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On December 15 2011 15:36 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 15:28 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:21 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:14 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 14:57 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:43 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 14:39 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:35 akalarry wrote:On December 15 2011 14:29 Bogeyman wrote:
Wait what?
I was just starting to think it was all good the way it was, but now they say they changed the way they invite players and that Naniwa didn't get a code S spot in MLG Providence.
What I want to know is who the hell was informed about this up until just now? Was there anyone at MLG who knew this at Providence? I sincerely hope you're not taking this the wrong way and ban me or something, but as I realize what this all entails I'm getting pretty pissed, and I've even been calm throughout this whole debacle up until now.
So you silently let all the players at MLG Providence and all the viewers rooting for our favorite players think they would get a Code S seed so long as they were the top player in the top 3 that wasn't already in Code S. You silently let all of us get our hopes up seeing our favorite players win match after match, getting that much closer to their dreams and the hopes of their fans.
This isn't even about Naniwa anymore. Screw that, I don't care about that anymore. You didn't inform a living soul as you changed the rules so that the struggles (towards getting that Code S seed, I'm not talking about the prize money for MLG Providence) of all those players would mean absolutely nothing, giving yourselves the power to pick whoever you saw fit among the top players around the world. That is utterly disrespectful towards the players and the fans.
So please, I implore you, tell me that isn't the case. Show us that you had communicated this to the players or their teams or the MLG Staff! Someone, step up and say "I knew about this all along, Naniwa never actually had a seed"! Show us the announcement where you explained how the new deal would work for MLG Providence and forward! Or maybe it never actually was a "deal" per se but rather a "buddy agreement" or something that you can change without notice?
Please someone explain to me what I'm missing here, or to me at least this whole controversy just exploded. if naniwa gets code s seed from the mlg-gsl exchange program, did MLG pay and send 4 players and seed them directly into that tournaments championship bracket? What you're doing is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going *LA LA LA LA LA*. Yes, let's ignore that it was everyones belief that naniwa had qualified for code S. Him, his team, MLG and the foreign community as a whole. And that GOM never took any steps to correct this belief, until the day after the match between naniwa and nestea took place. And that 1) GOM originally called it a ban on twitter (until later removed), 2) according to some it was stated on their homepage (until later removed) 3) it was referred to as such by Tastosis 4) the rules for their cooperation with MLG implies it 5) Naniwa uncorrected referred to his spot on the media day at the blizzard cup. And that MLG themselves refer to the league exchange program for Providence: http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mc-mma-bomber-and-mvp-to-mlg-providenceAre you being serious? Yes and what you link to is completely untruthful. Bomber, MC, and MMA were placed in the champion bracket because of their past performance. MLG did NOT pay for MVP to travel, that was QxG, as you can confirm by looking in the thread announcing the partnership on TL. Further the exchange program said they were be seeded, which MVP was not. So you're just trusting MLG over GOM, which I suppose you're entitled to do. It appears to me that they both terminated the agreement for Providence, or it wasn't applicable for some reason, and for some suspicious reason this wasn't communicated, perhaps because it was assumed GOM would be willing to give one of its foreigner seeds out to the winner of Providence, so it wouldn't actually matter. Can you give me any sensible explanation for why GOM would wait from Providence and until the day after the naniwa vs nestea match before informaing anyone (including a player who was establishing himself in S Korea under the impression that he had a code S seed) of the fact that Naniwa did in fact not have a birth for code S? And why GOM themselves originally referred to what happened to naniwa as a ban, that tastosis referred to naniwa as having his qualification spot removed and that they didn't correct naniwa when he referred to his spot in code S in the blizzard cup media day interviews? To take GOM at their word, they have deliberately misled, or for a month failed to correct, a player, a team, MLG and the whole western community about whether Providence would provide a code S spot. Do you want to believe that about GOM? Do you not find it a tad more believable, that rather this is a story that is being spun in order to handle a controversial situation? most ridiculous argument ever. it's not GOM's obligation to find out what's happening in the western community. it's not even their first language anyways. this is like expecting MLG to frequent PlayXP and Thisisgame to find out how korean netizens are reacting. here's a better question. why did GOM never contact Naniwa to inform him about his code s seeding when they have done so for all the past participants in MLG who received one? here's an answer, because there was no code s seeding. No, this is like expecting MLG to react if their partner GOM announces on their homepage, that after having won GSL December, Jjakji gets an automatic seed into the winners bracket of the first coming MLG, yet that not being the case. I would certainly expect MLG to correct that misinformation. Why wouldn't they? But you think naniwa should have deduced that he in fact didn't have a birth for code S, since it was only the MLG site, admins at MLG and all major news sources that told him that he had received such a spot, and not infact GOM? except your comparison fails because GomTV.net is a english site. the equivalent comparison would be for expecting MLG to find out about the news on a korean site. funny you have the expectation that koreans should frequent english sites and keep up to date with the latest information in the western thing but not the other way around. that doesn't even make sense. why the hell would Gom contact Naniwa to tell him that he didn't have a code s spot if they didn't even know he thought he had a code s spot? You may not know this, but GOM.tv has several representatives that posts on Team Liquid. You may also not know that GOM.tv employs 5 english-speaking casters, as well as a translator. Maybe you've heard of them. Do you really want to argue that for a month, GOM was unaware that the whole western community was under the belief that naniwa had a code S seed that he won at Providence? An event at which two of their casters worked. GOM wouldn't necessarily contact Naniwa, though why wouldn't they, but certainly MLG and possibly TL and inform them that their information, that Naniwa has received a spot in code S, is in fact wrong. Do you not think that it is in GOMs interest to avoid misinformation? of course i know. but how often do they frequent this site? not often. do they look at every topic? obviously not and why should they? do MLGs have korean representatives frequenting korean websites? no. was naniwa's announcement to code S in big red letters at the top of the site? no. do you really want to argue that the reason why GOM never contacted Naniwa about his code S when they did for everyone else who got it is because they anticipated the moment that Naniwa would leave a game against Nestea thus forcing them to retract the fact that the code s spot was ever awarded? give me a break. don't you think it is in MLG's interest to avoid misinformation? see how easy I can turn that around?
I'm sorry to ask, but where do you have the information of GOM contacting the previous qualifiers for code S through MLG? They were all Korean.
What I'm arguing is that the reason that EVERYONE was under the impression that naniwa had a birth spot for code S, as stated by GOMs american partner and all major news sites after Providence, and the reason that NO ONE knew of GOMs change of plans until yesterday, is that it is based on GOM spinning a story. Afraid of the backlash of their decision, GOM tells a story about naniwa actually not receiving the spot in the first place. They made a decision, but they won't own up to it.
To me, that seems a lot more reasonable than GOM being completely unaware of what their american partner and everyone involved in the western scene, including the casters working for them, took for granted. That Providence, like the previous MLG tournaments since Columbus, qualified one top 3 contender, not currently in Code S, for Code S. This is corroborated on several points, as pointed out in the quotes.
I think it is necessary to take a massive leap of faith in order to make GOMs story make any sense.
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On December 15 2011 15:52 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 15:48 Ninjahoe wrote:
As I said before, I really hope MLG apologize to NaNiwa for lying about his Code S spot. If this statement is true then it's MLG who tricked NaNi, and all the fans.
I also want to say to everyone, because it seems like nobody realize - GOM chose to broadcast that match. They knew that he pulled probes, they knew how upset the koreans would be. Still the chose to put it up on the screen, instead of saying there was a delay, pause the game and go and tell nani that either he plays the game seriously, or gtfo.
It's all GOM who wanted this publicity, and their fault the koreans feel what they feel. How were they supposed to know before Naniwa probe rushed that he was going to probe rush? You really think they could see the probe, pause the game, and explain to everyone watching live that what they saw just didn't happen?
They see what happens before showing it to the viewers, the probes were already out of naniwas base when they started broadcasting the game.
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I find this to be a shamefully self-serving response from GOM despite their constant appeal to serving their fans and the ethics of Esports. They place the blame solely on Naniwa while making no mention of a desire to fix their own faults in their tournament organization. Their mention of Naniwa never gaining a Code S spot from MLG Providence seems dubious at best. There are several sources from Providence, not only MLG, which confirmed that Naniwa would recieve a Code S spot from his performance:
From MLG: http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/news/naniwas-ascension
http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/news/going-out-with-a-bang-mlg-providence-starcraft-2-recap
http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/top-5-stories-from-mlg-providence
From Complexity, his team at the time: http://www.complexitygaming.com/news/3270/
From ESFI World, and independent Esports news source: http://esfiworld.com/sc2/news/naniwa-secures-top-3-finish-victory-over-huk
To confirm, this is the exact wording of the terms of the GSL/MLG partnership as stated officially by MLG ( http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mlg-and-the-gsl-create-groundbreaking-player-exchange-program ),
"Pro Circuit Players Competing in the GSL At MLG Columbus, the Top 3 non-Korean finishers will each be placed into GSL Code A. At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, within the Top 3, regardless of country of origin, who does not already have Code S status. Code S status will not be awarded if all of the players placing 1st-3rd already have Code S Status. Code A status will be awarded to the next three highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, or not awarded at all, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player."
Even if GOM is indeed correct and for some reason Providence was not included in the Code S seeding from MLG, they should have made this position clear long ago. It just seems too suspicious for them to only now make a clarification, when there was no dispute on this point in the past and no mention of any discrepancy in the terms were brought up by any other sources. It shows that GOM endorses deception of their fans and viewers simply so they can absolve themselves of any responsibility in the issue at all and are willing to throw their foreign partners under the bus despite being branded a "global" league.
Furthermore, they make absolutely no apologies or even admit any sort of mistake on their part for the format of the Blizzard Cup and how it precipitated this event in first place. In their own statement regarding the Naniwa incident they wrote, "By tolerating such behavior, purposefully losing might be deemed as a legitimate action and we might see more of such matches in the future, which is something that surely neither the fans nor the players would appreciate." Here they make an appeal to the fans' desires for better sportsmanship, but make no mention that it is their responsibility as well to make sure these extraneous matches aren't even included in the schedule, such as in their Code S group stages, because these matches by design cause players to be put in this unfortunate position and by no fault of their own will inherently put in less effort into the games.
Overall, GOM seems to be pandering to the outcry of the majority of their Korean fans and alienating the foreigners in this farce of a response by only defending their point of view. They do this while making no compromise for their own faults and while claiming to be a "global" league that equally represents the views of all parts of the StarCraft 2 Esports community. Needless to say, GOM will not be gaining my support from this statement and as such I do not plan on purchasing a 2012 season ticket, despite my previous desire to do so.
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The statement of GOM tv sounds ok but it is only public manipulation.
I just hope after this incident they will make the rules clear from the start and not changed it afterwards.
Also hope that naniwa not lost but gain a lot of fans with this incident.
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On December 15 2011 16:08 NeonSky wrote:I find this to be a shamefully self-serving response from GOM despite their constant appeal to serving their fans and the ethics of Esports. They place the blame solely on Naniwa while making no mention of a desire to fix their own faults in their tournament organization. Their mention of Naniwa never gaining a Code S spot from MLG Providence seems dubious at best. There are several sources form Providence, not only MLG, which confirmed that Naniwa would recieve a Code S spot from his performance: From MLG: http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/news/naniwas-ascensionhttp://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/news/going-out-with-a-bang-mlg-providence-starcraft-2-recaphttp://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/top-5-stories-from-mlg-providenceFrom Complexity, his team at the time: http://www.complexitygaming.com/news/3270/From ESFI World, and independent Esports news source: http://esfiworld.com/sc2/news/naniwa-secures-top-3-finish-victory-over-hukTo confirm, this is the exact wording of the terms of the GSL/MLG partnership as stated officially by MLG ( http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mlg-and-the-gsl-create-groundbreaking-player-exchange-program ), "Pro Circuit Players Competing in the GSL At MLG Columbus, the Top 3 non-Korean finishers will each be placed into GSL Code A. At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, within the Top 3, regardless of country of origin, who does not already have Code S status. Code S status will not be awarded if all of the players placing 1st-3rd already have Code S Status. Code A status will be awarded to the next three highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, or not awarded at all, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player." Even if GOM is indeed correct and for some reason Providence was not included in the Code S seeding from MLG, they should have made this position clear long ago. It just seems too suspicious for them to only now make a clarification, when there was no dispute on this point in the past and no mention of any discrepancy in the terms were brought up by any other sources. It shows that GOM endorses deception of their fans and viewers simply so they can absolve themselves of any responsibility in the issue at all and are willing to throw their foreign partners under the bus despite being branded a "global" league. Furthermore, they make absolutely no apologies or even admit any sort of mistake on their part for the format of the Blizzard Cup and how it precipitated this event in first place. In their own statement regarding the Naniwa incident they wrote, "By tolerating such behavior, purposefully losing might be deemed as a legitimate action and we might see more of such matches in the future, which is something that surely neither the fans nor the players would appreciate." Here they make an appeal to the fan's desires for better sportsmanship, but make no mention that it is their responsibility as well to make sure these extraneous matches aren't even included in the schedule, such as in their Code S group stages, because these matches by design cause players to be put in this unfortunate position and by no fault of their own will inherently put in less effort into the games. They are pandering to the outcry of the majority of their Korean fans and alienating the foreigners in this farce of a response by only defending their point of view while making no compromise for their own faults while claiming to be a "global" league and equally representing the views of the global esports community. Needless to say, GOM will not be gaining my support from this statement and as such I do not plan on purchasing a 2012 season ticket, despite my previous desire to do so.
why did naniwa participate then
he was free to decline his participation due to the format
he took a risk got the bad side of the deal due to bad skills and did not swallow the bitter pill which was explained to him before he participated
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On December 15 2011 16:07 Ninjahoe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 15:52 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 15:48 Ninjahoe wrote:
As I said before, I really hope MLG apologize to NaNiwa for lying about his Code S spot. If this statement is true then it's MLG who tricked NaNi, and all the fans.
I also want to say to everyone, because it seems like nobody realize - GOM chose to broadcast that match. They knew that he pulled probes, they knew how upset the koreans would be. Still the chose to put it up on the screen, instead of saying there was a delay, pause the game and go and tell nani that either he plays the game seriously, or gtfo.
It's all GOM who wanted this publicity, and their fault the koreans feel what they feel. How were they supposed to know before Naniwa probe rushed that he was going to probe rush? You really think they could see the probe, pause the game, and explain to everyone watching live that what they saw just didn't happen? They see what happens before showing it to the viewers, the probes were already out of naniwas base when they started broadcasting the game.
Don't see how that has to do with anything. It's not like anyone ever threw a game in the GSL by probe rushing before, so they were obviously not prepared for it. Even if they somehow could see what Naniwa was planning to do, still would be asking too much for them to make a decision like that in the few seconds they had during a LIVE broadcast.
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On December 15 2011 16:03 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 15:36 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:28 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:21 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:14 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 14:57 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:43 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 14:39 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:35 akalarry wrote:
[quote]
if naniwa gets code s seed from the mlg-gsl exchange program, did MLG pay and send 4 players and seed them directly into that tournaments championship bracket? What you're doing is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going *LA LA LA LA LA*. Yes, let's ignore that it was everyones belief that naniwa had qualified for code S. Him, his team, MLG and the foreign community as a whole. And that GOM never took any steps to correct this belief, until the day after the match between naniwa and nestea took place. And that 1) GOM originally called it a ban on twitter (until later removed), 2) according to some it was stated on their homepage (until later removed) 3) it was referred to as such by Tastosis 4) the rules for their cooperation with MLG implies it 5) Naniwa uncorrected referred to his spot on the media day at the blizzard cup. And that MLG themselves refer to the league exchange program for Providence: http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mc-mma-bomber-and-mvp-to-mlg-providenceAre you being serious? Yes and what you link to is completely untruthful. Bomber, MC, and MMA were placed in the champion bracket because of their past performance. MLG did NOT pay for MVP to travel, that was QxG, as you can confirm by looking in the thread announcing the partnership on TL. Further the exchange program said they were be seeded, which MVP was not. So you're just trusting MLG over GOM, which I suppose you're entitled to do. It appears to me that they both terminated the agreement for Providence, or it wasn't applicable for some reason, and for some suspicious reason this wasn't communicated, perhaps because it was assumed GOM would be willing to give one of its foreigner seeds out to the winner of Providence, so it wouldn't actually matter. Can you give me any sensible explanation for why GOM would wait from Providence and until the day after the naniwa vs nestea match before informaing anyone (including a player who was establishing himself in S Korea under the impression that he had a code S seed) of the fact that Naniwa did in fact not have a birth for code S? And why GOM themselves originally referred to what happened to naniwa as a ban, that tastosis referred to naniwa as having his qualification spot removed and that they didn't correct naniwa when he referred to his spot in code S in the blizzard cup media day interviews? To take GOM at their word, they have deliberately misled, or for a month failed to correct, a player, a team, MLG and the whole western community about whether Providence would provide a code S spot. Do you want to believe that about GOM? Do you not find it a tad more believable, that rather this is a story that is being spun in order to handle a controversial situation? most ridiculous argument ever. it's not GOM's obligation to find out what's happening in the western community. it's not even their first language anyways. this is like expecting MLG to frequent PlayXP and Thisisgame to find out how korean netizens are reacting. here's a better question. why did GOM never contact Naniwa to inform him about his code s seeding when they have done so for all the past participants in MLG who received one? here's an answer, because there was no code s seeding. No, this is like expecting MLG to react if their partner GOM announces on their homepage, that after having won GSL December, Jjakji gets an automatic seed into the winners bracket of the first coming MLG, yet that not being the case. I would certainly expect MLG to correct that misinformation. Why wouldn't they? But you think naniwa should have deduced that he in fact didn't have a birth for code S, since it was only the MLG site, admins at MLG and all major news sources that told him that he had received such a spot, and not infact GOM? except your comparison fails because GomTV.net is a english site. the equivalent comparison would be for expecting MLG to find out about the news on a korean site. funny you have the expectation that koreans should frequent english sites and keep up to date with the latest information in the western thing but not the other way around. that doesn't even make sense. why the hell would Gom contact Naniwa to tell him that he didn't have a code s spot if they didn't even know he thought he had a code s spot? You may not know this, but GOM.tv has several representatives that posts on Team Liquid. You may also not know that GOM.tv employs 5 english-speaking casters, as well as a translator. Maybe you've heard of them. Do you really want to argue that for a month, GOM was unaware that the whole western community was under the belief that naniwa had a code S seed that he won at Providence? An event at which two of their casters worked. GOM wouldn't necessarily contact Naniwa, though why wouldn't they, but certainly MLG and possibly TL and inform them that their information, that Naniwa has received a spot in code S, is in fact wrong. Do you not think that it is in GOMs interest to avoid misinformation? of course i know. but how often do they frequent this site? not often. do they look at every topic? obviously not and why should they? do MLGs have korean representatives frequenting korean websites? no. was naniwa's announcement to code S in big red letters at the top of the site? no. do you really want to argue that the reason why GOM never contacted Naniwa about his code S when they did for everyone else who got it is because they anticipated the moment that Naniwa would leave a game against Nestea thus forcing them to retract the fact that the code s spot was ever awarded? give me a break. don't you think it is in MLG's interest to avoid misinformation? see how easy I can turn that around? I'm sorry to ask, but where do you have the information of GOM contacting the previous qualifiers for code S through MLG? They were all Korean. What I'm arguing is that the reason that EVERYONE was under the impression that naniwa had a birth spot for code S, as stated by GOMs american partner and all major news sites after Providence, and the reason that NO ONE knew of GOMs change of plans until yesterday, is that it is based on GOM spinning a story. Afraid of the backlash of their decision, GOM tells a story about naniwa actually not receiving the spot in the first place. They made a decision, but they won't own up to it. To me, that seems a lot more reasonable than GOM being completely unaware of what their american partner and everyone involved in the western scene, including the casters working for them, took for granted. That Providence, like the previous MLG tournaments since Columbus, qualified one top 3 contender, not currently in Code S, for Code S. This is corroborated on several points, as pointed out in the quotes. I think it is necessary to take a massive leap of faith in order to make GOMs story make any sense.
If you followed MLG providence and participated in LR thread, it was clearly stated mulitiple times that Providence was not involved with the league exchange program. However, people were speculating Naniwa would get the seed because.. well why not? it also seemed like a perfect fit as Naniwa already going there. Also there was a report Naniwa getting the invite the Korea, though I wasn't really paying attention so I wasnt sure if it was blizzcup or 2012 GSL.
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Just wrote an email to GOM demanding a refund of my 100$ one year ticket. I would like to encourage people who think this is a unfair reaction based on a questionable moral foundation to do the same.
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On December 15 2011 16:15 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:03 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:36 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:28 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:21 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:14 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 14:57 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:43 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 14:39 m0ck wrote:[quote] What you're doing is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going *LA LA LA LA LA*. Yes, let's ignore that it was everyones belief that naniwa had qualified for code S. Him, his team, MLG and the foreign community as a whole. And that GOM never took any steps to correct this belief, until the day after the match between naniwa and nestea took place. And that 1) GOM originally called it a ban on twitter (until later removed), 2) according to some it was stated on their homepage (until later removed) 3) it was referred to as such by Tastosis 4) the rules for their cooperation with MLG implies it 5) Naniwa uncorrected referred to his spot on the media day at the blizzard cup. And that MLG themselves refer to the league exchange program for Providence: http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mc-mma-bomber-and-mvp-to-mlg-providenceAre you being serious? Yes and what you link to is completely untruthful. Bomber, MC, and MMA were placed in the champion bracket because of their past performance. MLG did NOT pay for MVP to travel, that was QxG, as you can confirm by looking in the thread announcing the partnership on TL. Further the exchange program said they were be seeded, which MVP was not. So you're just trusting MLG over GOM, which I suppose you're entitled to do. It appears to me that they both terminated the agreement for Providence, or it wasn't applicable for some reason, and for some suspicious reason this wasn't communicated, perhaps because it was assumed GOM would be willing to give one of its foreigner seeds out to the winner of Providence, so it wouldn't actually matter. Can you give me any sensible explanation for why GOM would wait from Providence and until the day after the naniwa vs nestea match before informaing anyone (including a player who was establishing himself in S Korea under the impression that he had a code S seed) of the fact that Naniwa did in fact not have a birth for code S? And why GOM themselves originally referred to what happened to naniwa as a ban, that tastosis referred to naniwa as having his qualification spot removed and that they didn't correct naniwa when he referred to his spot in code S in the blizzard cup media day interviews? To take GOM at their word, they have deliberately misled, or for a month failed to correct, a player, a team, MLG and the whole western community about whether Providence would provide a code S spot. Do you want to believe that about GOM? Do you not find it a tad more believable, that rather this is a story that is being spun in order to handle a controversial situation? most ridiculous argument ever. it's not GOM's obligation to find out what's happening in the western community. it's not even their first language anyways. this is like expecting MLG to frequent PlayXP and Thisisgame to find out how korean netizens are reacting. here's a better question. why did GOM never contact Naniwa to inform him about his code s seeding when they have done so for all the past participants in MLG who received one? here's an answer, because there was no code s seeding. No, this is like expecting MLG to react if their partner GOM announces on their homepage, that after having won GSL December, Jjakji gets an automatic seed into the winners bracket of the first coming MLG, yet that not being the case. I would certainly expect MLG to correct that misinformation. Why wouldn't they? But you think naniwa should have deduced that he in fact didn't have a birth for code S, since it was only the MLG site, admins at MLG and all major news sources that told him that he had received such a spot, and not infact GOM? except your comparison fails because GomTV.net is a english site. the equivalent comparison would be for expecting MLG to find out about the news on a korean site. funny you have the expectation that koreans should frequent english sites and keep up to date with the latest information in the western thing but not the other way around. that doesn't even make sense. why the hell would Gom contact Naniwa to tell him that he didn't have a code s spot if they didn't even know he thought he had a code s spot? You may not know this, but GOM.tv has several representatives that posts on Team Liquid. You may also not know that GOM.tv employs 5 english-speaking casters, as well as a translator. Maybe you've heard of them. Do you really want to argue that for a month, GOM was unaware that the whole western community was under the belief that naniwa had a code S seed that he won at Providence? An event at which two of their casters worked. GOM wouldn't necessarily contact Naniwa, though why wouldn't they, but certainly MLG and possibly TL and inform them that their information, that Naniwa has received a spot in code S, is in fact wrong. Do you not think that it is in GOMs interest to avoid misinformation? of course i know. but how often do they frequent this site? not often. do they look at every topic? obviously not and why should they? do MLGs have korean representatives frequenting korean websites? no. was naniwa's announcement to code S in big red letters at the top of the site? no. do you really want to argue that the reason why GOM never contacted Naniwa about his code S when they did for everyone else who got it is because they anticipated the moment that Naniwa would leave a game against Nestea thus forcing them to retract the fact that the code s spot was ever awarded? give me a break. don't you think it is in MLG's interest to avoid misinformation? see how easy I can turn that around? I'm sorry to ask, but where do you have the information of GOM contacting the previous qualifiers for code S through MLG? They were all Korean. What I'm arguing is that the reason that EVERYONE was under the impression that naniwa had a birth spot for code S, as stated by GOMs american partner and all major news sites after Providence, and the reason that NO ONE knew of GOMs change of plans until yesterday, is that it is based on GOM spinning a story. Afraid of the backlash of their decision, GOM tells a story about naniwa actually not receiving the spot in the first place. They made a decision, but they won't own up to it. To me, that seems a lot more reasonable than GOM being completely unaware of what their american partner and everyone involved in the western scene, including the casters working for them, took for granted. That Providence, like the previous MLG tournaments since Columbus, qualified one top 3 contender, not currently in Code S, for Code S. This is corroborated on several points, as pointed out in the quotes. I think it is necessary to take a massive leap of faith in order to make GOMs story make any sense. If you followed MLG providence and participated in LR thread, it was clearly stated mulitiple times that Providence was not involved with the league exchange program. However, people were speculating Naniwa would get the seed because.. well why not? it also seemed like a perfect fit as Naniwa already going there. Also there was a report Naniwa getting the invite the Korea, though I wasn't really paying attention so I wasnt sure if it was blizzcup or 2012 GSL.
I followed MLG providence and participated in the LR thread you lying it was not stated multiple times that providence was not involved with the league exchange program. Plz provide evidence for you claim. Also another thing to note alot of korean players when they were being interviewed sayd they were here to try to win a code s spot..
I got no idea why you saying such noncence
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On December 15 2011 16:18 MIKster wrote:
Just wrote an email to GOM demanding a refund of my 100$ one year ticket. I would like to encourage people who think this is a unfair reaction based on a questionable moral foundation to do the same.
I would say they are fair enough with the statement. I was not going to buy a yearly sub but I will buy a ticket during a free time now.
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Russian Federation1849 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2011 15:55 GreenFaction wrote:
I would like to say that failure to communicate clearly (if this indeed a fault of GOM's in this situation) does not in anyway revoke GOM's right to take whatever action they deem necessary for the preservation of the competition they aim to provide. Naniwa's action was inexcusable. It was disrespectful. It was unprofessional. It was frankly revolting. It is an action that really does threaten to undermine the competitive standards for the GSL, as GOM has indicated. I've always been impressed by the way players continue to show the best games, and are committed to showing their best games for the viewers, even when they aren't playing for much. Setting a precedent to the contrary is a threat to this standard.
Imagine if an NFL team simply ran out the clock on every possession during a game that didn't matter. Or just forfeited the game. I'm not talking about putting in 2nd stringers. (It would be different if Naniwa had tried an unconventional, or risky strategy. His was not a strategy.) Think of all the people who showed up to that game, paid money for a ticket to that game, planned on watching that game, got invested in it emotionally...Could we reasonably expect the NFL to take no action?
It's an analogy, and it's not perfect. But let's remember that GOM is on our side here. They are doing what they are doing to provide us, the viewers, the best experience. And frankly, I appreciate it. I wouldn't mind if I never had occasion to root against Naniwa again. Not that I won't enjoy doing so in the future...
A last thing I'd like to say. Something I sense a lot across these forums-and I see it creeping in here as well-which I would like to take this opportunity to caution against, is an "us" vs. "them" attitude in regards to so-called "foreigner" and Korean events/players/attitudes/culture/teams/companies. I mentioned it above, that GOM is on our side. This isn't a "we're non-Korean and they are" site, this is an international site. Everybody gets worked up, and everybody has biases that take time to work through. This community and Starcraft in general provide amazing opportunities for lots of people to open themselves up to new cultures, especially (as history would have it) that of Korea. I'm just saying: don't make it an us vs. them issue, please (on whatever side of the Korean border you're on). There's a bigger "we" here--the starcraft lovers.
Knew you were from the USA before I checked your location. No offence.
To be honest, what blows my mind more than anything is their choice - Idra and Sen. Well, of course we never know how many foreigners they asked if they could come, but I am sure not many, because who would reject a Code S seed? (except for Stephano, of course)
IdrA (MLG Orlando 4th, IEM Guangzhou)
Sen (Blizzcon Battle.net Invitational 3rd)
Are they really the best foreigners we could have had battling it in the Code S?
I like both, but really? I am not stating, I am asking, because I don't know very well.
Edit: Why not to hold a qualifier. Players don't stay at the top forever, some of them get better some of them on the contrary are not as good as they were.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Man what a mess...
So what is certain in all of this?
-There is conflicting information coming from MLG and GOM concerning the exchange program being in effect or not during MLG Providence.
- Information regarding the incident with Naniwa and the actions taken by GOM has come from various sources within GOM, and that information has changed over time (because of early misunderstandings or because they changed their mind, that is not certain).
- The general consensus ever since MLG Providence has been that Naniwa has earned his Code S seed through his placement in the tournament.
I really can't think of much more that I am truly certain to be correct.
Uncertainties:
- Was MLG informed or aware of that MLG Providence was no longer (or never was) part of the exchange program deal?
- If MLG knew about this, why didn't they inform anyone else? Or did they?
From all the talk and links and arguments this simply isn't clear at all. Some information may be hinting at what may be the case, but there's nothing certain.There needs to be an official announcement from MLG about it, and if they weren't informed then GOM needs to try again in cleaning up this mess.
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Thank you for explaining the whole situation 
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Will Sen even take the Code S seed? He has a ton of obligations to his team for TeSL, and he has to play for them every weekend. (He basically carries his team.)
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On December 15 2011 16:18 MIKster wrote:
Just wrote an email to GOM demanding a refund of my 100$ one year ticket. I would like to encourage people who think this is a unfair reaction based on a questionable moral foundation to do the same.
this hadnt to do with morality
in the end what they did is, they exercized their right to terminate according to law
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On December 15 2011 16:18 MIKster wrote:
Just wrote an email to GOM demanding a refund of my 100$ one year ticket. I would like to encourage people who think this is a unfair reaction based on a questionable moral foundation to do the same.
questionable moral? if I was GOM or MLG, I would've banned Naniwa for life for displaying such disrespect to the organizers and players publicly during a game
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On December 15 2011 16:15 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:03 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:36 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:28 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:21 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:14 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 14:57 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:43 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 14:39 m0ck wrote:[quote] What you're doing is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going *LA LA LA LA LA*. Yes, let's ignore that it was everyones belief that naniwa had qualified for code S. Him, his team, MLG and the foreign community as a whole. And that GOM never took any steps to correct this belief, until the day after the match between naniwa and nestea took place. And that 1) GOM originally called it a ban on twitter (until later removed), 2) according to some it was stated on their homepage (until later removed) 3) it was referred to as such by Tastosis 4) the rules for their cooperation with MLG implies it 5) Naniwa uncorrected referred to his spot on the media day at the blizzard cup. And that MLG themselves refer to the league exchange program for Providence: http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mc-mma-bomber-and-mvp-to-mlg-providenceAre you being serious? Yes and what you link to is completely untruthful. Bomber, MC, and MMA were placed in the champion bracket because of their past performance. MLG did NOT pay for MVP to travel, that was QxG, as you can confirm by looking in the thread announcing the partnership on TL. Further the exchange program said they were be seeded, which MVP was not. So you're just trusting MLG over GOM, which I suppose you're entitled to do. It appears to me that they both terminated the agreement for Providence, or it wasn't applicable for some reason, and for some suspicious reason this wasn't communicated, perhaps because it was assumed GOM would be willing to give one of its foreigner seeds out to the winner of Providence, so it wouldn't actually matter. Can you give me any sensible explanation for why GOM would wait from Providence and until the day after the naniwa vs nestea match before informaing anyone (including a player who was establishing himself in S Korea under the impression that he had a code S seed) of the fact that Naniwa did in fact not have a birth for code S? And why GOM themselves originally referred to what happened to naniwa as a ban, that tastosis referred to naniwa as having his qualification spot removed and that they didn't correct naniwa when he referred to his spot in code S in the blizzard cup media day interviews? To take GOM at their word, they have deliberately misled, or for a month failed to correct, a player, a team, MLG and the whole western community about whether Providence would provide a code S spot. Do you want to believe that about GOM? Do you not find it a tad more believable, that rather this is a story that is being spun in order to handle a controversial situation? most ridiculous argument ever. it's not GOM's obligation to find out what's happening in the western community. it's not even their first language anyways. this is like expecting MLG to frequent PlayXP and Thisisgame to find out how korean netizens are reacting. here's a better question. why did GOM never contact Naniwa to inform him about his code s seeding when they have done so for all the past participants in MLG who received one? here's an answer, because there was no code s seeding. No, this is like expecting MLG to react if their partner GOM announces on their homepage, that after having won GSL December, Jjakji gets an automatic seed into the winners bracket of the first coming MLG, yet that not being the case. I would certainly expect MLG to correct that misinformation. Why wouldn't they? But you think naniwa should have deduced that he in fact didn't have a birth for code S, since it was only the MLG site, admins at MLG and all major news sources that told him that he had received such a spot, and not infact GOM? except your comparison fails because GomTV.net is a english site. the equivalent comparison would be for expecting MLG to find out about the news on a korean site. funny you have the expectation that koreans should frequent english sites and keep up to date with the latest information in the western thing but not the other way around. that doesn't even make sense. why the hell would Gom contact Naniwa to tell him that he didn't have a code s spot if they didn't even know he thought he had a code s spot? You may not know this, but GOM.tv has several representatives that posts on Team Liquid. You may also not know that GOM.tv employs 5 english-speaking casters, as well as a translator. Maybe you've heard of them. Do you really want to argue that for a month, GOM was unaware that the whole western community was under the belief that naniwa had a code S seed that he won at Providence? An event at which two of their casters worked. GOM wouldn't necessarily contact Naniwa, though why wouldn't they, but certainly MLG and possibly TL and inform them that their information, that Naniwa has received a spot in code S, is in fact wrong. Do you not think that it is in GOMs interest to avoid misinformation? of course i know. but how often do they frequent this site? not often. do they look at every topic? obviously not and why should they? do MLGs have korean representatives frequenting korean websites? no. was naniwa's announcement to code S in big red letters at the top of the site? no. do you really want to argue that the reason why GOM never contacted Naniwa about his code S when they did for everyone else who got it is because they anticipated the moment that Naniwa would leave a game against Nestea thus forcing them to retract the fact that the code s spot was ever awarded? give me a break. don't you think it is in MLG's interest to avoid misinformation? see how easy I can turn that around? I'm sorry to ask, but where do you have the information of GOM contacting the previous qualifiers for code S through MLG? They were all Korean. What I'm arguing is that the reason that EVERYONE was under the impression that naniwa had a birth spot for code S, as stated by GOMs american partner and all major news sites after Providence, and the reason that NO ONE knew of GOMs change of plans until yesterday, is that it is based on GOM spinning a story. Afraid of the backlash of their decision, GOM tells a story about naniwa actually not receiving the spot in the first place. They made a decision, but they won't own up to it. To me, that seems a lot more reasonable than GOM being completely unaware of what their american partner and everyone involved in the western scene, including the casters working for them, took for granted. That Providence, like the previous MLG tournaments since Columbus, qualified one top 3 contender, not currently in Code S, for Code S. This is corroborated on several points, as pointed out in the quotes. I think it is necessary to take a massive leap of faith in order to make GOMs story make any sense. If you followed MLG providence and participated in LR thread, it was clearly stated mulitiple times that Providence was not involved with the league exchange program. However, people were speculating Naniwa would get the seed because.. well why not? it also seemed like a perfect fit as Naniwa already going there. Also there was a report Naniwa getting the invite the Korea, though I wasn't really paying attention so I wasnt sure if it was blizzcup or 2012 GSL.
Well, I think it's fair to say that it was established at the time, that naniwa recieved a code S spot. I also seem to remember it being talked about by MLG at the time of the tournament, certainly through the update feed, but I could be wrong. The same goes for my hypothesis of course. It could be MLG is responsible for a massive cluster-fuck or that GOM later changed their mind about the exchange-program but failed to inform anyone. This is just speculation (but I would say, common sense).
+ Show Spoiler +credits go to woot_toow on reddit, he was the one that compiled this and did all the effort. I'm simply cross posting because it's highly valuable to this thread. From MLG own site news: http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/news/naniwas-ascensionUltimately he dropped the following four games, and despite not being crowned champion, Naniwa has presented one of the most captivating weeks imaginable, both in and out of the game. In the last week, Naniwa has rage quit of of a GSL match, flown half-way around the world, defeated the two most successful Korean Starcraft 2 players back-to-back, sparked a rivalry with Nestea, been the center of controversy in a rematch against Nestea, let a National Championship slip through his fingers and earned a seat in Code S. http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/news/going-out-with-a-bang-mlg-providence-starcraft-2-recapOver the last few months, Naniwa has been training hard over in Korea to take his game to the next level, and his hard work appeared to pay off in Providence. The 2nd Place finish was good enough to earn him a Code S spot, so keep an eye on this MLG Champion as he goes toe-to-toe with the world's best during the offseason. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/top-5-stories-from-mlg-providenceNaniwa, however, stayed focused on his goal. Amidst swirls of tabloid drama and misguided quotes, Naniwa kept his concentration on the task at hand. When his turn to enter the bracket finally rolled around, the Swedish Protoss defeated Nestea for the second time that weekend, and followed the feat with wins over Huk and DongRaeGu. In the end Naniwa failed to seal the deal as he lost four straight games against Leenock in the Grand Finals, but appeared to be a man with a renewed determination and a refined playstyle. With the pedigree Naniwa displayed over the weekend, it's hard not to be excited about Naniwa's 2012 prospects in Code S and at Major League Gaming Events. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mlg-and-the-gsl-create-groundbreaking-player-exchange-programPro Circuit Players Competing in the GSL At MLG Columbus, the Top 3 non-Korean finishers will each be placed into GSL Code A. At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, within the Top 3, regardless of country of origin, who does not already have Code S status. Code S status will not be awarded if all of the players placing 1st-3rd already have Code S Status. Code A status will be awarded to the next three highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, or not awarded at all, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player. From Complexity, his team at the time: http://www.complexitygaming.com/news/3270/Be sure to watch the GSL's Code S tournament as Naniwa secured himself a spot thanks to the MLG/GSL exchange program. http://esfiworld.com/sc2/news/naniwa-secures-top-3-finish-victory-over-hukNaniwa was able to secure a huge victory and guarantee at least a Top 3 finish in Providence. That placement will gives him a chance to secure Code S and continues the run of world class players that Naniwa has defeated over the course of the championship weekend in Providence. Edit: http://myeg.net/team/surprises-and-sadness-mlg-providence-day-3/NaNiwa has finally reestablished himself firmly as one of the world’s top Protoss – and earned himself a Code S spot to boot. -- Edit2: If by any change MLG Providence didn't provide Naniwa a Code S spot, then MLG really messed up in making news about it, not one but at least 3. Until today everyone though that Naniwa got that spot, from MLG employees to GSL casters, to his previous team, to the player himself! : "The two edits noted are from woot_toow, the * post edit was because the formatting didnt copy over well"
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On December 15 2011 16:25 babylon wrote:
Will Sen even take the Code S seed? He has a ton of obligations to his team for TeSL, and he has to play for them every weekend. (He basically carries his team.)
he will probably decline
who cares about gsl really when you can play tesl
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On December 15 2011 16:20 HappyChris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:15 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 16:03 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:36 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:28 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:21 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:14 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 14:57 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:43 diophan wrote:
[quote]
Yes and what you link to is completely untruthful. Bomber, MC, and MMA were placed in the champion bracket because of their past performance. MLG did NOT pay for MVP to travel, that was QxG, as you can confirm by looking in the thread announcing the partnership on TL. Further the exchange program said they were be seeded, which MVP was not.
So you're just trusting MLG over GOM, which I suppose you're entitled to do. It appears to me that they both terminated the agreement for Providence, or it wasn't applicable for some reason, and for some suspicious reason this wasn't communicated, perhaps because it was assumed GOM would be willing to give one of its foreigner seeds out to the winner of Providence, so it wouldn't actually matter. Can you give me any sensible explanation for why GOM would wait from Providence and until the day after the naniwa vs nestea match before informaing anyone (including a player who was establishing himself in S Korea under the impression that he had a code S seed) of the fact that Naniwa did in fact not have a birth for code S? And why GOM themselves originally referred to what happened to naniwa as a ban, that tastosis referred to naniwa as having his qualification spot removed and that they didn't correct naniwa when he referred to his spot in code S in the blizzard cup media day interviews? To take GOM at their word, they have deliberately misled, or for a month failed to correct, a player, a team, MLG and the whole western community about whether Providence would provide a code S spot. Do you want to believe that about GOM? Do you not find it a tad more believable, that rather this is a story that is being spun in order to handle a controversial situation? most ridiculous argument ever. it's not GOM's obligation to find out what's happening in the western community. it's not even their first language anyways. this is like expecting MLG to frequent PlayXP and Thisisgame to find out how korean netizens are reacting. here's a better question. why did GOM never contact Naniwa to inform him about his code s seeding when they have done so for all the past participants in MLG who received one? here's an answer, because there was no code s seeding. No, this is like expecting MLG to react if their partner GOM announces on their homepage, that after having won GSL December, Jjakji gets an automatic seed into the winners bracket of the first coming MLG, yet that not being the case. I would certainly expect MLG to correct that misinformation. Why wouldn't they? But you think naniwa should have deduced that he in fact didn't have a birth for code S, since it was only the MLG site, admins at MLG and all major news sources that told him that he had received such a spot, and not infact GOM? except your comparison fails because GomTV.net is a english site. the equivalent comparison would be for expecting MLG to find out about the news on a korean site. funny you have the expectation that koreans should frequent english sites and keep up to date with the latest information in the western thing but not the other way around. that doesn't even make sense. why the hell would Gom contact Naniwa to tell him that he didn't have a code s spot if they didn't even know he thought he had a code s spot? You may not know this, but GOM.tv has several representatives that posts on Team Liquid. You may also not know that GOM.tv employs 5 english-speaking casters, as well as a translator. Maybe you've heard of them. Do you really want to argue that for a month, GOM was unaware that the whole western community was under the belief that naniwa had a code S seed that he won at Providence? An event at which two of their casters worked. GOM wouldn't necessarily contact Naniwa, though why wouldn't they, but certainly MLG and possibly TL and inform them that their information, that Naniwa has received a spot in code S, is in fact wrong. Do you not think that it is in GOMs interest to avoid misinformation? of course i know. but how often do they frequent this site? not often. do they look at every topic? obviously not and why should they? do MLGs have korean representatives frequenting korean websites? no. was naniwa's announcement to code S in big red letters at the top of the site? no. do you really want to argue that the reason why GOM never contacted Naniwa about his code S when they did for everyone else who got it is because they anticipated the moment that Naniwa would leave a game against Nestea thus forcing them to retract the fact that the code s spot was ever awarded? give me a break. don't you think it is in MLG's interest to avoid misinformation? see how easy I can turn that around? I'm sorry to ask, but where do you have the information of GOM contacting the previous qualifiers for code S through MLG? They were all Korean. What I'm arguing is that the reason that EVERYONE was under the impression that naniwa had a birth spot for code S, as stated by GOMs american partner and all major news sites after Providence, and the reason that NO ONE knew of GOMs change of plans until yesterday, is that it is based on GOM spinning a story. Afraid of the backlash of their decision, GOM tells a story about naniwa actually not receiving the spot in the first place. They made a decision, but they won't own up to it. To me, that seems a lot more reasonable than GOM being completely unaware of what their american partner and everyone involved in the western scene, including the casters working for them, took for granted. That Providence, like the previous MLG tournaments since Columbus, qualified one top 3 contender, not currently in Code S, for Code S. This is corroborated on several points, as pointed out in the quotes. I think it is necessary to take a massive leap of faith in order to make GOMs story make any sense. If you followed MLG providence and participated in LR thread, it was clearly stated mulitiple times that Providence was not involved with the league exchange program. However, people were speculating Naniwa would get the seed because.. well why not? it also seemed like a perfect fit as Naniwa already going there. Also there was a report Naniwa getting the invite the Korea, though I wasn't really paying attention so I wasnt sure if it was blizzcup or 2012 GSL. I followed MLG providence and participated in the LR thread you lying it was not stated multiple times that providence was not involved with the league exchange program. Plz provide evidence for you claim. Also another thing to note alot of korean players when they were being interviewed sayd they were here to try to win a code s spot.. I got no idea why you saying such noncence
please, stop being emotional. I have read it couple times and I remember vividly how people were discussing whether Naniwa would get it. Why would I lie when people can search around to find the truth? I"m not that stupid.
As for the proof, I'll try to find it.. but as you know, it is a massive thread that is the reason I didnt orignially include quotes from the thread. Though I will spend maybe 5-10 mintue searching around.
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Why do people who bring up the league exchange thing always quote one side and completely ignore that the MLG side wasn't exactly fulfilled itself? MVP had to fight his way through the open bracket guys, this actually happened. Didn't the league exchange rules say Koreans would be seeded?
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EPT
