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Artok
Netherlands2219 Posts
On January 06 2012 22:47 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: EDIT: D: You think I'm baiting? As Cloud would say, I disagree! Bah, meant to edit previous post. At above, not below now. :\ Oh well, last few posts were out of topic anw, and no1 seem to be interested in responding to real posts as well ;/ | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
According to every random ladder Terran: - They all have a shitty TvP winrate, at most 30% (it's always 30% in their posts) - TvT naturally is a 50% winrate matchup over all ladder Terrans. - Blizzard system is designed to give you 50% winrate. --> Hence, they all have a pretty fucking good TvZ winrate. Every single fucking Terran rocks at TvZ. There we go, TvZ is imbalanced and unwinnable for Zerg. Is that what it is, my dear random Terrans? And btw, I can't see how we can still discuss "Terran worst race" when we see that Terran is still way ahead... At least when Protoss was whining, the pro winrates were at like 30%, there was a "reason" to whine, somewhat. Same for Zerg in ZvP, it did look rough for them a long time ago. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 06 2012 23:09 ZenithM wrote: Ok, so I'll restate what I said earlier. According to every random ladder Terran: - They all have a shitty TvP winrate, at most 30% (it's always 30% in their posts) - TvT naturally is a 50% winrate matchup over all ladder Terrans. - Blizzard system is designed to give you 50% winrate. --> Hence, they all have a pretty fucking good TvZ winrate. Every single fucking Terran rocks at TvZ. There we go, TvZ is imbalanced and unwinnable for Zerg. Giggle, I always think the same. | ||
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Xalorian
Canada433 Posts
Seriously, people should understand once and for all, especially all those terran that are crying on every board about how Terran is so much harder, that you can't look at only one month of stats, It's ludicrous. Protoss seems to get back into PvZ each month, even more in korea. That's a good thing. Now if Toss could keep a near 50% win rate against Terran, we will have a nice balanced graph. And, for god sake, if you are a terran and you are winning only 30% of your TvP, then go on the SC2 Strategy board, post some replay and ask for help. It have NOTHING to do with with balance. And, if you seriously have 30% (why on fucking hell are every terran winning exactly 30% of their games against P on TL, tho?) against P, knowing that Battle.net is made so you always have 50% win rate until GM, that would mean that you are a fucking beast at TvT and TvZ to keep up for it. Stop working on those, and train your TvP. If you don't care about training and improvement, and you just want to play for fun... then stop whining. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
 Thanks. | ||
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Rye.
United Kingdom88 Posts
On January 06 2012 21:41 Artok wrote: Balancing around top players is how competitive games are done, you are always free to switch games, and no, worrying about random ignorant guy shouldnt be higher priority than making game into esport, bye. His point was that if blizzard wants to make money (which i guarantee they do above all else) then balancing ONLY for the top 200 guys in Korea isn't a good thing. Luckily Blizzard try to balance for everyone and personally i think its a huge task which they have done a fantastic job of so far. They realise the promotion of esports is good for their current sales as well as future sales. The issue for a lot of people is the perceived balance on the ladder when not at the top. You have to remember that 80% of players are in bronze to platinum. If you lose the interest of those 80% then you will lose your esport. Lets assume that terran and protoss macro mechanics are equal. so a protoss that was top gold should have the same macro skill level as a terran in top gold. The issue is that people see terran Micro as being more difficult / requiring more skill *to be even at lower levels* Think of chargelot archon against whatever the terran has. If the game was balanced at silver and gold levels then terran a-move into protoss a-move would come out even, but this isnt the case and we all know it. Therefore the game isnt balanced at silver and gold. Terran is required to micro to a higher level. To look at it a different way imagine you were CAPPED at 30 apm... how would things turn out between the races? What you will find though is that the MMR system actually kinda works around this. Since it aims to give you a 50% winrate. In the chargelot archon example, a terran keeps losing to it, until his unit control completely surpasses that of the protoss'. Just before this though, he will likely be of a skill that is above the zerg he is being matched against. That terren will then hit another wall, and another etc.. until at GM level. The same goes for protoss and zerg. Zerg will have to overcome the early reactor helion tactic in order to climb the ladder (gold). Protoss will have to deal with early rax agression until they realise its stopped by a few force fields (silver). The way to look at it is as though skill is a hurdles race but where the hurdles are set out differently in each lane. You approach a hurdle and look at the person in the next lane and think, "wait a minute, why doesnt he have to jump one, thats not fair", but as soon as you are able to jump it you have a clear run and its the other persons time to jump, and he'll be thinking "its not fair" @ZenithM Im plat terran. My TvP is 30%, my TvZ is 70%....go figure. @Xalorian The winrates are from TL database. They have almost no relevance to the ladder. Most people that whine are below masters league. So these graphs have even less relevance to them. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 06 2012 23:09 ZenithM wrote: Ok, so I'll restate what I said earlier. According to every random ladder Terran: - They all have a shitty TvP winrate, at most 30% (it's always 30% in their posts) - TvT naturally is a 50% winrate matchup over all ladder Terrans. - Blizzard system is designed to give you 50% winrate. --> Hence, they all have a pretty fucking good TvZ winrate. Every single fucking Terran rocks at TvZ. There we go, TvZ is imbalanced and unwinnable for Zerg. Is that what it is, my dear random Terrans? And btw, I can't see how we can still discuss "Terran worst race" when we see that Terran is still way ahead... At least when Protoss was whining, the pro winrates were at like 30%, there was a "reason" to whine, somewhat. Same for Zerg in ZvP, it did look rough for them a long time ago. lol... still laughing so hard, havent thought about this yet :-) that's why TvZ is completly unwinnable if you're not DRG or NesTea. i guess the reason for this is that building units takes way to many apm, while terrans only have to queue units and go for a cup of tea. ^^ btw this leads to PvZ being completly unwinnable for P on low level. anyone know why? ;-) | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 06 2012 23:39 Rye. wrote: Honestly, and without wanting to insult anyone, I think Terran is the easiest race in platinum and below. I mean I don't even play Terran, but I sometimes offrace against diamond Protoss, and I just make bio, stim, get a good concave and a-move and it's over. I think the usual complaints come from at least diamond, mostly master players, who are kinda good-ish mechanically, as good as their protoss/zerg opponent at the very least, but they feel like they must micro and multitask more or something, like kite chargelots for a very long time, or split marines against banelings. In plat or below, any form of balance is probably out of reach and irrelevant, I'd venture that 4 gate is still the powerfulest gosuest shit at that level, even though it's ridiculously easy to hold when you know what to do and 6 pools probably kill most plat Protoss on the other side. | ||
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Xalorian
Canada433 Posts
On January 06 2012 23:39 Rye. wrote: @ZenithM Im plat terran. My TvP is 30%, my TvZ is 70%....go figure. @Xalorian The winrates are from TL database. They have almost no relevance to the ladder. Most people that whine are below masters league. So these graphs have even less relevance to them. Another one with a TvP of 30%, lol. Why are those "Below master" are fucking whining in this thread if this thread have no relevance to them? This make no sense, sorry. And, I will repeat it : blizzard income from SC2 do NOT come from low level players playing casually, and will never be. Those players have already bought the game, anyway, so eh? And you do understand that probably half if not more of those who bought the game are playing only custom games and are absolutly not competitive? And that the other half care more about high level play than their own play, because they are following the scene? And you do understand that blizzard probably make way more money from sponsoring tournament, from receiving money from tournamenet and organisation for "rights" of using their games, and from all the people that heard of the scene because of tournament and etc and have bought the game afterward? Saying that blizzard need to start balacing the game toward low level players to make money is retarded, sorry. The game is that popular only because SC1 was competitive and balanced toward high level players, in the first place. And no, blizzard is not balancing toward low and high level players. It is only balanced toward high level players and it's fine this way. Don't worry. Blizzard know how to make money and they don't need tips. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
Hah! My bad.  | ||
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Rye.
United Kingdom88 Posts
On January 07 2012 00:16 Xalorian wrote: Another one with a TvP of 30%, lol. Why are those "Below master" are fucking whining in this thread if this thread have no relevance to them? This make no sense, sorry. And, I will repeat it : blizzard income from SC2 do NOT come from low level players playing casually, and will never be. Those players have already bought the game, anyway, so eh? And you do understand that probably half if not more of those who bought the game are playing only custom games and are absolutly not competitive? And that the other half care more about high level play than their own play, because they are following the scene? And you do understand that blizzard probably make way more money from sponsoring tournament, from receiving money from tournamenet and organisation for "rights" of using their games, and from all the people that heard of the scene because of tournament and etc and have bought the game afterward? Saying that blizzard need to stop balacing the game toward high level to make money is retarded, sorry. The game is that popular only because SC1 was competitive and balanced toward high level players, in the first place. Don't worry. Blizzard know how to make money and they don't need your tips. From a quick google search, SC2 sold 4.5 million copies. At the current price of 40€ that makes 180 million euros. and thats just from sc2, it doesnt include WoW or any of their other games. 180 Million euros completely smashes anything that is made at a tournament. Not to mention that HOTs will probably sell well when its released. Sponsoring a tournament means THEY PAY towards if not all of the expenses. Therefore not making money. They do it in the hope of increased sales through publicity and keeping the game alive and fresh. If they can get 4.5 million HOTS sales they will be extremely happy. As for broadcasting rights, yes they probably make a bit of money, but it will be tiny compared to 180 million euros in game sales. Advert revenues to streamers, which as we recently have been informed by TwitchTV themselves, are nice but by no means are they millions of euros. And if these revenues are not high then the amount they pay blizzard cant be high either. As for the game being popular because of SC1, again not true. SC2 was big because of the name Blizzard, because of WoW, and Diablo etc.. and because it got fantastic reviews and appeared in lots of magazines etc.. SCBW will have played a part, but not as big as you think. | ||
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Traven
United States160 Posts
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forelmashi
421 Posts
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Xalorian
Canada433 Posts
On January 07 2012 01:01 Rye. wrote: From a quick google search, SC2 sold 4.5 million copies. At the current price of 40€ that makes 180 million euros. and thats just from sc2, it doesnt include WoW or any of their other games. 180 Million euros completely smashes anything that is made at a tournament. Not to mention that HOTs will probably sell well when its released. Sponsoring a tournament means THEY PAY towards if not all of the expenses. Therefore not making money. They do it in the hope of increased sales through publicity and keeping the game alive and fresh. If they can get 4.5 million HOTS sales they will be extremely happy. As for broadcasting rights, yes they probably make a bit of money, but it will be tiny compared to 180 million euros in game sales. Advert revenues to streamers, which as we recently have been informed by TwitchTV themselves, are nice but by no means are they millions of euros. And if these revenues are not high then the amount they pay blizzard cant be high either. As for the game being popular because of SC1, again not true. SC2 was big because of the name Blizzard, because of WoW, and Diablo etc.. and because it got fantastic reviews and appeared in lots of magazines etc.. SCBW will have played a part, but not as big as you think. You do know that making a game cost money, that printing box cost money, that running servers cost money, etc, etc, etc... and that, therefore, it is no way near 180 milion in profit, probably more like 50 or 60, if not less? Money from stream, tournament and etc, goes pretty much directly in their pocket. Do you even have an idea how much money they probably make with the partnership with GOMTV and pretty much every event? They don't make "the same money than a streamer", no, sorry. They make waaay more, since they are asking for rights, are getting money from publicity and sponsors directly, are getting funded by organisations, get a lot of media attention attention, therefore investor attention, and what not. Selling box is only a part of it. Yes, it's an important part of it, but only one. And my point was that most people that bought the games don't really care about balance, since they don't even play competitively. Most of those who bought SC2 bought it for the campaign and the custom game, nothing to do with the low level balance. The only one who really care and "could" porentially leave the game over that and not buying the next expansion (the only way to make blizzard lose money because of it) are those who are laddering, are good enough to spot real imbalances at the lower level, but do not care about the higher level play, don't want to get better and don't watch stream. (those who do, care about the high level balance, not the bronze-low master level balance.)... How much people is that? Do you really think that this could lose them more money than not focusing all their attention to the high level balance? | ||
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TG Manny
United States325 Posts
1) Terran micro-multitasking must extremely out-do the Protosses, with drops, army positioning and micro, constantly scouting where the deathball is, and trying to stay even on upgrades. When it is time to re-max an army, the 15 zealots who tank like bosses and do pretty good DPS when close is really difficult to handle as T (plus chronoboosting the warpgates for more templar/archon behind it). 1-b) Lots of what T can do to harass can almost instantly be cleaned up by a few cannons, a HT sitting near the exposed base (+awareness to feedback/storm), a few stalkers, or warping in a few zealots. The Drop window is fairly narrow, depending on how threatened he feels about them and reposition army to deal with it before it is a hassle. Forces T to play P's game unless the game goes like 4 base+ where the bio army can harass multiple mining bases without drops. 2) Terran players are all-inning and T has the most friendly all-in mechanics (mules and ranged T1), so of course protoss loses without a scout or incredible micro. This is most likely the cause of the winrate being in T's favor, as the 111 is so popular. The problem lies within the relative strengths of the midgame as terran (with drops and mauraders and a few upgrades) compared to the relative strength of the protoss midgame to force full-army engagement + warpgate remaxes with chrono. Where it is different in the TvZ game, as T has early advantage until he loses a small army then Z does for mid/late game after a muta flock has been spawned and he can upgrade, expand, tech, etc. according to his desires. The advantages can be lost with poor control on both sides. Oops Z just A moved 20 mutas into a few thors and marines and did next to no sustained damage. Oops T just got caught unsieged and got 5-6 tanks and a good amount of marines killed by ling/bling. The TvZ MU is very volatile from game to game and Z can strengthen himself early on to defend T pressure at cost of a later advantage (expos, tech, econ) and the late-game Z composition deathball (Infestor, Brood, ling, and some bling) is much weaker and may be split apart by Terran drop-play much easier than P deathball. Terran is pretty well favored in this MU because of the inherent weaknesses in Zerg play (such as making a few drones too many, expoing when you needed army, teching when you needed some Blings) and even "Standard" zerg has many variations that are determined on a match-by-match basis of how they think the terran is playing. (IE more mutas and aggression vs mech T OR 3rd at 5 minutes if you feel safe enough etc.) By pointing this out I wish to point out the relative standardness of both the T and P mechanics in their meta-game. Neither T nor P really can swap out early expansions for faster army to punish a weakness they see/defend (reactively, not planned). In TvZ, Zerg can change how fast he wants to drone + put up spines if threatened by a 2rax or earlier all-in. P can choose to chrono different buildings but it doesn't make the same effect because 1 gate, even chrono boosted for faster army, will not stand up to T super early all-ins and T has completely stagnant production based on how early he puts up production facilities. Now we go to the 7 minute mark where both players likely have their expansion up. Build dependent with player consistency, both players will have the same amount of army 10 games in a row. Same will be at the 14 minute mark if neither player decides to attack. Protoss continually gets stronger and has stable growth in economy at a faster rate than terran can keep up with, as Toss tech is much stronger than Terran tech in this MU. (Ghosts are powerful, but in time to build two collosi, for T to defend he must spend much more money on vikings and find the collosi before getting sniped by stalkers.) The problem, I believe, lies in how stable growth is a mechanic of both races and that the army strength curve for terran increases quicker and earlier than protoss (early and midgame) but that the protoss curve increases at a more dramatic rate for a longer span of time later in the game, once they have their first "techy" units out (immortals, collosus, HT, Archon, DT). Given pro level skillsets for both players, T needs to either innovate or get a patch to help hit-and-run against protoss tech units to keep their army from getting exponentially stronger. Thanks for reading, I hope that my Platinum level understanding didn't ruin this entire thought process. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 07 2012 00:16 Xalorian wrote: Another one with a TvP of 30%, lol. Why are those "Below master" are fucking whining in this thread if this thread have no relevance to them? This make no sense, sorry. And, I will repeat it : blizzard income from SC2 do NOT come from low level players playing casually, and will never be. Those players have already bought the game, anyway, so eh? And you do understand that probably half if not more of those who bought the game are playing only custom games and are absolutly not competitive? And that the other half care more about high level play than their own play, because they are following the scene? And you do understand that blizzard probably make way more money from sponsoring tournament, from receiving money from tournamenet and organisation for "rights" of using their games, and from all the people that heard of the scene because of tournament and etc and have bought the game afterward? Saying that blizzard need to start balacing the game toward low level players to make money is retarded, sorry. The game is that popular only because SC1 was competitive and balanced toward high level players, in the first place. And no, blizzard is not balancing toward low and high level players. It is only balanced toward high level players and it's fine this way. Don't worry. Blizzard know how to make money and they don't need tips. I really don't the logic either. I also love the "my TvP is around 30% wins, but I have no proof of that, I am just saying it. Also I happen to be in masters and I'm amazing at TvZ, which is how I avoid getting demoted." All that tells me is that your really bad at that match up. You know why? Because I see Liquid Hero and JYP losing to really good terrans. SC 2 is great because it is a hard game, you always need to improve and there is room to do so. Making claims that terrans need 100s more AMP that their opponents to be able to defeat them in the late game silly. I am sure if their protoss oppenents were here, they would have a different story to tell about the amount of effort it took to beat the terrans. | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
On January 06 2012 23:09 ZenithM wrote: Ok, so I'll restate what I said earlier. According to every random ladder Terran: - They all have a shitty TvP winrate, at most 30% (it's always 30% in their posts) - TvT naturally is a 50% winrate matchup over all ladder Terrans. - Blizzard system is designed to give you 50% winrate. --> Hence, they all have a pretty fucking good TvZ winrate. Every single fucking Terran rocks at TvZ. There we go, TvZ is imbalanced and unwinnable for Zerg. Is that what it is, my dear random Terrans? And btw, I can't see how we can still discuss "Terran worst race" when we see that Terran is still way ahead... At least when Protoss was whining, the pro winrates were at like 30%, there was a "reason" to whine, somewhat. Same for Zerg in ZvP, it did look rough for them a long time ago. I play Random at mid-high Masters. Not sure how it is for other players who play more than one race, but Terran is insanely hard above Diamond/low Masters. TvP is more than doable as long as you don't go to 3/4 base macro game (full tech trees). Pretty sure the long games are why people complain. It's my honest opinion (+ quite a few pros...) that TvP is essentially unwinnable barring mistakes once full tech trees are up. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
On January 07 2012 03:21 oxxo wrote: I play Random at mid-high Masters. Not sure how it is for other players who play more than one race, but Terran is insanely hard above Diamond/low Masters. TvP is more than doable as long as you don't go to 3/4 base macro game (full tech trees). Pretty sure the long games are why people complain. It's my honest opinion (+ quite a few pros...) that TvP is essentially unwinnable barring mistakes once full tech trees are up. If TvP is unwinnable with tech trees up, then it means that in order to get 50% win ratio, the early game must be heavily imbalanced in favor of terran. I dont really think the matchup is in a good place, it seems almost universally hated right now. | ||
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Xalorian
Canada433 Posts
On January 07 2012 03:21 oxxo wrote: I play Random at mid-high Masters. Not sure how it is for other players who play more than one race, but Terran is insanely hard above Diamond/low Masters. TvP is more than doable as long as you don't go to 3/4 base macro game (full tech trees). Pretty sure the long games are why people complain. It's my honest opinion (+ quite a few pros...) that TvP is essentially unwinnable barring mistakes once full tech trees are up. EVEN if it would be true that the late game is imbalanced and protoss favored, the fact that Terran have an higher than 50% winrate, mean that if the late game was balanced, then Terran would be fucking imba. So what do we nerf early and late game and what do we buff late game, eh? 100% balanced in every aspect of the game is impossible if there is more than one race, simply because some race will have different pro/con because of their different mechanic... saying that the late game is unwinnable is a plain bullshit. Saying that it is harder may be true, but since Terran have 55% winrate, I would say that it is completly fine this way. Don't start stating that Terran players are better and that's why they are winning more than 50% of the time while being underpower, because that's simply not true. If Terran are a bit OP in the mid game but are a bit UP in the late game, and that we have globally a winrate between 45-55% for the pros, then it is balanced. To any Terran saying that the matchup is imbalanced, I dare you to send me a replay of a TvP that you should have won, that you were more skilled, but lost because of imbalance. If you can't find one, then i'm sorry, you can't state that, at all. | ||
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Musketeer
142 Posts
The issue has NOTHING to do with balance. It has nothing to do with one race taking "more skill" which both sides try to convince themselves to make themselves feel better when they lose. You know there's something going on when both parties claim to have a 30% winrate and both parties claim to find lategame impossible. It's not balance, it's just a boring matchup that nobody enjoys playing. There's no reason for either player (especially Protoss because T has drops/harassment options) to ever attack until they're maxed. And for both players, the tiniest most insubstantial mistake will lose you the game. For both P and T, when you lose a battle, you almost always get smashed; there are almost never close battles in PvT and it usually comes down to one big one. | ||
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