is no prestige in winning an OSL if nobody plays the game.
In that case, I assume you look forward to when all SC2 players switch to LoL (StarTale has already created a LoL team)? SC2 had a good run, but all good things must come to an end, right?
lol, switch to LoL.
you would think a game running for Esport title with 10 times more active player than starcraft would have relatively more impressive viewership and actually have organization backing their esport scenes, instead of letting riot paying for everything out of their pocket.
Didn't the simultaneous stream viewers for LoL at Dreamhack Summer top out at over 200k?
On January 10 2012 23:44 zul wrote: Jaedong to IM and I`m the happiest nerdling on earth.
IMJaedong sounds terrible... honestly just about all team-player combinations sounds terrrible for Flash/Jaedong.
Edit: Just imagine any of them joining Prime, LOL what a fail that would be xD FlashPrime & JaedongPrime ftw >.<
I like the sound of oGs_Flash
Oh, but making these names up is fun :0
coL.MVPFlash sounds pretty good, as does FXOJaedong. IMStork. oGsBisu. SlayerSFantasy (obligatory). FXOBest (heh). NsHS_Hydra. TSL_Zero. Startale_Effort. ZenexStats. BabyPrime.WE. Mouz.Stats. EGJangBi for an even more tongue-tying name than EGJYP. We also need a young up and coming zerg to name himself Jaedong, so we can call him Faedong.
With any amount of bad luck, they'll just change their names like forGG and cause mass confusion.
On January 10 2012 23:24 Fus wrote: I'd like all brood war playes to swap to sc2 :D When enough players have swapped, the community just falls apart and recuire the rest to either quit playing or swapping aswell. There is no prestige in winning an OSL if nobody plays the game.
In that case, I assume you look forward to when all SC2 players switch to LoL (StarTale has already created a LoL team)? SC2 had a good run, but all good things must come to an end, right?
lol, switch to LoL.
you would think a game running for Esport title with 10 times more active player than starcraft would have relatively more impressive viewership and actually have organization backing their esport scenes, instead of letting riot paying for everything out of their pocket.
Didn't the simultaneous stream viewers for LoL at Dreamhack Summer top out at over 200k?
so? dota had 1.3 million concurrent viewers, sc2 first season had 700k, but we all know none of those numbers are sustainable in the long run. Unless they can somehow get into the China, and currently its hard with censors and I imagine there are limitation to ads there as well
On January 10 2012 23:44 zul wrote: Jaedong to IM and I`m the happiest nerdling on earth.
IMJaedong sounds terrible... honestly just about all team-player combinations sounds terrrible for Flash/Jaedong.
Edit: Just imagine any of them joining Prime, LOL what a fail that would be xD FlashPrime & JaedongPrime ftw >.<
I like the sound of oGs_Flash
Oh, but making these names up is fun :0
coL.MVPFlash sounds pretty good, as does FXOJaedong. IMStork. oGsBisu. SlayerSFantasy (obligatory). FXOBest (heh). NsHs_Hydra. TSL_Zero. Startale_Effort. ZenexStats. BabyPrime.WE. Mouz.Stats. EGJangBi for an even more tongue-tying name than EGJYP. We also need a young up and coming zerg to name himself Jaedong, so we can call him Faedong.
With any amount of bad luck, they'll just change their names like forGG and cause mass confusion.
On January 10 2012 23:24 Fus wrote: I'd like all brood war playes to swap to sc2 :D When enough players have swapped, the community just falls apart and recuire the rest to either quit playing or swapping aswell. There is no prestige in winning an OSL if nobody plays the game.
In that case, I assume you look forward to when all SC2 players switch to LoL (StarTale has already created a LoL team)? SC2 had a good run, but all good things must come to an end, right?
lol, switch to LoL.
you would think a game running for Esport title with 10 times more active player than starcraft would have relatively more impressive viewership and actually have organization backing their esport scenes, instead of letting riot paying for everything out of their pocket.
Didn't the simultaneous stream viewers for LoL at Dreamhack Summer top out at over 200k?
LoL beats pretty much everything else (DotA 2 may beat it once it gets released) in terms of online viewers right now, because Riot wants people to watch the tournaments and LoL has the biggest playerbase out of all the competitive games right now so more potential viewers.
On January 10 2012 23:54 fabiano wrote: Do SC2 teams can afford to pay salaries to the tyrant, god, the revolutionist, the terrorist and the dynotoss anyway?
I dont think that chicken wings are too profitable to enable a team to pay a salary of US$ 200 000 for a player.
Keep dreaming though, BW is still rocking hard!
Looks like Hwaseung Oz couldn't quite afford to pay Jaedong's salary either.
Except Oz didn't disband because they couldn't pay their players, least of all Jaedong, whom they gave a RAISE a while back.
On January 10 2012 23:44 zul wrote: Jaedong to IM and I`m the happiest nerdling on earth.
IMJaedong sounds terrible... honestly just about all team-player combinations sounds terrrible for Flash/Jaedong.
Edit: Just imagine any of them joining Prime, LOL what a fail that would be xD FlashPrime & JaedongPrime ftw >.<
I like the sound of oGs_Flash
If Flash & JD switch (BUT THEY WONT), the only truthful full names would be MVP_Flash and MVP_Jaedong
Imagine DRG's zvt if he learned from those 2 O_O
Who's DRG? Like honestly he'd become a nobody if they switched over lol.
Even if all the big players swapped there would be some Sc2 players who can still compete. Players like Leenock and Jjakji were too young to be professional Brood War players anyway.
You guys do know that if the Brood War pros switch, more than likely the sponsors will switch as well, right?
Companies like KT, CJ, SKT1, Samsung, and Stars have a lot more money than any of the SC2 teams. It's more likely KT and SKT1 just buy Incredible Miracle or Startale.
lol I seriously laugh at people saying eg.Flash and shit. SC2 sponsers are pitch poor compared to BW. So hiring Jadeong Flash and other top players will cost minimum 80-250k for each player. I dont think any sponser is able to do that...
On January 09 2012 13:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can see them practicing WoL to get a feel for the slight differences between BW and SC2, and then possibly making the official switch when HotS comes out, since that will equalize the playing field.
That would be really smart. If they don't know WoL too well, they will be more likely to mess with experimental strategies involving the new HotS units. They obviously will regardless, but if there is less knowledge in their head involving every possible WoL composition tried, they will figure out the new stuff much faster.
On January 11 2012 08:07 jidolboy wrote: lol I seriously laugh at people saying eg.Flash and shit. SC2 sponsers are pitch poor compared to BW. So hiring Jadeong Flash and other top players will cost minimum 80-250k for each player. I dont think any sponser is able to do that...
Lol, right. Because people are serious about that being a legitimate possibility.
Huk cost probably 100k $, but like @Fionn said about the money, so it's never happened.
On January 11 2012 07:54 Fionn wrote: You guys do know that if the Brood War pros switch, more than likely the sponsors will switch as well, right?
Companies like KT, CJ, SKT1, Samsung, and Stars have a lot more money than any of the SC2 teams. It's more likely KT and SKT1 just buy Incredible Miracle or Startale.
On January 11 2012 07:54 Fionn wrote: You guys do know that if the Brood War pros switch, more than likely the sponsors will switch as well, right?
Companies like KT, CJ, SKT1, Samsung, and Stars have a lot more money than any of the SC2 teams. It's more likely KT and SKT1 just buy Incredible Miracle or Startale.
EG may have comparable amounts, but yeah sc2 korean teams are dirt poor compared to their bw conterparts.
GOM already has a good hold on the SC2 Korean community. I think the best case scenario in this situation is that OGN offers GOM a little bit of competition, but GOM keeps its clientele happy by offering more for less.
Hell-- they're sort of trying to do that anyway (for the good of eSports!)
I don't think there is any way that the scenes can co-exist simultaneously like this for much longer. At some point like this thread has suggested the teams and sponsors are going to switch over and it will be like WC3 where there are random big tournies still for those on top and those who don't want to leave but the money is gonna be funneled to sc2.
On January 11 2012 07:54 Fionn wrote: You guys do know that if the Brood War pros switch, more than likely the sponsors will switch as well, right?
Companies like KT, CJ, SKT1, Samsung, and Stars have a lot more money than any of the SC2 teams. It's more likely KT and SKT1 just buy Incredible Miracle or Startale.
EG may have comparable amounts, but yeah sc2 korean teams are dirt poor compared to their bw conterparts.
FXO is a pretty big company too, and TSL has been poaching since it's inception (FruitDealer)
I reckon KT, CJ, SKT1, Samsung and whatever may just switch as a team, like the whole roster. It'd be way easier then individuals leaving until the broodwar scene gets worse and worse with less and less good players... and less painful to see.
On January 11 2012 08:25 Trufflez wrote: I reckon KT, CJ, SKT1, Samsung and whatever may just switch as a team, like the whole roster. It'd be way easier then individuals leaving until the broodwar scene gets worse and worse with less and less good players... and less painful to see.
I think there will be a fair bit of poaching regardless.
On January 11 2012 09:06 shaftofpleasure wrote: You guys seem pretty sure that they will switch to SC2 huh .. LOL
well it alreayd came out that the pros s were practicing both games as they didnt know what was going to happen before last league? if kespa wants to they will make them swtich.
Also people in the know like FXOboss have been told by many people that especially b and even a teamers have been playing SC2, and also last tiem this come out, we had a number of koreans bw players messasging players over battle net.
Why woudlnt we think they are slowly going to? Going to happen and more and more will swtich. Cant see flasha nd all going over till sc is ifnally finished if they even do then, they might just retire. But a lot will over the next year.
Don't they lose their progamer license if they switch? I for one would welcome some good Protoss A-Teamers, the lack of good players within the Code S Protoss is disturbing.
On January 10 2012 23:44 zul wrote: Jaedong to IM and I`m the happiest nerdling on earth.
IMJaedong sounds terrible... honestly just about all team-player combinations sounds terrrible for Flash/Jaedong.
Edit: Just imagine any of them joining Prime, LOL what a fail that would be xD FlashPrime & JaedongPrime ftw >.<
I like the sound of oGs_Flash
If Flash & JD switch (BUT THEY WONT), the only truthful full names would be MVP_Flash and MVP_Jaedong
Imagine DRG's zvt if he learned from those 2 O_O
Who's DRG? Like honestly he'd become a nobody if they switched over lol.
Well that depends on the practise tbh. If he would be somehow in the same theme as flash/jaedong i say he got a fairly good chance to climb out of "nobdy status".
On January 11 2012 07:54 Fionn wrote: You guys do know that if the Brood War pros switch, more than likely the sponsors will switch as well, right?
Companies like KT, CJ, SKT1, Samsung, and Stars have a lot more money than any of the SC2 teams. It's more likely KT and SKT1 just buy Incredible Miracle or Startale.
The chances of those sponsors just increasing their spending hugely is pretty low though. Maybe if there were serious budget cuts for the BW teams? But I don't think any big cuts were rumoured.
On January 10 2012 23:44 zul wrote: Jaedong to IM and I`m the happiest nerdling on earth.
IMJaedong sounds terrible... honestly just about all team-player combinations sounds terrrible for Flash/Jaedong.
Edit: Just imagine any of them joining Prime, LOL what a fail that would be xD FlashPrime & JaedongPrime ftw >.<
I like the sound of oGs_Flash
If Flash & JD switch (BUT THEY WONT), the only truthful full names would be MVP_Flash and MVP_Jaedong
Imagine DRG's zvt if he learned from those 2 O_O
Who's DRG? Like honestly he'd become a nobody if they switched over lol.
Well that depends on the practise tbh. If he would be somehow in the same theme as flash/jaedong i say he got a fairly good chance to climb out of "nobdy status".
That's about where he will be stuck though. In the area where people know who you are but never expect you to realistically ever win vs the actual good people.
On January 11 2012 19:40 dib wrote: LOL @ people thinking they won't switch.....LOL
I don't think many people believe people will stay as BW pros forever, we're just doubting that Top A-class / S-class players will be switching anytime soon.
On January 11 2012 20:04 VoO wrote: Don't they lose their progamer license if they switch? I for one would welcome some good Protoss A-Teamers, the lack of good players within the Code S Protoss is disturbing.
According to the rumours KESPA is planning to give its blessing to an SC2 league. I assume they have a deal in the works with GOM and / or Blizzard.
We have no idea if they will be competing in the GSL or some other new Starleague.
I hope GOM and KESPA make peace with each other. I would be very sad if we don't get to see how these "A-team players" fare against the likes of MVP and Nestea.
I think people in the SC2 community don't realize how big LoL is quite becoming to be. The game won't do anything bad to SC2, but the number of people watching this game is like enormous. SC2 is tiny in Korea still. :/
I think people in the SC2 community don't realize how big LoL is quite becoming to be. The game won't do anything bad to SC2, but the number of people watching this game is like enormous. SC2 is tiny in Korea still. :/
given its player base, not that impressive really. Their tourney beside the first one ranges from 100k-150k, and with a 15 million active player base, that's less than 1%
If they can get into China, then that may be a different story to tell
i personally dnt think there is that much more incentive to broadcast sc2 for OGN, the work and negotiation that goes into it wld be enormous because GOM wldnt be too happy to give up their exculsive rights and BW looks like its starting up again in Korea too and there is LOL league coming up so OGN rly wldn't want to open another SC2 league and go through all the trouble. so I strongly disagree with Josh here.
What's happening with SC2 in Korea that has any of you thinking this is happening? No sudden growth in playerbase or interest evident so why the fuck would they drop the game with a following and completely switch to a new one and risk it not picking up. What would the logic be here. Not to mention putting tons of gamers careers in the line to fail if it doesn't work, i'm sure they would be happy with that.
As well as A/S class players being happy to drop years of dedication to a game on a whim. Think about their mindset as people who have been competing for so long in BW not as 'omg i want x to switch'.. nodody would want to be forced to switch. When Flash talked about possibly switching in many years times it was being talked about as THEIR choice (him and Jaedong). If and when they want to.
On January 13 2012 03:52 infinity2k9 wrote: What's happening with SC2 in Korea that has any of you thinking this is happening? No sudden growth in playerbase or interest evident so why the fuck would they drop the game with a following and completely switch to a new one and risk it not picking up. What would the logic be here. Not to mention putting tons of gamers careers in the line to fail if it doesn't work, i'm sure they would be happy with that.
As well as A/S class players being happy to drop years of dedication to a game on a whim. Think about their mindset as people who have been competing for so long in BW not as 'omg i want x to switch'.. nodody would want to be forced to switch. When Flash talked about possibly switching in many years times it was being talked about as THEIR choice (him and Jaedong). If and when they want to.
There does seem to be a growing notion that the foreign scene is "easy money" in SC2 for Koreans. Not Flash or Jaedong, they are paid consistently and are at a skill/popularity level that would make a switch....weird? But there are plenty of MC's and MVP's or even better that are not paid well, are not known, and do not have the same confidence in the future that Flash did when he started. They could be talking about "known" players that you see pop up relatively commonly in the line-up, but are not exploding into the scene. These players may be looking to the foreign scene for success.
I take this with a grain of salt, but not all BW players are getting the same ROI as the Dongs and Flashes. Just wait and see, although either way I think they will not explode onto the scene, months of practice + probably a few tries before they get what they are after. Not Auto-domination.
In my opinion, I dont think teams from BW except samsung are gonna follow suit to sc2. I have no knowledge about this coz I dont religiously follow sc2 but if it is true that sc2 isnt doing relatively well in Korea, why would they want to sponsor a team for that game. Sc2 is more popular outside korea so why would companies like KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, etc. ,who are based for the most part in Korea only, want to sponsor an sc2 team when they wont gain anything, specially advertising, from it. The possibility of them sponsoring a LoL (I heard LoL is getting big in Korea) team is bigger than them sponsoring an SC2 team, imo. Except for samsung, obviously because they are a global brand.
I think people in the SC2 community don't realize how big LoL is quite becoming to be. The game won't do anything bad to SC2, but the number of people watching this game is like enormous. SC2 is tiny in Korea still. :/
given its player base, not that impressive really. Their tourney beside the first one ranges from 100k-150k, and with a 15 million active player base, that's less than 1%
If they can get into China, then that may be a different story to tell
I'm in China right now and I can tell you that LoL is equal to DotA in general popularity in most provinces, and completely dominating it in other provinces. Now consider that China is the absolute mecca of DotA.
I haven't seen SC2 played in a single net cafe so far. ~30% play WoW, ~15% play LoL, ~10% play DotA, and the rest play random online games, WC3 or watch videos.
Anyway, I hope the best players don't swap over to SC2, or at least that they don't switch over until SC2 becomes as entertaining as BW to watch.
On January 20 2012 23:17 iLoveKT wrote: In my opinion, I dont think teams from BW except samsung are gonna follow suit to sc2. I have no knowledge about this coz I dont religiously follow sc2 but if it is true that sc2 isnt doing relatively well in Korea, why would they want to sponsor a team for that game. Sc2 is more popular outside korea so why would companies like KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, etc. ,who are based for the most part in Korea only, want to sponsor an sc2 team when they wont gain anything, specially advertising, from it. The possibility of them sponsoring a LoL (I heard LoL is getting big in Korea) team is bigger than them sponsoring an SC2 team, imo. Except for samsung, obviously because they are a global brand.
But that's a reasonable short term view of things. As SC2 grows, the skill level, player base, fandom and everything else will grow with it until eventually there is a whole new generation who grew up with SC2. SC2 is still in its infancy, it's first (of two) expansions is not too far away, and it is the RTS of the future for the time being. In the short term (based on the hints that we are getting), there is going to be an influx of BW players moving over, and a new Korean SC2 league in place. This is going to change the whole landscape for Korean SC2, and will mean that the Korean companies you quoted will have every reason to sponsor an SC2 team. I've no idea what the time frame would be on this, as I'm no insider, but it's going to happen.
And the more top level players the SC2 scene, the better the quality of games we are going to see. We're already seeing more and more amazing games, and the overall level of those at the top in SC2 is continuing to grow and it's a great thing.
I for one am very excited about this and can't wait for the full details to come out.
On January 20 2012 23:17 iLoveKT wrote: In my opinion, I dont think teams from BW except samsung are gonna follow suit to sc2. I have no knowledge about this coz I dont religiously follow sc2 but if it is true that sc2 isnt doing relatively well in Korea, why would they want to sponsor a team for that game. Sc2 is more popular outside korea so why would companies like KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, etc. ,who are based for the most part in Korea only, want to sponsor an sc2 team when they wont gain anything, specially advertising, from it. The possibility of them sponsoring a LoL (I heard LoL is getting big in Korea) team is bigger than them sponsoring an SC2 team, imo. Except for samsung, obviously because they are a global brand.
But that's a reasonable short term view of things. As SC2 grows, the skill level, player base, fandom and everything else will grow with it until eventually there is a whole new generation who grew up with SC2. SC2 is still in its infancy, it's first (of two) expansions is not too far away, and it is the RTS of the future for the time being. In the short term (based on the hints that we are getting), there is going to be an influx of BW players moving over, and a new Korean SC2 league in place. This is going to change the whole landscape for Korean SC2, and will mean that the Korean companies you quoted will have every reason to sponsor an SC2 team. I've no idea what the time frame would be on this, as I'm no insider, but it's going to happen.
And the more top level players the SC2 scene, the better the quality of games we are going to see. We're already seeing more and more amazing games, and the overall level of those at the top in SC2 is continuing to grow and it's a great thing.
I for one am very excited about this and can't wait for the full details to come out.
Sc2 receiving great strategist like Boxer , Mechanical genius Nada , God Of War July from the bw pool of talents could not make sc2 interesting as brood war did . How can my bonjwa Flash , Jaedong,Stork and Bisu is going to do anything more to the game when the game has it's own limitation to what the unit's can do ? . I do not doubt it may be the future game of rts , but that doesn't mean it will be , looking at how thing's are going maybe more casual oriented games like Dota 2 and Lol will be the more suitable candidate to be a popular RTS in the future.
On January 20 2012 23:17 iLoveKT wrote: In my opinion, I dont think teams from BW except samsung are gonna follow suit to sc2. I have no knowledge about this coz I dont religiously follow sc2 but if it is true that sc2 isnt doing relatively well in Korea, why would they want to sponsor a team for that game. Sc2 is more popular outside korea so why would companies like KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, etc. ,who are based for the most part in Korea only, want to sponsor an sc2 team when they wont gain anything, specially advertising, from it. The possibility of them sponsoring a LoL (I heard LoL is getting big in Korea) team is bigger than them sponsoring an SC2 team, imo. Except for samsung, obviously because they are a global brand.
But that's a reasonable short term view of things. As SC2 grows, the skill level, player base, fandom and everything else will grow with it until eventually there is a whole new generation who grew up with SC2. SC2 is still in its infancy, it's first (of two) expansions is not too far away, and it is the RTS of the future for the time being. In the short term (based on the hints that we are getting), there is going to be an influx of BW players moving over, and a new Korean SC2 league in place. This is going to change the whole landscape for Korean SC2, and will mean that the Korean companies you quoted will have every reason to sponsor an SC2 team. I've no idea what the time frame would be on this, as I'm no insider, but it's going to happen.
And the more top level players the SC2 scene, the better the quality of games we are going to see. We're already seeing more and more amazing games, and the overall level of those at the top in SC2 is continuing to grow and it's a great thing.
I for one am very excited about this and can't wait for the full details to come out.
Sc2 receiving great strategist like Boxer , Mechanical genius Nada , God Of War July from the bw pool of talents could not make sc2 interesting as brood war did . How can my bonjwa Flash , Jaedong,Stork and Bisu is going to do anything more to the game when the game has it's own limitation to what the unit's can do ? . I do not doubt it may be the future game of rts , but that doesn't mean it will be , looking at how thing's are going maybe more casual oriented games like Dota 2 and Lol will be the more suitable candidate to be a popular RTS in the future.
Are you really comparing Boxer, Nada, and July to Bisu, JD, Flash???? That's soooo wrong. Boxer/Nada/July aren't anywhere near the skill level or Bisu/JD/Flash. The things you mentioned about them were all outstanding, like, a really, really, really long time ago (slight exception with Nada).
BoSs' blog gets a lot of shoutouts and that stuff is old. I've already said my two cents on it somewhere. Might have been someone else's blog on this website.
Anyway,
On January 11 2012 19:36 ReaperX wrote: Please not kespa...
It would help make the scene more legitimate in Korea. After seeing the direction the Korean scene is headed in, the SC2 circuit in Korea could definitely use their help.
There's a lot of misinformation out there about KeSPA. Yes, they've made their mistakes like anyone else in the past, but you will grow to appreciate their body of work as a whole.
On January 10 2012 23:44 zul wrote: Jaedong to IM and I`m the happiest nerdling on earth.
IMJaedong sounds terrible... honestly just about all team-player combinations sounds terrrible for Flash/Jaedong.
Edit: Just imagine any of them joining Prime, LOL what a fail that would be xD FlashPrime & JaedongPrime ftw >.<
I like the sound of oGs_Flash
Oh, but making these names up is fun :0
coL.MVPFlash sounds pretty good, as does FXOJaedong. IMStork. oGsBisu. SlayerSFantasy (obligatory). FXOBest (heh). NsHs_Hydra. TSL_Zero. Startale_Effort. ZenexStats. BabyPrime.WE. Mouz.Stats. EGJangBi for an even more tongue-tying name than EGJYP. We also need a young up and coming zerg to name himself Jaedong, so we can call him Faedong.
With any amount of bad luck, they'll just change their names like forGG and cause mass confusion.
Don't forget Liquid'FireBatHero.
haha
Liquid'FireBatHero would be so sick
If KeSPA do get involved. It will be their sponsors. The likelihood of those tags ever being achieved is if the players retire from BW and switch before KeSPA makes it official or if those other teams find a way into the Association, which I'm sure will be a hot topic and BoSs will certainly have his fair share to say on that matter, but that's a story for another day.
It's a pretty big IF and I'm sure every Western Team will have legitimate concerns when it comes down to joining KeSPA and their sanctioned events.
On January 20 2012 23:17 iLoveKT wrote: In my opinion, I dont think teams from BW except samsung are gonna follow suit to sc2. I have no knowledge about this coz I dont religiously follow sc2 but if it is true that sc2 isnt doing relatively well in Korea, why would they want to sponsor a team for that game. Sc2 is more popular outside korea so why would companies like KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, etc. ,who are based for the most part in Korea only, want to sponsor an sc2 team when they wont gain anything, specially advertising, from it. The possibility of them sponsoring a LoL (I heard LoL is getting big in Korea) team is bigger than them sponsoring an SC2 team, imo. Except for samsung, obviously because they are a global brand.
But that's a reasonable short term view of things. As SC2 grows, the skill level, player base, fandom and everything else will grow with it until eventually there is a whole new generation who grew up with SC2. SC2 is still in its infancy, it's first (of two) expansions is not too far away, and it is the RTS of the future for the time being. In the short term (based on the hints that we are getting), there is going to be an influx of BW players moving over, and a new Korean SC2 league in place. This is going to change the whole landscape for Korean SC2, and will mean that the Korean companies you quoted will have every reason to sponsor an SC2 team. I've no idea what the time frame would be on this, as I'm no insider, but it's going to happen.
And the more top level players the SC2 scene, the better the quality of games we are going to see. We're already seeing more and more amazing games, and the overall level of those at the top in SC2 is continuing to grow and it's a great thing.
I for one am very excited about this and can't wait for the full details to come out.
Sc2 receiving great strategist like Boxer , Mechanical genius Nada , God Of War July from the bw pool of talents could not make sc2 interesting as brood war did . How can my bonjwa Flash , Jaedong,Stork and Bisu is going to do anything more to the game when the game has it's own limitation to what the unit's can do ? . I do not doubt it may be the future game of rts , but that doesn't mean it will be , looking at how thing's are going maybe more casual oriented games like Dota 2 and Lol will be the more suitable candidate to be a popular RTS in the future.
Are you really comparing Boxer, Nada, and July to Bisu, JD, Flash???? That's soooo wrong. Boxer/Nada/July aren't anywhere near the skill level or Bisu/JD/Flash. The things you mentioned about them were all outstanding, like, a really, really, really long time ago (slight exception with Nada).
They are all talented players who by will power can make and break through all challenges .Way to underestimate how significant this figures has been to the broodwar scene , they made full use of every unit's in broodwar and push it to the limit . Looking at how thing's have been going for Boxer and friends they aren't doing anything that is really revolutionary to the sc2 scene and even with their great experience in a RTS game can't do a thing . What can Flash do to make sc2 even better when you have already our pioneers who started and made the broodwar scene ? . Nothing I believe , Flash and Co will not make sc2 any better .
Heh of course I can compare boxer to flash , boxer even won flash in a TvT , isn't that enough to say he is talented as flash ? .
most pros that retire from bw currently (contracts run out and a new format) go into military service only a few think about switching to sc2, before going into military service. So i guess we have to wait till the bw pros done their military service before they work on their sc2 career.
On January 20 2012 23:17 iLoveKT wrote: In my opinion, I dont think teams from BW except samsung are gonna follow suit to sc2. I have no knowledge about this coz I dont religiously follow sc2 but if it is true that sc2 isnt doing relatively well in Korea, why would they want to sponsor a team for that game. Sc2 is more popular outside korea so why would companies like KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, etc. ,who are based for the most part in Korea only, want to sponsor an sc2 team when they wont gain anything, specially advertising, from it. The possibility of them sponsoring a LoL (I heard LoL is getting big in Korea) team is bigger than them sponsoring an SC2 team, imo. Except for samsung, obviously because they are a global brand.
But that's a reasonable short term view of things. As SC2 grows, the skill level, player base, fandom and everything else will grow with it until eventually there is a whole new generation who grew up with SC2. SC2 is still in its infancy, it's first (of two) expansions is not too far away, and it is the RTS of the future for the time being. In the short term (based on the hints that we are getting), there is going to be an influx of BW players moving over, and a new Korean SC2 league in place. This is going to change the whole landscape for Korean SC2, and will mean that the Korean companies you quoted will have every reason to sponsor an SC2 team. I've no idea what the time frame would be on this, as I'm no insider, but it's going to happen.
And the more top level players the SC2 scene, the better the quality of games we are going to see. We're already seeing more and more amazing games, and the overall level of those at the top in SC2 is continuing to grow and it's a great thing.
I for one am very excited about this and can't wait for the full details to come out.
Sc2 receiving great strategist like Boxer , Mechanical genius Nada , God Of War July from the bw pool of talents could not make sc2 interesting as brood war did . How can my bonjwa Flash , Jaedong,Stork and Bisu is going to do anything more to the game when the game has it's own limitation to what the unit's can do ? . I do not doubt it may be the future game of rts , but that doesn't mean it will be , looking at how thing's are going maybe more casual oriented games like Dota 2 and Lol will be the more suitable candidate to be a popular RTS in the future.
Are you really comparing Boxer, Nada, and July to Bisu, JD, Flash???? That's soooo wrong. Boxer/Nada/July aren't anywhere near the skill level or Bisu/JD/Flash. The things you mentioned about them were all outstanding, like, a really, really, really long time ago (slight exception with Nada).
They are all talented players who by will power can make and break through all challenges .Way to underestimate how significant this figures has been to the broodwar scene , they made full use of every unit's in broodwar and push it to the limit . Looking at how thing's have been going for Boxer and friends they aren't doing anything that is really revolutionary to the sc2 scene and even with their great experience in a RTS game can't do a thing . What can Flash do to make sc2 even better when you have already our pioneers who started and made the broodwar scene ? . Nothing I believe , Flash and Co will not make sc2 any better .
Heh of course I can compare boxer to flash , boxer even won flash in a TvT , isn't that enough to say he is talented as flash ? .
The game played 4 - 7 years ago and now is really different, even if boxer was able to take a game off flash, probably the chance to win in a box match is close to zero.
On January 20 2012 23:17 iLoveKT wrote: In my opinion, I dont think teams from BW except samsung are gonna follow suit to sc2. I have no knowledge about this coz I dont religiously follow sc2 but if it is true that sc2 isnt doing relatively well in Korea, why would they want to sponsor a team for that game. Sc2 is more popular outside korea so why would companies like KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, etc. ,who are based for the most part in Korea only, want to sponsor an sc2 team when they wont gain anything, specially advertising, from it. The possibility of them sponsoring a LoL (I heard LoL is getting big in Korea) team is bigger than them sponsoring an SC2 team, imo. Except for samsung, obviously because they are a global brand.
But that's a reasonable short term view of things. As SC2 grows, the skill level, player base, fandom and everything else will grow with it until eventually there is a whole new generation who grew up with SC2. SC2 is still in its infancy, it's first (of two) expansions is not too far away, and it is the RTS of the future for the time being. In the short term (based on the hints that we are getting), there is going to be an influx of BW players moving over, and a new Korean SC2 league in place. This is going to change the whole landscape for Korean SC2, and will mean that the Korean companies you quoted will have every reason to sponsor an SC2 team. I've no idea what the time frame would be on this, as I'm no insider, but it's going to happen.
And the more top level players the SC2 scene, the better the quality of games we are going to see. We're already seeing more and more amazing games, and the overall level of those at the top in SC2 is continuing to grow and it's a great thing.
I for one am very excited about this and can't wait for the full details to come out.
Sc2 receiving great strategist like Boxer , Mechanical genius Nada , God Of War July from the bw pool of talents could not make sc2 interesting as brood war did . How can my bonjwa Flash , Jaedong,Stork and Bisu is going to do anything more to the game when the game has it's own limitation to what the unit's can do ? . I do not doubt it may be the future game of rts , but that doesn't mean it will be , looking at how thing's are going maybe more casual oriented games like Dota 2 and Lol will be the more suitable candidate to be a popular RTS in the future.
Are you really comparing Boxer, Nada, and July to Bisu, JD, Flash???? That's soooo wrong. Boxer/Nada/July aren't anywhere near the skill level or Bisu/JD/Flash. The things you mentioned about them were all outstanding, like, a really, really, really long time ago (slight exception with Nada).
They are all talented players who by will power can make and break through all challenges .Way to underestimate how significant this figures has been to the broodwar scene , they made full use of every unit's in broodwar and push it to the limit . Looking at how thing's have been going for Boxer and friends they aren't doing anything that is really revolutionary to the sc2 scene and even with their great experience in a RTS game can't do a thing . What can Flash do to make sc2 even better when you have already our pioneers who started and made the broodwar scene ? . Nothing I believe , Flash and Co will not make sc2 any better .
Heh of course I can compare boxer to flash , boxer even won flash in a TvT , isn't that enough to say he is talented as flash ? .
The game played 4 - 7 years ago and now is really different, even if boxer was able to take a game off flash, probably the chance to win in a box match is close to zero.
If I created a time paradox and travel the current flash , into the time when Boxer was at his prime , You think Boxer wouldn't have taken down or even made the Game in a Box a little closer to winning ? .It's pretty moot point that you are saying , the fact is what Flash and Co is doing is already have been discovered a long time ago thanks to Nada,July ,Garimto and Boxer , without them experimenting and pushing every unit's to their limits . The scene wouldn't have become the way it is right now .
Also I want to say good luck to flash in the box game , the weird map's he has to play with boxer at his prime , he will be wishing he is back in 2011 .
On January 20 2012 23:17 iLoveKT wrote: In my opinion, I dont think teams from BW except samsung are gonna follow suit to sc2. I have no knowledge about this coz I dont religiously follow sc2 but if it is true that sc2 isnt doing relatively well in Korea, why would they want to sponsor a team for that game. Sc2 is more popular outside korea so why would companies like KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, etc. ,who are based for the most part in Korea only, want to sponsor an sc2 team when they wont gain anything, specially advertising, from it. The possibility of them sponsoring a LoL (I heard LoL is getting big in Korea) team is bigger than them sponsoring an SC2 team, imo. Except for samsung, obviously because they are a global brand.
But that's a reasonable short term view of things. As SC2 grows, the skill level, player base, fandom and everything else will grow with it until eventually there is a whole new generation who grew up with SC2. SC2 is still in its infancy, it's first (of two) expansions is not too far away, and it is the RTS of the future for the time being. In the short term (based on the hints that we are getting), there is going to be an influx of BW players moving over, and a new Korean SC2 league in place. This is going to change the whole landscape for Korean SC2, and will mean that the Korean companies you quoted will have every reason to sponsor an SC2 team. I've no idea what the time frame would be on this, as I'm no insider, but it's going to happen.
And the more top level players the SC2 scene, the better the quality of games we are going to see. We're already seeing more and more amazing games, and the overall level of those at the top in SC2 is continuing to grow and it's a great thing.
I for one am very excited about this and can't wait for the full details to come out.
Sc2 receiving great strategist like Boxer , Mechanical genius Nada , God Of War July from the bw pool of talents could not make sc2 interesting as brood war did . How can my bonjwa Flash , Jaedong,Stork and Bisu is going to do anything more to the game when the game has it's own limitation to what the unit's can do ? . I do not doubt it may be the future game of rts , but that doesn't mean it will be , looking at how thing's are going maybe more casual oriented games like Dota 2 and Lol will be the more suitable candidate to be a popular RTS in the future.
Are you really comparing Boxer, Nada, and July to Bisu, JD, Flash???? That's soooo wrong. Boxer/Nada/July aren't anywhere near the skill level or Bisu/JD/Flash. The things you mentioned about them were all outstanding, like, a really, really, really long time ago (slight exception with Nada).
They are all talented players who by will power can make and break through all challenges .Way to underestimate how significant this figures has been to the broodwar scene , they made full use of every unit's in broodwar and push it to the limit . Looking at how thing's have been going for Boxer and friends they aren't doing anything that is really revolutionary to the sc2 scene and even with their great experience in a RTS game can't do a thing . What can Flash do to make sc2 even better when you have already our pioneers who started and made the broodwar scene ? . Nothing I believe , Flash and Co will not make sc2 any better .
Heh of course I can compare boxer to flash , boxer even won flash in a TvT , isn't that enough to say he is talented as flash ? .
The game played 4 - 7 years ago and now is really different, even if boxer was able to take a game off flash, probably the chance to win in a box match is close to zero.
If I created a time paradox and travel the current flash , into the time when Boxer was at his prime , You think Boxer wouldn't have taken down or even made the Game in a Box a little closer to winning ? .It's pretty moot point that you are saying , the fact is what Flash and Co is doing is already have been discovered a long time ago thanks to Nada,July ,Garimto and Boxer , without them experimenting and pushing every unit's to their limits . The scene wouldn't have become the way it is right now .
Nope. Current Flash is better than previous Boxer. That is all. Here, let me try:
If I created a time paradox and travel the current Marathon Runner World Record Holder , into the time when X Previous Record Holder was at his prime, You think X Previous Record Holder wouldn't have taken down or even made the Marathon Race a little closer to winning ? .
I understand your point that at the time Boxer was innovative. Why do you assume I wasn't aware? However injecting him into the SC2 scene is simply not comparable to injecting Flash/JD/Bisu into the SC2 scene, TODAY, now. You're making a fallacious assumption so I'll just leave it at that if you still wish to disagree. To each his own...opinion
On January 20 2012 23:17 iLoveKT wrote: In my opinion, I dont think teams from BW except samsung are gonna follow suit to sc2. I have no knowledge about this coz I dont religiously follow sc2 but if it is true that sc2 isnt doing relatively well in Korea, why would they want to sponsor a team for that game. Sc2 is more popular outside korea so why would companies like KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, etc. ,who are based for the most part in Korea only, want to sponsor an sc2 team when they wont gain anything, specially advertising, from it. The possibility of them sponsoring a LoL (I heard LoL is getting big in Korea) team is bigger than them sponsoring an SC2 team, imo. Except for samsung, obviously because they are a global brand.
But that's a reasonable short term view of things. As SC2 grows, the skill level, player base, fandom and everything else will grow with it until eventually there is a whole new generation who grew up with SC2. SC2 is still in its infancy, it's first (of two) expansions is not too far away, and it is the RTS of the future for the time being. In the short term (based on the hints that we are getting), there is going to be an influx of BW players moving over, and a new Korean SC2 league in place. This is going to change the whole landscape for Korean SC2, and will mean that the Korean companies you quoted will have every reason to sponsor an SC2 team. I've no idea what the time frame would be on this, as I'm no insider, but it's going to happen.
And the more top level players the SC2 scene, the better the quality of games we are going to see. We're already seeing more and more amazing games, and the overall level of those at the top in SC2 is continuing to grow and it's a great thing.
I for one am very excited about this and can't wait for the full details to come out.
Sc2 receiving great strategist like Boxer , Mechanical genius Nada , God Of War July from the bw pool of talents could not make sc2 interesting as brood war did . How can my bonjwa Flash , Jaedong,Stork and Bisu is going to do anything more to the game when the game has it's own limitation to what the unit's can do ? . I do not doubt it may be the future game of rts , but that doesn't mean it will be , looking at how thing's are going maybe more casual oriented games like Dota 2 and Lol will be the more suitable candidate to be a popular RTS in the future.
Are you really comparing Boxer, Nada, and July to Bisu, JD, Flash???? That's soooo wrong. Boxer/Nada/July aren't anywhere near the skill level or Bisu/JD/Flash. The things you mentioned about them were all outstanding, like, a really, really, really long time ago (slight exception with Nada).
They are all talented players who by will power can make and break through all challenges .Way to underestimate how significant this figures has been to the broodwar scene , they made full use of every unit's in broodwar and push it to the limit . Looking at how thing's have been going for Boxer and friends they aren't doing anything that is really revolutionary to the sc2 scene and even with their great experience in a RTS game can't do a thing . What can Flash do to make sc2 even better when you have already our pioneers who started and made the broodwar scene ? . Nothing I believe , Flash and Co will not make sc2 any better .
Heh of course I can compare boxer to flash , boxer even won flash in a TvT , isn't that enough to say he is talented as flash ? .
The game played 4 - 7 years ago and now is really different, even if boxer was able to take a game off flash, probably the chance to win in a box match is close to zero.
If I created a time paradox and travel the current flash , into the time when Boxer was at his prime , You think Boxer wouldn't have taken down or even made the Game in a Box a little closer to winning ? .It's pretty moot point that you are saying , the fact is what Flash and Co is doing is already have been discovered a long time ago thanks to Nada,July ,Garimto and Boxer , without them experimenting and pushing every unit's to their limits . The scene wouldn't have become the way it is right now .
Nope. Current Flash is better than previous Boxer. That is all. Here, let me try:
If I created a time paradox and travel the current Marathon Runner World Record Holder , into the time when X Previous Record Holder was at his prime, You think X Previous Record Holder wouldn't have taken down or even made the Marathon Race a little closer to winning ? .
I understand your point that at the time Boxer was innovative. Why do you assume I wasn't aware? However injecting him into the SC2 scene is simply not comparable to injecting Flash/JD/Bisu into the SC2 scene, TODAY, now. You're making a fallacious assumption so I'll just leave it at that if you still wish to disagree. To each his own...opinion
Sure, that Flash in his prime is better than Boxer in his prime. Simply because game is figured out. When Boxer started RTS games were kinda new, and most of the players barely used hotkeys/keyboards at all.
On January 20 2012 23:17 iLoveKT wrote: In my opinion, I dont think teams from BW except samsung are gonna follow suit to sc2. I have no knowledge about this coz I dont religiously follow sc2 but if it is true that sc2 isnt doing relatively well in Korea, why would they want to sponsor a team for that game. Sc2 is more popular outside korea so why would companies like KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, etc. ,who are based for the most part in Korea only, want to sponsor an sc2 team when they wont gain anything, specially advertising, from it. The possibility of them sponsoring a LoL (I heard LoL is getting big in Korea) team is bigger than them sponsoring an SC2 team, imo. Except for samsung, obviously because they are a global brand.
But that's a reasonable short term view of things. As SC2 grows, the skill level, player base, fandom and everything else will grow with it until eventually there is a whole new generation who grew up with SC2. SC2 is still in its infancy, it's first (of two) expansions is not too far away, and it is the RTS of the future for the time being. In the short term (based on the hints that we are getting), there is going to be an influx of BW players moving over, and a new Korean SC2 league in place. This is going to change the whole landscape for Korean SC2, and will mean that the Korean companies you quoted will have every reason to sponsor an SC2 team. I've no idea what the time frame would be on this, as I'm no insider, but it's going to happen.
And the more top level players the SC2 scene, the better the quality of games we are going to see. We're already seeing more and more amazing games, and the overall level of those at the top in SC2 is continuing to grow and it's a great thing.
I for one am very excited about this and can't wait for the full details to come out.
Sc2 receiving great strategist like Boxer , Mechanical genius Nada , God Of War July from the bw pool of talents could not make sc2 interesting as brood war did . How can my bonjwa Flash , Jaedong,Stork and Bisu is going to do anything more to the game when the game has it's own limitation to what the unit's can do ? . I do not doubt it may be the future game of rts , but that doesn't mean it will be , looking at how thing's are going maybe more casual oriented games like Dota 2 and Lol will be the more suitable candidate to be a popular RTS in the future.
Are you really comparing Boxer, Nada, and July to Bisu, JD, Flash???? That's soooo wrong. Boxer/Nada/July aren't anywhere near the skill level or Bisu/JD/Flash. The things you mentioned about them were all outstanding, like, a really, really, really long time ago (slight exception with Nada).
They are all talented players who by will power can make and break through all challenges .Way to underestimate how significant this figures has been to the broodwar scene , they made full use of every unit's in broodwar and push it to the limit . Looking at how thing's have been going for Boxer and friends they aren't doing anything that is really revolutionary to the sc2 scene and even with their great experience in a RTS game can't do a thing . What can Flash do to make sc2 even better when you have already our pioneers who started and made the broodwar scene ? . Nothing I believe , Flash and Co will not make sc2 any better .
Heh of course I can compare boxer to flash , boxer even won flash in a TvT , isn't that enough to say he is talented as flash ? .
The game played 4 - 7 years ago and now is really different, even if boxer was able to take a game off flash, probably the chance to win in a box match is close to zero.
If I created a time paradox and travel the current flash , into the time when Boxer was at his prime , You think Boxer wouldn't have taken down or even made the Game in a Box a little closer to winning ? .It's pretty moot point that you are saying , the fact is what Flash and Co is doing is already have been discovered a long time ago thanks to Nada,July ,Garimto and Boxer , without them experimenting and pushing every unit's to their limits . The scene wouldn't have become the way it is right now .
Nope. Current Flash is better than previous Boxer. That is all. Here, let me try:
If I created a time paradox and travel the current Marathon Runner World Record Holder , into the time when X Previous Record Holder was at his prime, You think X Previous Record Holder wouldn't have taken down or even made the Marathon Race a little closer to winning ? .
I understand your point that at the time Boxer was innovative. Why do you assume I wasn't aware? However injecting him into the SC2 scene is simply not comparable to injecting Flash/JD/Bisu into the SC2 scene, TODAY, now. You're making a fallacious assumption so I'll just leave it at that if you still wish to disagree. To each his own...opinion
Sure, that Flash in his prime is better than Boxer in his prime. Simply because game is figured out.
I disagree. What if Flash is better now because his game sense is better? Or mechanics? I simply don't agree that Flash is only better because "the game's figured out", that does not compute with me
On January 20 2012 23:17 iLoveKT wrote: In my opinion, I dont think teams from BW except samsung are gonna follow suit to sc2. I have no knowledge about this coz I dont religiously follow sc2 but if it is true that sc2 isnt doing relatively well in Korea, why would they want to sponsor a team for that game. Sc2 is more popular outside korea so why would companies like KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, etc. ,who are based for the most part in Korea only, want to sponsor an sc2 team when they wont gain anything, specially advertising, from it. The possibility of them sponsoring a LoL (I heard LoL is getting big in Korea) team is bigger than them sponsoring an SC2 team, imo. Except for samsung, obviously because they are a global brand.
But that's a reasonable short term view of things. As SC2 grows, the skill level, player base, fandom and everything else will grow with it until eventually there is a whole new generation who grew up with SC2. SC2 is still in its infancy, it's first (of two) expansions is not too far away, and it is the RTS of the future for the time being. In the short term (based on the hints that we are getting), there is going to be an influx of BW players moving over, and a new Korean SC2 league in place. This is going to change the whole landscape for Korean SC2, and will mean that the Korean companies you quoted will have every reason to sponsor an SC2 team. I've no idea what the time frame would be on this, as I'm no insider, but it's going to happen.
And the more top level players the SC2 scene, the better the quality of games we are going to see. We're already seeing more and more amazing games, and the overall level of those at the top in SC2 is continuing to grow and it's a great thing.
I for one am very excited about this and can't wait for the full details to come out.
Sc2 receiving great strategist like Boxer , Mechanical genius Nada , God Of War July from the bw pool of talents could not make sc2 interesting as brood war did . How can my bonjwa Flash , Jaedong,Stork and Bisu is going to do anything more to the game when the game has it's own limitation to what the unit's can do ? . I do not doubt it may be the future game of rts , but that doesn't mean it will be , looking at how thing's are going maybe more casual oriented games like Dota 2 and Lol will be the more suitable candidate to be a popular RTS in the future.
Are you really comparing Boxer, Nada, and July to Bisu, JD, Flash???? That's soooo wrong. Boxer/Nada/July aren't anywhere near the skill level or Bisu/JD/Flash. The things you mentioned about them were all outstanding, like, a really, really, really long time ago (slight exception with Nada).
They are all talented players who by will power can make and break through all challenges .Way to underestimate how significant this figures has been to the broodwar scene , they made full use of every unit's in broodwar and push it to the limit . Looking at how thing's have been going for Boxer and friends they aren't doing anything that is really revolutionary to the sc2 scene and even with their great experience in a RTS game can't do a thing . What can Flash do to make sc2 even better when you have already our pioneers who started and made the broodwar scene ? . Nothing I believe , Flash and Co will not make sc2 any better .
Heh of course I can compare boxer to flash , boxer even won flash in a TvT , isn't that enough to say he is talented as flash ? .
The game played 4 - 7 years ago and now is really different, even if boxer was able to take a game off flash, probably the chance to win in a box match is close to zero.
If I created a time paradox and travel the current flash , into the time when Boxer was at his prime , You think Boxer wouldn't have taken down or even made the Game in a Box a little closer to winning ? .It's pretty moot point that you are saying , the fact is what Flash and Co is doing is already have been discovered a long time ago thanks to Nada,July ,Garimto and Boxer , without them experimenting and pushing every unit's to their limits . The scene wouldn't have become the way it is right now .
Nope. Current Flash is better than previous Boxer. That is all. Here, let me try:
If I created a time paradox and travel the current Marathon Runner World Record Holder , into the time when X Previous Record Holder was at his prime, You think X Previous Record Holder wouldn't have taken down or even made the Marathon Race a little closer to winning ? .
I understand your point that at the time Boxer was innovative. Why do you assume I wasn't aware? However injecting him into the SC2 scene is simply not comparable to injecting Flash/JD/Bisu into the SC2 scene, TODAY, now. You're making a fallacious assumption so I'll just leave it at that if you still wish to disagree. To each his own...opinion
Map's back than wouldn't be suitable for flash kind of play , boxer will triumph and win Flash , if Flash was actually to play those weird and quirky maps back than . Boxer creativity gave birth to all the strategy , terran's have been doing now day and even also credited to oov for being economical . I didn't assume if you aren't aware , I thought these are just basics thing a starcraft fan on tl.net should know .
Fallacious or not I maybe wrong and I maybe right that Flash and Co will not dominate sc2 as you think they would and I am still going on the basis that nothing would change because of the game limitation sc2 is providing to the players right now . Give Boxer in sc2 a Marine and Medic team that can do as much as damage as it could in broodwar and survive as long as they could be micro and I will show you how sc2 is going to make people jaw's drop .
On January 20 2012 23:17 iLoveKT wrote: In my opinion, I dont think teams from BW except samsung are gonna follow suit to sc2. I have no knowledge about this coz I dont religiously follow sc2 but if it is true that sc2 isnt doing relatively well in Korea, why would they want to sponsor a team for that game. Sc2 is more popular outside korea so why would companies like KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, etc. ,who are based for the most part in Korea only, want to sponsor an sc2 team when they wont gain anything, specially advertising, from it. The possibility of them sponsoring a LoL (I heard LoL is getting big in Korea) team is bigger than them sponsoring an SC2 team, imo. Except for samsung, obviously because they are a global brand.
But that's a reasonable short term view of things. As SC2 grows, the skill level, player base, fandom and everything else will grow with it until eventually there is a whole new generation who grew up with SC2. SC2 is still in its infancy, it's first (of two) expansions is not too far away, and it is the RTS of the future for the time being. In the short term (based on the hints that we are getting), there is going to be an influx of BW players moving over, and a new Korean SC2 league in place. This is going to change the whole landscape for Korean SC2, and will mean that the Korean companies you quoted will have every reason to sponsor an SC2 team. I've no idea what the time frame would be on this, as I'm no insider, but it's going to happen.
And the more top level players the SC2 scene, the better the quality of games we are going to see. We're already seeing more and more amazing games, and the overall level of those at the top in SC2 is continuing to grow and it's a great thing.
I for one am very excited about this and can't wait for the full details to come out.
Sc2 receiving great strategist like Boxer , Mechanical genius Nada , God Of War July from the bw pool of talents could not make sc2 interesting as brood war did . How can my bonjwa Flash , Jaedong,Stork and Bisu is going to do anything more to the game when the game has it's own limitation to what the unit's can do ? . I do not doubt it may be the future game of rts , but that doesn't mean it will be , looking at how thing's are going maybe more casual oriented games like Dota 2 and Lol will be the more suitable candidate to be a popular RTS in the future.
Are you really comparing Boxer, Nada, and July to Bisu, JD, Flash???? That's soooo wrong. Boxer/Nada/July aren't anywhere near the skill level or Bisu/JD/Flash. The things you mentioned about them were all outstanding, like, a really, really, really long time ago (slight exception with Nada).
They are all talented players who by will power can make and break through all challenges .Way to underestimate how significant this figures has been to the broodwar scene , they made full use of every unit's in broodwar and push it to the limit . Looking at how thing's have been going for Boxer and friends they aren't doing anything that is really revolutionary to the sc2 scene and even with their great experience in a RTS game can't do a thing . What can Flash do to make sc2 even better when you have already our pioneers who started and made the broodwar scene ? . Nothing I believe , Flash and Co will not make sc2 any better .
Heh of course I can compare boxer to flash , boxer even won flash in a TvT , isn't that enough to say he is talented as flash ? .
The game played 4 - 7 years ago and now is really different, even if boxer was able to take a game off flash, probably the chance to win in a box match is close to zero.
If I created a time paradox and travel the current flash , into the time when Boxer was at his prime , You think Boxer wouldn't have taken down or even made the Game in a Box a little closer to winning ? .It's pretty moot point that you are saying , the fact is what Flash and Co is doing is already have been discovered a long time ago thanks to Nada,July ,Garimto and Boxer , without them experimenting and pushing every unit's to their limits . The scene wouldn't have become the way it is right now .
Nope. Current Flash is better than previous Boxer. That is all. Here, let me try:
If I created a time paradox and travel the current Marathon Runner World Record Holder , into the time when X Previous Record Holder was at his prime, You think X Previous Record Holder wouldn't have taken down or even made the Marathon Race a little closer to winning ? .
I understand your point that at the time Boxer was innovative. Why do you assume I wasn't aware? However injecting him into the SC2 scene is simply not comparable to injecting Flash/JD/Bisu into the SC2 scene, TODAY, now. You're making a fallacious assumption so I'll just leave it at that if you still wish to disagree. To each his own...opinion
Map's back than wouldn't be suitable for flash kind of play , boxer will triumph and win Flash , if Flash was actually to play those weird and quirky maps back than . Boxer creativity gave birth to all the strategy , terran's have been doing now day and even also credited to oov for being economical . I didn't assume if you aren't aware , I thought these are just basics thing a starcraft fan on tl.net should know .
Fallacious or not I maybe wrong and I maybe right that Flash and Co will not dominate sc2 as you think they would and I am still going on the basis that nothing would change because of the game limitation sc2 is providing to the players right now . Give Boxer in sc2 a Marine and Medic team that can do as much as damage as it could in broodwar and survive as long as they could be micro and I will show you how sc2 is going to make people jaw's drop .
If I could I would post the image macro with the cats paw on the guys hand saying "Please Stop Posting", seriously Boxers "strategic plays" would have nothing on Flash's raw skill and ridiculous gamesense. Flash in his prime would drop 1/50 games to Boxer in his prime, probably to some silly cheese cuz boxer was pretty good at that.
On January 21 2012 01:05 AimlessAmoeba wrote: I come in here hoping to catch a glimpse of which sc1 koreans are crossing over, and I fall into an argument over prime Boxer vs current Flash.
DERAIL'D!
Any word on who the people coming over are?
Most likely displaced progamers from the teams that disbanded.
Saying top pro's like Bisu,Flash and JD wont change much close to anything if they moved to sc2 is really naive. I mean people who had little to none impact in the broodwar scene are the current builders of the sc2 scene. They are the people who dictate the game. They dominate everyone. They are the revolutionists. /Tester,FD | later Nestea,MC,MVP/ I dont really see the impact Boxer,NaDa and JulyZerg have in the game in terms of skill level. Thats because there is really none. They cant move the game forward anymore. Of course they will always be interesting and will always produce entartaining stuff but their done as long as competitiveness goes. And that really is the key to everything - the strongest players make the game what it is.
People like Boxer,NaDa and JulyZerg were top players in the broodwar scene but that was years ago. The three of them were among the first who swapped to sc2 because they knew they couldnt compete even with the worst pros in the broodwar scene anymore. Yet you start comparing them to the current top bw pros etc...its just wrong.
On January 21 2012 00:37 Frail wrote: Are there any new hints or anything regarding this?
I'd love to see'em
Hwanni spoke a bit about this on the IM stream this week and he seems convinced BW pro's will move over to SC2 at some point. Though I dont think he gave an ETA. I tend to believe the man being well-informed. But yeah, time will tell how many and when they will move over. =)
On January 20 2012 23:17 iLoveKT wrote: In my opinion, I dont think teams from BW except samsung are gonna follow suit to sc2. I have no knowledge about this coz I dont religiously follow sc2 but if it is true that sc2 isnt doing relatively well in Korea, why would they want to sponsor a team for that game. Sc2 is more popular outside korea so why would companies like KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, etc. ,who are based for the most part in Korea only, want to sponsor an sc2 team when they wont gain anything, specially advertising, from it. The possibility of them sponsoring a LoL (I heard LoL is getting big in Korea) team is bigger than them sponsoring an SC2 team, imo. Except for samsung, obviously because they are a global brand.
But that's a reasonable short term view of things. As SC2 grows, the skill level, player base, fandom and everything else will grow with it until eventually there is a whole new generation who grew up with SC2. SC2 is still in its infancy, it's first (of two) expansions is not too far away, and it is the RTS of the future for the time being. In the short term (based on the hints that we are getting), there is going to be an influx of BW players moving over, and a new Korean SC2 league in place. This is going to change the whole landscape for Korean SC2, and will mean that the Korean companies you quoted will have every reason to sponsor an SC2 team. I've no idea what the time frame would be on this, as I'm no insider, but it's going to happen.
And the more top level players the SC2 scene, the better the quality of games we are going to see. We're already seeing more and more amazing games, and the overall level of those at the top in SC2 is continuing to grow and it's a great thing.
I for one am very excited about this and can't wait for the full details to come out.
Sc2 receiving great strategist like Boxer , Mechanical genius Nada , God Of War July from the bw pool of talents could not make sc2 interesting as brood war did . How can my bonjwa Flash , Jaedong,Stork and Bisu is going to do anything more to the game when the game has it's own limitation to what the unit's can do ? . I do not doubt it may be the future game of rts , but that doesn't mean it will be , looking at how thing's are going maybe more casual oriented games like Dota 2 and Lol will be the more suitable candidate to be a popular RTS in the future.
Are you really comparing Boxer, Nada, and July to Bisu, JD, Flash???? That's soooo wrong. Boxer/Nada/July aren't anywhere near the skill level or Bisu/JD/Flash. The things you mentioned about them were all outstanding, like, a really, really, really long time ago (slight exception with Nada).
They are all talented players who by will power can make and break through all challenges .Way to underestimate how significant this figures has been to the broodwar scene , they made full use of every unit's in broodwar and push it to the limit . Looking at how thing's have been going for Boxer and friends they aren't doing anything that is really revolutionary to the sc2 scene and even with their great experience in a RTS game can't do a thing . What can Flash do to make sc2 even better when you have already our pioneers who started and made the broodwar scene ? . Nothing I believe , Flash and Co will not make sc2 any better .
Heh of course I can compare boxer to flash , boxer even won flash in a TvT , isn't that enough to say he is talented as flash ? .
Boxer has been a tactical genius in SC2. Crazy reaper play? Massive bio drop play onto tanks? Massive bio drop play onto tanks with vikings in support? One of the first exponents of Helions?
Boxer has been amazing, and still has plenty more to offer.
Which means that any top top player would have a huge amount to bring to SC2. There are so many areas of SC2 high level play that can be improved and innovated.
At the same time, I've seen from a lot of the BW old timers that what the current S-Class BW pro's have done is take the refinement of their level of play to a whole new level, not necessarily re-inventing match-ups or defining new tactics. Remember how long BW has been around, and remember that SC2 is a comparative infant.
I'm sorry, BoxeR in his prime is not at the same level of Flash in his prime. The problem is that you guys are comparing apples and oranges. Other than strategic innovation (and this is actually an arguable point, Flash changed TvP) Flash is a better player all around. He has higher APM, better micro, and better macro- and his builds have ten years of metagamed polishing.
Every single cheese the old BoxeR brings to the TvTable Flash has seen before- they've been created, overdone and then subsequently figured out for a fucking decade of gameplay.
Seriously, these types of conversations are ridiculous. I don't see the desire to compare the two, but ultimately, Flash is the best player to have ever played Brood War. He is not the most influential by any stretch of the imagination (BoxeR probably is) but in overall talent, he is.
To those that do not understand the frivolous nature of this conversation, I will explain to you with an example: There was a time when nobody knew about stacking Mutalisks with overlords. This micro tactic did not exist. After it was discovered, anyone who engaged in against a zerg that still did not know this tactic, after normally facing opponents who did, would notice an obvious advantage in their favour vs these weaker enemies. Their opponent would not be playing at the highest of level that they've become accustomed to playing at. Ultimately, little advantages of this nature build up, and they win the game. In literally every technical facet of the game Boxer would be playing with this previously described disadvantage. There's just no way he'd beat a high level Flash.
I am a massive BoxeR fan, and have no strong feelings for Flash one way or the other. This all is just pretty obvious. This is a mirror match, which takes away any racial variation.
tl:dr every thing BoxeR made his name doing is part of every 'this-generation' S-class Terran's standard mechanics.
I think the only reasonable way to figure this out would be to have Boxer Prime and Flash Prime do battle in the most balanced map series in BW history....
HOW DOES A MAP GET WORSE WITH EVERY ITERATION! And why would I get my hopes up every time..."this time its gotta be balanced". First level...fine....second level...fine.....[40 minutes later].....8th level...USSJ9 Goku, Jim Raynor, 255+1 armor, 19999+1 attack...and stim...DAMMIT.
So much silly nonsense. The game was still young in Boxer's days....you didn't really need all three (macro, micro and strat) to win, where as today, unless you get lucky, you need all three.
Boxer was able to win with only micro and strats, he didn't need macro to win, so why would he focus/learn to do that? Flash on the other hand...it is like a necessity in the scene in the last few years.
Anyone saying boxer >flash needs to actually use their brain. Boxer revolutionized bw, but when he was in his prime the level of macro/etc used was laughable compared to the level of the day. No, flash has not revoltionized the game more than boxer, but he is miles better than boxer in terms of mechanical skill.
It's like comparing a roman army to today's army. In a battle today's army would slaughter the Romans, but that does not mean the roman army was not the best army of its TIME.
There is no question flash owes a lot of his success to boxers revolutions, (and that is why boxer is considered a great) but that does not mean flash is not far far far superior mechanical player.
Its like thinking hopetorture is as good as mvp is today
On January 21 2012 01:09 iGswOrd wrote: Saying top pro's like Bisu,Flash and JD wont change much close to anything if they moved to sc2 is really naive. I mean people who had little to none impact in the broodwar scene are the current builders of the sc2 scene. They are the people who dictate the game. They dominate everyone. They are the revolutionists. /Tester,FD | later Nestea,MC,MVP/ I dont really see the impact Boxer,NaDa and JulyZerg have in the game in terms of skill level. Thats because there is really none. They cant move the game forward anymore. Of course they will always be interesting and will always produce entartaining stuff but their done as long as competitiveness goes. And that really is the key to everything - the strongest players make the game what it is.
People like Boxer,NaDa and JulyZerg were top players in the broodwar scene but that was years ago. The three of them were among the first who swapped to sc2 because they knew they couldnt compete even with the worst pros in the broodwar scene anymore. Yet you start comparing them to the current top bw pros etc...its just wrong.
If they started to play SC2 full time today, I don't think they would come up with something new or revolutionary at all. And if people expect that from Flash, Bisu and Jaedong they would be really dissapointed I believe. More like they would abuse the hell out of everything possible there is in SC2 already and just do the same things the best players are doing today, but just better. If they switch and HotS and LotV change up the gameplay alot then we could obviously see new things that work because of their raw RTS skills.
On January 21 2012 04:24 1Eris1 wrote: Anyone saying boxer >flash needs to actually use their brain. Boxer revolutionized bw, but when he was in his prime the level of macro/etc used was laughable compared to the level of the day. No, flash has not revoltionized the game more than boxer, but he is miles better than boxer in terms of mechanical skill.
It's like comparing a roman army to today's army. In a battle today's army would slaughter the Romans, but that does not mean the roman army was not the best army of its TIME.
There is no question flash owes a lot of his success to boxers revolutions, (and that is why boxer is considered a great) but that does not mean flash is not far far far superior mechanical player.
Its like thinking hopetorture is as good as mvp is today
I agree. While Boxer had a much larger impact on the development of Terran play and eSports in general, Flash is the best Terran player that the world has ever seen.
On February 08 2012 03:15 Nawe wrote: I'm sorry for bumping this thread, but 40 days passed and there isn't any info about this. This mean Boss made fake hype for blog or?
Wouldn't be the first time Boss is trolling, but you need to take into account that even if players are switching it could take a while before it is made public.
On February 08 2012 03:15 Nawe wrote: I'm sorry for bumping this thread, but 40 days passed and there isn't any info about this. This mean Boss made fake hype for blog or?
1. It's not been 40 days. January 9th to February 8th is not 40 days.
2. They aren't going to magically switch as soon as 40 days are up, look for a switch to happen after SPL ends in early April.
3. Even when they do switch, you might not know about it for a while.
On January 10 2012 23:24 Fus wrote: I'd like all brood war playes to swap to sc2 :D When enough players have swapped, the community just falls apart and recuire the rest to either quit playing or swapping aswell.
I'd like none of them to swap. Is there a reason behind SC2 community needs top BW players so badly? It is like comparing chess to checkers, where only similiarity is, both games are played on the same type of board. Facing the argument of game mechanics simplicity (as often pointed by BW fans), SC2 supporters promptly admit, that their game requires a lot of strategic thinking... and so on. I am not going to argue that, it just shows that the skillset is different. Why should one expect the top BW professionals (who are the product of years of developing skills towards mastering BW) to excel in the game that requires different type of skills? It is like in theory of evolution - most succesful skills propagate to next generations of gamers, and other evaporate (and thus the players whose gameplay is based on these less succesful skills). Top BW players will make revolution in SC2 only if for some reasons they are fit for that game better than current SC2 pro players. Possible, but not likely.
On January 10 2012 23:24 Fus wrote:There is no prestige in winning an OSL if nobody plays the game.
There is perhaps also no prestige in winning olympic gold in modern pentathlon. And there is certainly no prestige in being second-to-last in some ranking, being only able to outplay your worst enemy.
I really wish SC2 reach the level of "fully developed, well known, and finally finished game". Just to get rid of this "infancy" argument. It still will have a chance, BW will be even older then. + Show Spoiler +
EPT
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/c/c1/Perfectman.png)
) and you obviously can't remain as a top BW player if you're only practicing SC2. The most logical assumption would be the A-teamers from Hwaseung/MBC/Wemade who didn't get picked up like Anytime, Lomo, Pure, etc. I mean, FXOBoss wouldn't be incorrect to call these guys consistent A-teamers but they don't represent a significant difference in skill level compared to the likes of Mvp, fOrGG or Hyun.
![[image loading]](http://threadbombing.com/data/media/2/THISGONBGUD.gif)
I mean they're basically run by KeSPA and if KeSPA was thinking about switching they'd be one of the first teams to know about it so they'd be one of the first to start practicing while letting their BW play slip. Or maybe I just need a scapegoat.
