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On January 03 2012 03:28 Gurafity wrote:
These data come from the pros, and is not representative of all players. P>T in lowers leagues.
This. The reason that Terran players complain is that every terran player is not MVP or Puma. These statistics prove that terran might be better on tip top play. But for the rest of the world it's not like this and the majority of low level players think that protoss is way stronger.
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On January 07 2012 04:16 AceTenRyu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 03:28 Gurafity wrote:
These data come from the pros, and is not representative of all players. P>T in lowers leagues. This. The reason that Terran players complain is that every terran player is not MVP or Puma. These statistics prove that terran might be better on tip top play. But for the rest of the world it's not like this and the majority of low level players think that protoss is way stronger.
ok then get better, I don't understand the problem here
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It seems like Koreans have achieved slightly more balance than foreign players in general. Otherwise, Protoss is kind of screwed against Terrans and Zergs. lol
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It's absolutely retarded that TvP is starting to heavily favor Terran once again. I won't doubt that we'll hear more Protoss QQ Terran imba after seeing these results. But really, you can't say that you haven't had enough buffs to get good at the match up because that is just completely wrong. And how are you going to say that Terran needs another nerf to even up the statistics in the TvP match up. IMO Protoss just aren't adapting and getting better to Terran play. If EMP radius reduction wasn't a big enough difference for Protoss to start actually winning games then maybe they need actually work on tactics such as positioning and spllitting your forces better or perhaps start innovating on different effective strategies. I just don't see any excuse in why the results ended up that way because it literally makes 0% sense that after being "heavily nerfed" Terran just suddenly got even more imba
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Terran is still OP
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 02 2012 21:59 StarcraftNerd1547 wrote:
I think the thing about TvP is that unless you have godly micro as T it's incredibly hard to win a late game engagement as terran. The reason why terran though is favored in these charts though is that in pro-level terrans has that micro which i was talking about and protoss can't do much about about it as TvP engagements is mostly about what terran does. If terran does a shit job and misses all EMP and gets his vikings kiled before defeating the toss army he loses, if he hits all EMP and kills every collosi before they can do significant damage he wins. This is why pros with good micro wins TvP and gold-level scrubs loses it.
I feel like the matchup needs a rework.
So what you're saying is that in a late game scenario 200 vs 200 army. A gold terran player (we can assume that his micro is absolutely bad) will almost always lose to a gold Protoss player because the micro ability of the terran player is no where near GM/High Master while in the Protoss case, it doesn't really matter what Protoss does in engagements, a simple gold level 1a will do the job in most Leagues. Seems pretty balanced to me.
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On January 07 2012 04:44 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
It's absolutely retarded that TvP is starting to heavily favor Terran once again. I won't doubt that we'll hear more Protoss QQ Terran imba after seeing these results. But really, you can't say that you haven't had enough buffs to get good at the match up because that is just completely wrong. And how are you going to say that Terran needs another nerf to even up the statistics in the TvP match up. IMO Protoss just aren't adapting and getting better to Terran play. If EMP radius reduction wasn't a big enough difference for Protoss to start actually winning games then maybe they need actually work on tactics such as positioning and spllitting your forces better or perhaps start innovating on different effective strategies. I just don't see any excuse in why the results ended up that way because it literally makes 0% sense that after being "heavily nerfed" Terran just suddenly got even more imba
Maybe terran players are actually better then protoss players :O
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On January 07 2012 05:05 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 04:44 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
It's absolutely retarded that TvP is starting to heavily favor Terran once again. I won't doubt that we'll hear more Protoss QQ Terran imba after seeing these results. But really, you can't say that you haven't had enough buffs to get good at the match up because that is just completely wrong. And how are you going to say that Terran needs another nerf to even up the statistics in the TvP match up. IMO Protoss just aren't adapting and getting better to Terran play. If EMP radius reduction wasn't a big enough difference for Protoss to start actually winning games then maybe they need actually work on tactics such as positioning and spllitting your forces better or perhaps start innovating on different effective strategies. I just don't see any excuse in why the results ended up that way because it literally makes 0% sense that after being "heavily nerfed" Terran just suddenly got even more imba Maybe terran players are actually better then protoss players :O
Occam's razor states otherwise. It more likely that the meta game has shifted to protoss may have an edge in the late game. However, it is likely that new terran styles of play will emerge that will address this. Also, the graphs do not support any of the arguments that terran players are doing badly. Still some players will argue that terran they are so much better than their opponents and the only reason protoss wins is because they are the A-move race.
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On January 07 2012 05:05 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 04:44 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
It's absolutely retarded that TvP is starting to heavily favor Terran once again. I won't doubt that we'll hear more Protoss QQ Terran imba after seeing these results. But really, you can't say that you haven't had enough buffs to get good at the match up because that is just completely wrong. And how are you going to say that Terran needs another nerf to even up the statistics in the TvP match up. IMO Protoss just aren't adapting and getting better to Terran play. If EMP radius reduction wasn't a big enough difference for Protoss to start actually winning games then maybe they need actually work on tactics such as positioning and spllitting your forces better or perhaps start innovating on different effective strategies. I just don't see any excuse in why the results ended up that way because it literally makes 0% sense that after being "heavily nerfed" Terran just suddenly got even more imba Maybe terran players are actually better then protoss players :O
That's what he's saying. :p
But we see more and more all in in tvp since it seems that late game somehow favor protoss.
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On January 07 2012 04:25 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 04:16 AceTenRyu wrote:On January 03 2012 03:28 Gurafity wrote:
These data come from the pros, and is not representative of all players. P>T in lowers leagues. This. The reason that Terran players complain is that every terran player is not MVP or Puma. These statistics prove that terran might be better on tip top play. But for the rest of the world it's not like this and the majority of low level players think that protoss is way stronger. ok then get better, I don't understand the problem here
You can't "just get better" and hop into master league. srsly it's not that easy. If the real solution to everything was to just get better protoss wouldn't even complain at PvT and they would just get better
EDIT: I know the real solution is to get better but it's not really that simple as you make it sound
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On January 07 2012 05:54 AceTenRyu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 04:25 biology]major wrote:On January 07 2012 04:16 AceTenRyu wrote:On January 03 2012 03:28 Gurafity wrote:
These data come from the pros, and is not representative of all players. P>T in lowers leagues. This. The reason that Terran players complain is that every terran player is not MVP or Puma. These statistics prove that terran might be better on tip top play. But for the rest of the world it's not like this and the majority of low level players think that protoss is way stronger. ok then get better, I don't understand the problem here You can't "just get better" and hop into master league. srsly it's not that easy. If the real solution to everything was to just get better protoss wouldn't even complain at PvT and they would just get better EDIT: I know the real solution is to get better but it's not really that simple as you make it sound
No one said it was simple or easy, its just understood that sc is an incredibly difficult game to get good at. It takes massive amounts of time and hardwork, something low level players do not put in. Then they complain that the matchup is imbalanced at "their" level. It does not make any sense
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On January 07 2012 00:16 Xalorian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 23:39 Rye. wrote:
@ZenithM
Im plat terran. My TvP is 30%, my TvZ is 70%....go figure.
@Xalorian
The winrates are from TL database. They have almost no relevance to the ladder. Most people that whine are below masters league. So these graphs have even less relevance to them. Another one with a TvP of 30%, lol. Why are those "Below master" are fucking whining in this thread if this thread have no relevance to them? This make no sense, sorry. And, I will repeat it : blizzard income from SC2 do NOT come from low level players playing casually, and will never be. Those players have already bought the game, anyway, so eh? And you do understand that probably half if not more of those who bought the game are playing only custom games and are absolutly not competitive? And that the other half care more about high level play than their own play, because they are following the scene? And you do understand that blizzard probably make way more money from sponsoring tournament, from receiving money from tournamenet and organisation for "rights" of using their games, and from all the people that heard of the scene because of tournament and etc and have bought the game afterward? Saying that blizzard need to start balacing the game toward low level players to make money is retarded, sorry. The game is that popular only because SC1 was competitive and balanced toward high level players, in the first place. And no, blizzard is not balancing toward low and high level players. It is only balanced toward high level players and it's fine this way. Don't worry. Blizzard know how to make money and they don't need tips.
I don't agree with this.
I was a diamond player. I got bored with the game during the extended "sad zealot" period that lasted most of this year and mostly stopped playing. I wasn't close to a pro, but I also knew that I never would be because I have a life outside of this game. I lost interest because the game isn't balanced at diamond level; it makes the game feel flawed. I don't care if it's balanced at some perfect level of play that I would never achieve; if I'm going to put my time in I want it to be balanced for me. So I mostly stopped playing, but I continued to watch the GSL and a few streams for entertainment.
I'm gamer, though, and just watching from the sidelines doesn't cut it for me. So I started playing LoL instead. Shortly thereafter I stopped playing SC2 completely and stopped watching streams and tournaments because I...just moved on. I check this forum on TL every Friday to see whether some new patch of awesomeness is pending that would make me interested in the game again. From what I've seen of HotS, it doesn't look interesting enough to pay for when there are more fun games in the genre that are 100% free like LoL.
Starcraft 2 may as well bear a warning label, "Not for casual play". Not because it's hard, but because it's not balanced at the levels of skill that casual players can reach. It leads to people giving up on playing the game out of frustration. People who stop playing eventually stop watching tournaments too, and that means they stop contributing to Blizzard's income. Gamers are not like couch-potato football fans who are content to cheer at a television set broadcasting a game they could never hope to play. Gamers care about games they can play themselves, on even footing with their competition.
Hell, even in football, it's one football team playing another football team at the game of football. It's not a football team playing against a cricket team at the game of polo. What does balance even mean in a game like SC2, outside of mirror-matches? In LoL it's so much more clearcut.
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On January 07 2012 07:45 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 00:16 Xalorian wrote:On January 06 2012 23:39 Rye. wrote:
@ZenithM
Im plat terran. My TvP is 30%, my TvZ is 70%....go figure.
@Xalorian
The winrates are from TL database. They have almost no relevance to the ladder. Most people that whine are below masters league. So these graphs have even less relevance to them. Another one with a TvP of 30%, lol. Why are those "Below master" are fucking whining in this thread if this thread have no relevance to them? This make no sense, sorry. And, I will repeat it : blizzard income from SC2 do NOT come from low level players playing casually, and will never be. Those players have already bought the game, anyway, so eh? And you do understand that probably half if not more of those who bought the game are playing only custom games and are absolutly not competitive? And that the other half care more about high level play than their own play, because they are following the scene? And you do understand that blizzard probably make way more money from sponsoring tournament, from receiving money from tournamenet and organisation for "rights" of using their games, and from all the people that heard of the scene because of tournament and etc and have bought the game afterward? Saying that blizzard need to start balacing the game toward low level players to make money is retarded, sorry. The game is that popular only because SC1 was competitive and balanced toward high level players, in the first place. And no, blizzard is not balancing toward low and high level players. It is only balanced toward high level players and it's fine this way. Don't worry. Blizzard know how to make money and they don't need tips. I don't agree with this. I was a diamond player. I got bored with the game during the extended "sad zealot" period that lasted most of this year and mostly stopped playing. I wasn't close to a pro, but I also knew that I never would be because I have a life outside of this game. I lost interest because the game isn't balanced at diamond level; it makes the game feel flawed. I don't care if it's balanced at some perfect level of play that I would never achieve; if I'm going to put my time in I want it to be balanced for me. So I mostly stopped playing, but I continued to watch the GSL and a few streams for entertainment. I'm gamer, though, and just watching from the sidelines doesn't cut it for me. So I started playing LoL instead. Shortly thereafter I stopped playing SC2 completely and stopped watching streams and tournaments because I...just moved on. I check this forum on TL every Friday to see whether some new patch of awesomeness is pending that would make me interested in the game again. From what I've seen of HotS, it doesn't look interesting enough to pay for when there are more fun games in the genre that are 100% free like LoL. Starcraft 2 may as well bear a warning label, "Not for casual play". Not because it's hard, but because it's not balanced at the levels of skill that casual players can reach. It leads to people giving up on playing the game out of frustration. People who stop playing eventually stop watching tournaments too, and that means they stop contributing to Blizzard's income. Gamers are not like couch-potato football fans who are content to cheer at a television set broadcasting a game they could never hope to play. Gamers care about games they can play themselves.
this sums up my thoughts pretty well.
you can't balance a game at the top level of play and expect it to be successful. people who buy the game expecting to play ladder want the game to be balanced for them and 99% of them are not pro.
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I don't agree with this.
I was a diamond player. I got bored with the game during the extended "sad zealot" period that lasted most of this year and mostly stopped playing. I wasn't close to a pro, but I also knew that I never would be because I have a life outside of this game. I lost interest because the game isn't balanced at diamond level; it makes the game feel flawed. I don't care if it's balanced at some perfect level of play that I would never achieve; if I'm going to put my time in I want it to be balanced for me. So I mostly stopped playing, but I continued to watch the GSL and a few streams for entertainment.
I'm gamer, though, and just watching from the sidelines doesn't cut it for me. So I started playing LoL instead. Shortly thereafter I stopped playing SC2 completely and stopped watching streams and tournaments because I...just moved on. I check this forum on TL every Friday to see whether some new patch of awesomeness is pending that would make me interested in the game again. From what I've seen of HotS, it doesn't look interesting enough to pay for when there are more fun games in the genre that are 100% free like LoL.
Starcraft 2 may as well bear a warning label, "Not for casual play". Not because it's hard, but because it's not balanced at the levels of skill that casual players can reach. It leads to people giving up on playing the game out of frustration. People who stop playing eventually stop watching tournaments too, and that means they stop contributing to Blizzard's income. Gamers are not like couch-potato football fans who are content to cheer at a television set broadcasting a game they could never hope to play. Gamers care about games they can play themselves.
No offense, but there was no reason to believe protoss was underpowered at a diamond level of play during the sad zealot period. I even think protoss is probably the strongest at such level because most can macro decent but not micro and terran has to kite and stuff. The real reason people stop playing this game is because it's such a mentally challenging game and the easiest thing to do is blame the game instead of yourself.
Occam's razor states otherwise. It more likely that the meta game has shifted to protoss may have an edge in the late game. However, it is likely that new terran styles of play will emerge that will address this. Also, the graphs do not support any of the arguments that terran players are doing badly. Still some players will argue that terran they are so much better than their opponents and the only reason protoss wins is because they are the A-move race.
Wouldn't be believing that Terran players are actually better be the simplest explanation? Seeing how there are so many variables involved into balancing, and also that terran has been the last couple of patches yet keep winning the same amount.
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On January 07 2012 07:45 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 00:16 Xalorian wrote:On January 06 2012 23:39 Rye. wrote:
@ZenithM
Im plat terran. My TvP is 30%, my TvZ is 70%....go figure.
@Xalorian
The winrates are from TL database. They have almost no relevance to the ladder. Most people that whine are below masters league. So these graphs have even less relevance to them. Another one with a TvP of 30%, lol. Why are those "Below master" are fucking whining in this thread if this thread have no relevance to them? This make no sense, sorry. And, I will repeat it : blizzard income from SC2 do NOT come from low level players playing casually, and will never be. Those players have already bought the game, anyway, so eh? And you do understand that probably half if not more of those who bought the game are playing only custom games and are absolutly not competitive? And that the other half care more about high level play than their own play, because they are following the scene? And you do understand that blizzard probably make way more money from sponsoring tournament, from receiving money from tournamenet and organisation for "rights" of using their games, and from all the people that heard of the scene because of tournament and etc and have bought the game afterward? Saying that blizzard need to start balacing the game toward low level players to make money is retarded, sorry. The game is that popular only because SC1 was competitive and balanced toward high level players, in the first place. And no, blizzard is not balancing toward low and high level players. It is only balanced toward high level players and it's fine this way. Don't worry. Blizzard know how to make money and they don't need tips. I don't agree with this. I was a diamond player. I got bored with the game during the extended "sad zealot" period that lasted most of this year and mostly stopped playing. I wasn't close to a pro, but I also knew that I never would be because I have a life outside of this game. I lost interest because the game isn't balanced at diamond level; it makes the game feel flawed. I don't care if it's balanced at some perfect level of play that I would never achieve; if I'm going to put my time in I want it to be balanced for me. So I mostly stopped playing, but I continued to watch the GSL and a few streams for entertainment. I'm gamer, though, and just watching from the sidelines doesn't cut it for me. So I started playing LoL instead. Shortly thereafter I stopped playing SC2 completely and stopped watching streams and tournaments because I...just moved on. I check this forum on TL every Friday to see whether some new patch of awesomeness is pending that would make me interested in the game again. From what I've seen of HotS, it doesn't look interesting enough to pay for when there are more fun games in the genre that are 100% free like LoL. Starcraft 2 may as well bear a warning label, "Not for casual play". Not because it's hard, but because it's not balanced at the levels of skill that casual players can reach. It leads to people giving up on playing the game out of frustration. People who stop playing eventually stop watching tournaments too, and that means they stop contributing to Blizzard's income. Gamers are not like couch-potato football fans who are content to cheer at a television set broadcasting a game they could never hope to play. Gamers care about games they can play themselves, on even footing with their competition. Hell, even in football, it's one football team playing another football team at the game of football. It's not a football team playing against a cricket team at the game of polo. What does balance even mean in a game like SC2, outside of mirror-matches? In LoL it's so much more clearcut.
I play at gold, and I don't believe the game is inbalanced because I can't micro/macro as well as the top players, that doesn't make it in balanced it makes it that I need to improve.
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So I still dont really understand terran has like 1% more wins than protoss overall = terran super op?
How does that logic work exactly.
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On January 07 2012 08:01 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +Occam's razor states otherwise. It more likely that the meta game has shifted to protoss may have an edge in the late game. However, it is likely that new terran styles of play will emerge that will address this. Also, the graphs do not support any of the arguments that terran players are doing badly. Still some players will argue that terran they are so much better than their opponents and the only reason protoss wins is because they are the A-move race. Wouldn't be believing that Terran players are actually better be the simplest explanation? Seeing how there are so many variables involved into balancing, and also that terran has been the last couple of patches yet keep winning the same amount.
isn't the easiest explantion: we have no intell about skill at all (it's not measurable at all), therefore our only way to balance the game is around statistics. If the statistics are independend from the gametime, even better (meaning early, mid and lategame wins are all 50:50). Right now blizzard is focusing on the overall 50:50 (and HotS), because it's the most important indicator of balance by far.
That's not to say that blizzard should immidiatly patch if winrates are slightly off, but if for some extended periode of time those are favoring one race blizzard should react, because imbalances have to be expected in such a young game. (for all we know and can expect, the start of beta balancing was probably made to work around the skill/gameknowledge of the developers at that time. Things like stutterstepping, magic box and specific BOs surly changed that severly)
Also it's kind of hard to say that "midgame" or "lategame" is flawed, if the winrates indicate 50:50. For all we know (or maybe it's better to say: for all we don't know, because the game is still extremly young), it could be just that players of a race with a better earlygame (>50%), worse lategame (<50%) are simply not setting up for the lategame in the right way, due to their playstyles working out overall very well.
But that's not even saying that such a MU does exist right now, as there is no statistics being released for it.
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On January 07 2012 05:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 05:05 Recognizable wrote:On January 07 2012 04:44 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
It's absolutely retarded that TvP is starting to heavily favor Terran once again. I won't doubt that we'll hear more Protoss QQ Terran imba after seeing these results. But really, you can't say that you haven't had enough buffs to get good at the match up because that is just completely wrong. And how are you going to say that Terran needs another nerf to even up the statistics in the TvP match up. IMO Protoss just aren't adapting and getting better to Terran play. If EMP radius reduction wasn't a big enough difference for Protoss to start actually winning games then maybe they need actually work on tactics such as positioning and spllitting your forces better or perhaps start innovating on different effective strategies. I just don't see any excuse in why the results ended up that way because it literally makes 0% sense that after being "heavily nerfed" Terran just suddenly got even more imba Maybe terran players are actually better then protoss players :O Occam's razor states otherwise. It more likely that the meta game has shifted to protoss may have an edge in the late game. However, it is likely that new terran styles of play will emerge that will address this. Also, the graphs do not support any of the arguments that terran players are doing badly. Still some players will argue that terran they are so much better than their opponents and the only reason protoss wins is because they are the A-move race.
No matter WHAT, a race will have better average players in it than the others. An perfect distribution of talent across the 3 races would be impossible. Is it that far fetched that in Korea, a country that celebrated and still celebrates BW like it was their national past time and where Terran has been the most popular race for 10 years (because of the icons that played it), there are better players playing Terran?
Tell me why you believe that the difference between Korean and foreign protoss players is substantially closer than the gap between their Terran-Terran and Zerg-Zerg counterparts? Is it because of a low skill cap? Or are the best Korean players not playing Toss? Do you believe that foreign Protoss players are just that good? What would the Vegas odds be for Thorzain/Kas/Major vs Mvp/MMA/Bomber? Idra/Nerchio/Ret vs Nestea/DRG/Losira? Naniwa/Huk/Mana vs MC/JYP? See what I'm saying?
If every Korean result was erased from the past year, in Korea and outside, would Terran have received these nerfs? They'd certainly have received the first few, but when's the last time a foreign Terran won a major live event? Jinro at DC? Someone who has been practicing in Korea and competed against foreigners? People say 'get better.' But at what point does the 'get better' motto stop applying? When you get to a Korean skill level? Think about it man, not all of us can be among the 1%.
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On January 07 2012 05:54 AceTenRyu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 04:25 biology]major wrote:On January 07 2012 04:16 AceTenRyu wrote:On January 03 2012 03:28 Gurafity wrote:
These data come from the pros, and is not representative of all players. P>T in lowers leagues. This. The reason that Terran players complain is that every terran player is not MVP or Puma. These statistics prove that terran might be better on tip top play. But for the rest of the world it's not like this and the majority of low level players think that protoss is way stronger. ok then get better, I don't understand the problem here You can't "just get better" and hop into master league. srsly it's not that easy. If the real solution to everything was to just get better protoss wouldn't even complain at PvT and they would just get better EDIT: I know the real solution is to get better but it's not really that simple as you make it sound
It really is. Just play more and get better. If you're not good enough to be at least master league you don't understand the game enough to justifiably act like you know enough to complain about imbalance. The game is completely different even between the top and bottom of master, you might as well be playing something else if you're in gold.
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P is taking over PvZ completely.... 
Edit: In korea i mean, it is where the stats actually matters.... lol
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EPT
