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On December 15 2011 20:49 gTank wrote:
seriously, i cant believe Naniwa fans anymore...
first naniwa does the proberush and obviously lots of ppl are either shocked, outraged, disappointed
-> nah, he didnt do anything wrong
next, as consequence to that behaviour he loses his Code S seed
-> nah, he didnt do anything wrong
after that, even his team and himself apologize for his actions, explaining why he did that and how he realized it was a bad thing
-> nah, he didnt do anything wrong
finally, GOMTV explained why they revoked the seed, explained why they reacted to this
-> nah, he didnt anything wrong
its a huge and mature step to admitt he did something wrong and i respect him for apologizing, not for the bs he has done though. he might have not known about the consequences but not knowing makes you not immune to punishment, he is of full age ffs! what the hell do you expect GOMTV should have done? kindly talk to him and say "hey bro, we respect your opinion on not liking our tournament, but pretty please would you possible be so kind as to not disrespect our tournament in future? ok"
seriously, i cant believe GOM fans anymore...
first naniwa does the proberush and obviously lots of ppl are either entertained, surprized, thankful for a short meaningless game
-> yes, he didnt do anything wrong
next, as consequence to that behaviour he loses his Code S seed
-> wtf, did he do wrong? which rule?
after that, even his team and himself apologize for his actions, explaining why he did that and how he realized it was a bad thing
-> this was obviously a forced apology to appease emotionally-unstable korean tournament authority
finally, GOMTV explained why they revoked the seed, explained why they reacted to this
-> and showed that they really are emotional and unprofessional
First GOM should make a REAL set of RULES and stick to it.
Second GOM should make good formats with no meaningless games. (as no organizer should do)
Then we can talk.
I don't want progamers to play games which are meaningless AND if they have to - they should be allowed to move units like they want.
4gate is good / proberush bad -- what is this shit???
i wann see tripple robo mass observer. lol
or don't play or play your best - it is your game and nobodies else. no community no team. you earned this seed in tournament by fucking working hard and training your life away? you being one of the best, but have no life (like every professional athlete) and they have nothing to offer and force you to play stupid games. after that they punish you cuz you didn't move your units the way they like? f*** them. punish them.
don't buy their products until they apologize.
EDIT: i am no Naniwa fan, never was. I do like the underdogs. i like foreigner in korea 
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On December 15 2011 20:57 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 20:49 purpose wrote:On December 15 2011 20:41 Focuspants wrote:On December 15 2011 20:37 purpose wrote:On December 15 2011 20:32 FallDownMarigold wrote:On December 15 2011 20:26 Durin wrote:
Going say it again since no one even noticed it the first time.
Naniwa clearly didnt know he was breaking some code of conduct they hold up there players to.
And if the game was so importent why not check if a rematch could be done instead of just jump to punishment for something the player at the time didnt know was wrong according to there player conduct. Fallacy. Game was not important -- that was not the reason for his punishment. If you haven't gotten that by now, just get out with the trolling/blindsupport. We get it, you're from Sweden, you like Naniwa, but please respect the facts here. So all swedes just blindly defend Naniwa? I am from Sweden and I am the first to say that what he did was childis and not the best way to handle it. But still people get so freaking wind up over such a small issue. People say that Naniwa did wrong in not trying and what he should have done is PRETEND TO TRY. I mean wtf is up with that. its wrong not to try but its ok to go out and pretend that you care when in fact you dont. All in all the situation is stupied. Naniwa did a bad thing, he should have 4 gated. It was INAPROPRIATE, but thats about it. A statement from Gomtv would have been enough, maybe a smaller fine but nothing more. Just because he is Naniwa this got way out of hand. What if this would have been White-Ra, Ret, Tyler, Huk etc. No way would it have been such a huge thing. What you dont realize, is that his punishment was LESS THAN A FINE. His only "punishment" was not getting a gift, they were going to give him. They technically didnt take away anything that was his. A fine would have taken away money that was his. All GOM did was decide to invite someone different. The outrage against his actions is that "meaningless game" doesnt exist in a televised professional event. You are representing more than just yourself. He didnt present the product he was representing. Thus he didnt get a gift from the organization he misrepresented. This is an extremely reasonable response. I agree that it is a good point but still the entire thing exploaded to much. If GOMTV would have just made a statement that Naniwas game was not appropriate and that he would recive no money for the tourney etc then this would not have been a huge deal. To take away his chance to get seeded blew this up way out of proportion and that hurt both GOMTV / esport and Naniwa. No, Naniwas fans, deicding what happened, and what the consequences should be, blew this out of proportion. Wait for a press release. Period. You agrred that my point is a good one. If people would have waited instead of raging, this wouldnt have happened.
But that applies to the haters aswell. Nobody waited, both sides direct started to argue. The antifans just threw shit on naniwa and said that it was so good that he was kicked out of GSL and so on.
Even if people would have waited, GOMTV still fucked up and handled this very poor.
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On December 15 2011 20:11 The Void wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 19:57 SnePe wrote:On December 15 2011 19:34 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 19:13 kcbgoku wrote:On December 15 2011 18:50 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 18:38 kcbgoku wrote:If by "match is a match" you are really saying football match = sc2 match = volleyball match then this is just hopeless case or troll so i'll just pass. you said format creates a meaningless situation where both teams face each other with 0-3 record. Yes I did and yes it does. what are you talking about? whether it is a soccer match, football match or rock paper scissor match, this format has possibility of creating the situation. Are you saying the ONLY reason there is no meaningless game in world cup is because they have to play it out? Have you even watched any world cup where players play for honor and professionalism? Besides, who decide it is a meaningless game? a group of fans? players? can you imagine a team in world cup not even trying because they are arelady 0-3 and facing another 0-3? No they at least owe it to audience, fans and spirit of the competition to play out well. what you say makes no sense when you say this format is flawed. I didn't say this format is flawed everywhere in our universe. It won't work in tournament like this. Noone decides it's meaningless. It just is. Even GOM said that. If you care or not that just depends on you or your team. And you try as hard as you care. You wan't to tell that every friendly match or match for "honor" is played out with 100% engagement? Please. Teams play with reserve players, pass balls with 0 aggression. And maybe that's not the only reason, but it's a big reason why they play pointless matches - because they have to. Also matches are scheduled for millions of wievers and with break between matches so you don't play exhausted or with bad mindset because you just lost 3 other matches 20 minutes ago. nice so let's ignore sc2 viewers who wanted to see that scheduled match because they are not important. btw there was a break in between the game. if you followed what people were saying, they werent even asking for 80% game. if he 4 gated or cannon rushed, I would have been fine. Also there is no meaningless game on televised game where sponsors pay big money. To just throw away the game in Naniwa's fashion is hugely unprofessional. Did you even read Naniwa's statement? He only thought of himself and was selfish. man I wont waste my time anymore on guys like you who think professional can just quit whenever they like if they find it stupid. I have better things to do. I don't mean to single you out but I do have a couple of questions for you and people that reason in this way. You say cannon rush or 4gate is OK, you would have accepted that but who decides where to draw the line? Is one base carrier OK? Proxy 9 gates? Double nexus on 15? Inbase nexus -> 50 probe rush? 15 nexus, 4 gas then nothing but pure sentry? Mothership+DT of one base? Tripple robo mass observer? Double gas on 11 into super fast DT? How silly of a strategy is one allowed to use for it to be "fine" and who decides what is acceptable and what is not? If 1 gate into one base carrier is OK for you, then someone that does a 7 probe rush has a bigger chance of winning. I don't think it is right to throw a game like that but I do understand it. Ye.. those who say "he has to play his best no matter what" never have been in a competition losing 3 games in a row. this oppinion only leads into silly 4gates and you never know if the player is actually play for real. next time a dumb organization makes a tourney with meaningless games i want to Tripple robo mass observer xD JUST TO OFFEND THEM, for making bad formats.
It's funny because Naniwa defeated MVP with a triple robo build at MLG.
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On December 15 2011 20:07 legatus legionis wrote:Ok. When people say, good statement, great response, well said and so on. Would you mind actually telling us how you come to that conclusion? Which parts it are that make it so great and why those parts are valid? What it is that you agree with and why. Show nested quote +"Your being watched by 10k+ Live viewers and hundreds of thousands more on VoDs. Come on." There is no argument here. You cannot just type this because it has no purpose, it just states an observation. Come on only implies that you won't type the reasoning because it's so natural and obvious, if you can't see it, you must be stupid. Which is like a predetermined ad hominem. Rather than break someone apart as a reaction you set yourself up as the one that can never be broken. You were playing the game. The map was antiga shipyard. It was played in Korea. Thousands of people were watching. Why does that in particular hold any value? It doesn't matter if I don't care but I just don't care. I didn't even watch the game lol. He lost after he lost vs MMA and I stopped watching. I don't want to be entertained, I don't need a show. I just want to see the competition and the game. The beauty of what is inside that game is what allows me to entertain myself. Everything else is just an addition and expansion. Not the primary part. For me at least. So I don't feel entitled to any of that. Why do you guys think you do? Make arguments and explain your reasoning. If you don't and just post empty comments, I think you shouldn't even be posting because it's worthless.
Because in Korea you play not only for yourself, but also for your fans. Even more so than in the US / EU. Notice how all Koreans thank their fans so rigorously in their interviews?
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2011 21:10 The Void wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 20:49 gTank wrote:
seriously, i cant believe Naniwa fans anymore...
first naniwa does the proberush and obviously lots of ppl are either shocked, outraged, disappointed
-> nah, he didnt do anything wrong
next, as consequence to that behaviour he loses his Code S seed
-> nah, he didnt do anything wrong
after that, even his team and himself apologize for his actions, explaining why he did that and how he realized it was a bad thing
-> nah, he didnt do anything wrong
finally, GOMTV explained why they revoked the seed, explained why they reacted to this
-> nah, he didnt anything wrong
its a huge and mature step to admitt he did something wrong and i respect him for apologizing, not for the bs he has done though. he might have not known about the consequences but not knowing makes you not immune to punishment, he is of full age ffs! what the hell do you expect GOMTV should have done? kindly talk to him and say "hey bro, we respect your opinion on not liking our tournament, but pretty please would you possible be so kind as to not disrespect our tournament in future? ok" seriously, i cant believe GOM fans anymore... first naniwa does the proberush and obviously lots of ppl are either entertained, surprized, thankful for a short meaningless game
-> yes, he didnt do anything wrongnext, as consequence to that behaviour he loses his Code S seed -> wtf, did he do wrong? which rule?after that, even his team and himself apologize for his actions, explaining why he did that and how he realized it was a bad thing -> this was obviously a forced apology to appease emotionally-unstable korean tournament authorityfinally, GOMTV explained why they revoked the seed, explained why they reacted to this -> and showed that they really are emotional and unprofessional
First GOM should make a REAL set of RULES and stick to it. Second GOM should make good formats with no meaningless games. (as no organizer should do) Then we can talk. I don't want progamers to play games which are meaningless AND if they have to - they should be allowed to move units like they want. 4gate is good / proberush bad -- what is this shit??? i wann see tripple robo mass observer. lol or don't play or play your best - it is your game and nobodies else. no community no team. you earned this seed in tournament by fucking working hard and training your life away? you being one of the best, but have no life (like every professional athlete) and they have nothing to offer and force you to play stupid games. after that they punish you cuz you didn't move your units the way they like? f*** them. punish them.don't buy their products until they apologize. EDIT: i am no Naniwa fan, never was. I do like the underdogs. i like foreigner in korea
and im no GOM fan either but still, if i would have paid for a ticket for Blizzard Cup, and have been eager to see the match between Naniwa and Nestea, which lots of ppl wanted to see, i would be disappointed a lot. and i agree that this whole situation might have been prevented by GOM in the first place but even if the format is not made up well, you have to play by that. the time to discuss the format is before the tournament or after, and definitely not by proberushing and pouting with his arms crossed like naniwa did
the mindset to begin with is wrong imo, as a top athlete, every kind of competition should be taken seriously.
ps: im a fan of foreigners in korea too, but i support Thorzain 
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wRdYO.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On December 15 2011 21:33 epicdemic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 20:07 legatus legionis wrote:Ok. When people say, good statement, great response, well said and so on. Would you mind actually telling us how you come to that conclusion? Which parts it are that make it so great and why those parts are valid? What it is that you agree with and why. "Your being watched by 10k+ Live viewers and hundreds of thousands more on VoDs. Come on." There is no argument here. You cannot just type this because it has no purpose, it just states an observation. Come on only implies that you won't type the reasoning because it's so natural and obvious, if you can't see it, you must be stupid. Which is like a predetermined ad hominem. Rather than break someone apart as a reaction you set yourself up as the one that can never be broken. You were playing the game. The map was antiga shipyard. It was played in Korea. Thousands of people were watching. Why does that in particular hold any value? It doesn't matter if I don't care but I just don't care. I didn't even watch the game lol. He lost after he lost vs MMA and I stopped watching. I don't want to be entertained, I don't need a show. I just want to see the competition and the game. The beauty of what is inside that game is what allows me to entertain myself. Everything else is just an addition and expansion. Not the primary part. For me at least. So I don't feel entitled to any of that. Why do you guys think you do? Make arguments and explain your reasoning. If you don't and just post empty comments, I think you shouldn't even be posting because it's worthless. Because in Korea you play not only for yourself, but also for your fans. Even more so than in the US / EU. Notice how all Koreans thank their fans so rigorously in their interviews?
Have you not read what Naniwa has said? He clearly states that he he felt he would be letting is fans down by giving them a half hearted game in which he couldnt stay true to himself and he thinks they deserve better than that. He thougth that it would be better to forget about this meaningless game and wait for a real oppurtunity to give the fans something special. To bad so many ppl only see business and dollars and fail to see the beautiful gesture this actually is to real sc2 fans.
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On December 15 2011 20:42 Durin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 20:39 mordk wrote:
Great statement from GOM. It's pretty clear they've been reading TL forums closely hahaha, they pretty much dealt with every point that arose in this forum. If they are reading the forum why not go out and say he is consider for a code S seed but its not a given becuse im sure you go back and check the threads about MLG you will find text saying naniwa earned a code S spot
I think you should go to the finer details here. It's obvious that at the point of getting Providence 2nd place he had effectively earned a place. However, in the midst of that came the format change, and apparently that's where this MLG slot passed from being "earning a spot" to "be considered for invite".
I can't really say what's the correct answer, Id' like to see what MLG has to say about this.
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On December 15 2011 20:39 mordk wrote:
I can't really say what's the correct answer, Id' like to see what MLG has to say about this.
From Slasher's twitter:
Slasher Rod Breslau
Providence did not award Naniwa a Code S spot, only the Blizzard Cup. He was going to be given Code S, that which was revoked. Not as bad.
Btw Slasher is MLG's employee.
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so in short tournements can do what they want?
Change that will affect future tournements should be posted or written about before hand not afterwards this is my big concern.
Since its leaves tournements open to do what they want pretty much and no obligation to hold what the said?
what if MLG after the tournement said the prizes would not be given out becuse a change in the tournement then all employs of MLG just post saying that it was known before but no one outside of MLG knew about it?
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On December 15 2011 21:51 Mayd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 20:39 mordk wrote:
I can't really say what's the correct answer, Id' like to see what MLG has to say about this. From Slasher's twitter: Slasher Rod Breslau Providence did not award Naniwa a Code S spot, only the Blizzard Cup. He was going to be given Code S, that which was revoked. Not as bad. Btw Slasher is MLG's employee.
and MLG staff already said that this is not true but only his opinion...if you search for that in one of the millions Naniwa threads you will find them, it might be in that closed thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294713
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PROTIP: Whining or arguing about whether or not GOMTV or Naniwa was right or wrong will not solve anything. The decision is made and over with. Time to move on!
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On December 15 2011 22:08 turamn wrote:
PROTIP: Whining or arguing about whether or not GOMTV or Naniwa was right or wrong will not solve anything. The decision is made and over with. Time to move on!
Cool. Just hope that GOM refunds my $100! :D
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On December 15 2011 22:28 justinpal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 22:08 turamn wrote:
PROTIP: Whining or arguing about whether or not GOMTV or Naniwa was right or wrong will not solve anything. The decision is made and over with. Time to move on! Cool. Just hope that GOM refunds my $100! :D
Why? Because they make sure that no one drops matches on purpose?
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Supporting GOM in this one.
People have trouble adjusting to the "rules" of the country they want to participate in.
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This explains so much. It sucks that Naniwa is going to have to re-qualify but at least he isn't banned
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On December 15 2011 22:28 justinpal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 22:08 turamn wrote:
PROTIP: Whining or arguing about whether or not GOMTV or Naniwa was right or wrong will not solve anything. The decision is made and over with. Time to move on! Cool. Just hope that GOM refunds my $100! :D
Their return policy is three days. If you are within that time frame, i am sure they will be happy to refund it. Otherwise, good luck. I really don't understand why people think that this decision entitles them to a refund. I payed for Starcraft 2, but Blizzard removed Void Ray speed...better get a refund because I don't like it. Must suck to be worried about 100 bucks 
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Would've been nicer to not have this drama with so little of the year left but it is what it is. I hope something like this won't happen again, not at this level at least.
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It's simple. If you wanna act like an amateur in Korea, you will be treated like an amateur. How hard could it have been to play 1 more game. An example is Hero, a protoss player. The day before he was 0-3 in his group and guess what NaNiWa he played his 4th and final game not with bitterness but like a professional. I hope you learn from this mistake. I don't care if you are from somewhere else and customs / culture are different. Manner up and get on the level of your Korean counterparts. Still a NaNiWa fan 4 life but this brings me down especially as a protoss player myself.
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EPT
