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On January 02 2012 21:27 Troublesome wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 21:08 mvtaylor wrote:
Haha, standard.
Glad other Terrans have just decided to just all in until TvP gets fixed.
3rax + stim + vacs + scvs ftw! How juvenile, the matchup has statistically been in Terran favour for all but 2 months this year. You just need to adapt to patch and meta-game changes like everybody else.
If everyone starts doing allins when previously they weren't it is an adaptation to meta-game and patch changes...
Also, I'm curious how december has 2000 games played. There were barely any tournaments played this month, or did I miss something?
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On January 02 2012 21:23 Kvz wrote:
is it safe to say 2011 was the year of terran?
I'd say so. Getting always the highest winning %, while getting nerfed over and over. We're finaly approaching balance which is nice. I'd nerf them a bit more tho, they don't really know what "struggling" means 
+ Show Spoiler +
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France12904 Posts
On January 02 2012 20:42 Kenshi235 wrote:
Can't wait for another terran nerf. TvP gets harder and harder every day for T for non GM/top masters players, but b/c Pros are getting it done we gonna get nerfed more. Additionally I get bm'ed by every P at start assuming I'm going to cheese or 111 when I don't. I guess I should join the crowd if I'm already being blamed right?
Pros are not getting it down, I guess the koreans like PuMa etc who travels for NASL and stuff changes the international winrates ^^
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On January 02 2012 21:27 Big J wrote:
kind of sad to see T still up that strong. after all that nerfs one would expect terran winrates to swing around 50% just like the should... still we see them dominate.
Well, isn't the word dominate too strong a word for something this balanced? At top level T: 52%, P:51% and Z:45%. I would not call that domination, but really good balancing (if looking at pure winrates). You are aware when you look at the graph that it does not show winrates from 0% to 100% but the range is from 40 to 60%. It therefore can look more than it actually is. You wont be able to get much closer than this IMO, but sure, Z at 45 is a bit low on top level, but with the highest skill ceiling these numbers will even out more if Bliz doesn't patch anymore.
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On January 02 2012 21:38 HowardRoark wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 21:27 Big J wrote:
kind of sad to see T still up that strong. after all that nerfs one would expect terran winrates to swing around 50% just like the should... still we see them dominate. Well, isn't the word dominate too strong a word for something this balanced? At top level T: 52%, P:51% and Z:45%. I would not call that domination, but really good balancing (if looking at pure winrates). You are aware when you look at the graph that it does not show winrates from 0% to 100% but the range is from 40 to 60%. It therefore can look more than it actually is. You wont be able to get much closer than this IMO, but sure, Z at 45 is a bit low on top level, but with the highest skill ceiling these numbers will even out more if Bliz doesn't patch anymore.
Individual matchups are more important to look at than the overall win rates for balance.
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On January 02 2012 21:29 Jakkerr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 21:25 HowardRoark wrote:On January 02 2012 20:33 Harstem wrote:On January 02 2012 20:30 MilesTeg wrote:
PvZ favouring Protoss again, I can't say I'm surprised. It's only going to get worse IMO. It is actually still favoring zerg.... Uhm, at top level it is 55% winrate for P, 45% winrate for Z? In korea which has 429 games vs 2274 games Internationally. I'd say international is a more reliable graph, international it is 50,3% zerg 49,7% protoss. Even if the winrate gets P favored, who cares? Zerg has been favored in this matchup for 8 months in a row.
agree. Korea has had rougly 100 pvzs this month. it statistically wacky. the MU looks good statistically speaking and also from how we have people seen performing.
but well... i care about balance (as a zerg i have also cared about P balance as it was annoying seeing P clueless how to deal in macro ways with 3hatxh openings). especially as P has hardly been buffed and Z not being nerfed to achieve this balanced state. it was a metagame thing.
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On January 02 2012 21:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 21:29 Jakkerr wrote:On January 02 2012 21:25 HowardRoark wrote:On January 02 2012 20:33 Harstem wrote:On January 02 2012 20:30 MilesTeg wrote:
PvZ favouring Protoss again, I can't say I'm surprised. It's only going to get worse IMO. It is actually still favoring zerg.... Uhm, at top level it is 55% winrate for P, 45% winrate for Z? In korea which has 429 games vs 2274 games Internationally. I'd say international is a more reliable graph, international it is 50,3% zerg 49,7% protoss. Even if the winrate gets P favored, who cares? Zerg has been favored in this matchup for 8 months in a row. agree. Korea has had rougly 100 pvzs this month. it statistically wacky. the MU looks good statistically speaking and also from how we have people seen performing. but well... i care about balance (as a zerg i have also cared about P balance as it was annoying seeing P clueless how to deal in macro ways with 3hatxh openings). especially as P has hardly been buffed and Z not being nerfed to achieve this balanced state. it was a metagame thing.
off course, i'm not saying it would be fair if P gets favored in PvZ now :p.
But I thought it was a bit hypocritical that some guy started whining about the PvZ winrate getting close to P favored for the first time since 8 months.
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On January 02 2012 21:38 HowardRoark wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 21:27 Big J wrote:
kind of sad to see T still up that strong. after all that nerfs one would expect terran winrates to swing around 50% just like the should... still we see them dominate. Well, isn't the word dominate too strong a word for something this balanced? At top level T: 52%, P:51% and Z:45%. I would not call that domination, but really good balancing (if looking at pure winrates). You are aware when you look at the graph that it does not show winrates from 0% to 100% but the range is from 40 to 60%. It therefore can look more than it actually is. You wont be able to get much closer than this IMO, but sure, Z at 45 is a bit low on top level, but with the highest skill ceiling these numbers will even out more if Bliz doesn't patch anymore.
well i guess dominate is a too strong word this month. i would just like to see terran have this kind of metagame swinging like it should be. p are being really creative these days and have a really strong macro standard build (double forge) yet we still see terran being better off... it's just looks too easy right now for terrans to adapt... it looks like without any new macrogame inventions in TvP Terran is still up which kind of bugs me, as i like it when the race with the newer style gets rewarded for developing.
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I checked the november stats from TLPD and they differ from the december one?The November stats PVT was 55 to 45, in the december stats is the PVT stats for november is 50.5 to 49.5? Same with PVZ and so on? Is there something wrong or did i understand the stats wrong?
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On January 02 2012 20:39 DaveVAH wrote:
Why is in this graph the overall international win rate is showing terran at 50 something percent for novmber? while it was at 49 when the november graph was released last month. also why is pvt 52% to 48% in this version for november while last month it was reading 45% T to 55% P?? are these the same graphs done by the same person or different? has the numbers been changed?
That is what i was trying to say! I think the numbers are wrong on this one!
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On January 02 2012 21:52 DerFreemind wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 20:39 DaveVAH wrote:
Why is in this graph the overall international win rate is showing terran at 50 something percent for novmber? while it was at 49 when the november graph was released last month. also why is pvt 52% to 48% in this version for november while last month it was reading 45% T to 55% P?? are these the same graphs done by the same person or different? has the numbers been changed? That is what i was trying to say ! I think the numbers are wrong on this one!
Please READ the thread before you post. Sorry if this counts as backseat moderation, but there are answers to your question on Page 1 AND Page 2.
Here:
On January 02 2012 20:42 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 20:39 DaveVAH wrote:
Why is in this graph the overall international win rate is showing terran at 50 something percent for novmber? while it was at 49 when the november graph was released last month. also why is pvt 52% to 48% in this version for november while last month it was reading 45% T to 55% P?? are these the same graphs done by the same person or different? has the numbers been changed? Same person, but more games have been added to TLPD since then, because not all games are added to TLPD as soon as they are played out. There is normally a delay. Thanks again, Ctuchik. Is your name by any chance taken from the Belgariad by Eddings?
On January 02 2012 21:07 Ctuchik wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 20:42 SeaSwift wrote:On January 02 2012 20:39 DaveVAH wrote:
Why is in this graph the overall international win rate is showing terran at 50 something percent for novmber? while it was at 49 when the november graph was released last month. also why is pvt 52% to 48% in this version for november while last month it was reading 45% T to 55% P?? are these the same graphs done by the same person or different? has the numbers been changed? Same person, but more games have been added to TLPD since then, because not all games are added to TLPD as soon as they are played out. There is normally a delay. Thanks again, Ctuchik. Is your name by any chance taken from the Belgariad by Eddings? Yup, quite a few games have been added to those months. I think it might be yeah. Picked it up ages ago and I honestly don't remember. 
I think it's safe to say that there's no reason to believe the graphs are wrong.
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On January 02 2012 21:52 DerFreemind wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 20:39 DaveVAH wrote:
Why is in this graph the overall international win rate is showing terran at 50 something percent for novmber? while it was at 49 when the november graph was released last month. also why is pvt 52% to 48% in this version for november while last month it was reading 45% T to 55% P?? are these the same graphs done by the same person or different? has the numbers been changed? That is what i was trying to say ! I think the numbers are wrong on this one!
its been updated. i think it's somewhere in the OP.
some gameresults/tournamentresults seem to be late. (and these stats are really early... Jan 2nd...)
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On January 02 2012 21:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 21:38 HowardRoark wrote:On January 02 2012 21:27 Big J wrote:
kind of sad to see T still up that strong. after all that nerfs one would expect terran winrates to swing around 50% just like the should... still we see them dominate. Well, isn't the word dominate too strong a word for something this balanced? At top level T: 52%, P:51% and Z:45%. I would not call that domination, but really good balancing (if looking at pure winrates). You are aware when you look at the graph that it does not show winrates from 0% to 100% but the range is from 40 to 60%. It therefore can look more than it actually is. You wont be able to get much closer than this IMO, but sure, Z at 45 is a bit low on top level, but with the highest skill ceiling these numbers will even out more if Bliz doesn't patch anymore. well i guess dominate is a too strong word this month. i would just like to see terran have this kind of metagame swinging like it should be. p are being really creative these days and have a really strong macro standard build (double forge) yet we still see terran being better off... it's just looks too easy right now for terrans to adapt... it looks like without any new macrogame inventions in TvP Terran is still up which kind of bugs me, as i like it when the race with the newer style gets rewarded for developing. ITT: Your general protoss player thinking that these graphs have any correlation with their ladder experience when it's a well-known fact that the micro required to play terran at the highest level is hardly seen outside of korea ( only Juan in NA?LOL).All I see every day is more terrans switching.
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I think the thing about TvP is that unless you have godly micro as T it's incredibly hard to win a late game engagement as terran. The reason why terran though is favored in these charts though is that in pro-level terrans has that micro which i was talking about and protoss can't do much about about it as TvP engagements is mostly about what terran does. If terran does a shit job and misses all EMP and gets his vikings kiled before defeating the toss army he loses, if he hits all EMP and kills every collosi before they can do significant damage he wins. This is why pros with good micro wins TvP and gold-level scrubs loses it.
I feel like the matchup needs a rework.
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On January 02 2012 21:59 StarcraftNerd1547 wrote:
I think the thing about TvP is that unless you have godly micro as T it's incredibly hard to win a late game engagement as terran. The reason why terran though is favored in these charts though is that in pro-level terrans has that micro which i was talking about and protoss can't do much about about it as TvP engagements is mostly about what terran does. If terran does a shit job and misses all EMP and gets his vikings kiled before defeating the toss army he loses, if he hits all EMP and kills every collosi before they can do significant damage he wins. This is why pros with good micro wins TvP and gold-level scrubs loses it.
I feel like the matchup needs a rework.
Completely agree. All-ins are still really good as Terran, but Protoss is favoured slightly in passive macro games. Terran has a higher skill requirement, but also a higher skill ceiling, whereas Protoss has a lower skill requirement but a lower skill ceiling, too.
I don't think the matchup will get any better until HotS.
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On January 02 2012 21:59 StarcraftNerd1547 wrote:
I think the thing about TvP is that unless you have godly micro as T it's incredibly hard to win a late game engagement as terran. The reason why terran though is favored in these charts though is that in pro-level terrans has that micro which i was talking about and protoss can't do much about about it as TvP engagements is mostly about what terran does. If terran does a shit job and misses all EMP and gets his vikings kiled before defeating the toss army he loses, if he hits all EMP and kills every collosi before they can do significant damage he wins. This is why pros with good micro wins TvP and gold-level scrubs loses it.
I feel like the matchup needs a rework.
If by gold level scrubs you mean the entire low to mid masters in EU and NA I totally agree with you.
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Awesome, thanks for adding the patch note markers at the top helps a lot.
Interesting to see P has gone down a tiny bit again also.
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On January 02 2012 22:02 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 21:59 StarcraftNerd1547 wrote:
I think the thing about TvP is that unless you have godly micro as T it's incredibly hard to win a late game engagement as terran. The reason why terran though is favored in these charts though is that in pro-level terrans has that micro which i was talking about and protoss can't do much about about it as TvP engagements is mostly about what terran does. If terran does a shit job and misses all EMP and gets his vikings kiled before defeating the toss army he loses, if he hits all EMP and kills every collosi before they can do significant damage he wins. This is why pros with good micro wins TvP and gold-level scrubs loses it.
I feel like the matchup needs a rework. Completely agree. All-ins are still really good as Terran, but Protoss is favoured slightly in passive macro games. Terran has a higher skill requirement, but also a higher skill ceiling, whereas Protoss has a lower skill requirement but a lower skill ceiling, too. I don't think the matchup will get any better until HotS.
imo terran skill requirement is rather low compared to Ps... only judging from offracing both, but my terran is way better than my Protoss...
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Ok i see. But i still think there could be something wrong. In November there were 25900 games played, terran was 10 % behind toss. Same for PVZ! In December we have 27153 game, only 1300 games more! So the question is, how many game must have be added and all those games have to be terran wins against toss and Toss wins against Zerg....looks somewhat strange to me?! 10% is alot in terms of balancing?!
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On January 02 2012 22:08 DerFreemind wrote:
Ok i see. But i still think there could be something wrong. In November there were 25900 games played, terran was 10 % behind toss. Same for PVZ! In December we have 27153 game, only 1300 games more! So the question is, how many game must have be added and all those games have to be terran wins against toss and Toss wins against Zerg....looks somewhat strange to me?! 10% is alot in terms of balancing?!
November's graph is here: http://i.imgur.com/qphvw.png
There were some minor changes (especially in PvT), but nothing too big. I'm glad you are examining the stats with a critical mind though!
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EPT
